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BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011

Little Hawk 23 Jun 11 - 12:43 AM
goatfell 23 Jun 11 - 11:57 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 23 Jun 11 - 12:36 PM
Ron Davies 23 Jun 11 - 10:07 PM
GUEST,Guest Observer 24 Jun 11 - 02:56 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 24 Jun 11 - 04:25 PM
bobad 24 Jun 11 - 05:40 PM
Ron Davies 24 Jun 11 - 09:20 PM
Ron Davies 24 Jun 11 - 09:49 PM
Little Hawk 25 Jun 11 - 04:11 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 25 Jun 11 - 07:59 PM
gnu 25 Jun 11 - 08:36 PM
The Sandman 26 Jun 11 - 04:09 PM
The Sandman 26 Jun 11 - 04:15 PM
pdq 26 Jun 11 - 04:57 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 26 Jun 11 - 08:25 PM
pdq 26 Jun 11 - 08:39 PM
bobad 27 Jun 11 - 08:56 AM
The Sandman 27 Jun 11 - 06:03 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 27 Jun 11 - 08:23 PM
number 6 27 Jun 11 - 10:29 PM
Ron Davies 28 Jun 11 - 09:50 PM
bobad 01 Jul 11 - 05:51 PM
Charley Noble 01 Jul 11 - 10:08 PM
akenaton 02 Jul 11 - 01:15 PM
gnu 02 Jul 11 - 01:53 PM
The Sandman 02 Jul 11 - 02:34 PM
gnu 02 Jul 11 - 04:17 PM
Ron Davies 02 Jul 11 - 04:56 PM
akenaton 02 Jul 11 - 07:03 PM
bobad 02 Jul 11 - 08:29 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 02 Jul 11 - 09:12 PM
Little Hawk 02 Jul 11 - 10:45 PM
akenaton 03 Jul 11 - 07:50 AM
Ron Davies 03 Jul 11 - 11:15 AM
Don Firth 03 Jul 11 - 05:02 PM
bobad 03 Jul 11 - 05:24 PM
Charley Noble 03 Jul 11 - 08:31 PM
bobad 03 Jul 11 - 08:36 PM
akenaton 04 Jul 11 - 03:22 AM
bobad 04 Jul 11 - 07:20 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 04 Jul 11 - 12:13 PM
Charley Noble 05 Jul 11 - 07:41 AM
Ron Davies 05 Jul 11 - 09:13 AM
Teribus 05 Jul 11 - 09:50 AM
akenaton 05 Jul 11 - 04:08 PM
Charley Noble 05 Jul 11 - 05:55 PM
akenaton 05 Jul 11 - 06:09 PM
akenaton 05 Jul 11 - 06:13 PM
Charley Noble 05 Jul 11 - 08:39 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 12:43 AM

There's no point in any of you talking to one another.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: goatfell
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 11:57 AM

good old America at it agin thank you


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 12:36 PM

If you can't tell the difference between Gaddafi and the Benghazi government, then, for the n'th time, please take off your blinders.

For my benefit, if not Ake's, Ron, perhaps you could just spell out what you see as the main strengths of the "Benghazi government" and say how they stack up against Gadaffi's achievements, such as, say, the visionary GMR (man-made river), a legacy of which any regime would be proud.

(Charley Noble, you saw what I wrote. If you think it was snide, just say so. For my part I think it's reasonable that we leave it to forum members to decide for themselves when/whether they want to come out from behind their pseudonyms.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 10:07 PM

"Gaddafi's achievements".    Don't forget the long-running campaign to assassinate Libyan dissidents--all over the world. Check out what he--and his son--said when the son was arrested by Swiss police.    Etc, etc.--ad nauseam.

If you can bestir yourself to do an iota of research.

Just why do you have such fond feelings for a bloodthirsty tyrant?
Feel free to lie down on the couch and tell us all about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Guest Observer
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 02:56 AM

""Good Soldier Schweik" aka Dick Miles" - Teribus

"I see Teribus is as snide as ever, unmasking a fellow poster from the safe haven of his own pseudonym." - Peter K Fionn

Observation:
Hardly unmasking, if you look at the Good Soldier's past posts, the fact that "Good Soldier Schweik" and "Dick Miles" are one and the same is a matter of record.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 04:25 PM

OK, fair enough Guest Observer. Apologies to Teribus: I inferred too much.

Ron, it's pretty obvious that Gadaffi has some faults, like most state leaders. I was hoping you were going to tell us what's so good about the "Benghazi government".


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 05:40 PM

"it's pretty obvious that Gadaffi has some faults......."

That's about the biggest understatement I've ever heard. If you have been following the events in Libya and hearing some of the eyewitness accounts about what he's been doing for the past 40 odd years I don't think you would hear too many describe it as "some faults". Here's an account from one victim of his "faults": http://rafaelmartel.com/2011/03/18/young-mans-account-of-gaddafis-cruelty/


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 09:20 PM

Re: Benghazi government:    it's obvious you haven't even read this thread.    I pointed out earlier that one of the best aspects of the society they are now creating in east Libya is how regular people are pitching in;    Gaddafi's schools are closed;   there are now volunteer teachers.   Volunteer police.   Even voiunteer garbage collectors.

People in general are so happy to be out from under the heavy censorship of the regime of an unstable vicious tyrant--who feels threatened by the idea that any good can come from other people than him.

Too bad clueless Westerners--including armchair socialists who for some reason think they know better than the large percentage of Libyans who have deserted Gaddafi--- are still supporting that dictator.

And by doing so, said clueless Westerners are in large part responsible for the continuing bloodletting---he will never step down until he has no support from anyone--if then.

It's very likely that he will have to go the way of Hitler--whom he resembles in more than one way--which I have also detailed earlier if posters would lift a finger enough to actually read the thread.   But that appears to be beyond the abilities of some posters--mostly those left of center, for some reason.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 09:49 PM

Perhaps the brilliant minds who praise Gaddafi would find time in their busy schedule of building castles in the air to actually read what their idol has recently said:

AP: 24 June 2011 Gaddafi speech of 23 June:   "What you (NATO) are doing will rebound against you and against the world with destruction, desolation, and terrorism."

Yup, sounds like a reasonable guy, all right.    Who could object to that?

And the clueless Western supporters of Gaddafi, once he is confirmed as legitimate ruler of Libya, will then be pushing to release the frozen funds (appr.$ 60 billion or so). After all, if he is legitimately the ruler there is no legal ground to keep the funds frozen.   So he can carry out the general idea pictured above.

It would be nice if the Western pro-Gaddafi folks would actually think before posting.

Hope I'm not too subtle.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jun 11 - 04:11 PM

Subtle????????? LOL! Oh, come now...subtlety is not your forte, Ron.

But I have a little ditty I've composed for the political threads. Not just this political thread, mind you. ALL of them. And it goes like this...

(strike up the vaudeville band, complete with kazoos and egg shakers)

"Sing a song of sixpence, a pocket full of shit,
Four and twenty Mudcat posters having such a fit!
When their fit is over, the world will still go on,
And the bitching on this thread have been forgot by everyone!"
(Cha! Cha! Cha!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 25 Jun 11 - 07:59 PM


AP: 24 June 2011 Gaddafi speech of 23 June:   "What you (NATO) are doing will rebound against you and against the world with destruction, desolation, and terrorism."


That would be a thoughtful prophecy, Ron, except that it's stating the obvious. I don't know what your Arab connections are, but mine are fairly direct. What I hear constantly is that Gadaffi's regime has been nothing like as harsh as those of Mubarak and Assad (notwithstanding the hopes originally invested in Assad); neither has there been repression and inequality comparable with that in Saudi (whose Royals were so ready to carry out a violent crackdown for their pals in Bahrain).

The demonisation of Gadaffi is not without foundation, but is blatently disproportionate, probably driven by guilt that other regimes murder and torture with impunity, sometimes on our behalf. The Saddam scenario revisited.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 25 Jun 11 - 08:36 PM

Hmmmm... maybe Quakkers has the WMDs from Iraq and wanted a better deal from BP and when he couldn't get one by strong arm negotiating they decided to bomb his ass and call his bluff?

Sorry. Don't mean to bring the Brits into bad light here. But if the shoe shits... ya gotta wipe, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 04:09 PM

"Allende was installed by the parliement which he and Soviet money helped pack with supporters. He got only 36% of the vote in the election and only about 20% of the public supported him. He was a Soviet stooge."
   even if this was true this would not be reason for a military overthrow, IN 1974 The English government was elected with 37.2percent, would it have been justifiable for a military coup to overthrow this government,no of course it would not,it is not me that is talking crap.
gaddafi is still there, charley noble has lost his bet, and the west is embroiled in a war that will last some while yet


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 04:15 PM

the october UK 1974 elected with a majority OF THE VOTE OF 39 PER CENT,ron davies, should they have been overthrown by a miltary junta?you are the biggest crap talker of the lot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: pdq
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 04:57 PM

Moamar Khaddafi, Fidel Castro, Robert Mugabe and Salvadore Allende all came to power with a copy of Karl Marx in one hand, Soviet arms in he other hand and their pockets full of Soviet money.

Quote from a Communist publication: "the Libyan revolution, through which the Libyan people took control over their country from UK and US imperialism in 1969."


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 08:25 PM

What communist publication, pdq? It's wishful thinking in any case. Mugabe's support (in his legitimate war against white-supremacy government) came from Tito and China rather than USSR - which doesn't alter the fact that he, like Allende, came into office through free and fair elections. Of course it's in the psyche of many Americans that they have to react hysterically to anything that looks like commie governance, however effective and democratic it might be.

It's part of communism's dilemma that its practitioners sometimes turn into monsters, a la Stalin, Mugabe etc. But that's a fault of the human condition, not of communism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: pdq
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 08:39 PM

If you say that Tito and Mao helped Mugabe more the Russia, fine.

I could have continued the list by mentioning people like Pol Pot. A reay cutie there.

Lefties seem to disown their progeny but only long after the damage has been done.

Most people are not aware the "Pappa Doc" Duvalier, Anastasio Samosa and Cuba's Bautista all came to power with the support of Communism. FDR jumped at the chance to recognize them as legitimate leaders since he had a Soclialist streak too. He even gave recognizing that trio of thugs a special name: Good Neighbor Policy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 27 Jun 11 - 08:56 AM

I hope that those posters who are admirers of him are not too disappointed:

Gadhafi arrest warrant issued by war crimes court


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jun 11 - 06:03 PM

admirers?
no, I am questioning the RIGHT of the west to interfere in middle east affairs, to interfere in the overthrow of Allende, to interfere in Iraq,to interfere in Vietnam.
The imperialist ambitions of the west resulted in Africa being carved up regardless of tribal boundaries, and presenting us with the problems we have today, mainly through the wets pursuits of raw materials, its the same old song , but this time the raw material is oil, f####ing hypocritical phoneys


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 27 Jun 11 - 08:23 PM

I shouldn't think Gadaffi will be too distressed bobad. Libya recognises the ICC only for what it is: a tool with which the US and its hangers on persecute Africans they don't like. (Libya's in good company: the US also puts itself beyond ICC jurisdiction.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: number 6
Date: 27 Jun 11 - 10:29 PM

meanwhile, over in Syria

Assad's thugs continue

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Jun 11 - 09:50 PM

Gaddafi "not as harsh" as Mubarak, etc.    Anything you say.    I wonder why so many Libyans seem to disagree--and want no more part of his regime. I'm sure you know better than they do--virtually everybody in Benghazi and most of the east of the country is well known to be deluded, thinking that kindly old Muammar means them any harm.

Look, whatever you're smoking, you'd best cut down.

And if it is "obvious" that Muammar plans desolation, terrorism, and destruction for the West, it's interesting that does not bother you.   Most rational people might well say we have enough to be concerned about in foreign policy without OK'ing another terrorist power--this one nuclear.

Just how guilty do you feel about the West's sins of colonialism?    You might want to doff your hairshirt at some point-- and start thinking.

It would seem to any rational being that if an angry megalomaniac promises you desolation and terrorism, you really should believe him. And it might not be a good idea to release $60 billion to him.    In fact we should make sure he never gets access to it.   And that means removing him from power permanently.

But how convenient it is that we now have a thread which fits perfectly those who oppose the campaign against Gaddafi and the West's participation in it:   

AWOL: Common Sense


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 05:51 PM

Gaddafi going daffy:

"These people [the Libyans] are able to one day take this battle [...] to Europe, to target your homes, offices, families, which would become legitimate military targets, like you have targeted our homes," he said.

"If we decide to, we are able to move to Europe like locusts, like bees. We advise you to retreat before you are dealt a disaster," he added."

Source BBC


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 10:08 PM

Good Soldier Schweik-

Fortunately you were the only one I can find here who was willing to take me up on my bet that Gadhaffi would be out of power by the end of June.

I'll gladly buy you a round at the pub of your choice the next time I'm in your neighborhood. Or you could collect your bet by coming to Maine and I'd buy you a round at the Old Goat here in Richmond.

There does seem to be gradual and continual progress on the part of the Rebels, with the aid of the UN, in terms of gaining territory.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 01:15 PM

Bobad, if you are going to post quotes, please post them complete, not with the parts which dont suit you removed.

Col Gadaffi made it clear that any action against the NATO countries would be in retaliation against their bombing of Libyan cities and the killing of Libyan citizens......like his son, and grandchildren.

No wonder the guy is angry, he has been set up and his family members murdered in the interests of the UK French and US economies.

Thousands demonstrated yesterday in Tripoli in support of Gadaffi, are they to be left to the "mercy" of the insurgents?
Many Gadaffi supporters in the Benghazi area have been butchered, most have wisely opted to keep quiet.


Nato in perpetrating terrorism by a bombing campaign designed to make Col Gadaffi's supporters desert him......


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 01:53 PM

CP

MALABO, Equatorial Guinea - The African Union has called on its member states disregard the arrest warrant issued by the International Criminal Court against Col. Moammar Gadhafi, a move that could weaken the ability of the world court to hold the Libyan leader accountable for crimes committed against his people.

The decision passed late Friday states that the warrant against Gadhafi "seriously complicates" efforts by the African Union to find a political solution to the crisis in Libya.

AU chairman Jean Ping told reporters that the ICC is "discriminatory" and only goes after crimes committed in Africa while ignoring those committed by Western powers including in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

"With this in mind, we recommend that the member states do not co-operate with the execution of this arrest warrant," said the motion which was shown to The Associated Press and whose passage was confirmed by Daniel Adugna, a spokesman in the AU commissioner's office.

If the AU's 53 member states abide by the decision, it opens the possibility that Gadhafi could avoid prosecution by seeking refuge on the soil of neighbouring nations. That has so far been the case for the former dictator of Chad, Hissene Habre, who was given asylum in Senegal over 20 years ago, and who is yet to face trial for the alleged torture of hundreds of his opponents even though Senegal agreed in 2006 to create an ad hoc court to try Habre.

Gadhafi's chief of staff who was present at this week's African Union summit applauded the AU's decision, holding a copy of it in his hand on Friday evening as the heads of state emerged for their declaration after a day of closed-door deliberations regarding Libya's future. Diplomats said that the African body is divided between those that believe Gadhafi needs to step down immediately and those that want to find a dignified exit for a longtime peer.

"This is a Libyan affair and it needs to stay a Libyan affair," said Gadhafi's chief of staff Bashir Saleh. "How can you ask someone to leave his own house?"

Also on Friday, the AU passed a decision saying Senegal must assume its responsibilities and try Habre — or else allow him to be extradited to Belgium, which has offered to try the Chadian leader.

"It is incumbent on Senegal in accordance with its international obligations to take steps to bring Hissene Habre to trial, or extradite him," the statement said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 02:34 PM

I'll gladly buy you a round at the pub of your choice the next time I'm in your neighborhood. Or you could collect your bet by coming to Maine and I'd buy you a round at the Old Goat here in Richmond.
jayse, i hope the old goat hasnt been made into a bodhran.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 04:17 PM

Interesting post ake. I must say I haven't read a lot of this thread but your last post may be of some merit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 04:56 PM

"Any action would be in retaliation..."    So we should sit back and wait for such action. Anything you say.

Alea jacta est, as I said earlier.

And if NATO stops bombing, leaving him in power, what about the $60 billion?    What secret assurance do you have, Ake, that Gaddafi will not use that money--and more coming in every day--to get a nuclear bomb?    And to sponsor terrorism--again--all over the world.   As, you note, he has promised to do.

It's time--past time-- for opponents of the NATO actions against Gaddafi to start using their heads.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 07:03 PM

Regarding the threatned retaliatory action against the NATO countries who are bombing Libya, Col Gadaffi is notable for screeds of overblown rhetoric, like the rhetoric about searching out the "criminal insurgents" which was so eagerly seized by the West as an excuse to start massacring Col Gadaffi's soldiers and his family from the safety of 20000 ft!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 08:29 PM

A first hand account of how the good Col. Gaddafi treats his fellow citizens: http://english.aljazeera.net/video/africa/2011/06/2011629231512936499.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 09:12 PM

Ron, maybe you find some words confusing? "Retaliation" is reaction to attack. Gadaffi was threatening what his response might be if he continued to be attacked by Nato. If he meant what he was saying (and you seem to be taking him very seriously indeed) then "sitting back" could not, by definition, lead to "such action" (ie retaliation) since there would be nothing to retaliate against. Can you understand now?

But I think even you, Ron, know that Gadaffi was just spluttering harmless bluster. Remembering that he himself came to power through an army coup, he has ensured that Libya under his regime never had an effective military, which is one of the main reasons why he is such an attractive target for Cameron & Co.

Meanwhile the slaughter continues unabated in Syria, where Assad's regime is well on course to emulate that of his grotesquely brutal father. There is far greater repression in Syria than there has ever been in Gadaffi's Libya, but beyond a few patronising lectures from Hillary Clinton, you will not see the west lifting a finger on that front, for obvious reasons.

Of course, the west is entitled to choose whom to wage war against. But don't pretend morality has anything to do with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 10:45 PM

Morality never had anything to do with it. They've decided to get rid of Mr Gaddafi for some kind of pragmatic reasons that they are not uttering a peep about in public, and they are doing nothing about the situation in Syria for equally pragmatic reasons.

It's utterly laughable to imagine that Nato is conducting this lengthy campaign against Gaddafi's Libya to protect some elements in the Libyan public. Nato acts to protect the strategic interests of its more powerful members, not to protect Third World citizens from being slaughtered.

But that's not what they'll tell you, because they want the support of their own public, and the only way they can get it is by supposedly protecting either their own public from a dire foreign threat...or by supposedly coming to the aid of some victimized people in some other country.

It's the standard propaganda routine, used many times in the past. You'll see it again and again and again. It's not the real reason for Nato's military actions.

Obama's war is also technically illegal now under the American Constitution, and has been challenged on that basis by both Democrats and Republicans in Congress...among them Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 07:50 AM

Yes...I agree with Peter and LH,I would also add that "Regime Change" by force, perpetrated or assisted by a group of powerful nations in their own interests, is many times more dangerous than the "dictatorship" of small tribal nations by grandiose individuals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 11:15 AM

"harmless bluster"---singularly stupid--and dangerous--assumption.   Especially with an angry dictator.

Especially with $60 billion plus to draw on for the purpose.

I note with interest that none of the whiners in favor of Muammar have told us how to prevent his access to this money.

As I recently noted: perfect description of the opponents of Western military action in Libya:    AWOL:    Common Sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 05:02 PM

I'm not getting into this discussion.

But it was noted early on with the development of nuclear weapons that should one of these devices fall into the hands of a dictator or international criminal—in this case, Gaddafi or bin Laden, for examples—there is little doubt that they would use it.

It's interesting to note that many people are very surprised when the barking dog actually bites.

Why is that, I wonder. . . ?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 05:24 PM

"BENGHAZI, Libya (Reuters) - Muammar Gaddafi is welcome to live out his retirement inside Libya as long as he gives up all power, Libya's rebel chief told Reuters on Sunday in the clearest concession the rebels have so far offered."

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/07/03/rebels-if-gaddafi-quits-we-will-let-him-stay-in-libya/


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 08:31 PM

It is dangerous to make a deal with the devil, and Gadhafi comes close to that.

I would hope the Rebels don't concede that point.

Gadhafi and his family need to run to Venezuela.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 08:36 PM

Charley, the offer is conditional:

"As a peaceful solution, we offered that he can resign and order his soldiers to withdraw from their barracks and positions, and then he can decide either to stay in Libya or abroad," rebel leader Mustafa Abdel Jalil said in an interview.

"If he desires to stay in Libya, we will determine the place and it will be under international supervision. And there will be international supervision of all his movements," said Jalil, who heads the rebels' National Transitional Council."


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 03:22 AM

Oh!....and what about the 100,000 Libyans who rallied in his support two days ago?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 07:20 AM

"Oh!....and what about the 100,000 Libyans who rallied in his support two days ago?"

They will just have to go along with the majority.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 12:13 PM

Precisely, Ake. I don't see any of the warmongers in this thread explaining what makes the antis better than the pros in Libya's civil war. Surely the truth is that we know very little about the antis except that they do not constitute a cohesive whole and that members of the (so far moderate) Muslim Brotherhood are a leading element.

Neither do I see why Charley Noble and Co get themselves hysterical about Gadaffi. He may be a bit of a tyrant and his style is a bit unorthodox, but that doesn't make him exceptional in a region which, like China for instance, is not ready for western-style democracy. (Watch Israel panic if and when democracy does sweep across the Middle East.)

At any rate, Gadaffi is no Hafez al-Assad, who used extreme brutality to impose stability on what had been a volatile territory. He is not even a Saddam (who used rather less harsh tactics in achieving stability in Iraq).

But then I suppose Charley and Co are still fighting the Vietnam War, to sae us all from the domino effect, ha-ha.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 07:41 AM

Damn! My brillant post last evening got torpedoed. More evidence of an international conspiracy, and it's too early in the morning to recreate it. You'll just have to use your imagination but it was totally crushing!!!

I already owe The Good Soldier a round at the pub of his choice for my overly optimistic prediction that this "crisis" would be resolved by the end of June.

Well, by the end of July, I now predict that the Rebels in the mountains, those in and around Misrata, and those in the East will have advanced close enough to Tripoli to inspire their supporters there to take on Gahdafi's remaining soldiers (those who haven't already defected). Any takers?

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 09:13 AM

"hysterical"    "warmongers".    You will note that those accused of this strongly opposed the Iraq war.    Every situation is different.    Note that we can expect the opponents of Western military involvement in Libya to understand this--or much of anything else.

I note that they still have no clue how we are supposed to keep Gaddafi from the $60 billion plus except by removing him from power.

And as I said, trusting that his threats are just bluster is the stupidest--and most dangerous--attitude one could take.

But after all, not surprising from a group whose mantra is "AWOL:   Common Sense."


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 09:50 AM

"I don't see any of the warmongers in this thread explaining what makes the antis better than the pros in Libya's civil war. Surely the truth is that we know very little about the antis except that they do not constitute a cohesive whole and that members of the (so far moderate) Muslim Brotherhood are a leading element." - Peter K (Fionn)

1: The antis have not been running the country as their own kleptocracy for forty years

2: The anti's did not start by killing civilians who dared to protest

As to the anti's not constituting a cohesive whole, well very few countries have an opposition that represents a "cohesive whole" but a number of separate groups that share some common ground. I would be willing to venture however that the anti's have enough support and the right to determine their own future.

What we do know about Gaddafi is that to remain in power he has had to ship in mercenaries to kill all those Libyan civilians who love him so much.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 04:08 PM

That was a pretty poor post for you Mr T

Surely the point Peter is making, is why the fuck are we taking sides in a civil war in a sovereign nation, when we have no idea how many support Col G and how many are against.
In these sorts of conflicts the "people" tend to support whoever they think will win, so the intervention of the Nato assasins must have affected support substancially?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 05:55 PM

akenaton-

"so the intervention of the Nato assasins(sic)"

Well, that's certainly calling a spade a sawzall.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 06:09 PM

Que??


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 06:13 PM

Sorry about the typo Charlie :0)
as·sas·sin   /əˈsæsɪn/ Show Spelled
[uh-sas-in] Show IPA

–noun
1. a murderer, especially one who kills a politically prominent person for fanatical or monetary reasons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 08:39 PM

Score one for Gadhafi's marines. They managed to intercept a shipment of arms to the Rebels from Qatar:

"Libyan officials are claiming to have intercepted two boats carrying a cache of weapons from Qatar, reportedly intended for rebels fighting forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi.

On Monday, Moussa Ibrahim, a government spokesman, said 11 rebels were captured from the boats close to shore near the town of Janzour, just west of Tripoli."

Charley Noble


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