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BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011

McGrath of Harlow 06 Jun 11 - 01:47 PM
The Sandman 06 Jun 11 - 03:25 PM
Teribus 06 Jun 11 - 07:02 PM
akenaton 07 Jun 11 - 03:04 AM
The Sandman 07 Jun 11 - 09:31 AM
Teribus 07 Jun 11 - 11:32 AM
The Sandman 07 Jun 11 - 12:39 PM
The Sandman 07 Jun 11 - 12:41 PM
akenaton 07 Jun 11 - 03:26 PM
akenaton 07 Jun 11 - 03:44 PM
Teribus 07 Jun 11 - 05:31 PM
akenaton 07 Jun 11 - 05:50 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Jun 11 - 06:05 PM
gnu 07 Jun 11 - 07:06 PM
bobad 07 Jun 11 - 07:15 PM
Ron Davies 07 Jun 11 - 11:26 PM
Teribus 08 Jun 11 - 12:09 AM
akenaton 08 Jun 11 - 03:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 11 - 04:29 AM
Ron Davies 08 Jun 11 - 07:11 AM
Ron Davies 08 Jun 11 - 08:20 AM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Jun 11 - 08:44 AM
The Sandman 08 Jun 11 - 05:23 PM
GUEST,999 08 Jun 11 - 05:47 PM
GUEST,Jon 08 Jun 11 - 06:33 PM
Ron Davies 08 Jun 11 - 11:42 PM
Little Hawk 08 Jun 11 - 11:53 PM
Ron Davies 08 Jun 11 - 11:57 PM
Ron Davies 09 Jun 11 - 12:13 AM
The Sandman 09 Jun 11 - 11:20 AM
GUEST,Lighter 09 Jun 11 - 02:27 PM
The Sandman 09 Jun 11 - 05:40 PM
Teribus 09 Jun 11 - 07:09 PM
Ron Davies 09 Jun 11 - 10:20 PM
Ron Davies 09 Jun 11 - 10:28 PM
akenaton 10 Jun 11 - 03:42 AM
Ron Davies 10 Jun 11 - 08:19 AM
Teribus 10 Jun 11 - 03:00 PM
Teribus 11 Jun 11 - 02:31 AM
akenaton 11 Jun 11 - 02:54 AM
Teribus 11 Jun 11 - 07:01 AM
Ron Davies 11 Jun 11 - 09:09 AM
akenaton 21 Jun 11 - 07:24 AM
akenaton 21 Jun 11 - 07:47 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 21 Jun 11 - 09:46 AM
Charley Noble 21 Jun 11 - 10:19 AM
pdq 21 Jun 11 - 10:37 AM
Ron Davies 21 Jun 11 - 10:33 PM
akenaton 22 Jun 11 - 03:53 PM
Ron Davies 22 Jun 11 - 09:10 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 01:47 PM

I can't see much indication that anyone taking sides on this has much regard for the opinion of the people of Libya, which do not seem at all clear.

Libya is made up of three regions which have significant differences, the former Tripolitania, with Tripoli as its capital and the former Cyrenaica, with Benghazi as its capital, and the former Fezzan, in the southern desert. Clearly there is support for the rebellion in Benghazi and also in Misrata, but whether there is support in the rest of the country seems unclear.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 03:25 PM

Economy

The Economy of Libya is centrally planned and follows Gadaffi's Socialist ideals. It depends primarily upon revenues from the petroleum sector, which contributes practically all export earnings and over half of GDP. These oil revenues and a small population have given Libya the highest nominal per capita GDP in Africa.[29] Since 2000, Libya has recorded favourable growth rates with an estimated 10.6% growth of GDP in 2010.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 07:02 PM

"he was good enough for the weSt for 40 years"

Where on earth did this fiction come from? Libya was regarded as a pariah state for most of those forty years?

Diference between the kleptocracy of Gaddafi and Mugabe and the damage done to each country? Gaddafi had oil Mugabe did not, so the latter in his plundering of his nations riches killed off the goose that laid the golden eggs in Zimbabwe and turned the country into the nightmare it now is. Gaddafi just dumbed the populace down and isolated them from the rest of the world, while he plundered the oil revenues and enforced his "Investment Fund" his son was on, oh how much was his yearly allowance again? £170,000,000 - nice pay if you can get it - what was the average yearly wage of any libyan worker?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 03:04 AM

Every country has its dissidents Teribus.....do you really subscribe to the idea of powerful countries enforcing regime change, just because it is in their interests to do so?

The UN charter specifically forbids forced regime change.....for very good reasons.

Where did you get your hands on Said Gadaffi's payslip?
and how do you contrast the salaries and bonuses of the financial bosses with the amount that the unemployed or those on the minimum wage are expected to live on?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 09:31 AM

yes very true, why are the west not invading ireland, after all the government reduced the dole by 8 euros a week, but allowed the minister, who wasted 53 million on useless electronic voting machines, martin cullen to get a fat pension.
Martin Cullen will receive a severance payment of nearly €80,000 (per today's Irish Independent):

PLUS a salary of nearly €200,000 for the remainder of 2010, and nearly 100K for 2011;

PLUS a combined TD and Minister pension of €106,000 FOR LIFE! (per Vincent Brown last night)

MC has only been a TD since 1987.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 11:32 AM

"....do you really subscribe to the idea of powerful countries enforcing regime change."

Depends upon the circumstances:

As per Iraq in 2003 under Saddam Hussein yes

Libya is a differnent kettle of fish - it's the people there who wish to implement regime change. The UN; NATO; Arab League & GCC are doing in Libya today what should have been done to help the Iraqi Shia Arabs in Southern Iraq in 1991, in the aftermath of Desert Storm.

Salaries and bonuses of "the financial bosses" and CEO's of multi-Nationals are different entirely to the pocket money doled out to Gaddafi's sons. The Salaries and bonuses of the formed are "performance" related the £170,000,000 per year is just his cut of the proceeds of a massive and ongoing kleptocracy that has been in operation for the best part of forty years. Par for the course in the Arab world though, there was that epitome of good leadership Yasser Arafat who syphoned off billions of what was supposed to be aid for his destitute and impoverished Palestinian people. the Tunisian ex-President who loaded up a transport aircraft with gold bullion before he legged it for the border. Hosni Mubarak of Egypt has stashed away millions and is now under investigation for it.

I still think that the comparative ratios would still end up as astronomical for the Gaddafi:Libyan Worker than for Bank Boss/CEO:Jobless/Min Wage in the UK.

"...but allowed the minister,..."

Ah the magic words - you are talking about a politician. Now where on earth did you ever get the idea that they do anything to improve the lot anybody before ensuring first that they themselves are well provided for - it's a club and the star prize is when you get elected or better still "appointed" to the big club in Brussels.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 12:39 PM

Libya is a differnent kettle of fish - it's the people there who wish to implement regime change.
how do you know this have you been there, or are you forming this view from western propoganda.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 12:41 PM

Par for the course in the Arab world though, there was that epitome of good leadership Yasser Arafat who syphoned off billions of what was supposed to be aid for his destitute and impoverished Palestinian people. the Tunisian ex-President who loaded up a transport aircraft with gold bullion before he legged it for the border. Hosni Mubarak of Egypt has stashed away millions and is now under investigation for it.
yes, so why didnt the west invade these countries, the inconsistency is so obvious


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 03:26 PM

Fortunately Teribus, you are not in a position yet to sanction regime change.....but what about the UN resolutions, International Law etc, the backbone of our "liberal democracy".....are they too, to depend on circumstance?

The disparity between £17 billion?? to £50 and £6 million to £50, makes little difference to the man or woman on £50...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 03:44 PM

I just noticed the bit from T about Banking bosses £million salaries and bonuses being "performance related".......who says that its only Americans who dont understand irony?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 05:31 PM

GSS " it's the people there who wish to implement regime change.
how do you know this have you been there"


Care to tell me what is was that the Libyan civilians who were protesting about when they were gunned down by Gaddafi's troops and mercenaries in February this year? "Longer beds and more time in them" perhaps?? Or do you doubt that they were gunned down at all?? Unfortunately too many corpses and too many eye-witness statements from both sides to refute what happened.

"so why didnt the west invade these countries, the inconsistency is so obvious"

Tunisia - The Tunisian Army ensured that the threat to the civilian population was never realised, so no request from the Arab League was necessary.

Egypt - Same thing as in Tunisia, no request from the Arab League to act.

Palestine - Yasser Arafat was just a crook just like his Uncle before him who preyed of the Arabs of Palestine. Basically the non-Palestinian Arabs in the states surrounding Palestine could not give two hoots for Palestine or its people.

Syria - No request for international intervention from the Arab League or the GCC. Probably due to Syria's alliance with Iran - nobody knows where that can of worms would go if anybody intervened. The US has requested UN for sanctions against the Ba'athist regime in Syria.

Yemen - No request for international intervention from the Arab League or GCC because the GCC is already involved in resolving the situation.

Bahrain - No request for international intervention as Saudi Arabia and the GCC were called in by the rulers of Bahrain. "Protests" in Bahrain from "guest workers" mask a destabilisation campaign instigated by Iran.

Libya - The ruler of Libya declared war on his own people, and when his own troops refused to carry out his orders, he engaged the services of mercenary troops to do his bidding. Libya's neighbours were both in a state of turmoil so the Arab League and the GCC took the matter to the UN Security Council and asked them to act.

See any differences? I most certainly can.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 05:50 PM

Well you've made your case T ....but made hard work of it.

Isn't the most obvious difference, that Libya has oil?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 06:05 PM

Nobody would dispute that there are a lot of Libyans who want rid of Gaddafi. What is open to question is whether there is any evidence that most Libyans feel that way.

It may be true that they do, but it is wrong to take it for granted that it true and that the rebels represent the majority.

Only in the circumstances of a ceasefire could it be possible to try to find ways of finding out the truth about that kind of thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 07:06 PM

Libya/oil. BP was just setting up ops (I know the guy that was in charge of ops there.) Quacky was driving a hard bargain. He ain't negotiating with the Brits anymore is he? And, the rest of the Arab nations?... well, the Brits, Germans, French, Dutch, Yanks, Russians... they don't like getting fucked over eh? As for them not having any oil??? Yeah, right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 07:15 PM

"What is open to question is whether there is any evidence that most Libyans feel that way."

If you've been following the events from a news source that has reporters in the field it is pretty clear that a large majority of Libyans want to see an end to the regime of Gaddafi and his family. Do you not think that if Gaddafi had the support that he claims to have he would not be allowing reporters the freedom to report to the world from among them instead of orchestrating support rallies and broadcasting them on state controlled tv?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 11:26 PM

"whether most LIbyans feel that way."

The reason this seems to be a question is the same reason it would have been a question in the 3rd Reich.

Negotiation with a vicious tyrant who considers himself to embody the state-- and who has in fact centralized all power in himself--- has already been tried before.    Not a happy outcome. Perhaps you recall this.    Or perhaps you don't. In which case you need to do more reading.

Unsurprisingly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 12:09 AM

"Isn't the most obvious difference, that Libya has oil?"

Which Libya sold to the countries of Western Europe, his main customers were Italy, Germany & France. Are you saying that NATO schemed away to attack Libya to "steal" Libyan oil in the same way as people claimed that Iraq was all about the USA "stealing" Iraq's oil? We all know that the latter most certainly did not happen, and at the end of all this I would predict that Italy, Germany & France will still buy their oil and gas from Libya and pay market price for it (Same as the US does for what token amounts of oil it buys from Iraq).


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 03:49 AM

For gods sake Teribus, who said anything about "stealing oil"?
Read gnu's post.
Access to oil rights is the reason we have been involved in this pantomime, whilst all around protesters are shot...... and ignored by the West.
Today, the West again told Assad what a naughty boy he was and how he must stop being horrid to his people!

Sanctions?.....no
Military action.....of course not!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 04:29 AM

No sanctions only because Russia would use its veto.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 07:11 AM

The issue here, as even our charmingly naive friends who oppose Western involvement in Libya should know is how much power Gadhafi will continue to exercise over his own people.

Please name one vicious tyrant, preferably one who has been in power for about 40 years, considers himself to embody the state, and has had the delightful habit of sending assassination squads all over the world to deal with dissenters, who has been willing to give up a portion of his power over his own people.

Furthermore, the recent experiences of Tunesia and Egypt are object lessons to Gadhafi of what happens to a ruler when he is in fact willing to cede some of his power to independent voices.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 08:20 AM

"should know, is"


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 08:44 AM

Pinochet was only in power for 17 years before he stepped down in 1990, with another eight years as Commander-in-Chief, but otherwise he fits the description Ron gives quite well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 05:23 PM

Please name one vicious tyrant, preferably one who has been in power for about 40 years, considers himself to embody the state, and has had the delightful habit of sending assassination squads all over the world to deal with dissenters, who has been willing to give up a portion of his power over his own people.
   most of the usa presidents since the second world war, through the CIA.
AND the macCarthy era, ALL THE PEOPLE WHO WERE NOT ALLOWED TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY,deprived of the abilty to work[robeson seeger etc] the undermining of Cuba, the undemocratic overthrow of Allende, the support of Pinochet., the involvement in Vietnam, all this in the name of freedom, but at the same time boosting their economy, through armament sales
its about time America stopped acting as a world police force, and stopped this rubbish about the land of the free and freedom and democracy


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 05:47 PM

ALL wars are fought for freedom (or to oppose tyrany. Else, how would one attract soldiers?

"Attention, ladies and gentlemen, we need some soldiers to go fight and possibly die for their country. It is in the name of freedom and democracy!"


or


"Attention, ladies and gentlemen, we need some soldiers to go fight and possibly die for their country. It is in the name of an oil company or multinational!"

Simple sales technique. WHICH ad would YOU run?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 06:33 PM

I think "justice" is a big one, 999.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 11:42 PM

"most of the USA presidents"

Another delightful poster with a serious reading problem--very common on the Left, it appears.

One person for 40 years--and that would be which president?

Assassination squads all over the world to kill dissidents from his own country.    Details please.


All the power centralized in himself.    As I recall there are such things in the US as Congress and the judiciary. Please tell us how much power--separate from the Brother Leader---any legislative or judicial body has in Libya.

Perhaps the poster should return to folk music.   Perhaps he has some inkling of that.

His post is however wonderful comic relief--and yet another sterling example of why folkies have such a enviable reputation in the wider world for brilliant strategic thinking.

Please, give us more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 11:53 PM

If it's comic relief you're after, try this:

Grrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 11:57 PM

Pinochet "embodied the state".    Evidence please.

And Gaddafi's obvious desire for "victory or martyrdom"   tells us all we need to know about his flexibility--except to touchingly naive posters who desperately want to believe he is just another reasonable person unjustifiably attacked by--who else--the evil West.

Certainly is fascinating that the people opposing Western involvement in Libya are such world-class masters of mewling piteously that the West always supports tyrants.   Yet when the West attacks a tyrant, suddenly that's not what said people wanted after all.

The suspicion arises that these posters don't even know what they themselves want--except to be card-carrying members of the "ain't it awful" school.

Whatever it is, "ain't it awful".


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 12:13 AM

Constitution instituted in Chile in 1980 prescribed an 8-year term--which Pinochet held to.

Please tell us about the Libyan constitution and what term of power has been allotted by it to the Brother Leader.   What is the Brother Leader's official term of office?   And please enlighten us as to your secret sources which indicate that at the end of that term of office, he will be willing to step down--for somebody other than a member of his own family.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 11:20 AM

pinochet seized power with american help, and overthrew a democraticaly elected person Allende.
that is fact RON,


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 02:27 PM

Sorry, but Pinochet didn't "seize power with American help" any more than "the CIA murdered Diem."

The US was glad that Allende was gone and did nothing to remove Pinochet once he was in control, but the US did not put him there. Ambitious tyrants like Pinochet are capable of launching their own successful coups - as did Col. Gaddafi. As far as the US was concerned, once he was in power, Pinochet was the lesser evil compared to the possibility of a powerful Cuban-Soviet influence on Chile at just the time the US had been forced from Vietnam. The former KGB archivist Vasili Mitrokhin has written that Allende was in fact on the KGB payroll. See C. M. Andrew & V. Mitrokhin, "The World was Going Our Way" (N.Y.: Simon & Schuster, 2005), p. 80ff.

International politics makes strange bedfellows. But the Cold War's over, and it's time to give up the propaganda myths.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 05:40 PM

lighter, cods wallop.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 07:09 PM

"Good Soldier Schweik" aka Dick Miles - at least "lighter" provides references to check, you don't. If there is anybody coming out with "cods-wallop" it's you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 10:20 PM

I can't tell you how surprised I am that though I pointed out that Pinochet had voluntarily stepped down when he lost an election, none of our stalwart opponents of Western involvement in Libya has told us about Gaddafi's term of office, and when elections might be scheduled that would result in his leaving power.

Gee, I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that Gaddafi will never have to stand for election.   Since that's the way the regime is set up.

And there is a reason Pinochet was willing to step down:    he cared--a lot--what the West (and the Pope) thought.

Now please tell us whose opinion-- outside his own--the Brother Leader cares for.

Clue: it's not the West.   Nor the Pope.



And I'm still waiting for the giant intellect which goes under the rubric of "Good Soldier"   to tell us:   

1)    which US president ruled for 40 years

2)   which American dissenters were assassinated by the CIA

3) how much power the legislature and judiciary have in Libya to be independent of the Brother Leader.


Seems like it may be a long wait.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 10:28 PM

5 Oct 1988:   Referendum lost by Pinochet. (Wiki)

I will settle down to wait for answers to my questions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jun 11 - 03:42 AM

Ron...you put too much faith in "electoral democracy".....Just take a look at the leaders it has given us in the last few decades.

Either creatures of the system, or psycopathic dangerous egomaniacs.
Usually both!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Jun 11 - 08:19 AM

"creatures of the system",    "psychopathic"---sure is a good thing we are so careful to steer away from boilerplate purple prose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jun 11 - 03:00 PM

Now let me see - "psycopathic dangerous egomaniac."

Who does that put in mind of, only he never stood for election and hung around for 40 odd years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jun 11 - 02:31 AM

Hi there Akenaton, I've just remembered who that "psycopathic dangerous egomaniac." was. The self-styled King of Africa" Muammar Gaddafi.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jun 11 - 02:54 AM

Yes T.....but we are about to replace him by something so much better aren't we?

Just like Iraq.

Which has a "parliament" divided on racial,tribal and religious lines, a non existant infrastructure and hudreded of thousands of dead Iraqis,(soon to be Libyans, when the civil war kicks in).


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jun 11 - 07:01 AM

"but we are about to replace him by something so much better aren't we?"

WE?? "WE" are not going to replace him with anything, that will entirely up to the people of Libya to do, that is their affair and has nothing whatsoever to do with us.

IRAQ

"Which has a "parliament" divided on racial,tribal and religious lines, a non existant infrastructure and hudreded of thousands of dead Iraqis,(soon to be Libyans, when the civil war kicks in)."

So the Iraqi Parliament is divided on racial, tribal and religious lines - WOW what a surprise, how amazing, but now you come to mention it, I can think of loads of Parliaments in countries all over the world that are - GUESS WHAT - divided on racial, tribal and religious lines.

Non-existent infrastructure?? You mean fewer Presidential Palaces?
Income per capita before Saddam took over $12,000+ (1978)
Income per capita when Saddam fell $507 (2003)
Income per capita today $3,800

Electricity Generation?
2002 - 27.3 bnkWh
2004 - 32.6 bnkWh
2011 - 46.4 bnKwh

Hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqi's? Somewhere between 110,000 to 150,000 - Most killed by Iraqi insurgents, sectarian militia's, foreign Jihadist, and criminal elements.

Iraq a Parliamentary Democracy - rather unique in that respect in the "Arab World".


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Jun 11 - 09:09 AM

Ake--

There are no sure bets in diplomacy.   As you should know.

The only sure thing is that Gaddafi is a bloodthirsty tyrant who calls his opponents "traitors" and "rats", has sent assassination squads all over the world to kill dissidents--and has already slaughtered quite a few.    This is just what Hitler did--in fact he mainly restricted himself to the sphere he controlled.

The Benghazi government does not do it.   Quite a few Western diplomats have been impressed with the expressed attitudes of the Benghazi government--which as I have noted, has a lot of intellectuals who cannot stand the straitjacket of the Gaddafi regime.

It's time for all thinking beings to recognize these facts.

And stop making excuses for Gaddafi or implying that any other government would do the same as he does.    The facts in Libya are on the other side.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 07:24 AM

Now that the mask has dropped and NATO are openly targetting regime members and their children(15 killed today), it can be clearly seen that this is the dangerous game of regime change by force.....nothing to do with protecting civilians

This is a civil war, whereas in Syria over 2000 unarmed protesters have been killed and we do nothing.

What fools and hypocrites we are!....Why do we allow our leaders to shame us so?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 07:47 AM

Who will protect Col Gadaffi's civilians?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 09:46 AM

Ron asked which US president ru1ed for 40 years. I'd say J Edgar Hoover, except that he called the shots for 50 (yes, fifty) years - presiding over corruption on a scale that many a third-world country would envy.

I see Teribus is as snide as ever, unmasking a fellow poster from the safe haven of his own pseudonym. I wonder if Teribus and his ilk (Bobad etc) could say exactly what policy considerations lead them to favour the eastern factions over the western factions in Libya's civil war? (They don't need to explain why it is ok to attack Libya but not Syria, because it's obvious: Syria has an army.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 10:19 AM

PeterK-

So, would you possibly be making a "snide" comment?

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: pdq
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 10:37 AM

pinochet seized power with american help, and overthrew a democraticaly elected person Allende. that is fact RON ~ dick miles

lighter, cods wallop. ~ dick miles

In addition to calling people names, Dick Miles is full of crap.

Allende was installed by the parliement which he and Soviet money helped pack with supporters. He got only 36% of the vote in the election and only about 20% of the public supported him. He was a Soviet stooge.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 10:33 PM

"NATO opening targeting...children'

Please let us know, Ake, when you wipe the foam from your mouth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 03:53 PM

Ron.....BBC today, Prime Minister Cameron......"we(the UK) are at war in Afghanistan and Libya"

Nato said yesterday that they targetted the house of one of Col Gadaffi's closest advisers killing the mans whole family....BBC reporters said that of the four children only one head was recognisible...one hardened reporter "threw up" on seeing the remains of the children.

This is the lowest form of terrorism, on a par with anything perpetrated by Al Qaeda, only there was no risk involved to our assasins. No loss of life involved, only mindless brutal slaughter.

In Iraq and Afghanistan we are starting to withdraw our troops, have we achieved anything? Does anyone believe that the Taliban will not come stealing back, or that Muslim fundamentalism will rule again?...only much stronger.

If you Ron, had a son sent home in a body bag, would you not consider that he died for nothing?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 09:10 PM

We are only talking about Libya.   If you can't tell the difference between Gaddafi and the Benghazi government, then, for the n'th time, please take off your blinders.

And if you really think NATO targets children on purpose, there's no point to talking to you---you are beyond reason.


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