Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22]


BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011

Teribus 06 Jul 11 - 12:41 AM
Ron Davies 06 Jul 11 - 12:55 AM
bobad 14 Jul 11 - 12:00 PM
Charley Noble 14 Jul 11 - 06:51 PM
Ron Davies 14 Jul 11 - 11:15 PM
Charley Noble 15 Jul 11 - 08:26 AM
Charley Noble 15 Jul 11 - 03:10 PM
akenaton 15 Jul 11 - 04:09 PM
Charley Noble 15 Jul 11 - 11:55 PM
Ron Davies 16 Jul 11 - 12:33 AM
Ron Davies 16 Jul 11 - 12:45 AM
akenaton 16 Jul 11 - 07:02 AM
Teribus 16 Jul 11 - 08:27 AM
akenaton 16 Jul 11 - 08:55 AM
Charley Noble 16 Jul 11 - 09:59 AM
Ron Davies 16 Jul 11 - 10:51 AM
Charley Noble 21 Jul 11 - 01:59 PM
The Sandman 21 Jul 11 - 02:19 PM
Charley Noble 21 Jul 11 - 08:34 PM
Ron Davies 21 Jul 11 - 11:32 PM
Ron Davies 21 Jul 11 - 11:33 PM
akenaton 22 Jul 11 - 04:13 AM
Charley Noble 22 Jul 11 - 09:47 AM
The Sandman 22 Jul 11 - 12:45 PM
Ron Davies 22 Jul 11 - 09:26 PM
bobad 23 Jul 11 - 09:27 AM
Charley Noble 23 Jul 11 - 02:49 PM
bobad 23 Jul 11 - 07:12 PM
akenaton 24 Jul 11 - 11:48 AM
Stringsinger 24 Jul 11 - 11:53 AM
Charley Noble 24 Jul 11 - 01:13 PM
Little Hawk 25 Jul 11 - 09:38 AM
akenaton 25 Jul 11 - 10:20 AM
GUEST 25 Jul 11 - 12:11 PM
Charley Noble 25 Jul 11 - 05:20 PM
The Sandman 25 Jul 11 - 05:31 PM
Teribus 25 Jul 11 - 06:07 PM
akenaton 25 Jul 11 - 06:41 PM
Ron Davies 26 Jul 11 - 12:00 AM
Teribus 26 Jul 11 - 01:08 AM
akenaton 26 Jul 11 - 03:07 AM
GUEST,number 6 26 Jul 11 - 09:07 PM
Ron Davies 26 Jul 11 - 10:54 PM
Ron Davies 26 Jul 11 - 10:59 PM
Teribus 27 Jul 11 - 10:53 AM
The Sandman 27 Jul 11 - 06:44 PM
Ron Davies 28 Jul 11 - 09:04 AM
Charley Noble 28 Jul 11 - 09:11 AM
akenaton 28 Jul 11 - 12:03 PM
Ron Davies 28 Jul 11 - 10:42 PM

Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 12:41 AM

A poor post Akenaton??

Care to tell me and everyone else for that matter where anything I have stated is incorrect in any detail?

UN are involved because they were asked to act and the UN Security Council agreed to act.

Arms shipments going to "rebel forces" west of Tripoli? But I thought that, according to Akenaton, the whole of the western part of the country "loved" Colonel Gaddafi, Charley, don't tell me that this extremely unpopular and wholely unsupported rebellion is growing.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 12:55 AM

"NATO assassins"---if you want " hysterical", Ake, try looking in the mirror.

One of the main reasons this is dragging on is that NATO is in fact unwilling to assassinate Gadhafi.   As I suggested months ago, this very likely could have been ended long since if NATO (or any opposing force to Gadhafi) had been willing to put a $10 million dollar price on his head.    Too bad this wasn't done---the mercenaries working for him have I'm sure never seen so much money, and they very likely would have ended the whole story for Muammar quite a while ago.


Which would have been better for everybody else in Libya and elsewhere. Lots of lives and money would have been saved.


And, by the way, still waiting for you to tell us how you propose to keep the $60 billion plus from Muammar.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 12:00 PM

Gaddafi has 'suicide plan' for capital: Russia envoy

By Agence France-Presse
Thursday, July 14th, 2011 -- 8:09 am

MOSCOW — Libyan leader Moamer Kadhafi has a "suicidal plan" to blow up the capital Tripoli if it is taken by rebels, the Kremlin's special envoy to Libya told a Russian newspaper Thursday.

"The Libyan premier told me: if the rebels seize the city, we will cover it with missiles and blow it up," Kremlin envoy Mikhail Margelov said in an interview with the Izvestia daily.

Margelov met Libyan Prime Minister Baghdadi al-Mahmudi last month.

"I imagine that the Kadhafi regime does have such a suicidal plan," he added, saying that Kadhafi still had plentiful supplies of missiles and ammunition.

But Margelov, who has had rare access to senior Libyan officials, questioned reports that Kadhafi could be running out of arms in the drawn-out conflict.

Kadhafi had still not used a single surface-to-surface missile, he argued.

"Tripoli theoretically could lack ammunition for tanks, cartridges for rifles. But the colonel has got plenty of missiles and explosives."

Margelov met the Libyan prime minister on June 16 in Tripoli after holding talks in Benghazi earlier the same month. He has not met Kadhafi himself.

Russia abstained from a vote on a March UN Security Council resolution that opened the way for foreign involvement and has since criticized the campaign -- particularly arms drops by France.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov met US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton on Wednesday for talks on Libya, where Lavrov sought to play down differences between the countries.

However, the Russian foreign ministry said earlier Wednesday that Moscow would not take part in talks on Libya later this week in Turkey, which has also seen itself as a mediator in the conflict.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 06:51 PM

bobad-

If that plan's a bluff, it's a good one. Gahdaffi is still a master of manipulating what few pieces he has to play with, and the lives of his supporters are part of his inventory.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 11:15 PM

But the problem, Charlie, is that only one side knows what it wants:   Gadhafi's side:   

He is clear:   he wants 1) survival and   2) revenge

But his opponents are all over the map--can't agree on anything.   The NATO countries are all resenting more and more the steady financial drain. But they're still unwilling to venture beyond the straitjacket imposed both by the UN and their own unwillingness to risk civilian suffering.   On top of that they are constantly squabbling with each other.   And Gaddafi is also trying to play them off against the rebels--who are also getting exasperated (for good reason) with NATO's dithering.   All he has to do is delay--since time is on his side.

On top of this, we are coming up to Ramadan.   If this--as is likely-- does result in a ceasefire, it will be very difficult for NATO countries to convince their electorates to start the war up again.

So we wind up with a de facto split between east and west Libya.

Then what happens to the frozen funds?    We have to make sure none of them go to Gaddafi--but if there's a ceasefire and a split, how do you do that?

What I'd like to know above all else:   did Italy follow through on its earlier promise of a line of credit to the rebels--or did Berlusconi's recent cold feet scotch that?

It seems likely that no NATO country has come through with a line of credit.   And then the West whines about how the rebels loot captured towns.   How the hell else are they to carry on the campaign?

I have to say, I'm not close to as sanguine as you are about how this is going--or the likely outcome.   Hope I'm wrong.

NATO is trying to make this a cross between a war and a "police action".   That's not the way you win anything.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 08:26 AM

Ron-

"Sanguine"!

How dare you accuse me of that!!! I propose wet noodles at ten paces at an undisclosed location. Wonder if Terribus would act as my second?

I do remember saying something much much earlier with regard to "romantic expectations in uncivil wars" and that my own were quite modest.

Evidently another strategic town was recaptured by the Rebels yesterday and they now claim they are there for keeps.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 03:10 PM

Importants news from Al Jazeera:

"The US has joined 30 other nations in formally recognising Libya's main opposition group as the country's legitimate government until a new interim authority is created.

Friday's decision, which declared Muammar Gaddafi's government no longer legitimate, will potentially free up money that the rebels fighting the Libyan leader's forces urgently need."

This news has provided a much needed morale boost to the Rebels: click here for report!

It should also provide a substantial financial boost as well.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 04:09 PM

Unbelievable!!

And I thought the bankers were robbing bastards.

Apparently.....today's Times reports that an Islamist pary are hot favourites to win Tunisian election

The insurgents in Libya comprise large numbers of Muslim radicals.

Thats Tunisia, Egypt,and in time Libya.....the Islamic axis is taking shape

"Democracy" is sometimes not very democratic.
Be very careful what you wish for Charley.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 11:55 PM

akenaton-

"Democracy" is sometimes not very democratic.
Be very careful what you wish for Charley.


I wish Gadhafi and his family removed but I won't be particularly surprised if the new Rebel government does not live up to anyone's romantic expectations. Shit, it took us ten years or so after throwing off the tyranny of Great Britain to achieve anything resembling a democracy.

But I do wish the Rebels well.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 12:33 AM

1)    "large numbers of Islamic radicals"---exact quote and source please.

2)   So sorry we can't promise you immediately a perfect democracy when Gaddafi falls.   Please tell us, by the way, where in the world you have found such a democracy.

3)   If you can't tell the difference between Gaddafi and the Benghazi government---( now recognized, as Charlie notes, as the only legitimate government in Libya)--then, for the n'th time, please take off your blinders. (This is a recording.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 12:45 AM

But you're right, Charlie.   The recognition of the rebel government--esp. by the US-- is by far the best thing to happen to them in a long time.   Now some of the frozen funds can start flowing to them.   Hope it's not too late, especially considering Ramadan fast approaching--and what that means to the campaign, as I noted.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 07:02 AM

"I do wish the rebels well"

And what do you wish for the thousands who support the Col and the social policies which he implimented......by all accounts the best in the area on Housing, education and health.

Would you gamble them away on the "romantic notion " of democracy? On the whims of a rag tag band of Islamists,youthful dreamers and foreign activists, supported by rapacious nations who serve only their own interests.

The whole developed world hates people like Gadaffi....they want things tied up nice and tight in the bands of the "democratic" system, it makes people much easier to control.....why do you think we are allowing ourselves to be fucked by the rich and powerful at this time?

Forget Libya and start thinking about what is being perpetrated against our own people......in the name of "liberal democracy"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 08:27 AM

A minor historical detour by way of an a-side:

"Shit, it took us ten years or so after throwing off the tyranny of Great Britain to achieve anything resembling a democracy."

Ehm No - What the English/British Colonists of North America wanted to get rid of was the Government who by honouring their Treaty Obligations with the Native Tribes put shackles on and restrained the rapaciousness of the said Colonists and prevented expansion westwards into the wabash and Ohio Basins.

Rather than being over-taxed at the time the "American Colonists were being subsidised by Britain - They paid one twenty-seventh the taxes being paid by the counterparts in Britain.

"No Taxation without Representation" - Indeed - Complete and utter bullshit"

Back on topic there have been assurances given that there will be no let up in the campaign, Ramadan or no Ramadan. The air effort is to intensify in the run up to the festival.

I admire Akenaton's support of Gaddafi's education programme it comes straight out of "Animal Farm" or the worst of the Marxist Regimes. Tell me Akenaton why was no child in Libya allowed to learn a foreign language?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 08:55 AM

and I admire your blind allegiance to capitalist liberal democracy Mr T, when every day it sinks deeper in the swamp of corruption.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 09:59 AM

"after throwing off the tyranny of Great Britain" we "Americans" negotiated an option for the Tory loyalists to be transported by the British to the country of their choice. Our record with regard to the Native Tribes is certainly nothing to brag about, nor is that of Canada's.

I think we might lobby for something similar for the Gadhafi loyalists, the ones who are not already indicted for crimes against humanity. I'm convinced than 10% might want to seek such asylum, although I doubt if Gahdafi will spend a petro-dollar on their behalf.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 10:51 AM

So, Ake, because there is corruption in Western democracies, we should leave the Libyans to the tender mercies of the Brother Leader.    You really are scraping the bottom of the barrel in your desperate attempt to justify deserting the rebels now.

I'm sorry to say that the only word to describe the opponents of Western military involvement in Libya now is pathetic.

Though dangerously naive is another description--especially for any of you who think Muammar's threats to bring desolation and terrorism to the West are just harmless bluster.   Above all with the $60 billion in frozen funds you want to hand back to him. You were going to tell us what secret assurances you have from him that he will not use that money to acquire a nuclear bomb or to fund terrorism.

When will you start to think?   We're still waiting.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 01:59 PM

More progress by Rebel forces on the battlefield in and around Brega: Click here for report!

The Rebels also report capturing an important Gadhafi general, Abdul Nabih Zayed. While there are mopping up operations continuing in Brega, the bulk of Gadhafi forces appear to be fleeing west.

Minefields and bobby traps remain behind at oil installations to be disarmed.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 02:19 PM

charley, dont believe the news or propoganda, this could be a european equivalent to vietnam


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 08:34 PM

Dick-

It could well be another "Vietnam" but I am detecting momentum on the part of the Rebels.

ABC News this evening had an interview with one media savvy Rebel commander who claimed that new instructions were going out to those in the field not to plunder Gadhafi supporters. Evidently some plundering has been observed by the foreign media.

So, I already owe you one round. How about double or nothing for Gahdafi fleeing the country by the end of July?

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 11:32 PM

Hard put to be a European version of Vietnam with no European ground troops. There speaks the typically Pollyanna attitude of our leftist friends, who have always been so supportive.

But to keep it European ground troops out we should sell the rebels all they need--payment from a line of credit, since they have no hard currency now.   It would be an excellent investment.




Really Charlie?    Muammar flees Libya by the end of July?.   Hell, I'd take that bet in a second.

And you condemn yourself to the crime of being sanguine--after all.

Now that the Benghazi council has been recognized by so many Western states as the only legitimate government in Libya, it's only a matter of time til Gaddafi falls.   But it will still be after July.    Maybe by the end of summer (21 Sept)--and that's if Western powers are willing to start the war again after the expected break for Ramadan.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 11:33 PM

"But to keep European..."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 04:13 AM

It was always inevitable that the invisible assassins would prevail, but surely what we should be debating, is whether regime change by force, by foreign powers, is morally correct.

Most of us threw up our arm in horror over Iraq...yet most of us remain silent on Libya......does this mean we now give tacit approval to this course of action?

If so, God help us all!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 09:47 AM

akenaton-

And some even remain silent about Iran.

And there's hardly a whisper heard nowadays in the international press about Scotland.

So, I've got two beers riding so far on Gadhafi fleeing to Venezuela by the end of July. Any more takers?

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 12:45 PM

no he will still be there by the end of july, I will take it, furthermore heres a good bet djokovic to win the us open at two to one


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 09:26 PM

"invisible assassins".    Ake, you ought to try your hand at pulp fiction--overwrought prose just flows out of you effortlessly, it seems.

And just think, in pulp fiction, facts and logic are just incidental--or not desired at all.   Fits you like a glove.

You might even make some money at it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 09:27 AM

Wounded Gaddafi soldier says morale of troops is low
July 23, 2011
Posted in July 2011, News, Week Commencing July 18 | 10:12

MISRATA, Libya (Reuters) – Morale is low among troops fighting for Muammar Gaddafi on the front west of Misrata and many are reluctant to fight back against rebel attacks, a recently-wounded loyalist soldier told Reuters on Friday.

"Most of them are exhausted, especially as we approach the month of Ramadan," said the soldier, who spoke on condition his name and his hometown not be mentioned for fear of reprisals against his family. "They don't want to fight during Ramadan."

"They want everything to settle and we're all Libyan brothers," he added. "We don't want to harm each other."

Muslims observe the month of Ramadan by fasting during daylight hours and praying. It is traditionally a time families spend together. This year's Ramadan promises to be gruelling for Muslims, starting during the hot and dry month of August.

The soldier gave the interview from his bed at Misrata's Al Hikma hospital with no one in the room except Reuters staff, offering a rare insight into the morale in Gaddafi's camp.

The soldier said he was shot in the left thigh two or three days ago by rebel fighters on the front line that has been pushed amid heavy fighting and bombardment to around 40 kilometres (25 miles) west of Misrata.

That puts the front around 6 kilometres east of Zlitan, the largest city remaining between the rebels and the capital Tripoli 160 km away.

Rebel fighters in Misrata frequently say many of the young soldiers they come up against in combat seem reluctant to fight, an impression the young soldier confirmed.

"There is no organisation or planning," he said in a quiet voice. "Most times we withdraw."

TREATING BOTH SIDES

When asked why he had joined the fight against the rebels, the government soldier said he had been lied to at the military college he was attending when the uprising began.

"They didn't allow us to watch media channels," he said. "We were only allowed to watch Libyan (state) television."

"I was told (the rebels) were criminal gangs who mutilated bodies."

The soldier said he had expected to be treated badly when he was wounded and captured.

"I was treated with respect," he said. "I did not expect to be treated this well."

On a visit to the International Medical Corps field hospital behind the western front line on Wednesday, a Reuters team saw three wounded Gaddafi loyalists being treated as well as injured rebel fighters.

The hospital staff appeared to treat the patients according to the seriousness of their injury, not which side they were fighting on.

"We have treated those who were with us and those who were against us," said Faisal Mahmoud, a rebel fighter being treated at the hospital for a head injury and wounds to both arms sustained in a mortar attack this week.

The wounded Gaddafi loyalist said he was operated on before other rebel fighters injured the same day.

Both sides in the war that began with street protests across Libya for greater freedom back in February have accused the other of hiring mercenaries to fight. Rebels commonly refer to fighters from Chad or Algeria among Gaddafi's troops.

But the young soldier said "apart from a few people with strange dialects," he had not seen any sign of mercenaries.

Rebel commanders have also said recently they have encountered land mines ahead of Gaddafi loyalist positions, but the soldier said he was not aware of a major mining operation.

Asked what would happen to him when his wound was healed, the young man said he had been told he would be free to go.

"They told me that when things calm down 'we will send you back to your family and we will treat you well,'" he said.

Source Reuters


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 02:49 PM

Bobad-

Nice story and it may even be true. Sometimes that happens in even uncivil wars.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 07:12 PM

Libyan women fight for freedom on the home front

By Agence France-Presse
Saturday, July 23rd, 2011 -- 4:26 pm

ZINTAN, Libya — Libyan men have had to reassess how they view the fairer sex since the start of the uprising, and when the dust settles the role of women in the north African country may well have changed for ever.

The women of Libya -- especially in the Nafusa Mountains -- were among the protesters before the fighting started, and since then they have readied their sons and husbands for battle and nursed the wounded.

Meanwhile, they are also fighting for their own emancipation in the new Libya they are helping their men to forge.

Women do not exchange glances on the streets of the conservative Arab city of Zintan at the foot of the Nafusa range in western Libya. Behind walls daubed with graffiti proclaiming a "Free Libya," they move like black phantoms, hidden behind the full veil of the niqab.

At home, the arrival of an unfamiliar male guest sparks panic, and the ladies of the house scatter like bees. In times of war, they spend most of their time cloistered within four walls.

However, the ladies of Libya have felt the winds of change at their backs.

They were chanting "Down with Kadhafi" at the start of the insurrection, alongside the men, calling for veteran strongman Moamer Kadhafi to go.

"I've rallied with plenty of young women, even some pregnant ones. The men were so impressed they fired their Kalashnikovs in our honour! That showed them we were equal, and changed their opinion of us," says Afaf Abusaa, a 20-year-old technology student.

With the men away at the battlefield, the women secure the home front with housework and by providing moral support.

"Men have seen the women nurse the wounded, do volunteer work and cook for the fighters. They've seen mothers tell their sons: 'Go and fight. I will support you.' They hadn't expected that," says Hana Akra, a 24-year-old medical intern.

Women in Libya have come to see the revolution as a route towards their own emancipation, a way to break free from the jobs reserved for them: nurse, secretary or teacher, trades that leave time to take care of the family.

Not they can see a future in which they are not overlooked for a position because a man, albeit a less qualified one, has applied for the same job.

They hope that in the new Libya, their parents will allow them to select their own husbands, that their fathers and brothers will stop bossing them around and forbidding them from actively choosing their own path through life.

"Society is very conservative here," says Najiah Hamza, a 26-year-old medical student. "Women don't really have the chance to control their own destiny. We are always told: 'Don't say this, don't do that.' I hope the revolution helps us."

Forty-year-old Salma Abu Rawi recalls how her parents refused to let her marry her childhood sweetheart because he wasn't from Zintan, while Abusaa would rather not have to wear the veil after she is married.

Akra explains how she has to fight to become a surgeon, a profession reserved for men. "A woman must break the glass ceiling," she says.

"Parents are afraid to let their daughters go out, or work, for fear of gossip. We hope this will change, that men change, that they stop wanting us to be devoted primarily to the house, to the cooking and the children. We also want to be ourselves," says Alazumi Asma, a 22-year-old trainee laboratory assistant.

In the Berber villages of west Libya, women traditionally enjoy more freedom than in other parts of the country.

In Yafran, women do not have to wear the veil in public. They can be seen behind the steering wheels of cars or discussing contraception in front of men. And no one at home can order them around.

Berber ladies feel they have been leading the way towards women's liberation in Libya for some time. "Even under Kadhafi, we wanted to show the way," says Twzeen Ali Abud, a 20-year-old student.

They want to go further still. Women's rights groups are popping up in Zintan, where there is talk of changing the laws on divorce and allowing women to participate in politics.

"The revolution gave us a chance to play a role" in society, says 23-year-old pharmacist Anya Ali Abud.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 11:48 AM

Have you examined the figures for "womens emancipation" in Iraq bobad?

I take it you see the irony in that cut and paste?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 11:53 AM

Anybody read the book or see the movie "Wag the Dog"? A Chief Executive is more powerful as a Commander-in-Chief.

Anyone who thinks women will be liberated in Libya, I have a bridge to sell to you. Reason for this is Islam which veils women.

The only revolution is to overthrow Islam (not to mention the other religions). Not by violence, though. By reason.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 01:13 PM

I'm all for "reason" backed up with "courage." When both fail, armed civil war is the inevitable next step for those who believe in their cause. And historically many such uprisings have been crushed by those in power and their international allies.

Emperor Haile Selassie of Ethiopia would have been deposed in the early 1960's without the direct intervention of U.S. military "trainers." And many a peaceful protest has been brutally suppressed there since, including those focused on the current regime. But one has to search hard to find the reports.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 09:38 AM

Religions don't get overthrown, stringsinger. They evolve with time and they change significantly. They adapt to changing societal norms. A brief study of what's happened in Christianity in the last 2,000 years will clearly illustrate my point, and the same thing will inevitably occur with Islam, in fact has been occurring in the last 1500 years, despite retrograde efforts by fundamentalist factions within the religion.

There's always a conservative part of a religious community that wants to keep things frozen in stone and do them like they were done "back in the year One", but they are usually in the minority. Religions change, just as other things in society change.

You're never going to see Christianity or Islam or Buddhism or any other significant religion in this world overthrown, you're going to see them evolve, change, and adapt to new ways of thinking. Now, I know that isn't what you want to see.... ;-) But too bad, cos you can't always get what you want! ;-)

You suggest overthrowing Islam by the power of reason. Aha! That's an excellent idea, to use reason...but reason doesn't overthrow religions, it re-interprets them and comes up with a far more reasonable version of them. That's evolution. Your desire to eradicate religions entirely from this world is not that of a man inclined to reason, it's that of a fanatic bent on forcing everyone else to think the way he wants them to. He figures that since he isn't religious...therefore they shouldn't be either! Sorry. That's not reasonable. It's as unreasonable as insisting that no one be gay, because you aren't gay or that no one should eat lobster, because you don't eat lobster.

****

As to the rest of you...still busy kicking the old Libya can around, eh? Okay, here's the thing. You know what absolutely terrifies Muammar Ghadaffi? You know what keeps him awake at night and causes him to despair for his chances of survival?

This thread on Mudcat! Yeah, that's right. Every morning old Muammar turns on his computer immediately after doing prayer, and he breaks out into a cold sweat as he reads the dire predictions and burning accusations from various worthy gents here who make it a daily habit to utterly damn and destroy Muammar Gadhaffi by way of the keyboard and to pursue him digitally, yea even beyond the grave!!! He shakes in his boots. He begs Allah to save him from the terrors of Mudcat condemnation. His hopes dwindle to zero and he whimpers and moans and beats his little fisties on the ground...just like Saddam, Osama, Manuel Noriega, and a host of other prime baddies used to do. This place reduces such evil types to a quivering pile of jelly on the floor!

Doesn't it make you feel utterly glorious to be basking in the incredible power you wield here as you help to bring down the despicable Mr Gadhaffi? ;-) All I can say is..."Go, team, go!!!!!"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 10:20 AM

Amen....   :0)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli Donuel-April, 2011
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 12:11 PM

Poster appears to be Donuel

I am not afraid of you Little Bitty Hawk. Your infidel words are hollow and empty.

Muammer Khadafy


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 05:20 PM

LH-

When you put it that way, I guess I'll have to be even more persuasive. So, you think that we've really got old Gadhafi by the ear!

"Hey, you pile of camel dung, ship out to Venezuela!"

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 05:31 PM

charley, you have a week ,and another bet lost.
libya was divided like most of africa regardless of tribes up, western libya is supporting gadaffi, the west should stop interfering, there interference in dividing libya up, regardless of tribes has caused the present problems


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:07 PM

"Libya was divided up like most of Africa regardless of tribes, Western Libya (Tripolitania) is supporting gadaffi, the West should stop interfering, their interference in dividing Libya up, regardless of tribes has caused the present problems."

Oddly enough what we know as Libya has existed and rubbed along rather well since 1952.

The bit that seems to support Gaddafi is the bit around Tripoli and even then only some of that Cyrenaica is definitely against him as are the mountain tribes to the West of Tripoli and the Feddan in the South West.

The present troubles Dick were caused by Gaddafi ordering his soldiers to shoot unarmed civilian protesters and when some of them refused Gaddafi brought in foreign mercenaries from Mali, Chad and Ghana to shoot them.

None of the rebels are separatists, nobody wants to see Libya broken up.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:41 PM

"The present troubles Dick were caused by Gaddafi ordering his soldiers to shoot unarmed civilian protesters and when some of them refused Gaddafi brought in foreign mercenaries from Mali, Chad and Ghana to shoot them"

Now Mr T.... that is so unlike you. You have absolutely no way of verifying that statement.
How do you know that the Col personally ordered the shooting of civilians.....Did Mrs Thatcher personally order the shooting of civilians in Derry?.....I doubt it!

You have no wat of knowing whether or not the Col brought in mercenaries to "shoot civilians".....A captured govt soldier this week told the insurgents that he had seen no mercenaries.

He may have recruited soldiers to bolster troops.
The insurgents CERTAINLY HAVE.....British, Spanish, American, French,
complete with a huge armoury of very offensive weapons


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 12:00 AM

It's obvious to any thinking person--though perhaps that excludes our dear friends who oppose Western military support of the Benghazi rebel council---that it's just not a good idea to split your country.   Neither Gaddafi nor the rebels are in favor of it.

In fact the ones who seem to be in favor of this idea are those Mudcatters still pathetically trying to justify deserting the rebels. And pathetic is certainly the right word to describe said posters.

In the words of my favorite foreign policy analyst, Shania Twain:   That don't impress me much.



However, perhaps this thread is leaning towards becoming a music thread.

My contribution (unless this has already been suggested) would be something starting along these lines:


Gaddafi
Gaddafi
Gaddafi--he take the money and run Venezuela


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 01:08 AM

Akenaton are you suggesting that nobody ordered the shooting of civilian protesters? Did doing that just seem a good idea at the time to those who actually did the shooting? I somehow doubt that.

Mercenaries have been captured Akenaton, please do not try to claim they do not exist.

The other big point of difference. the Armies in most of the countries of the Arab World exist not to "defend the nation" but to "defend those in power", they do not look outwith their borders for enemies to fight they are there to suppress their populations.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 03:07 AM

Weak post Teribus, as Gadaffi's Libya was the best, in terms of caring for his people, amongst Arab states.

Gadaffi was hated by other Arab leaders because of these policies.

As far as mercenaries go....I did not claim that "they did not exist"
You have stated catagorically that they were brought in "to shoot civilians."

Gadaffi has stated that there were a few civilian deaths during the protests.....he says around ten, I have seen nothing to disprove that figure and it is insignificant compared to the numbers killed in other Arab States.

Or the numbers killed in air strikes.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 09:07 PM

Here's an article from Der Spiegel that should interest those who participate in this thread ...

Tribal Rivalries Complicate Libyan War


biLL


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 10:54 PM

"hated by other Arab leaders".    Wrong.   By some. Not by others. Particularly not the ones who benefited from his oil money largess.

More to the point is the old question:   why have half his people (or more) turned their backs on this beloved leader--and many are willing to die to oppose him?"

Time at long last for you to take off your blinders, Ake.

Your excuses for deserting the rebels now are worse than threadbare.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 10:59 PM

And your naivete in swallowing Gaddafi's oh-so-objective number on the Libyans killed in protests is so charming.

Look, we will never have an accurate number on that til after the war is over.

That argument is even more feeble than your others.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 10:53 AM

Reported on BBC this morning:

Reporters taken along with their Gaddafi minders to a supposed site of a UN/NATO strike.

Told that so many civilians had been killed and that people/bodies were still trapped in the rubble.

Reporters observed that at no time in the supposed rescue operation was any halt called to stop and listen for signs of life.

Asked if it would be possible to see, just see, not interview, survivors in hospital the reporters were told no that would not be possible.

Asked if it would be possible to see the graves of those who had been killed, the reporters were told no that would not be possible.

Wonder why??


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 06:44 PM

Charley Noble you have 3 days left.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 09:04 AM

He's obviously going to lose his bet about July.    That was always likely.

However, those who oppose Western military participation in Libya have yet to come up with any remotely reasonable argument for deserting the rebels now.

I am above all still patiently waiting for them to tell us what secret assurances they have that when Gaddafi gets access to the frozen $60 billion--which they no doubt advocate--- he will not use that money to either acquire a nuclear bomb or sponsor terrorism all over the world.

Just answer the question please--we don't need whining about how the West allegedly engages in terrorism---an assertion ridiculous on its face and not deserving of more discussion.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 09:11 AM

It's true that it's looking likely that Gadhafi will hang on past the end of July but I'm still hopeful that he may wise up and make a run for it.

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 12:03 PM

According to the Times reporter....it is now a given that Nato involvement was to impliment regime change.....We are now in a stalemate position, but we are trapped....as we cannot be seen to have failed in another intervention.

It is exactly like Iraq and Afghanistan, now it is about not losing face...what a shower of fucking idiots....or are they?
Perhaps that is the master plan, turn the Middle East and North Africa into a War Zone.

They are leaking stuff about "democracy" being a far off dream, as I said, Muslim Fundamentalism rules!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 10:42 PM

"trapped" ,   master plan", etc.    I see the king of purple prose is still at it.   Nice to know some things don't change.   Dewar's, and Ake's flights of fancy.

Too bad he's so divorced from reality.   But it's still entertaining.

It seems that if you're left of center, logic and sense are just a hindrance to "expressing yourself."   


Still waiting for your answer as to, if you get your wish and NATO drops support of the rebel council--now recognized as Libya's only legitimate government by many states---how you propose to keep the $60 billion, now frozen, out of Gaddafi's hands.

Can't understand why you haven't managed to answer the question--you seem to have time to rabbit on about everything else.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate


Next Page

 


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.



Mudcat time: 23 February 4:41 PM EST

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.