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BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011

Charley Noble 08 Sep 11 - 09:44 AM
Ron Davies 08 Sep 11 - 12:23 PM
bobad 08 Sep 11 - 01:26 PM
Charley Noble 08 Sep 11 - 05:53 PM
Ron Davies 08 Sep 11 - 10:18 PM
bobad 09 Sep 11 - 07:36 AM
Ron Davies 09 Sep 11 - 10:42 PM
Charley Noble 09 Sep 11 - 10:47 PM
akenaton 10 Sep 11 - 03:43 AM
bobad 10 Sep 11 - 07:05 AM
Charley Noble 10 Sep 11 - 09:35 AM
Ron Davies 10 Sep 11 - 10:27 AM
akenaton 10 Sep 11 - 11:40 AM
Ron Davies 10 Sep 11 - 01:03 PM
Charley Noble 10 Sep 11 - 02:10 PM
akenaton 11 Sep 11 - 04:03 AM
Ron Davies 11 Sep 11 - 11:17 PM
Songwronger 12 Sep 11 - 12:12 AM
akenaton 12 Sep 11 - 03:45 AM
bobad 12 Sep 11 - 04:55 AM
bobad 12 Sep 11 - 08:21 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 13 Sep 11 - 03:38 AM
Ron Davies 13 Sep 11 - 08:50 AM
akenaton 13 Sep 11 - 10:00 AM
bobad 13 Sep 11 - 10:16 AM
Ron Davies 13 Sep 11 - 10:45 AM
Ron Davies 13 Sep 11 - 10:56 AM
Charley Noble 13 Sep 11 - 08:08 PM
Songwronger 13 Sep 11 - 11:18 PM
Teribus 14 Sep 11 - 02:28 AM
akenaton 14 Sep 11 - 03:05 AM
Charley Noble 14 Sep 11 - 07:52 AM
Charley Noble 14 Sep 11 - 08:02 AM
Ron Davies 14 Sep 11 - 09:04 AM
Charley Noble 14 Sep 11 - 10:36 PM
Songwronger 15 Sep 11 - 01:19 AM
Charley Noble 15 Sep 11 - 08:04 AM
Ron Davies 15 Sep 11 - 09:39 AM
Ron Davies 15 Sep 11 - 10:10 AM
bobad 16 Sep 11 - 10:07 AM
bobad 18 Sep 11 - 07:19 AM
Charley Noble 18 Sep 11 - 10:59 AM
The Sandman 18 Sep 11 - 12:47 PM
Ron Davies 18 Sep 11 - 09:33 PM
GUEST,number 6 18 Sep 11 - 10:26 PM
akenaton 19 Sep 11 - 03:22 AM
Teribus 19 Sep 11 - 11:01 AM
Charley Noble 19 Sep 11 - 05:56 PM
Songwronger 19 Sep 11 - 08:20 PM
Songwronger 19 Sep 11 - 08:21 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Sep 11 - 09:44 AM

I'm still mulling over the possibilities of a screen play based on the fleeing armored column of Gadhafi loyalists sinking into the sands of the Niger desert. Where is Shakespeare when we need him? Where are Bertolt Brecht and Kurt Weill?

Oh, well, back to CNN and Al Jazeera.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Sep 11 - 12:23 PM

"Debating" with leftists is shooting fish in a barrel.


"interfrere (sic) in zimbabwe (sic)"

Absolutely, that's bound to be a big hit in Africa--a white military force interfering in a black African country.

Ever heard of Rhodesia?    Know what it's called these days?

Again the old question:   are you leftists capable of thinking at all?

To put it gently:   perhaps you should go back to folk music and leave international relations to those who believe in using their heads.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 08 Sep 11 - 01:26 PM

At a news conference in Tripoli, the recently arrived Mahmoud Jibril, NTC executive committee chairman, said:

    "What Libyans have accomplished is an unprecedented achievement in recent history. However, our biggest challenges are still ahead of us. The first challenge is to win against ourselves. The second challenge is the ability to forgive and to reconcile and look for the future."


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Sep 11 - 05:53 PM

Oh, I'd agree that "zimbabwe" is also a case for intervention and attempts have been made to do that without using armed force. However, the Organization of African Unity needs to be on board and they are reluctant to do so. Not one of the neighboring countries is willing to take a lead role.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Sep 11 - 10:18 PM

Problem is the poster in question was querying why we used military force in Libya, but would not in Zimbabwe.    As I said, the use of a white military force in Zimbabwe might just possibly not be applauded by black Africa.

Unless, as Charley pointed out, you can get a multinational black African force to sanction it.

Good luck on that.

As the Good Soldier should know if he thought more than 2 seconds about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 09 Sep 11 - 07:36 AM

"Rebel officials have said for months that they would try to avoid the mistakes made in Iraq after Saddam Hussein was overthrown, when United States officials disbanded the military and barred all former members of the ruling Baath Party - many of Iraq's most experienced professionals - from working in any public-sector job.

Instead, the Libyan rebels said, they will seek retribution, in a courtroom, against only the most notorious Qaddafi government officials, those who oversaw torture or killings, egregiously enriched themselves or, in the case of the captured television host Hala Misrati, led the propaganda war on state television.

The rebel leaders pledged to welcome back most of the bureaucrats and other midlevel functionaries, and so far, former senior officials of Colonel Qaddafi's government say the provisional government appears to be keeping its word. To underscore that point, the rebel leadership held a ceremony on Tuesday to hand control of a major natural gas plant to the same manager who was responsible for its security under Colonel Qaddafi.

"There are very few instances of revenge," said Abdulmajeed el-Dursi, the former chief of the Qaddafi-era foreign media operation, sipping coffee at a cafe full of rebels and talking about opening a media services company.

"It is legitimate, all these things they are doing - freedom of the press, the rule of law," Mr. Dursi added. "We always thought it was the right thing to do."

Officials at the rebels' detention centers around the city say they have sent scores of Colonel Qaddafi's former soldiers and supporters back to their homes after they have turned in their weapons, and even some of the former soldiers now insist that they are revolutionaries at heart."

www.nytimes.com/2011/09/08/world/africa/08tripoli.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Sep 11 - 10:42 PM

So, Ake, Western governments "realized they were about to be exposed" so decided to topple Gaddafi.

Well, that's a different theory, anyway. Nobody can accuse you of lack of imagination.

Too bad about the lack of sense, logic, evidence etc. And for some reason you left out the inconvenient element that huge numbers of his own people wanted to get rid of him--and can hardly wait til he is captured and has to account for his cruel and kleptocratic regime.

But I suppose we can't have everything.

Logic, evidence, etc. never was the strong suit of the pro-Gaddafi posters.

And absurd theories are always more fun for them, it seems, than coming to terms with the fact that Muammar never was the socialist model of your dreams.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 Sep 11 - 10:47 PM

Here's a bit of an update with regard to the end-game(Al Jazeera):

Fighters belonging to the Libyan National Transitional Council (NTC) say they have entered the loyalist stronghold of Bani Walid, with street fighting reported to be taking place in the town, 150km southeast of the capital Tripoli.

The news came just hours after Muammar Gaddafi's loyalists fired Grad rocket barrages at the fighters besieging Bani Walid and Sirte, a coastal city also under the deposed leader's control.

Abdullah Kenshil, the former rebels' chief negotiator, said the former rebels were fighting gunmen positioned in houses in the town of Bani Walid and the hills that overlooked it. "They are inside the city. They are fighting with snipers....They forced this on us and it was in self-defence."


Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 03:43 AM

What about the civilians Charley?    Where is NATO when they are needed?

Oh yes, they are not real civilians, they dont believe the right things.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 07:05 AM

The civilians are being liberated from being held hostage by Gaddafi's thugs by the freedom fighters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 09:35 AM

Yes, Akenaton, some civilians will be killed or injured in "liberating" this town. It's called war.

I also note that more bodies are being uncovered of "Rebels" executed by Gadhafi's forces before they fled from Tripoli and surrounding towns. Perhaps, you'd like to do a body count and assess what the balance is?

The Gadhafi forces were urged to surrender in Bani Walid (and in other towns), and the townspeople who urged surrender were typically run out of town.

And NATO is being appropriately caution about further bombing, providing aerial surveillance instead.

Have a nice day.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 10:27 AM

More inconvenient truths for those who still idolize dear Muammar:

NATO has always been concerned about civilian casualties.   And Muammar has exploited this by doing such things as putting children on tanks, as I noted earlier.

And here's more:    Reuters, 10 Sept 2011:   "Families trickled out of Bani Walid before the fighting intensified".

A Reuters reporter spoke to one of the families;   "his veiled wife, Oum Abdurahman, leaned out of the window, holding her baby son".    She said:   "there's no food, no power, no water. Many people want to leave but have no fuel for their cars and Gaddafi forces are preventing people from leaving.   They fire in the air to terrorize people.   Today we managed to leave."

But this can't be true, can it Ake?    Your man Muammar and his supporters would never try to actually maximize civilian casualties, now would they?

Time for you to at long last take off your blinders.



As I said, "debating" with leftists is shooting fish in a barrel. Perhaps it's because they don't even bother to think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 11:40 AM

Nato bombing the towns which support the Col.....towns containing thousands of civilians......hypocrits!

Lets here it for the civilians now you "democrats"


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 01:03 PM

In addition to your other sterling qualities, Ake, your reading skills appear rather abysmal.   I just finished pointing out how Gaddafi's forces are preventing civilians, many of whom are desperate to leave the besieged town, from doing so.   Can't understand how you have managed to miss the post just before yours.

It looks like we can make this a musical thread after all---W.S. Gilbert spoke quite directly to the attitude of Muammar's defenders:


"The idiot who praises with enthusiastic tone
Every century but this and each country but his own"


And remember the theme of his little ditty.   True here in spades.

Actually Muammar's fans don't praise every country but their own--they whine constantly about the entire West.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 02:10 PM

It's true that NATO has made some recent bombing runs after the Rebels pulled back. Hopefully they have a good idea of what they're targeting. The Gadhafi loyalists should bear some responsibility, don't you think, Akenaton, for the inevitable civilian casualties. Or do you think their hands are clean?

Laying siege to these towns for another week or so might be an option but there would also be civilian suffering. It just doesn't make sense, I think, to give the Gadhafi loyalists more time to brutalize their "human shields."

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Sep 11 - 04:03 AM

Well Charley you could apply that line of thinking to the "intended" massacre of civilians in Benghazi, which we used to say was the reason for our involvement in the first place?

If the Col wanted to put an end to the insurgency, I suppose some civilians may have perished, but our involvement ensured that perhaps 100, 000 will die.

To install an Islamist regime.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Sep 11 - 11:17 PM

Interesting, Ake, that you predict an Islamist regime--on no evidence in Libya.

And that you're blithely willing to accept whatever Gaddafi had in mind for "the rats".

By your logic, we never should have bombed Germany in WW II, since our fighting that regime resulted in lots of deaths. And that leader also described his domestic opponents as "rats" and traitors--just like Gaddafi does.

And it seems you would have been fine with that regime also--after all, it was "socialist"=--the leader even told us over and over his was a National Socialist government.

So how long have you had this devotion to vicious dictators?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Songwronger
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 12:12 AM

Abdelhakim Belhadj, commander of the Libyan rebel army, is now the military governor of Tripoli.

Tripoli was a burgeoning city of 2 million, about to become a Mediterranean vacation spot. Now it's under the control of a certifiable madman. Look up his history if you want to be nauseated.

Kadafi had the Muslim-on-black violence under control and his nation was about to become first-world. NATO couldn't allow that, so the country's been turned over to barbarians and looters. A fine way for Obama to celebrate the tenth anniversary of September 11, to have al Qeada lynching blacks in a country he "liberated."


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 03:45 AM

Well said indeed Frank.

Ron ....To equate Col Gadaffi's Lybia with Hitlers "Democratically elected" govt in Germany is quite wrong.

"Democratic" Germany was a real military threat to the UK and the rest of Europe....whereas The Col's dictatorship was not, indeed he appeared to be working very closely with our security services.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 04:55 AM

"A pro-Gaddafi radio station in Bani Walid is urging residents to rise up against the revolutionaries, promising "the prettiest girls" in town as a reward."

Al Jazeera


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 08:21 AM

Reuters reporting that Gaddafi thugs using civilians as human shields in Bani Walid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 03:38 AM

Amnesty International reporting 'ruthless and deadly' human rights abuses on both sides of the conflict.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 08:50 AM

Ake-

"quite wrong".    Sorry, as usual, you are the one off base.    He has promised terrorism to the West. Clueless armchair socialists --like your good self?---would make it easy for him. And he has every incentive--and money--to do so if you had your wish and he were reinstated.

Further, Gaddafi's main parallels with Hitler have been clear for months,    Both are totalitarians, who sought to be seen as the embodiment of the country, teach their followers to feel the same, and saw their opponents as scum and traitors.   Gaddafi of course still does. At some point you should actually open a book rather than continue to speak from your fathomless ignorance.

And you should count yourself lucky you did not live in Libya under him--you would have been in prison long since.

So, please tell us, as I said: how long have you had this devotion to murderous totalitarians?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 10:00 AM

And tell me Ron how long have YOU been residing in Libya?

You think the Col was a murderous totalitarian, just wait till the Islamists start laying down Sharia Law in exchange for oil.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 10:16 AM

"Mustafa Abdul Jalil outlined his plans to create a modern democratic state based on "moderate Islam" to thousands of flag-waving supporters in the newly renamed Martyrs' Square."

"In his first speech since moving to the capital from the NTC stronghold of Benghazi, Mr Jalil told some 10,000 supporters to avoid retribution attacks, adding that Libya's new leaders would not accept any extremist ideology.

The speech was short, in contrast with Col Gaddafi's infamously long public addresses. The broad theme was reconciliation. Mr Jalil urged both ordinary Libyans and his fighters to comply with the law and not to take matters into their own hands. He reminded people that not everyone who worked for the Gaddafi regime should be treated with contempt.

Religion is a key issue in conservative Libya. He said the NTC would not accept extreme right- or left-wing ideologies. There have been some calls for secularism from a minority in Benghazi and some technocrats.

The speech appeared to go down well with the thousands of Libyans who had gathered in Martyrs' Square. He was frequently interrupted by applause, whistling and women cheering."

As soon as it ended, there was a barrage of celebratory gunfire, not just in central Tripoli but also in the east of the city. It seemed to reach out to all Libyans and also foreign parties who had helped during the conflict.

"We are a Muslim nation, with a moderate Islam, and we will maintain that. You are with us and support us - you are our weapon against whoever tries to hijack the revolution," he said.

BBC


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 10:45 AM

There you go again, Ake, more from your depth of boundless ignorance and gloom.    There are Islamists in Libya,    There are also many Libyans who want the freedom to be able to express themselves--for the first time in 40 years.   Not to be chained to Sharia law in all things. Which, you note, has not even happened in Iraq, where it was also predicted.

What's more, Libyan money from oil can finance an excellent educational system, among other benefits to the country.   And the longer a pluralistic education system is in effect, the less likely Sharia law will rule.

Only a clueless--and bitter?---armchair socialist would predict that all Libyans will willingly submit to an Islamist theocracy.   

Added to which, as I may possibly have noted before, the West has enough threats of terrorism without bankrolling another.   Which is in fact your proposal.

Don't worry, we don't expect you to admit that you have been wrong from the start in opposing the West's part in the Libyan struggle.

I wonder to what extent your stubborn opposition is based on the fact that some benefit is likely to accrue to the UK as led by Cameron.   The UK is likely to get the best oil contracts, after France.   Not a giveaway, but a reward getting in early and staying the course--despite constant pathetic whining from the Left--including your good self?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 10:56 AM

"residing in Libya".    Actually, Ake, that's not necessary. It is however necessary to read something and not just listen constantly to your own echo-chamber.   You ought to try it sometime.

I read constantly anything I can see on the Libyan situation--from all perspectives.    So I learn to distinguish news from rumor.   Again, you might try it.

I also note you have not contradicted my assertion that Gaddafi, like Hitler, considered himself the embodiment of the country, saw his opponents as vermin and traitors, and, to the best of his ability taught Libyans to feel the same.

Perhaps you haven't contradicted it because it's obviously true.

But now the majority of the country has had enough of him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 08:08 PM

We are getting to that grim phase in the revolution where atrocities are being documented on both sides by Amnesty International. I applaud the efforts by the NTC leadership to seek reconciliation with as many Gadhafi supporters as possible, with the exception of the internationally identified criminals.

I am also impressed that the Rebels have resisted storming into the remaining Gadhafi strongholds, guns blazing. They could do that but instead they are urging the civilians to flee for another two days.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Songwronger
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 11:18 PM

A good article about how al Qeada has been put in charge of Libya. Written by a French reporter NATO has been threatening to kill:

http://12160.info/forum/topics/how-al-qaeda-men-came-to-power-in-libya-by-thierry-meyssan-of

How Al Qaeda men came to power in Libya

by Thierry Meyssan

...On 26 June 2005, Western intelligence agencies held a meeting in London of Libyan dissidents. They constituted the "National Conference of the Libyan opposition", bringing together three Islamic factions: the Muslim Brothers, the Senoussi Brotherhood and the LIFG. Their manifesto set forth three objectives:
*to overthrow Muammar Gaddafi;
*to exercise power for one year (under the name "National Transition Council");
*to restore the constitutional monarchy to its 1951 form and make Islam the state religion....

...On 17 February 2011, "National Libyan Opposition Conference" organized a "day of anger" in Benghazi, which sparked the beginning of the war....

...On 1 May 2011, Barack Obama announced that, in Abbottabad (Pakistan), the US Navy's SEAL Team Six had taken out Osama bin Laden, about whom no reliable news had been heard for almost 10 years. The announcement padlocked the Al-Qaeda file and enabled the revamping of the jihadists into the renewed allies of the United States as in the good old days of the Afghanistan, Bosnia, Chechnya and Kosovo wars [7] On 6 August, all the members of SEAL commando 6 perished in the crash of their helicopter....

-------

This is just another coup brought to you by the CIA and MI-6, using al Qeada and NATO to do the blood work. But this coup stands a good chance of failing. NATO has outlived its mission. It is now an invading army of terrorists. Time to disband it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 02:28 AM

Songwriter

What complete and utter tripe.

So Libyan dissidents met and afirmed their desire to overthrow Gaddafi - WOW, what a revelation - about as interesting and amazing as the headline - "Dog bites Man"

The fact that this meeting took place in London in 2005 is neither here nor there. Londinistan has been known for years to be a place of refuge for dissidents from Islamic countries.

"On 6 August, all the members of SEAL commando 6 perished in the crash of their helicopter...."

All members?? Oh no they did not - you should take a good look at the organisation of the Unit you are talking about and their tasking.

The members assigned to SEAL 6 who took part in the raid on Abbottabad all came from their base in the USA where they had trained for months on a mock up of the compound they were about to attack. Where did they go after the raid? Abbottabad to Afghanistan - Afghanistan to a USN Aircraft Carrier in the Arabian Sea - USN Aircraft carrier to the USA.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 03:05 AM

Certainly I agree about the status of NATO Songwronger.
Hopefully, with the coming of Scottish Independence, we in Scotland will have the guts to withdraw from its shadow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 07:52 AM

Songwronger-

There's quite enough to be concerned about in this phase of the Libyan revolution without relying on cut-and-paste conspiracy fantasy such as "How Al Qaeda men came to power in Libya by Thierry Meyssan."

Maybe I'll do a Google search of the author and see what I can dredge up.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 08:02 AM

Here's the link to what's posted at wikipedia on Thierry Meysan: Click here for report!

If you love conspiracy theories, you'll love this guy's work. I suppose there is a remote possibility that he is entirely correct, and that Gadhafi is still in control of Tripoli, and that the 9/11 attacks were orchestrated by neoconservatives to gain control of the entire Milky Way Galaxy.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 09:04 AM

Charley again has it right.    The chances for Monsieur Meyssan to be anything but comic relief are somewhat slim.

Convinced a Boeing did not hit the Pentagon 11 Sept 2001.    This theory is too much even for some other 11 Sept conspiracy theorists.    But no doubt not too much for some of our illustrious Mudcat Leftists.

And 22 Aug 2011, reporting that Gaddafi forces had driven most of the rebels from the city.

I wonder what he's telling his listeners now, reporting from his alternate universe.

Again, nobody can say the opponents of Western involvement in Libya are not imaginative in their depictions of events and their dire predictions.

As I noted before, there is a wonderful opportunity for them in writing pulp fiction---where logic and sense are not required and may just get in the way of telling a good story,


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 10:36 PM

Gadhafi is still making radio broadcasts via a radio station he has funded in Syria, and is still calling for the people of Libya to rise up and throw the "rats" out. He's also calling for the UN to intervene and protect the civilian population in the towns and territory he still controls. Now that's a switch!

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Songwronger
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 01:19 AM

NATO is trying to vet all the reporting that's coming out of Libya, and Meyssan's not sending out the vetted stuff. And NATO has admitted it's running a disinformation campaign in Libya, so Meyssan's reportage is at least as credible as that coming from an organization which ADMITS it's lying to you. Why would any of you choose to believe the statements of people who tell you they are lying?

As far as al Qeada in Libya, they've been installed as the new rulers. Just look at the membership. Bad guys yesterday, good guys today.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 08:04 AM

Songwronger-

You have a point with "vetting" but Meysaan's not your best case for alternative reporting. Why not admit that and find someone more credible? And, no, I don't rely on NATO for updates but if I were your criticism would have some merit. I love this kind of inane debate!

Maybe that's why I rely primarily on Al Jazeera; I don't believe they're run by NATO, the CIA, or Al Qeada or Walt Disney.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 09:39 AM

"al Qaeda in Libya as the new rulers".    Right.   And I'm the Prime MInister of the UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 10:10 AM

So, Mr. Thinknotter, you inhabit the same alternate universe as Monsieur Meyssan. Tell us, how can we get tourist visas so we can come gawk at you two?

As I said earlier, fish in a barrel.    And it's sinfully addicting--which is a real problem.

Unless of course you're just desperate to get to 1,000.   Don't worry, at this rate, no sweat doing that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 16 Sep 11 - 10:07 AM

A snippet from a "man in the street" in Tripoli, this is from a forum with which I have been engaged since the beginning:

"Yesterday evening my friend and work associate came to see me out of the blue. He had been incommunicado for three weeks. He had been in Libya and was fighting with the ff [freedom fighters aka rebels] just as Tripoli was taken back.

Some things of note.

He said that Tripoli has already become very quiet now. Right after it was taken back the guns were firing constantly in celebration. He said now the only time he heard any gunfire was for an hour after Libya beat Mozambique in football.

He said I wouldn't believe what Tripoli is like now. Everyone is smiling, inviting people, strangers to come in for food or lodging, women walking alone on the streets without head coverings in the middle of the night (just like the old days).

I asked him about the threat of an reactionary Islamic movement. He told me trha tthere was no one other than a few fighters that wanted an Islamic movement to take power. He said that Bilhaj was being eyed with suspicion by the tripolitanians. He was restricted to the city but, the NTC withdrew its call for the brigades to return to their homes after they decided it was a good insurance policy against Bilhaj. Bilhaj's forces it should bbe remarked numbered only between 5 and 700. My friends brother who was with the Zintan brigade (even though he is from Tripoli) was one of three and his numbered 1200 (responsible for airport security). I asked if there was problems with these brigades in Tripoli. He said no that they were given food and shelter when necessary and being treated as heros still. He said that it will be better when they start using the new Qatari police vehicles for patrols instead of the armed pick-up trucks but that securoity was not seeming to be an issue at all.

Asking more about Bihaj, he said that three containers of weapons (ammo mostly) were said to have been Bilhaj's on the way to Tripoli so they were detained and are being held back, This raised suspicion on Bilhaj and so the various brigades throughout Tripoli have ben assigned checkpoints throughout the city to ensure that they can keep an eye on his movements and activities. He was absolutely firm that there were no Libyans that wanted to go from Ghaddafi to a bunch of fanatics. Something I had always believed too. He said even uneducated people he spoke to didn't want them."


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 18 Sep 11 - 07:19 AM

"Boys and girls chanted slogans against Moammar Gaddafi and teachers hanged an effigy of the fugitive leader as many Libyan children started their first school year without the "brother leader''dictating the curriculum.

Euphoria filled the halls on Saturday, but teachers admitted a lot needed to be done to overhaul an educational system where a main goal for nearly 42 years was to instill adoration of Gaddafi and what he touted as the greatest system of rule in the world - the "Jamahiriya,'' a utopian "rule by the masses'' that in reality boiled down to rule by Gadhafi.

The AP news agency reported that at the Al-Fayha Elementary School, boys dashed around the courtyard unfurling the red, black and green revolutionary flag that has replaced the old regime's green banner.

Students, many decked out in "Free Libya'' T-shirts in the same colors sang, "You are a free Libyan, raise your head up'' and other victory songs."

Al Jazeera


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Sep 11 - 10:59 AM

Meanwhile back on the front lines the Rebels are finding it tough going in terms of securing the Gadhafi-held strongholds of Sirte and Bani Walid (from Al Jazeera): Click here for update!

There may be progress reported later today on the make-up of the new Interim 36-member Cabinet

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Sep 11 - 12:47 PM

992 posts and none of us have an idea of what is really going on, we are constantly fed misinformation.
free people well lets wait and see, I reckon they could be replacing the devil they know with some devils they dont know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Sep 11 - 09:33 PM

Certainly you can reject UPI, Guardian, Washington Post, al-Jazeera, BBC, and virtually every other source of information, and believe that all the pictures and videos of rejoicing Libyans have been staged.   And choose to listen instead to the voices in your head---which evidently are telling you that kindly Uncle Muammar never meant any of his citizens any harm.

Or you can wake up.

Or stop smoking what you're smoking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 18 Sep 11 - 10:26 PM

I agree with Good Soldier's Schweik .... 993 posts, and 9 months later and it's still a fucking mess .... yup, we just have to wait and see.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 03:22 AM

and now Yemen......just wait and see,but be afraid....be very afraid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 11:01 AM

"just wait and see,but be afraid....be very afraid. - Akenaton

Of what??


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 05:56 PM

Teribus et aL-

"just wait and see,but be afraid....be very afraid." - Akenaton

Just his usual concern that the revolution will be taken over by Islamic fundamentalists.

Today there were some Rebel advances reported in the Gadhafi southern stronghold of Sabha (Al Jazeera): click here for update!

There seems no easy resolution for Sirte and Bani Walid where both sides are still slugging it out, with civilians caught in between.

And the final make-up of the new Interim Cabinet remains unresolved.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Songwronger
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 08:20 PM

Maybe that's why I rely primarily on Al Jazeera; I don't believe they're run by NATO, the CIA, or Al Qeada or Walt Disney.

Al Jazeera, no agenda, got it. Thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Songwronger
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 08:21 PM

1000


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