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BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Charley Noble Date: 05 Apr 11 - 04:11 PM Ake- So lest I misunderstand you, do you have any criticism left for Col Gadaffi? I may have missed some of his good points in the last 40 years. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: GUEST,999 Date: 05 Apr 11 - 04:06 PM Whether or not I agree with you, Ake, I do have one question. What should the world do if TMWATNs wins and begin to execute the rebels forces? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: akenaton Date: 05 Apr 11 - 02:56 PM How cynically Teribus promotes the manipulation of others. I suppose even he will admit that if conditions worsen in the UK or US due to the recent failure of the capitalist system, unemployment rates rise, public services are attacked, pensions and savings disappear.......should an armed socialist insurrection arise to combat these attacks, our government would react in exactly the same manner as Col Gadaffi's regime. The army would be let loose on the insurgents.....they would be massacred in the "National Interest" During a lifetime of politics watching, I have observed that "Democracy", "Sovereignty", "Freedom"etc, revert to the status of words with many meanings.....when the system or regime is under threat To attemt to implant Western style "democracy" in Libya, is as mad as our recent adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan....a gift to the fundamentalists of Islam. Many observers see the hands of Al Quaeda behind the insurgency, and there may be some truth in that, but I see a portion of the insurgents as young people doing what young people do, without much regard for the consequences. I see the vultures circling over Libya, as they circled over Iraq, A pudgy spoiled public shoolboy...(Bunter Cameron) hoping to earn his spurs by bringing down his very own Saddam. An unwilling Obama pushed forward by the White House female birds of prey. An unpopular French president drooling over oil rights for a victorious, murderous, Europe, and hovering over all, the black wings of Islamic fundamentalism". We should all be ashamed of what we foster....and the shite we talk of human rights and equality.....welcome to the real world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: goatfell Date: 05 Apr 11 - 12:57 PM the bully boys of the wworld are at it again and then there will 'freindly' fire so watch out you british |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: J-boy Date: 05 Apr 11 - 12:27 AM "Mankind must put an end to war or war must put an end to mankind."-JFK. He knew the absurdity and horror of it up close. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Teribus Date: 05 Apr 11 - 12:22 AM "War sucks. But more importantly it is stupid." Just as well then that we are not at war with anyone isn't it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: J-boy Date: 05 Apr 11 - 12:11 AM War sucks. But more importantly it is stupid. We have to quit this ridiculous game before it's too late. We are living on borrowed time. Our luck is about to run out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Charley Noble Date: 04 Apr 11 - 02:13 PM Here's today's update from Al Jareera with regard to Rebel efforts in and around Brega and the successful evacuation via a NATO ship from Misurata of hundreds of injured fighters and civilians: Click here for article Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Apr 11 - 01:27 PM My sympathies were originally with the civilians who launched peaceful protests against the Gadhafi regime. The regime chose to respond with violence. Since then the situation has grown more and more complicated, and I frankly don't know what to make of it now. (shrug) Nor do I know quite what to make of the various western responses to it. Perhaps they find it as confusing as I do. ;-) I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case. At any rate, I have no stake at present in arguing with anyone here about it. I'm simply watching to see what will happen next. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Teribus Date: 04 Apr 11 - 10:20 AM To answer your question Charlie, I see the rebels located in the east of the country's cause no different now from when the UN resolution was passed. The UN resolution is so worded that it makes it very easy for those involved to provide an umbrella of air cover to act and prevent Gaddafi's forces overwhelming the rebels in Benghazi. The fighting by rebel forces in the west of Libya is a little harder to support as they are already fighting inside the city of Misrata. How I think it should be played for here on in? 1: It was extremely important that France, Qatar and now Italy have officially recognised the rebel ruling council as the "Government of Libya". That semantically overcomes the accusation about interfering in a civil war and bi-lateral agreements can be made between those "Governments". 2: Gaddafi apparently if reports are to be believed is furiously casting round to find a means of ending this. If both sides agree to hold talks (Note: Agree to hold talks - Not actually hold talks) then the UN can order in "boots-on-the-ground" in the form of a "Peacekeeping Force" and that will form a physical barrier between the warring factions. Normally these troops are pretty ineffectual but the force can be tailored to meet the needs of the situation. Ideally this force would be provided by the member states of the Arab League but it must not initially include troops from any "western" nation. Once Gaddafi's forces attack the "Peacekeepers" as I am sure that they would do, then the gloves can come off and other troops can be deployed to help the UN contingent on the ground and take on the aggressors, this basically is Misrata's only hope and it is important as it is one of Gaddafi's two oil terminals. 3: Time is the key, already the rebels are beginning to form a more disciplined fighting force. The rebels are being reinforced in terms of arms and supplies from Egypt, whereas Gaddafi's forces are becoming more and more isolated internationally, unfortunately there are massive stockpiles of arms and munitions inside Libya. Airstrikes under the present "Rules of Engagement" have hit some of these but it must be assumed that Gaddafi's forces still possess sufficient material to engage the rebels. Alternatively Gaddafi's troops hurried offensive may indicate that sufficient of these stores have been destroyed and he must defeat the rebels quickly, or grab as much as the country as possible before he reaches the point where he must agree to talk. 4: Gaddafi's forces have altered their tactics and have abandoned conventional strikes using armour and artillery, they too now roam about in "technicals" and must appear very similar to the rebels they are fighting to observers and from the air. This is where UAV's might come into the picture as they have an extended "loiter time" over the battlefield and can "pick-off" targets at will. 5: Italy relies strongly on oil & gas from Libya, as do Germany and France, so for Europe the only outcome that is in anyway acceptable to them is one in which Gaddafi is removed, because should he survive this "rebellion" then any idea of the rapproachment with the west can be thrown right out of the window. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Charley Noble Date: 04 Apr 11 - 07:43 AM This report just in: "Reporting from Tripoli, Libya— Italy on Monday formally recognized the rebel government of eastern Libya, dealing yet another blow to the embattled regime of Col. Moammar Kadafi. Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini said Rome would open an office in rebel-held territory and formally recognize the Benghazi-based Libyan National Council as the only representative of the country, which Italy once ruled as a colonial ward and to which it maintains deep cultural and economic ties. Italy joins France as the second Western country to formally recognize the rebel government." Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: GUEST,999 Date: 03 Apr 11 - 10:26 PM Regis Debray wrote the book on little wars. This is NOT a little war. When disorganized (read undisciplined troops) engage disciplined troops, even at or near equal strengths, the disciplined troops win. We tend to think that 'will' matters. It indeed does, but only when that will is supported by arms. Tanks vs men: who wins? Many who post here likely remember 1956 or 1989 when that was demonstrated and shown beyond doubt. The UN mandate has laid out the rules of this engagement. The rebels are ill-disciplined troops. The government troops are poor as troops, but they have practiced (I prefer practised as the verb). The reason Castro's--and yes, 'Che's'--people won was due to the inability of the Batista government to keep it's troops in line. Soldiers will die in those kinds of fights if the ideology is entrenched. AND they will make their defeaters wish they'd never got into it in the first place. The French at Dien Bien Phu fought valiantly. An acquaintance of mine was in the FFL, and he knew and knows the requirements of being in a 'unit' like that. Part of the deal is that you volunteer and then train and then do the job. Period. If you ain't game for that--and it always seems like a good idea at the time--then don't join, and 'Don't cry for me Argentina'. Problem here is that the troops are big on rhetoric and short on munitions, discipline, training and 'end game philosophy'. When men--and now women (a philosophy with which I disagree), although I think women should also have the right to 'die for their country'--and although I agree with Patton that it's my responsibility to make some other bastard die for his country--unless there is a unified command, there is NO command. The rebels may die in a 'last stand' (and that will be an example of a superior force being met by resolve and study by Tonka Wakon (Crazy Horse in my world): they will not do so because of lack of resolve; they will do so because of a lack of arms. And we will say later that there was nothing we could do. Frank, a man whose philosophy I admire has three times refused to tell me what WE should do when in the process of non-violently protesting an egregious wrong the people against whom we protest hit us. Well, I suppose we are supposed to get hit. Not me, and not anymore. Been there, done it, and fuck that. Think as you wish, but please understand we are not cohesive in these terms. We did this before in Hungary and Czechslovakia. We were wrong then, and we would be equally wrong now. imo Those wishing to castigate me for this view may do so, but two people are the only ones I will answer: Teribus and Little Hawk.. No offense to anyone else. BM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Charley Noble Date: 03 Apr 11 - 09:05 PM Teribus- I think you might agree that unless NATO forces resumes aggressive bombing of Gadhafi's front-line troops, the Rebels may collapse entirely. At this point it seems to me that the Rebels need to establish some kind of defensible front-line position while they regroup for training and new supplies. Of course front lines in Libya appear to be endemically permeable. No Western country in its right mind is going to commit more than trainers and special forces on the ground. What do you think the prospect is for the Rebels now? Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Teribus Date: 03 Apr 11 - 08:05 PM Hey Stringsinger we are talking here about the "Gaddafi Precedent" i.e. a Government deliberately turning its armed forces against the population of the country. Now stop f**king about and tell me how many of their own population have Hamas killed in Gaza, and how many of thier own population have Israel killed in Israel. Seems a pretty logical question to ask, now give me an answer, don't wriggle. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: GUEST,999 Date: 03 Apr 11 - 03:31 PM "The problem in taking sides in a civil war is that the US doesn't really know who they are supporting. The so-called rebels might be just as dictatorial and authoritarian as Gaddafi." Don't you mean that the UN doesn't know who it's supporting? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Stringsinger Date: 03 Apr 11 - 03:11 PM The problem in taking sides in a civil war is that the US doesn't really know who they are supporting. The so-called rebels might be just as dictatorial and authoritarian as Gaddafi. The trouble is that when you try to resolve differences with weaponry, the risk is run of an out-of-control outcome. There are hawks who religiously subscribe to this mode of solving political problems but they create as many or more problems as they solve. The biggest mistake they made in Egypt is to trust their military to make decisions. The Egyptian military love to check that all their women are virgins. What about the Second World War? Could it have been resolved differently? Evidence is coming out now that says that it could have with a greater understanding of peaceful non-violent resistance. I refer everyone to Gene Sharp. He can be obtained by search engines. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Stringsinger Date: 03 Apr 11 - 03:01 PM Teribus, the Israeli government has second-class citizens in it's midst. Those who have been banned to the hinterlands (bantustans) have been mass slaughtered. The age-old question prevails. Who was there first? Not likely that ardent Zionists are about to kill each other. They reserve that right for others. With this logic, the white men killed no Native Americans. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: akenaton Date: 03 Apr 11 - 10:58 AM The people who are at the "wrong time and the wrong place" are the coalition of the unwilling......US! Mr Obama actually seems too decent for the politics game. He is being pushed into another "dumb" war by his arch enemy Warrior princess Clinton and her associates in the White House. Playing politics with peoples lives. Beware America! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: bobad Date: 03 Apr 11 - 07:02 AM "Friday's air strike came as rebels shot tracer fire into the air to celebrate the entry of an advance column into Brega. "It was a mistake" by the rebels, Khamis said. "The aircraft thought they were coming under attack and fired on the convoy." Speaking to Al Jazeera earlier, Mustafa Gheriani, a Transitional National Council spokesman, said the loss of lives on Friday was very much regretted. "However, we understand that collateral damage may also take place and we do accept it, because we look at the big picture which saving more lives. "So a few people being victims of circumstances or of being at the wrong time or the wrong place it is more or less very bad luck," Gheriani said. Al Jazeera |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: akenaton Date: 03 Apr 11 - 03:56 AM Back to Libya, Fourteen insurgents and medics killed yesterday in UN backed air strikes.....by accident of course. Arab opinion hardening against "Western involvement" Cameron, Sarkozy and the other adventurers could find they have bet the wrong horse once again. Mr Obama's hesitancy may be vindicated and Hillary shown for what she really is. This is getting interesting |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Teribus Date: 02 Apr 11 - 06:22 PM Stringsinger, tell me how many people inside Gaza have been killed by Hamas. Tell me how many people have been killed inside Israel by the Israeli Government. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Stringsinger Date: 02 Apr 11 - 05:38 PM "As far as applying the Gaddafi Precedent goes, there would be a stronger case for action against Hamas in Gaza than against Israel." When you compare the amount of casualties of the Palestinians, they are far greater than what Israel has suffered. In their actions, there might not be that much difference between Gaddafi and Netanyahu. Throw in Copasset in Indonesia, Kalifa in Bahrain, Assad in Syria, Salleh in Yemen and Bush in the U.S. And now we have a runaway President who would be king. As to the terrorist label, there are so many examples in the world from so many countries that it becomes a matter of partisan name-calling and the term has lost its meaning. The argument for bombing anyone today becomes sheer sophistry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Ron Davies Date: 02 Apr 11 - 03:44 PM So now supposedly the rebels have asked for a ceasefire. How's that for throwing a monkeywrench into the business? There are some conditions, one being Cadhafi's forces withdrawing from cities they are now besieging. Another: "freedom of expression for our western brothers". Source: al-Jazeera 2 April 2011. So we'd probably take this news with a sizable grain of salt, to say the least, unless confirmed elsewhere. Of course the report is true and if Gadhafi rejects these terms, it might give the rebels a stronger hand---more clearly the moral high ground. Which might result in more direct military aid from the West. But now we're obviously into the area of total speculation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Charley Noble Date: 02 Apr 11 - 11:02 AM Bodad- Have to be more careful. Thanks for the correction. I was wondering why there was a report of a Libyan jet doing a bombing run. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: bobad Date: 02 Apr 11 - 10:21 AM Charley, apparently the rebels are reporting that they have retaken Brega but the report you linked to dates from March 3. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Charley Noble Date: 02 Apr 11 - 10:03 AM Evidently the Rebels have driven Gadhafi forces out of Brega again according to this detailed report from Al Jazeera: click here for report! Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 02 Apr 11 - 04:43 AM It was wrong to go into Libya. It was not thought out properly and they seem to have completely overlooked the 'rebels' are nothing more than local people who've got carried away with a spur of the moment idea, rather than a pre-planned and well thought out decision, to take back their country. They were saying today on BBC News how the rebels are now being given AK47s, with no training..and guess what, in their excitement (and hysteria) they're firing these things off, wounding and killing each other and themselves...They seemed to find this almost er...puzzling. Puzzling? WHY would they be feeling that way???? I've not got all the ins and outs as to why we're over there, but I tell you this, it's got hardly anything to do with protecting yer average Libyan person in the street..I find it all quite sinister, to be honest.. Never mind, I expect that eventually MwaMwa and his government will all flee to......England...and set up home over here...and Mr. Al Libyani will take over, issue AK47s to ALL his citizens, increase the price of oil by 600% and life will be just hunkydory for everyone. I wonder if we're going to give Mousa Kousa a Council House? I've heard there's one going next door to Chicken Licken here in Torquay...and apparently Turkey Lurkey and Henny Penny from Liverpool, have put in a request for him to come and live in their road, as they feel it would be great to buy Mousa Kousa an alcohol-free beer down at their local... Oh dear me...what an horrendous palava, eh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: akenaton Date: 02 Apr 11 - 04:25 AM BBC news Sat. Insurgents are using warplanes to bomb govt troops in "UN no fly zone"....civilians have been killed in rebel air strike. UN arms embargoe does not seem to apply to insurgents who may already have been supplied with weapons in contravention of UN resolution. We are using terrorism to affect regime change in what is basically an insurection, at a time when our own people are being punished for the failure of capitalism. Could this be an organised distraction from what is being done to workers, pensioners, and the sick in the United Kingdom? Mr Obama seems to have been right to pause and think hard about US involvement in Libya......unfortunately Hillary the Hawk is ready to strike, not only at Libya, but at Mr Obama himself. As I said years ago inviting Hill n' Bill into his admin. was Mr Obama's biggest and terminal mistake. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Apr 11 - 12:53 PM He "chooses" to live there? ;-) Come on. That's a pointless remark, but one I hear people make often when they are looking to take a shot at someone over some political opinion the person has expressed. It isn't that he chose to live there, bobad, it's that life itself placed him there when he was born, same as it did you, me, and millions of other people who were born in the western countries. It's the hand he was dealt, and so he deals with it. He pays the taxes, because he has no choice about the matter. He is not obliged to agree with all the policies of the society he lives in just because he lives there. For him to uproot his entire life and move somewhere else to some complete other culture just to satisfy your rhetorical need to take a shot at him would be...ridiculous. ;-D And even if he did move somewhere else...anywhere else...it's very probable that he would disagree with certain aspects of that society too. So would he then be obliged to move yet again to some other culture? And where would his search for total approval of a culture end? ;-D Nowhere, that's where. He didn't choose anything about it. He IS there. Period. And he disagrees with his culture's political conduct in a number of respects. That does not mean he "supports" it with his taxes or any other crap like that nor is it a contradiction. It's a fact that arises out of the fact that life is not as dead simple as your jibe to Akenaton would appear to make it. I also think that the West practices a great deal of terrorism...and I have no intention of moving away from here, because my whole life is here, my friends are here, and much that I love is here...nor do I support that terrorism when I pay my taxes. I simply pay my taxes because there's no way of avoiding doing so, that's all. I accept the fact that I live in a complicated and imperfect world where things are not perfect and never will be, and there's not a hell of a lot I can do about that. Don't ask me why I don't move somewhere else, okay? Cos it's a damn silly question. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Charley Noble Date: 01 Apr 11 - 12:50 PM With regard to the 1986 bombing having killed Gadhafi's infant daughter, Wkipedia summary raises some questions: "According to medical staff in the nearby hospital, two dozen people arrived in military uniform and two without uniform. Total Libyan casualties are estimated at 60, including casualties at the bombed airbases. However, the regime created a propaganda campaign with varying stories about killed civilians. For example, the regime's media claimed that Gaddafi's "adopted daughter" had been killed. The name "Hanna" was given to the press. Nobody had ever heard of such daughter. Information about her was also conflicting, for example, her age varied from 12 months to 6 years. Despite absurdity and variations of the stories, the campaign was so successful that a large proportion of the Western press reported the regime's stories as facts." But there is little doubt that "some civilians" were killed in the retaliation bombing raid, as authorized by President Reagan. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: bobad Date: 01 Apr 11 - 12:26 PM "my point is that we in the developed West, regularly practice terrorism" Yet you choose to live there and support it with your taxes and see no contradiction with that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) Date: 01 Apr 11 - 12:14 PM 300. Bombs away ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: akenaton Date: 01 Apr 11 - 12:03 PM Exactly so pdq......my point is that we in the developed West, regularly practice terrorism......we hardly own the high ground! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: pdq Date: 01 Apr 11 - 11:54 AM "American bombers have already blown Gadaffi's infant daughter to pieces..." So when was this supposed to have happened? You don't mean the 1986 retalliation for the bombing of several night clubs that hosted US military in Africa and Europe? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: akenaton Date: 01 Apr 11 - 11:44 AM Sorry Joe :0).....that was me again.....got my N de P fixed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: GUEST Date: 01 Apr 11 - 11:41 AM "Someone needs to re-arm and re-supply the rebels." WHY?.....and who the fuck are the rebels? What do they really want? Are they larger in number than those who support their government. Why is it any of OUR business, when dozens of other dictators who are "friends" of ours, treat their people much worse than Gadaffi? American bombers have already blown Gadaffi's infant daughter to pieces, now we are practicing terrorism against him and his people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Charley Noble Date: 31 Mar 11 - 10:12 PM McGrath- What you are ignoring in your post is how dynamic war fronts are in an environment such as Libya. The nation, what's left of it, is clustered along the coastal highway. And the front can change dynamically back and forth hundreds of miles, as it did several times in World War 2 and as it has done in the last few weeks. There may be a final strawman who breaks this camel's back, and Gadhafi is down for the count. And then there might well be mass confusion of who's in charge of the country then. I don't think there will be a stalemate but the process may take another month to work itself out. It would still be a major political mistake for Western powers to send in anything else but trainers and spotters. I doubt if the Arab League quite has the stomach to send in its own "peace-keeping" force but that would be an interesting twist. Someone needs to re-arm and re-supply the rebels. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 Mar 11 - 12:59 PM It's quite possible that most Libyans prefer the rebels. On the other hand it is also possible that most Libyans prefer Gaddafi. Nobody in public life or the media seem in the least interesting in addressing this question, or looking seriously at what kind of Libya is likely to emerge if the rebels win. Those are important questions. Either way it's pretty clear that the only possibility of a military victory by the rebels would lie with pretty massive military intervention that would go far beyond trying to prevent civilian casualties - and which would in fact, as in Iraq or Afghanistan, involve inflicting very sizeable civilian casualties. Even if that were seen as desirable, it isn't on the cards. Some kind of stalemate ceasefire probably with a de facto partition seems to be the most likely outcome. Since the oil, and therefore the money, is in the East, that doesn't leave Gaddafi with a great deal to play with, and his prospects of holding on for very long do not seem that great. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: GUEST,999 Date: 31 Mar 11 - 12:58 PM Listen up you banana-eating hairy old goat--keep this shit up and I will tell Little Hawk that you're pissing on the parade and HE'LL deal with you! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp Date: 31 Mar 11 - 11:28 AM Camels find that sort of specist rhetoric quite offensive, Roscoe. You should hear what they say about horses! - Chongo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: GUEST,999 Date: 31 Mar 11 - 10:33 AM "And perhaps we'll also learn about the problems of war by committee." Yeah to that, Ron. A camel is a horse designed by a committee. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) Date: 31 Mar 11 - 09:32 AM An ex British soldier who served in Northern Ireland was on Radio 4 this morning, he read out an article that appeared in an Issue of the Republican News he obtained while serving over there, this paper was printed by Sinn Fein. It appears Moussa Koussa was a hero of republicans for the part he played when the IRA secured quantities of weapons and explosives from Gaddafi's Libya in the 1980's. It appears he praised republicans for their attacks on the British Government due to their support and assistance of America during the US Air Force's bombing attacks on Tripoli and Benghazi in 1986. Maybe they will take him into their care. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Ron Davies Date: 31 Mar 11 - 08:48 AM As I said, time is not on the rebels' side. The time for coming up with objections is over--in fact long gone. Hess defected in 1941. How much longer did the war go on? This one is much more likely to turn out right soon--if the West does what's necessary. We may devoutly wish for the Gadhafi regime to self-destruct. But Gadhafi has told us--more than once--how likely that is. It's time to believe him. And i still say a $10 million price on his head--informally offered to his mercenaries--might well do wonders. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Ron Davies Date: 31 Mar 11 - 08:39 AM One more thing: Western commentators have to stop talking about how x percentage of the rebels are al-Qaeda fighters. If the rebels lose, who will be there to pick up the pieces? No points for guessing al-Qaeda.--that's too obvious--except to those who refuse to see. If the rebels lose that will drive the survivors--and supporters throughout the world-- right into the arms of al-Qaeda. Look, it's simple: either this is a fight worth fighting or it's not. Our leaders have said that it is worth it. So they have to do what's necessary to win--and we have to support them in this--and pressure them to follow through. And stop whining about it. And perhaps we'll also learn about the problems of war by committee. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Charley Noble Date: 31 Mar 11 - 08:34 AM Ron- There is no easy answer evidently in the short run, since the short run has crumbled once again in the face of trained and more heavily armed Gadhafi forces. "Training them...And doing all this immediately" has its own contradictions. I think what's happening now is the recognition on the part of the US and its allies that if they want the Rebels to succeed they'll have to invest more time and money in training and arming them. It's also possible by demonstrating that resolve (by leaks to the media) that more of Gadhafi's inner circle will desert him, salvaging what they can. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Ron Davies Date: 31 Mar 11 - 08:11 AM "I can't see that arming the rebels" would guarantee success. And NATO now says arming them would not be covered by the UN mandate. Brilliant. So let's watch them lose in slow motion-- ( Mudcat hand-wringing expertise again is here again in all its glory.) Rather than doing what needs to be done: Air support all the time--including when they are attacking Gadhafi's forces. Recognizing them as the only legitimate Libyan government. Arming them with weapons at least comparable to those of Gadhafi's forces. Training them. And providing intelligence. And doing all this immediately, Since time is not on the rebels' side. The longer we wait to do all this, the more we will hear about how NATO countries can't afford this, and the more likely NATO will give up. I would in fact hazard a guess that part of Mudcat opposition to helping the rebels militarily is the fact that in the UK the government is Conservative. Conversely part of the reason some US posters support it is that Obama is in charge here. Since if the rebels are finally defeated--with the bloodbath just postponed from a few weeks ago--there will be huge recriminations against the Western governments which did not follow through with actions necessary to prevent it. And those Western governments' popularity with their own citizens will take a huge plunge. Which is just fine with some UK posters. And not fine with US posters--though I think US posters who support the rebels probably do so for the right reasons--preventing the bloodbath and preventing Gadhafi from any claim on the $33 billion frozen--which he would then use to build himself a nuclear bomb, among other things. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) Date: 31 Mar 11 - 05:51 AM Apparently Mr Kousa has announced that he 'intends' to sever his links with the regime. Unless, presumably, the regime wins. In which case he's just here for a spot of shopping. I agree, McGrath. The rebels are starting to remind me of the schoolboys in 'Gregory's Girl'. If they're really serious maybe they should try capturing a post office. Worked for Patrick Pearse. Disrupted the supply of stamps in Dublin for an entire week. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: GUEST Date: 31 Mar 11 - 02:03 AM Poster is Akenaton, who needs to reset his cookie. -Joe Offer- It has been reported that CIA operatives have been working with the insurgents for over two weeks. Also that Mr Obama has signed a "secret" order which allows the arming of the insurgents. Looks like civil war and the deaths of thousands is inevitable. For a result which will in all likelyhood, turn out just as Iraq did. Repression of women, government by religious dogma. We are hypocritical terrorists in word and deed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: bobad Date: 30 Mar 11 - 08:23 PM Gaddafi's foreign minister Moussa Koussa has defected to England. This is not surprising as his body language, while reading official government pronouncements, betrayed his shame and discomfort with the words he was being forced to parrot. It is also being reported that four other of Gaddafi's most senior officials have also defected. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: GUEST Date: 30 Mar 11 - 05:34 PM Poster is Akenaton, who needs to reset his cookie. -Joe Offer-
Those who advise arming them, look even more of a shower Mr McGrath. |
