BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 10:50 PM

Younes, supposedly head of the rebel army, is dead.   The death is a fact.    Circumstances unclear.


Stand by for Ake, Good Soldier, and similar intellectual giants to tell us this proves NATO should not be involved in a murky conflict.

Countdown:   3-2-1...........




It proves nothing of the kind. It only proves no war is without setbacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 10:52 PM

And I still want to know the answer regarding the $60 billion.    Particularly since dear Muammar has promised the West devastation and terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 06:03 PM

Satisfied???

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 06:22 PM

akenaton-

Yes, there may well be a conservative Islamic take-over of the Egyptian "Arab Spring" but it's not over yet, just one more large public demonstration.

I'm more concerned about who ordered the murder of General Younes, and the credentials of the general next in line to replace him. The murder of Younes may have been carried out by Gadhafi agents or by Rebel security agents who were ordered to bring him back for questioning. The story so far does not add up.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 06:58 PM

hmmmm... if the US defaults on it's loans, will it still be able to chuck cruise missles around willy nilly like they were children's toys?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 07:07 PM

"Satisfied???"

I take it this is directed at the people of Egypt who organized to oust their tyrant and who will now attempt to democratically elect the leadership they want. As much as you dislike democracy it beats hell outta tyrannical dictatorship IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 08:57 PM

Here's a link to a more complete report via Al Jazeera of the assassination of General Younes: Click here for report

"Abdel Fattah Younes and his aides were killed by gunmen on Thursday, creating a power vacuum at the top of the opposition military hierarchy and raising questions about who was responsible.

Ali Tarhouni, a rebel minister, said that a militia leader, who had asked to fetch Younes from the frontline near the oil town of Brega, had been arrested and had confessed that his subordinates had carried out the killing."

Gadhafi spokesmen claim that Al Qaida was behind the assassination. The CIA has no comment but their favorite general is ready to take over as commander and chief.

"An angry Mohammed Agoury, a member of the rebel special forces, told the AP news agency that he was present when a group of rebels from a faction known as the February 17 Martyrs' Brigade came to Younes' operations room outside Benghazi before dawn on Wednesday and took him away for interrogation.

Agoury said he tried to accompany his commander, but Younes "trusted them and went alone".

"Instead, they betrayed us and killed him," he said.

The February 17 Martyrs Brigade is a group made up of hundreds of civilians who took up arms to join the rebellion.

Their fighters participate in the front-line battles with Gaddafi's forces, but also act as a semi-official internal security force for the opposition."

This is just the kind of "shot in the foot" that will greatly undercut the momentum that the Rebels have been slowly achieving in the last few weeks.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 09:34 PM

Ake--just answer the question about the $60 billion. Each situation is different. We are talking about Libya--only.

Your question-dodging skills are so advanced, you should consider a career move to politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 10:08 AM

Ron...I have absolutely no interest in "Col Gadaffi's billions"....money is a mirage and can be made to disappear at will.
Money to me has no worth, other than to keep me and mine fed, I look forward to the day when it and the stinking system it supports are consigned to the dustbin.

I am sure the billions will end up financing some nice "liberal" government somewhere and giving them the opportunity to bomb the shit out of somebody completely different.

"WE are talking about Libya only".....yes??   Don't you see what is happening?.....Didn't I tell you the masks would soon fall?

Egypt is the template, examine it well, for it is also the future.

The irony is, that you do not see the Trojan Horse; you who have everything to lose by way of ideology, supposed freedom, and "equality".....While I, who would be happy to see the end of this form of Capitalist "liberal democracy" call out the warning!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 10:14 AM

Bullshit rating.....0.06. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 05:25 PM

"money has no meaning".    That proves what kind of a fantasy world you live in.

The rest of us live in the real world.   With $60 billion, dear Muammar could rather handily carry out his plan--already announced--to bring devastation and terrorism to the West.

Which obviously is just peachy with you--since despite being asked multiple times how you would prevent it, you have come up with precisely zero solutions.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 05:26 PM

Excuse me, your quote was "money has no worth".    But my post is still totally valid.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 05:36 PM

The UN resolution all that time ago called for an immediate ceasefire. The UN Secretary General recently repeated this call.

It is still the only realistic way forward. Ceasefire followed by negotiations.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 04:39 AM

The Times are today rowing back from their position on Libya....calling it a mess and calling into question the motives of the insurgents.

They now visualise a split nation after a bloody civil war...just like Iraq.

I'm no conspirisy theorist, but could this have been the objective all along, was the Arab spring simply an excuse to de-stabilise the whole region?

We certainly have a history of using these tactics.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 05:39 AM

"They now visualise a split nation after a bloody civil war...just like Iraq."

Whatever happens in Tunisia; Egypt; Yemen; Syria; Bahrain and Libya will happen. It will happen because for the first time in any of those countries existences the "people" will decide and the "people can chose whatever they want.

Militant fundamentalist Islam is an evil and a force that will have to be confronted exactly as fascism was and exactly as communism was in their day. If what the people of the arab nations mentioned elect to chose extreme fundamentalist regimes to rule then that is no problem it merely serves to better define the enemy and steps can be taken counter their influence.

So what if Libya is split? By the way could you tell me when Iraq had its "civil war" and when it split? As far as I am aware Iraq still exists as a united country under a democratically elected government - more than can be said for - Tunisia; Egypt; Yemen; Syria; Bahrain or Libya.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 11:19 AM

Ah but who are the people?...are they the supporters of the Col, or the insurgents?

Would they still have been a rag tag gang without OUR help?

Are they about to confront "liberal democracy"?

"The people" is indeed a beast of muddy brain.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Stringsinger
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 11:56 AM

Don't underestimate the oppressive religious influence of Islam in Tripoli or Egypt.
This creates sectarian wars, Bahrain in particular.The idea that Iraq is unified or democratic is ludicrous, officials dodging IED's, military abuses by U.S. soldiers there, the pollution of water, the cancers rampant in the area, the corrupt political leaders that are subservient to American political interests and the specious training of the Iraqi police force of which those trainees will wind up killing American soldiers. They have a "higher calling" to Islam.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Stringsinger
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 12:01 PM

You can't bomb ideas into a foreign country. Education, not bombs is the answer.
Also, constructive behavior not destruction builds trust. Gadaffi may go but there will be another immediately to replace him unless the root causes are addressed, a re-education about the nature of fundamentalism and the damage it does, a relinquishing of political opportunism on the part of the conquerors, and the placing of military solutions into a lesser role in the solving of international affairs.

Look at Egypt where the Muslim Brotherhood is growing and the Egyptian military are calling the shots eroding the progress of the Arab Spring.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 01:36 PM

"the Egyptian military are calling the shots eroding the progress of the Arab Spring."
I thought that the army had taken interim control with popular consent.
Elections are pledged.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 08:51 AM

"ceasefire followed by negotiations".    No.    And what's more I think the poster knows why.    I have already alluded to the problem.

The Gaddafi regime still has more money and more weapons--thus more staying power. As the poster well knows, the Libyan war is already unpopular with sizable numbers of Westerners---including the poster himself.

Once the West stops bombing Gaddafi's forces, it will be very difficult to persuade various Western electorates to start up again.   But without that the rebels will be stymied.

Which I think is what the poster has in mind in his disingenuous call for a ceasefire.   Either that or he is not thinking through the consequences.

We may still see an unofficial ceasefire-- for Ramadan--and the problem I have noted will become obvious to all.

Also, if we accept a partition of Libya--against the wishes of both Gaddafi and the rebels--we accept the legitimacy of Gaddafi's regime.   And he will have a legal claim to at least part of the frozen funds. With results I have already noted.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 08:57 AM

"another to replace him" .    Meaning another vicious dictator who claims to embody Libya.

Not likely.

And if you are whining about the chancy prospects for a perfect democracy in Libya, please specify where in the world you have found such a democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 09:20 AM

Imperfect democracies can still be better than the alternative, and historically have improved over time.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 11:37 AM

Evidently "the assassination of General Younes" is not of interest to our community of ardent posters. I was thinking this assassination might be a critical tipping point in how the public within Libya, not to mention the Western World, views this uncivil war. But I've misjudged history in the making before.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 01:13 PM

The fact that it led to the uncovering and disbanding of a fifth column of Gaddafi loyalists in the midst of the rebels can't be anything but positive going forward. Also, France has released $259 million in frozen funds to the NTC. On the negative side the rebels lost control of the village of al-Jawsh at the foot of the strategic western Nafusa mountains. So it goes.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 02:50 PM

"The idea that Iraq is unified or democratic is ludicrous,"

Apparently a damn sight more unified and democratic than Ba'athist Syria at the moment.

"officials dodging IED's,"

Sure you are not confusing things with Afghanistan?

"military abuses by U.S. soldiers there,"

US troops have not been patroling the streets, roads or countryside of Iraq since 2009. The US at the moment have no front line combat units operating in Iraq. US Forces still present in the country are support troops and they will all have been withdrawn by the end of December this year.

"the pollution of water,"

I think that you will find that Saddam Hussein was responsible for that.

"the cancers rampant in the area,"

Absolutely amazed that all these cancers are all put down exclusively to use by US Forces of depleted uranium munitions, which you could actually grind up into a powder and eat by the bucketfull and it would not do you, or any of your prospective offspring one whit of harm. Apart from this the areas where these cancer occurences are "rampant" were not the scenes of major combat where DU munitions were used (Fallujah and Basra).

During Desert Storm there were no major armoured battles around either city. In the wake of the 2003 invasion there were only two battles in Fallujah, the second one all but 2% of the civilian population fled the battle and the insurgents had no armour so exactly what use would DU munitions be to the attacking force (USMC) - Answer to that is none whatsoever DU munitions are heavy for use against personnel there are far more effective options that are lighter meaning that your time over target is improved.

But let's see what did happen around Basra in the wake of Desert Storm - Remember the Shia uprising that the President of the US did all he could to foment then did the square root of F**k All to support. Saddam's military were alowed to fly helicopters Mil-24 Hind Gunships who are armed with cannon that fire DU ammunition. Basra and the Shat al-Arab home of the Ma'adan, the Marsh arabs where Saddam drained the marshes and poisoned the water by way of reprisals.

How about Fallujah, could all those "rampant" cancers have anything to do with Saddam's chemical and biological warfare reseach labs and manufacturing plants located in the area?

"the corrupt political leaders that are subservient to American political interests"

You mean the ones who are so subservient that they have told the Americans to quit by the end of this year? Or the ones who are so subservient that the bulk of all Iraqi oil exploration and field development licences have been awarded to those who were Iraq's traditional trading partners (Russia; China & France)

"and the specious training of the Iraqi police force of which those trainees will wind up killing American soldiers."

Best get their skates on then they have less than 5 months left to fulfil your prediction as all US troops will have left. Oh, but hang on though weren't you one of the camp who predicted that:

- The CPA was a permanent feature
- There would never be any elections
- Iraq would splinter in three
- The US would steal Iraq's Oil

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 04:23 PM

Teribus.....you must be fair, Iraqi women do not see much advantage from the new "democracy", it is simply a cover for resurrected Islamism.

Just like the insurgency in Libya.

Bobad.....I cant believe that you are swallowing that nonesense about Gadaffi loyalists. These people are Muslim fundamentalists, who were kept down by Gadaffi, in the same manner as fundamentalism in Iraq was punished by Saddam.

We have shot ourselves in the foot .....again!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 05:05 PM

Well Ake, the information I have came from an Al Jazeera reporter in Benghazi.

"Al Jazeera's Tony Birtley, reporting from Benghazi, said the battle was launched to subdue elements of Gaddafi's forces that had been operating as a "fifth column" within the opposition ranks.

He said that documents had been found at the base that linked the brigade to Gaddafi."

If you have a better source please share the info with us or are you just inventing facts that buttress your ideology?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 09:52 PM

"these people are Moslem fundamentalists". Some are.   And a good number in Libya, including, it appears, those in charge of the provisional government, are not

As witness, for instance, the explosion of press freedom in Benghazi.   All sorts of newspapers.    How many newspapers in Tripoli are not controlled by the Gaddafi regime?

But please don't let us stop you, Ake, from smearing any group with one of the labels guaranteed to be a red flag for Westerners--in your continuing pathetic attempt to justify deserting the rebels at this point.

And though it pains me to say it, pathetic is more and more the word for those trying to end the West's military support for the rebels.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 03:09 AM

My point Ron....as you well know, is that the people who killed the general belong to an "Islamic militia".....why would these people conceivably want to support Col Gadaffi?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 08:04 AM

akenaton-

It is certainly in the interests of Gadhafi to reinforce suspicion among the Rebels of the motives of their more conservative "comrades." It's hard to tell from our perspective whether this "Islamic militia unit" was a rogue element or a more general faction which includes a majority of Islamic militants.

One could conjure up a scenario where the CIA is well aware of the assassination plans (and evidently detailed plans have been recovered now) of the February 17 Martyrs' Brigade and was happy to watch them executed so their favorite general Klalifa Haftr, shipped back to Libya early in the campaign from his exile in Fairfax, Virginia, could assume control of the Rebel military operations. But that might be giving the CIA too much credit.

Meanwhile on the battlefield towns and villages in both the East and West are still switching back and forth between Rebel control and control by Gadhafi forces.

I may go back to playing chess, a brutal game but one where there is a minimum of collateral damage.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 02:08 PM

Ron....your writing style leaves much to be desired,do you really need to make so many personal and insulting observations?

Why don't you examine Charley's post....He and I disagree on a regular basis, yet I am beginning to look on him as a friend rather than an enemy.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 05:05 PM

Oh, and I misspelled "Khalifa Haftr" first name in my post above. He's certainly a curious character who surfaced in Libya at the end of March with a good deal of media fanfare, remarks of how sharp he looked in his non-military attire.

For a while he was actively vying for the job of commander in chief but General Younes appeared to come out on top. I can't seem to find any recent mention of Haftr. Maybe someone else will have better luck. He may no longer even be a major player. However, if I were writing a screen play for the Libyan Civil War, I would certainly cast him as a CIA operative.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 09:44 PM

Ake--just answer the question about the $60 billion.   Or admit you don't have an answer.   Your arguments are very weak.    If you don't like this being pointed out, you can come up with stronger ones.    Or possibly just not comment further.

People are being killed in Libya every day since this is dragging on.   It is no joke and sometimes it seems to me opponents of the West's military involvement actually think there is a reasonable alternative to seeing this through to Gaddafi's removal from power.   Any other alternative is a disaster.   Your obstructionism--and of course those others of your viewpoint-- helps nobody except Gaddafi, and as I said, your arguments are worse than threadbare.




Charley--Do you have any concrete evidence of CIA complicity in the Younis killing?   I have read the articles you linked to and see none.    Have I missed something?    CIA involvement is exactly the sort of spectre the Left is constantly seeing in any incident--so if there is something really there it needs to be brought out, and if there is nothing, the speculation only plays into the hands of Gaddafi.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 09:46 PM

"of course that of those who share your viewpoint"

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 09:53 PM

And Ake, you were in fact smearing the entire Libyan opposition to Gaddafi with a phrase guaranteed to be a red flag to Westerners.    Which is exactly what I said.   And such smearing is both a low and an effective tactic.   So you have shaky ground to stand on in complaining of an aggressive post in response.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 03:27 AM

Not so Ron....right from the start I have said that the insurrectionists are comprised of diverse groups, amonst those groups are some misty eyed idealists I am sure.

In fact, I was once such a person myself.....but the pills worked wonders!

From most of the reports, it appears that radical Islamists and opportunist tribal factions make up the bulk, or the most powerful elements of the insurgency, backed of course by countries who have a serious selfish interest in ousting the Col.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 09:18 AM

Ron-

"any concrete evidence of CIA complicity in the Younis killing?"

The short answer, which should not be surprising, is "No!" I have no contacts within the CIA and they haven't admitted any complicity publicly.

General Khalifa Haftr has been linked by some bloggers to the CIA but evidently only because his home in exile in Fairfax, Virginia, is within five miles of CIA headquarters. And no one I'm aware of has suggested that Haftr was directly involved in the assassination of General Younes, but Haftr is logically the Rebel general who will benefit the most from his death. Connecting the dots as I've been doing is not conclusive proof of anything but does raise a question that I think merits further research.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 09:41 AM

My point is that even speculating about a CIA connection plays into the hands of those who want the West to end military involvement--and thus into Gaddafi's hands. So it's not helpful. The rebels have enough problems without fearing that their ostensible supporters are killing their leaders.

The paranoia should be on Gaddafi's side. Which is why the $10 million on his head would have worked wonders.    There doesn't even have to be a successful plot to kill Gaddafi--consider Hitler's behavior after 20 July 1944.    Didn't exactly help his war effort.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 10:20 AM

Ah, we are not allowed to speculate?

Sounds ominous!

I thought you were a democrat Ron?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 10:22 AM

My understanding is that the Younis killing could have been a result of tribal rivalries. It could have been revenge for something Younis did while a Gaddafi general.. It could have been financed by Gaddafi.   Or other possible factors.   Or a combination of the above.

Point is:   the perpetrators should be caught and punished. And the entire Gaddafi opposition should return to the business at hand:   removing Gaddafi from power.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 01:22 PM

Ron-

Bad news is bad news.

Here's an interesting clip from today's Guardian:

Muammar Gaddafi's son, Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, said he was forging a behind-the-scenes alliance with radical Islamist elements among the Libyan rebels to drive out their more liberal-minded confederates . It was difficult to assess how serious Gaddafi was about this. At one point he said: "Libya will look like Saudi Arabia, like Iran. So what?" Guma al-Gamaty, a London-based co-ordinator for the rebel National Transitional Council, said Gaddafi was "bluffing" in order to "scare the west". "There's nothing in it," he said, pointing out that the Gaddafis had in the past claimed that the rebels were Islamists; his comments now proved those accusations were "totally false", he said. Islamist leader Ali Sallabi said he had had conversations with Gaddafi but dismissed the idea that they had formed an alliance.

Very cleaver, how fast Gadhafi moves to reinforce Rebel disarray in the wake of the assassination of General Younes.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 08:00 AM

Teribus's post at 31 Jul 11 - 05:39 AM above is exceptional nonsense even by his own standards. He accepts that kicking out Gadaffi could make way for a worse regime regime (albeit democratic). But that's ok, he says - we'll deal with it. Another war? And does he think that one would also be legitimised by Arab-league endorsement? (
His whole tack is risible in any case, as evidenced by the west's response to belligerent islamic fundamentalism in Iran.

The extraordinary thing about this thread is the determination to ignore what's happening in Syria. Horrors so bad that even Saudi's King Abdullah has condemned them. Yet Ron solemnly declares that we must confine ourselves to Libya and ignore the wider context. No wonder. His argument that Gadaffi's unpleasant style of leadership justifies war falls to the ground when Syria is considered. For as I pointed out dozens of posts ago, however unpleasant Gadaffi may be, Assad is infinitely unpleasanter.

All Ron can do is witter on about Gadaffi's $60bn. He fails to take on board that Libya by international norms has very light defences. Get real, Ron. You can't build a national defensive capability for $60bn. And it would take vastly more than that to give it offensive capability. Oh, and it would take many years, and the whole scenario of Gadaffi withdrawing some cash and buying some guns is grossly improbable anyway.

As again I said earlier, Libya was a soft option for the west, and they're struggling even with that. Syria on the other hand is armed to the hilt, which is why its wantonly brutal regime will continue unchecked if the US and UK have anything to do with it.

As Ake told you, Ron, it's not about money. It's about will. And where there's a will there's a way. Witness the humble Taliban's success in taking out (in open warfare) some guys from the unit that murdered Bin Laden.

As for all the prattling about democracy, that's bollocks. For the west the flag of democracy is no more than a flag of convenience - an excuse to replace Saddam, for instance, with a regime that suppresses women's rights. Kissinger, for all his faults, was at least being honest when he said in relation to the other 9/11: "I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its people. The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 10:09 AM

What I find risible is Peter K's position is that one size must fit all. Whilst ignoring what caused UN (Note that Peter - UN) intervention in Libya.

For years Libya was a pariah state which sponsored terrorism throughout the world and was isolated and contained. Then came 9/11 and the post-9/11 US Threat Evaluations where Libya found itself quite near the top of a list of countries that US Intelligence Agencies compiled as potential candidates for the role of "Rogue State", the list also included Iraq; Iran; Syria & North Korea.

This gave Col Muammar Gaddafi pause for thought particularly as he watched the heat being ratcheted up against the country on the top of the list - Iraq. Neither France, China or Russia were whispering in Gaddafi's ear as they were advising Saddam that, "The US are only bluffing. They won't do anything they can't do anything because we'll use our veto to stop them."

Then in March 2003 the USA took out the #1 Candidate for "Rogue State". Gaddafi folded because he knew something about the US Intelligence Agencies list of likely "Rogue State" candidates - ALL were running secret nuclear weapons programmes aided, abetted and facilitated by Dr A.Q.Khan's network.

Gaddafi lost his nerve and dramatically renounce ALL of Libya's WMD programmes and in the process of "coming clean" he led the revelation of Khan's highly illegal network and North Korea's involvement in it.

There is only one reason you run a secret nuclear weapons programme - it means that you intend to use those weapons offensively - a secret nuclear weapons programme has no deterrent value whatsoever.

As the layers of Khan's onion were pealed away Iran crash stopped its weapons programme in 2003 to see which way the wind was going to blow, but their secret uranium enrichment plants were now out in the open and known to the IAEA (Iran's programme was now no longer a secret so it's threat was neutralised) Syria's links with A.Q.Khan were investigated and Israeli aircraft with the assistance of Turkey wiped out the Syrian facility with an airstrike, Syria's protests were muted and no-one was allowed access to the site until Syrian and North Korean "experts" dismantled the site and sanitised it (Unfortunately not efficiently enough for the IAEA inspectors they detected traces of radio-active materials).

Come the "Arab Spring" and Peter K wants me to hypocritically condemn Libyan Rebels for seeking a democratic election in Libya whilst I must support Hamas in Gaza??

The Arab League requested UN intervention in Libya, they did not request intervention in either The Yemen; Bahrain or in Syria. Probably because whilst the Arab League and GCC could regionally influence what was happening in Yemen; Bahrain & Syria - they could not in Libya (Both of Libya's neighbours east and west were in turmoil having just experienced their own "revolutions").

Unfortunately degrees of unpleasantness do not dictate what the UN can or cannot do. What is happening in Syria is strictly an internal matter, what was happening in Libya in February and March this year would have been strictly internal too had Gaddafi not resorted to hiring in Mercenaries to kill Libyan citizens.

On degrees of unpleasantness Peter what did the UN do about Darfur? Nothing - Right? Much worse than either Libya; Syria or what was happening in Iraq at that time. "Worst humanitarian disaster of our time" said Kofi Annan, but he refused to term it genocide as GWB did, because then the UN would have been automatically compelled by its charter to act.

The middle-east is tricky enough as it is Syria has Iran as an ally and has the potential to set the region alight so it requires extremely careful handling which is why your "one-size-fits-all" cannot work.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 12:10 PM

Teribus, despite your particular emphasis on the point, I think you'll find that the UN is NOT engaged in Libya. The UN resolution committed no-one to war and certainly does not mean that this is a UN offensive.

There is only one reason you run a secret nuclear weapons programme - it means that you intend to use those weapons offensively - a secret nuclear weapons programme has no deterrent value whatsoever. Really, Teribus? Really?? Couldn't there be another reason? Could it not be that if a WMD programme is openly declared, countries who already have nuclear weapons try to interfere? (For some reason they are very proscriptive about who can join the club. Thus Israel ok, Iran no way.)

...what was happening in Libya in February and March this year would have been strictly internal too had Gaddafi not resorted to hiring in Mercenaries to kill Libyan citizens. Ingenious, but sheer tosh.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 05:36 PM

Peter's right Teribus.....is our war machine not being used to kill Libyan citizens?

Our leaders no longer even bother to contradict the claims that we are engaged in regime change in our national interst.

The bit about mercenaries justifying our involvement was particularly lame.
You must have had to really force yourself to write that.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 06:00 PM

UN member states are involved in Libya at the specific request of the Security Council - The Resolution is UNSCR 1973 and that is fact not fiction.

So   "...what was happening in Libya in February and March this year would have been strictly internal too had Gaddafi not resorted to hiring in Mercenaries to kill Libyan citizens.

"Ingenious, but sheer tosh." Eh??

Care to point out anywhere in the quoted passage where I am in error. Gaddafi, or his sons most certainly gave the orders but large numbers of his officers and troops refused to obey them, so Gaddafi had to bring in mercenaries recruited from Niger, Mali, Algeria, Ghana and Burkina Faso.

Care to tell me where Assad in Syria is using mercenaries? Are Iran supplying the Syrian military with troops from their Revolutionary Guards?

"Could it not be that if a WMD programme is openly declared, countries who already have nuclear weapons try to interfere?" - PeterK

As the countries involved are signatories of the Nuclear NPT they have to follow the terms of the treaty should they wish to leave and develop nuclear weapons. It is all very well laid out and explained in the treaty document. By following to the letter the procedure for this then cuts the country off from receipt of technical aid or assistance from all other signatories, this did not suit Iran, Libya, Syria or North Korea.

Israel is not a signatory member of the Nuclear NPT her nuclear industry roughly dates the same as that of the UK and France and predates the NPT by about 13 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 06:28 PM

Whilst ignoring what caused UN (Note that Peter - UN) intervention in Libya.

Huff and puff till the cows come home, Teribus, but it won't ever make that statement right. It would have been more dignified to apologise.

On the question of mercenaries, you are flailing at a straw man. I do not question at all that Gadaffi used mercenaries. I was just laughing at your claim that it was Gadaffi's use of mercenaries that provoked the US bombing.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 01:21 AM

So appeals to the UN by the Arab League and the GCC played no part then Peter, is that what you are attempting to put across as the truth? If so you will have a tough time of it, because if memory serves me correctly it was not until they got involved that the UN acted.

Had there been no UNSCR 1973 would the bombing have occured? If that were true the bombing would have started earlier - it didn't. So the intervention in Libya is a direct result of actions taken and resolutions passed by the UN.

No huffing and puffing Peter K just plain old well documented and recorded fact. Ignore it if you wish but that will not alter the fact of the matter.

The Libyan Leader introduced a foreign or outside element to what up until then had been a purely domestic matter, that is what troubled the Arab League and the GCC, and they went to the UNSC. Again a fact. You don't like facts do you Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 10:08 PM

Gaddafi no longer able to mount credible offensive, continues recruitment of ruthless mercenaries -- Lieutenant-General Charles Bouchard.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/08/11/gaddafi-unable-to-launch-offensive-nato-commander/

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 12:41 AM

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