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BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011

Charley Noble 12 Aug 11 - 07:41 AM
Teribus 12 Aug 11 - 09:50 AM
akenaton 12 Aug 11 - 01:43 PM
Charley Noble 12 Aug 11 - 05:02 PM
bobad 13 Aug 11 - 10:14 AM
Stringsinger 13 Aug 11 - 11:36 AM
Ron Davies 13 Aug 11 - 04:08 PM
Ron Davies 13 Aug 11 - 04:18 PM
Ron Davies 13 Aug 11 - 04:22 PM
Charley Noble 14 Aug 11 - 10:50 AM
Ron Davies 14 Aug 11 - 11:50 AM
akenaton 14 Aug 11 - 12:44 PM
bobad 14 Aug 11 - 01:15 PM
akenaton 14 Aug 11 - 01:41 PM
bobad 14 Aug 11 - 01:51 PM
Ron Davies 14 Aug 11 - 03:00 PM
akenaton 14 Aug 11 - 06:28 PM
Charley Noble 17 Aug 11 - 11:09 PM
bobad 18 Aug 11 - 12:06 AM
akenaton 17 Aug 11 - 05:08 PM
akenaton 17 Aug 11 - 05:35 PM
Ron Davies 17 Aug 11 - 10:19 PM
Ron Davies 17 Aug 11 - 10:28 PM
Ron Davies 17 Aug 11 - 10:31 PM
Ron Davies 17 Aug 11 - 10:31 PM
Charley Noble 17 Aug 11 - 10:51 PM
akenaton 18 Aug 11 - 03:07 AM
Charley Noble 18 Aug 11 - 08:20 AM
akenaton 18 Aug 11 - 01:49 PM
Ron Davies 19 Aug 11 - 09:07 AM
Charley Noble 19 Aug 11 - 12:37 PM
gnu 19 Aug 11 - 04:04 PM
akenaton 19 Aug 11 - 05:07 PM
Little Hawk 19 Aug 11 - 08:22 PM
Ron Davies 19 Aug 11 - 11:01 PM
Ron Davies 19 Aug 11 - 11:07 PM
Stringsinger 20 Aug 11 - 12:12 PM
bobad 20 Aug 11 - 05:36 PM
gnu 20 Aug 11 - 05:56 PM
bobad 21 Aug 11 - 08:01 AM
Charley Noble 21 Aug 11 - 11:06 AM
bobad 21 Aug 11 - 11:48 AM
Ron Davies 21 Aug 11 - 11:58 AM
bobad 21 Aug 11 - 12:52 PM
Ron Davies 21 Aug 11 - 02:29 PM
Charley Noble 21 Aug 11 - 02:49 PM
bobad 21 Aug 11 - 02:49 PM
Charley Noble 21 Aug 11 - 04:34 PM
GUEST,Bluesman 21 Aug 11 - 05:40 PM
Ron Davies 21 Aug 11 - 06:00 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 07:41 AM

Just in case anyone is still interested, the Rebels claimed today (again) that they have full control of Brega.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 09:50 AM

Also reported today Charley is that Gaddafi's forces are now no longer capable of mounting offensive operations


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 01:43 PM

Oh! does that mean he cant kill any more civilians?

Suppose its time to bring all our war machines home then!

That'll be right!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 05:02 PM

The update from Al Jazeera today about the evolving situation in Brega is more guarded:

"Libya's opposition fighters are continuing their push to capture a strategic oil terminal in Brega, which is still in control of forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi.

The rebels took over the residential zone of New Brega, located about 15km from the central oil terminal and port area, on Thursday.

Mohammed Zawawi, the opposition spokesman, told the Reuters news agency on Friday it was still not safe to go into the city.

"Now we are trying to clear that area. There are some Gaddafi troops still there," Zawawi said.

Troops loyal to Gaddafi are holding onto the oil facilities and firing rockets at rebel positions. At least eight rebel fighters have been killed and another 25 wounded in the latest fighting.

"There's close fighting in the oil terminal area this morning, but maybe we can finish it off today," Mohammad Muftah, a rebel soldier, said."

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 10:14 AM

"Oh! does that mean he cant kill any more civilians?"

Mounting an offensive against the rebel forces is one thing, the targeting and killing of civilians is quite another...........that's quite a reach there Ake, even for you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 11:36 AM

In war, the guilty and innocent suffer regardless of whose side their on.

The bombing of Tripoli doesn't get to the root cause of the problem, a dictator who has
deluded his followers, a simplistic knee-jerk reaction by the US military to bomb away ideologies that they don't understand, a military solution which is the last way to alleviate problems in the world that require construction of buildings, educational facilities, eliminating corruption in law enforcement, (yes you Karzai), infrastructure, disease control not contamination through radiation, and a humane policy toward innocent people. not the wholesale murder of them.

Godzilla meets King Kong and the US government doesn't get it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 04:08 PM

"...guilty and innocent".

Ah yes, another contribution from one of our main sources of ponderous platitudes.

With the classic moral relativism we have grown to know and love--and see constantly on the Left.


There is no comparison between the murderous regime of an unstable dictator and the rebel council in Benghazi.   If you think there is, who is your candidate for dictator in Benghazi?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 04:18 PM

Also--Peter--your ignorance is showing (again).   What a surprise.

You don't need huge defensive capabilities to cost the West hugely.    All you need to do is sponsor terrorism.    Which Muammar has promised to do.

I take it you have no problem with giving him part of the frozen $60 billion.   

Good thing you are far from the levers of power--and probably will always be so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 04:22 PM

"As Ake has told you, it's not about money." That makes two of you brilliant thinkers.

Sorry, in the real world, money means something--or perhaps even a bit more than something.   Who knows, maybe someday you Leftists will start to understand.   Or maybe not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Aug 11 - 10:50 AM

Meanwhile on the other battlefield, in Libya, the Rebels according to Al Jazeera, are making progress on capturing the strategic town of Az-Zawiyah: click here for story

Opposition fighters fought for control of the towns of Gharyan and Az-Zawiyah on Sunday, attempting to cut off the southern coastal route from Tunisia that Gaddafi uses for supplies.

Zeina Khodr, Al Jazeera's correspondent in Az-Zawiyah, reported that the rebels had taken control of a bridge along which the highway from Tripoli to Tunisia runs, but that central areas of the city remained contested, with Gaddafi forces employing snipers and mortar fire.

The battle also raged near the gates of the city.

Al Jazeera's Khodr said opposition fighters claim "they have managed to take 70 per cent of the town, despite the threat of snipers still in the area".


Government forces are still resisting Rebels within the town and may be reinforced from Tripoli, a half hour away by road transport. But there are seems to be support for the Rebels from the resident population of the town.

So, this uncivil war could be wound up by the end of the month. Oh, yah, I've said that before. Any takers for another round of beer?

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Aug 11 - 11:50 AM

The end of August?      Charley, you must have a big bank account.   I'll take your bet. No way will it be over by the end of August (unfortunately).    My concern is that it looks like it has to be over by the end of September, since some NATO powers have said they will only support the campaign through September.

So the big push has to be now--but the outcome is still uncertain. Especially since the Union of African States is trying to tempt the rebels constantly with negotiations---but with Gaddafi still in Libya.    They need to stay strong on rejecting that idea totally.   It would be like the 3rd Reich negotiating peace with Hitler still in Germany.

There are still some who do in fact see Gaddafi as the embodiment of Libya--no surprise since he's been dictator for about 40 years. So he will no doubt have his version of the Hitlerjugend.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Aug 11 - 12:44 PM

Big article in today's Times about the large numbers of Islamist activist in the ranks of the insurgents.

A Diplomat commented...."We've known about the growth of Islamists in the rebel ranks for some time, but have chosen to ignore it....to turn a blind eye, believed that they were few and they could handle it....I'm no longer sure, Its a mess."

It has now been revealed that Gen Younis and his aids were turned over to an Islamic militia on Govt orders, where they were tortured and killed........Marie Colvin the Times.


Just keep watching Egypt you goons!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 14 Aug 11 - 01:15 PM

Ake, is what Assad is doing to his people in Syria preferable to you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Aug 11 - 01:41 PM

No.....Why do you ask?

Without Western fire power this insurrection would be over long since with only a handful of casualties.

Just like Iraq, we are helping to install a regime which will be worse for the people of Libya than the one it replaces, (an Islamic State) and cause thousands of deaths in doing so.

Col Gadaffi's soldiers and civilians are human too....and their conditions of health, education and housing were the best in the area.

Do you really believe we are engaged there for reasons of freedom and democracy for Lybians?....if you do you are very naive indeed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 14 Aug 11 - 01:51 PM

"No.....Why do you ask?"

Because that is what Gaddafi was doing to his people and would still be doing if he was able to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Aug 11 - 03:00 PM

"government orders".    Exact quote, please--with exact source.

And "a Diplomat (sic)".    Again, exact source and exact quote, please.

"The Times" and one name doesn't cut it.   What are her sources?


Not that we'd ever suspect you were not totally objective, Ake.   Of course not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Aug 11 - 06:28 PM

The article from the Sunday Times ace war reporter Marie Colvin, is in todays Sunday Times.

I am unable to link to this article as I am not a subscriber.

I could cut and paste, but it is rather long.


By the way Ron, the reason that you and others on this thread support our involvement, appears to be, that you THINK the Col MAY HAVE been about to butcher the inhabitants of Benghazi, although he said no such thing.....nothing very "exact" about holding that position!

What he actually said, was that he would search out and find the criminals no matter where they were hiding.
Typical Gadaffi rhetoric!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Aug 11 - 11:09 PM

Rebel forces continue to tighten their grip around Tripoli according to various news reports. Here's the latest report from Al Jazeera: click here for story

There is still little clarity with regard to who was behind the assassination of the Rebel General. There are some interesting speculations who was behind it, and that the assassination has severely strained the National Transition Council.

Meanwhile it was also reported that the Libyan Interior minister and has family had fled by private plane to Cairo.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 18 Aug 11 - 12:06 AM

There are reports of discussions taking place on the Tunisian Island of Djerba between representatives from Gaddafi and members of the NTC. A member of the NTC, Wahid Bourchan, told AFP that many officials of the Gaddafi regime were seeking asylum in Europe, particularly in France.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Aug 11 - 05:08 PM

From today's Times.

James Hider, Michael Evans, Deborah Haynes, Tom Coghlan Last updated August 17 2011 12:01AM
The collapse of Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's regime would lead to a dangerous power vacuum in Libya, with the Western-backed rebel leadership in disarray and not ready to take control, diplomatic and military sources have warned.

A Western diplomat based in Benghazi described the prospect of Tripoli falling to the rebels as the "worst-case scenario" in the present climate.

Signalling the extent of Nato's concerns amid speculation that the endgame is in sight, officials from the alliance told The Times that victory against the regime would result in what is now being referred to as "catastrophic success".

A senior alliance diplomat told The Times: "This is the phrase now being generally used in Nato, that we are facing a catastrophic success in Libya. And even if it's not catastrophic it will be chaotic success because the opposition is not ready to govern and there will be a vacuum if Gaddafi goes.

Deep and deadly divisions within the rebel National Transitional Council (NTC) appeared last month with the murder of the rebel army chief, General Abdel Fatah Younis, by one of his own militia groups, an unsolved killing that led to the Cabinet being dissolved. No new Cabinet has yet been formed.

"With the killing of Younis and the possible fall of Tripoli now, the planning has gone with the wind," said the Western diplomat, based in Benghazi. "There's no NTC structure at all, the executive committee is gone, nothing has taken its place. I think it'd be the worst case scenario if Tripoli falls right now, there'd be nobody to take charge."

He warned that the West had seriously underestimated the growing influence of Islamists and the "significant" role played by Libya's tribes, instead focusing on Western-educated liberals who "said the right things". Full article


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Aug 11 - 05:35 PM

refresh


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Aug 11 - 10:19 PM

"typical Gadhafi rhetoric"

He has also called the rebels "rats" and "traitors".

Guess what other vicious dictator did the same thing.    Try Hitler.

Your faith, Ake, that Gaddafi's ranting would not be backed up with action is touchingly naive.    But at some point you actually should start living in the real world.

At this point you seem to have no connection with reality.

And, of course, since you cannot give direct quotes with sources, also no credibility.

Your main role in this thread seems to be comic relief. But the one joke you have is tired. You might try a different venue (different thread).


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Aug 11 - 10:28 PM

"A Western diplomat".    So this is your latest feeble excuse for deserting the rebels.

Of course there will a power vacuum when Gaddafi falls. Just like when Hitler fell.   How did it work out in Germany?    Where there also was a very weak democratic tradition.

One of the many reasons, besides the fact that Gaddafi has for 40 years made political parties or any other source of opposition to him in Libya impossible, is the fact that even now no one person can dare to call himself the head of the provisional council--since he would then be a marked man for Gaddafi's assassins    And dear sweet Muammar in fact has a long record of sending assassins all over the world to kill dissidents. Much less opposition in Libya itself.

Think Hitlerjugend.

If you would lift a finger to do a bit of research you would not have to be spoonfed this information.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Aug 11 - 10:31 PM

"there will be"


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Aug 11 - 10:31 PM

"there will be"


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Aug 11 - 10:51 PM

akenaton-

A Western diplomat based in Benghazi described the prospect of Tripoli falling to the rebels as the "worst-case scenario"

Odd that this Western diplomat prefers to remain anonymous. But he certainly reinforces your position.

Yes, I agree that the NTC has challenging problems but they are somehow continuing to be effective on the battlefield, backed up by NATO. It is difficult to predict what will happen but I do expect there will be general celebration in Tripoli when Gadhafi and his gang are finally captured or run out.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Aug 11 - 03:07 AM

Ron ...ever heard of foresight? most commentators are now saying what I've been alluding to for months.....and panic is setting in as the composition of the insurgency becomes apparent.

"He warned that the West had seriously underestimated the growing influence of Islamists and the "significant" role played by Libya's tribes, instead focusing on Western-educated liberals who "said the right things".

"Liberals who said the right things"......does that remind you of anyone Ron?.....Useful idiots?

The fundamentalists have played this to perfection, as in Iraq, using their bitterest enemies blinded by their own liberal ideology and greed, to fight their war and win their victory for them.

One by one the strong men are falling.....and ask yourself Ron, who are the only beneficiaries?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Aug 11 - 08:20 AM

akenaton-

So we're left the choice of supporting existing dictators or Islamic fundamentalists? And your preference is the dictator? Now that's hardly a politically correct preference for a long-time leftist.

I still have some faith in the sanity of the majority of Rebel fighters, that they want a better world for themselves and their families, and one that is essentially more democratic and a part of the Western world. But, I agree that they will have to fight hard to achieve that, and to prevent their revolution being captured by the Islamic fundamentalists.

But feel free to cheer for Gahdafi and what's left of his loyal followers. Hell, why not fly to Tripoli and join them in their bunker. (Well, that's an uncharacteristically ignoble remark; apologies in advance!)

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Aug 11 - 01:49 PM

No offense taken Charley, I am not completely without humour.

I am certainly not a "politically correct" and a choice between a dictator like Fidel or Gadaffi and the Islamists would be no contest in my book.
As I've said a hundred times Gadaffi was reasonably good to his people ....but he did not suit the West or the fundamentalists...too much of a loose canon and difficult to control,so we have trumped up a reason the kill him and the thousands who support him.
They say that 70% of the population of Tripoli supports Gadaffi, are we going to bomb the insurgents to stop what may be a slaughter by the rebels,or do supporters of the Col not qualify as human beings?

Anyway, "democracy" is finished, it was never real, simply another tool in the capitalist box...we are as free as we are allowed to be and that means keep your grubby hands off the system.

The thought police are at the door.....four years in jail for posting on facebook.....what a fucking joke, soon every protest movement will be hammered, then we will have "liberal" fascism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Aug 11 - 09:07 AM

" they say 70%..."---delusional to the last, aren't you, Ake?    Whoever "they" are.    You maintain your record of people supporting your cause who know exactly what's happened in Muammar's closed society--but for some reason are themselves anonymous.    As I noted, your credibility is somewhat below zero.

Funny thing---you would have probably gotten the same "polling" result in Berlin around January 1945. Influenced by fear of the dictator?   Of course not.

Again the old question:    just how naive are you?



Meanwhile, it appears Charley may in fact win his latest bet.   I'll be only too happy to pay up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Aug 11 - 12:37 PM

Always willing to entertain further bets, ante up!

And its heartening to see pressure ratcheted up on Syria's dictator (and his ruling generals), even if Syria doesn't have much oil. It's about time.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 19 Aug 11 - 04:04 PM

ake... I hate to say this... I agree with you. Fact is, and I have said it before, BP was just setting up ops in Libya and Quackdaddy got uppity so they threw cruise missiles around like nerf balls at a kidddy Bday party. If anyone thinks BP doesn't control the Brit and Yank military, well...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Aug 11 - 05:07 PM

Why do you hate to agree with me gnu?
I'm happy that we see eye to eye on some things and not on others.
Makes for interesting discussions, it would be really boring here if everyone agreed.....no?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Aug 11 - 08:22 PM

Yup. Well said, Ake.

But in the minds of those intent on total domination of either a conversation or a general political climate, all disagreement with their chosen point of view is considered intolerable...contemptible...evil...worthy of ridicule and every form of destructive personal attack upon the speaker. Beware of such people. It is as Caesar said of Cassius, they are lean and hungry men, and their intentions toward you are quite merciless...unless, of course, you agree with them on every single point.

Such angry men have made this forum, frankly, simply not worth wasting much of one's time on when it comes to discussing things like politics. Or religion. Or anything else that they have decided to make into their own personal hobby horse of hatred, summary judgement, and self-righteous fury.

And having said that...I shall vanish once more to other much more pleasant things I could be doing and avoid undesired contact with said lean and hungry men.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Aug 11 - 11:01 PM

"if anybody thinks BP doesn't control" the US and UK militaries....

So now we have the classic leftist paranoid theory.    This must be Mudcat.

Gee, all we need is some actual evidence.    But making knowing--but amazingly sloppy---generalizations is so much more fun.

And some of the usual suspects can pat each other on the back, telling each other how brilliant they are.

Blissfully free from any need to actually provide an iota of proof.   

Situation normal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Aug 11 - 11:07 PM

As I've noted before, no wonder folkies' grasp of strategic thinking is so admired in the wider world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 12:12 PM

There is obvious evidence that can be established by just looking at the solutions.
In Egypt, today, the big mistake was to hand over the country to the military who are incapable of governing in a democracy. The Egyptian people are still fighting for their rights.

Bombing Gadaffi or Tripoli will ensure that some ruler will come in and replace the present administration with something equally tyrannical. Tell me how well this bombing campaign has worked in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq?

In the meantime Assad slaughters his people. Saudi Arabia imprisons their people.
Bahrain on the verge of civil war between Sunni and Shia. Egypt fighting for its political life.

Here's a thought. Why not strengthen the role of the World Court, the Hague and the positive side of the UN to deal with this problem by stopping the support of bombing campaigns here in the US, by supporting institutions that encourage peaceful rather than military solutions? What happens when the Commander-in-Chief becomes the Conqueror-in-Chief?

The Republicans seem to want to extend the military budget with the notable exception of Ron Paul. This is the one and only area in which I can agree with him.

Let's see, WWI was supposed to be the war to end all wars. How's that working out for ya'?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 05:36 PM

From Al Jazeera

"Multiple blasts and gunfire' in Tripoli
Sustained gunfire and thuds were heard as witnesses reported fighting in some neighbourhoods of the Libyan capital.
Last Modified: 20 Aug 2011 20:30
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Multiple explosions rocked Tripoli on Saturday night and repeated anti-aircraft fire was seen streaking across the sky, a Reuters news agency reporter in the city said as witnesses reported fighting in some neighbourhoods of the Libyan capital.

Crowds of opponents of Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi were in the streets and gunfire could be heard from multiple locations, two residents told Reuters.

Sustained gunfire and thuds were heard in the distance and residents of Tajoura, on Tripoli's eastern outskirts, reported clashes were under way.

Tripoli residents said fighting had also broken out in the eastern neighbourhoods of Soug Jomaa and Arada.

Gunfire erupted in central Tripoli after the break of the dawn-to-dusk fast of Ramadan.

Tripoli residents also received mobile phone text messages urging them to "go out into the streets to eliminate agents with weapons".


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 05:56 PM

Ron... proof? Read a newspaper. Watch the TV. Listen to the radio. March in protests.

Oh, yeah. Cover yer ass.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 08:01 AM

Is endgame at hand?

From Al Jazeera:

"The zero hour has started. The rebels in Tripoli have risen up," said Abdel Hafiz Ghoga, vice-chairman of the NTC, in the eastern city of Benghazi.

"There is co-ordination with the rebels in Tripoli. This was a pre-set plan. They've been preparing for a while. There's co-ordination with the rebels approaching from the east, west and south," he said.

Ghoga said NATO warplanes were launching raids to distract Gaddafi's forces.

"The next hours are crucial. Many of their (pro-Gaddafi) brigades and their commanders have fled." He added.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 11:06 AM

There's nothing to gloat about here, as far as I'm concerned, but all reports indicate that Gadhafi's days are numbered small. Good rid-dens!

And I don't doubt that the major international oil companies -- European, those in the States, and China of course -- are rubbing their hands in glee.

But one can't predict whether the more democratic elements in the NTC will retain control or whether control will be seized by the "Islamic fundamentalists" or some dominant tribal entity or some general from Fairfax, Virginia. I don't think the former royal family will be invited back. Any betters out there?

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 11:48 AM

The stated intent of the NTC is to hold free and fair elections. Hopefully their future governance will be decided by the people of Libya.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 11:58 AM

Not much time now to say anything.    But the rebels are "euphoric", I've read.    That's a dangerous state--easy to get overconfident.

To minimize loss of life, I don't see why they just don't blanket Tripoli with leaflets telling the inhabitants it is cut off from fuel and other supplies, put pressure on the Gaddafi regime to let anybody who wants to flee the city, and only after everybody is gone who wants to go, then attack.    The rebels are still not as well armed as Gaddafi's forces and the "cells" in the city are risking brutal retaliation if they rise up and are not able to link up with the rebels attacking from outside the city.

And NATO certainly can't treat Tripoli as Berlin was treated in 1945--until anybody who wants to leave is gone.

And for good measure, my suggestion of months ago to put a $10 million price on Gaddafi's head would still be an excellent move---and might still avoid huge casualties.

But a premature attack on Tripoli by the rebels would be a hideous tragedy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 12:52 PM

TRIPOLI, Libya (AP, Aug 21) -- Libyan rebels captured a major military base that defends Moammar Gadhafi's stronghold of Tripoli as clashes and protests raged in the streets of the capital on Sunday. The tide of the 6-month-old civil war appeared to be turning quickly against the leader of more than four decades. As Associated Press reporter with the rebels rapidly advancing toward Tripoli saw them take over the base of the Khamis Brigade, 16 miles west of the capital. After a brief gunbattle, Gadhafi's forces fled what was once a major symbol of the regime's power. Gadhafi's 27-year-old son Khamis commands the 32nd Brigade, also known simply as the Khamis Brigade, one of the best trained and equipped units in the Libyan military. Inside the base, hundreds of rebels cheered wildly and danced, raising the rebel flag on the front gate of a large, gray wall enclosing the compound. They seized large stores of weapons, driving away with truckloads of whatever arms they could get their hands on. One of the rebels carried off a tube of grenades, while another carted off two mortars. Ahmed al-Ajdal, 27, a fighter from Tripoli, was loading up a truck with ammunition. "This is the wealth of the Libyan people that he was using against us", he said, pointing to his haul. "Now we will use it against him and any other dictator who goes against the Libyan people".


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 02:29 PM

That's great that they have taken over the Khamis Brigade's base.   It should help to even the odds on armaments.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 02:49 PM

Here's the link to the Rebel capture of the base of the Khamis Brigade: click here for report!

News is now picking up speed.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 02:49 PM

I've been following live feeds for several hours, events are unfolding very radipdly. Here are some highlights:

"Tripoli security forces seem to have gone into meldown - they don't know if they are supposed to be supressing the citizens or protecting key sites or preventing ff entering the city and don't know which of their units remain loyal and which have switched sides or just plain melted away. Look to have been taken totally off guard while the TNC had this planned all along.

Result is patchy resistance but no cohesive action, as a result they are being overwhelmed despite all their heavy weaponry. Hopefully this will be over soon with the sheer momentum of events sweeping the last bastions of government security aside - please!"

@dovenews Libyan™ Major General #Albrani #Ashkal commandr of M'Hamed Maqrif battalion is appealing 2 the officers & soldiers 2 lay down their weapons by radio 56 seconds ago via web

@dovenews Libyan™ Major General #Albrani #Ashkal has defected on 20th May & informed #NTC but stayed with Gaddafi to help #FF41 seconds ago via web

@fieldproducer Neal Mann
Anybody listening... RT @robcrilly Fixer tells me Libyan radio is broadcasting appeals to rebels to back down.Sounds pretty desperate stuff


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 04:34 PM

History in the happening.

Anyone remember the Winter Palace?

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 05:40 PM

Muammar Gaddafi's son, Saif Al-Islam has been captured and his presidential guard surrendered.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 06:00 PM

You're right Charley, sounds like it could be a Winter Palace type of situation.    Interesting, one of our stalwart Mucatters just recently told us 70% of the Tripoli population was still pro-Gaddafi. Of course he never did come up with any actual source, quote or evidence to back up his imaginative statement--as usual.

But it ain't over til...

And overconfidence can be very dangerous.


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