BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Aug 11 - 12:37 PM

Always willing to entertain further bets, ante up!

And its heartening to see pressure ratcheted up on Syria's dictator (and his ruling generals), even if Syria doesn't have much oil. It's about time.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Aug 11 - 09:07 AM

" they say 70%..."---delusional to the last, aren't you, Ake?    Whoever "they" are.    You maintain your record of people supporting your cause who know exactly what's happened in Muammar's closed society--but for some reason are themselves anonymous.    As I noted, your credibility is somewhat below zero.

Funny thing---you would have probably gotten the same "polling" result in Berlin around January 1945. Influenced by fear of the dictator?   Of course not.

Again the old question:    just how naive are you?



Meanwhile, it appears Charley may in fact win his latest bet.   I'll be only too happy to pay up.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Aug 11 - 01:49 PM

No offense taken Charley, I am not completely without humour.

I am certainly not a "politically correct" and a choice between a dictator like Fidel or Gadaffi and the Islamists would be no contest in my book.
As I've said a hundred times Gadaffi was reasonably good to his people ....but he did not suit the West or the fundamentalists...too much of a loose canon and difficult to control,so we have trumped up a reason the kill him and the thousands who support him.
They say that 70% of the population of Tripoli supports Gadaffi, are we going to bomb the insurgents to stop what may be a slaughter by the rebels,or do supporters of the Col not qualify as human beings?

Anyway, "democracy" is finished, it was never real, simply another tool in the capitalist box...we are as free as we are allowed to be and that means keep your grubby hands off the system.

The thought police are at the door.....four years in jail for posting on facebook.....what a fucking joke, soon every protest movement will be hammered, then we will have "liberal" fascism.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Aug 11 - 08:20 AM

akenaton-

So we're left the choice of supporting existing dictators or Islamic fundamentalists? And your preference is the dictator? Now that's hardly a politically correct preference for a long-time leftist.

I still have some faith in the sanity of the majority of Rebel fighters, that they want a better world for themselves and their families, and one that is essentially more democratic and a part of the Western world. But, I agree that they will have to fight hard to achieve that, and to prevent their revolution being captured by the Islamic fundamentalists.

But feel free to cheer for Gahdafi and what's left of his loyal followers. Hell, why not fly to Tripoli and join them in their bunker. (Well, that's an uncharacteristically ignoble remark; apologies in advance!)

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Aug 11 - 03:07 AM

Ron ...ever heard of foresight? most commentators are now saying what I've been alluding to for months.....and panic is setting in as the composition of the insurgency becomes apparent.

"He warned that the West had seriously underestimated the growing influence of Islamists and the "significant" role played by Libya's tribes, instead focusing on Western-educated liberals who "said the right things".

"Liberals who said the right things"......does that remind you of anyone Ron?.....Useful idiots?

The fundamentalists have played this to perfection, as in Iraq, using their bitterest enemies blinded by their own liberal ideology and greed, to fight their war and win their victory for them.

One by one the strong men are falling.....and ask yourself Ron, who are the only beneficiaries?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Aug 11 - 10:51 PM

akenaton-

A Western diplomat based in Benghazi described the prospect of Tripoli falling to the rebels as the "worst-case scenario"

Odd that this Western diplomat prefers to remain anonymous. But he certainly reinforces your position.

Yes, I agree that the NTC has challenging problems but they are somehow continuing to be effective on the battlefield, backed up by NATO. It is difficult to predict what will happen but I do expect there will be general celebration in Tripoli when Gadhafi and his gang are finally captured or run out.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Aug 11 - 10:31 PM

"there will be"

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Aug 11 - 10:31 PM

"there will be"

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Aug 11 - 10:28 PM

"A Western diplomat".    So this is your latest feeble excuse for deserting the rebels.

Of course there will a power vacuum when Gaddafi falls. Just like when Hitler fell.   How did it work out in Germany?    Where there also was a very weak democratic tradition.

One of the many reasons, besides the fact that Gaddafi has for 40 years made political parties or any other source of opposition to him in Libya impossible, is the fact that even now no one person can dare to call himself the head of the provisional council--since he would then be a marked man for Gaddafi's assassins    And dear sweet Muammar in fact has a long record of sending assassins all over the world to kill dissidents. Much less opposition in Libya itself.

Think Hitlerjugend.

If you would lift a finger to do a bit of research you would not have to be spoonfed this information.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Aug 11 - 10:19 PM

"typical Gadhafi rhetoric"

He has also called the rebels "rats" and "traitors".

Guess what other vicious dictator did the same thing.    Try Hitler.

Your faith, Ake, that Gaddafi's ranting would not be backed up with action is touchingly naive.    But at some point you actually should start living in the real world.

At this point you seem to have no connection with reality.

And, of course, since you cannot give direct quotes with sources, also no credibility.

Your main role in this thread seems to be comic relief. But the one joke you have is tired. You might try a different venue (different thread).

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Aug 11 - 05:35 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Aug 11 - 05:08 PM

From today's Times.

James Hider, Michael Evans, Deborah Haynes, Tom Coghlan Last updated August 17 2011 12:01AM
The collapse of Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's regime would lead to a dangerous power vacuum in Libya, with the Western-backed rebel leadership in disarray and not ready to take control, diplomatic and military sources have warned.

A Western diplomat based in Benghazi described the prospect of Tripoli falling to the rebels as the "worst-case scenario" in the present climate.

Signalling the extent of Nato's concerns amid speculation that the endgame is in sight, officials from the alliance told The Times that victory against the regime would result in what is now being referred to as "catastrophic success".

A senior alliance diplomat told The Times: "This is the phrase now being generally used in Nato, that we are facing a catastrophic success in Libya. And even if it's not catastrophic it will be chaotic success because the opposition is not ready to govern and there will be a vacuum if Gaddafi goes.

Deep and deadly divisions within the rebel National Transitional Council (NTC) appeared last month with the murder of the rebel army chief, General Abdel Fatah Younis, by one of his own militia groups, an unsolved killing that led to the Cabinet being dissolved. No new Cabinet has yet been formed.

"With the killing of Younis and the possible fall of Tripoli now, the planning has gone with the wind," said the Western diplomat, based in Benghazi. "There's no NTC structure at all, the executive committee is gone, nothing has taken its place. I think it'd be the worst case scenario if Tripoli falls right now, there'd be nobody to take charge."

He warned that the West had seriously underestimated the growing influence of Islamists and the "significant" role played by Libya's tribes, instead focusing on Western-educated liberals who "said the right things". Full article

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 18 Aug 11 - 12:06 AM

There are reports of discussions taking place on the Tunisian Island of Djerba between representatives from Gaddafi and members of the NTC. A member of the NTC, Wahid Bourchan, told AFP that many officials of the Gaddafi regime were seeking asylum in Europe, particularly in France.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Aug 11 - 11:09 PM

Rebel forces continue to tighten their grip around Tripoli according to various news reports. Here's the latest report from Al Jazeera: click here for story

There is still little clarity with regard to who was behind the assassination of the Rebel General. There are some interesting speculations who was behind it, and that the assassination has severely strained the National Transition Council.

Meanwhile it was also reported that the Libyan Interior minister and has family had fled by private plane to Cairo.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Aug 11 - 06:28 PM

The article from the Sunday Times ace war reporter Marie Colvin, is in todays Sunday Times.

I am unable to link to this article as I am not a subscriber.

I could cut and paste, but it is rather long.


By the way Ron, the reason that you and others on this thread support our involvement, appears to be, that you THINK the Col MAY HAVE been about to butcher the inhabitants of Benghazi, although he said no such thing.....nothing very "exact" about holding that position!

What he actually said, was that he would search out and find the criminals no matter where they were hiding.
Typical Gadaffi rhetoric!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Aug 11 - 03:00 PM

"government orders".    Exact quote, please--with exact source.

And "a Diplomat (sic)".    Again, exact source and exact quote, please.

"The Times" and one name doesn't cut it.   What are her sources?


Not that we'd ever suspect you were not totally objective, Ake.   Of course not.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 14 Aug 11 - 01:51 PM

"No.....Why do you ask?"

Because that is what Gaddafi was doing to his people and would still be doing if he was able to.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Aug 11 - 01:41 PM

No.....Why do you ask?

Without Western fire power this insurrection would be over long since with only a handful of casualties.

Just like Iraq, we are helping to install a regime which will be worse for the people of Libya than the one it replaces, (an Islamic State) and cause thousands of deaths in doing so.

Col Gadaffi's soldiers and civilians are human too....and their conditions of health, education and housing were the best in the area.

Do you really believe we are engaged there for reasons of freedom and democracy for Lybians?....if you do you are very naive indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 14 Aug 11 - 01:15 PM

Ake, is what Assad is doing to his people in Syria preferable to you?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Aug 11 - 12:44 PM

Big article in today's Times about the large numbers of Islamist activist in the ranks of the insurgents.

A Diplomat commented...."We've known about the growth of Islamists in the rebel ranks for some time, but have chosen to ignore it....to turn a blind eye, believed that they were few and they could handle it....I'm no longer sure, Its a mess."

It has now been revealed that Gen Younis and his aids were turned over to an Islamic militia on Govt orders, where they were tortured and killed........Marie Colvin the Times.


Just keep watching Egypt you goons!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Aug 11 - 11:50 AM

The end of August?      Charley, you must have a big bank account.   I'll take your bet. No way will it be over by the end of August (unfortunately).    My concern is that it looks like it has to be over by the end of September, since some NATO powers have said they will only support the campaign through September.

So the big push has to be now--but the outcome is still uncertain. Especially since the Union of African States is trying to tempt the rebels constantly with negotiations---but with Gaddafi still in Libya.    They need to stay strong on rejecting that idea totally.   It would be like the 3rd Reich negotiating peace with Hitler still in Germany.

There are still some who do in fact see Gaddafi as the embodiment of Libya--no surprise since he's been dictator for about 40 years. So he will no doubt have his version of the Hitlerjugend.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Aug 11 - 10:50 AM

Meanwhile on the other battlefield, in Libya, the Rebels according to Al Jazeera, are making progress on capturing the strategic town of Az-Zawiyah: click here for story

Opposition fighters fought for control of the towns of Gharyan and Az-Zawiyah on Sunday, attempting to cut off the southern coastal route from Tunisia that Gaddafi uses for supplies.

Zeina Khodr, Al Jazeera's correspondent in Az-Zawiyah, reported that the rebels had taken control of a bridge along which the highway from Tripoli to Tunisia runs, but that central areas of the city remained contested, with Gaddafi forces employing snipers and mortar fire.

The battle also raged near the gates of the city.

Al Jazeera's Khodr said opposition fighters claim "they have managed to take 70 per cent of the town, despite the threat of snipers still in the area".

Government forces are still resisting Rebels within the town and may be reinforced from Tripoli, a half hour away by road transport. But there are seems to be support for the Rebels from the resident population of the town.

So, this uncivil war could be wound up by the end of the month. Oh, yah, I've said that before. Any takers for another round of beer?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 04:22 PM

"As Ake has told you, it's not about money." That makes two of you brilliant thinkers.

Sorry, in the real world, money means something--or perhaps even a bit more than something.   Who knows, maybe someday you Leftists will start to understand.   Or maybe not.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 04:18 PM

Also--Peter--your ignorance is showing (again).   What a surprise.

You don't need huge defensive capabilities to cost the West hugely.    All you need to do is sponsor terrorism.    Which Muammar has promised to do.

I take it you have no problem with giving him part of the frozen $60 billion.   

Good thing you are far from the levers of power--and probably will always be so.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 04:08 PM

"...guilty and innocent".

Ah yes, another contribution from one of our main sources of ponderous platitudes.

With the classic moral relativism we have grown to know and love--and see constantly on the Left.


There is no comparison between the murderous regime of an unstable dictator and the rebel council in Benghazi.   If you think there is, who is your candidate for dictator in Benghazi?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 11:36 AM

In war, the guilty and innocent suffer regardless of whose side their on.

The bombing of Tripoli doesn't get to the root cause of the problem, a dictator who has
deluded his followers, a simplistic knee-jerk reaction by the US military to bomb away ideologies that they don't understand, a military solution which is the last way to alleviate problems in the world that require construction of buildings, educational facilities, eliminating corruption in law enforcement, (yes you Karzai), infrastructure, disease control not contamination through radiation, and a humane policy toward innocent people. not the wholesale murder of them.

Godzilla meets King Kong and the US government doesn't get it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 11 - 10:14 AM

"Oh! does that mean he cant kill any more civilians?"

Mounting an offensive against the rebel forces is one thing, the targeting and killing of civilians is quite another...........that's quite a reach there Ake, even for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 05:02 PM

The update from Al Jazeera today about the evolving situation in Brega is more guarded:

"Libya's opposition fighters are continuing their push to capture a strategic oil terminal in Brega, which is still in control of forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi.

The rebels took over the residential zone of New Brega, located about 15km from the central oil terminal and port area, on Thursday.

Mohammed Zawawi, the opposition spokesman, told the Reuters news agency on Friday it was still not safe to go into the city.

"Now we are trying to clear that area. There are some Gaddafi troops still there," Zawawi said.

Troops loyal to Gaddafi are holding onto the oil facilities and firing rockets at rebel positions. At least eight rebel fighters have been killed and another 25 wounded in the latest fighting.

"There's close fighting in the oil terminal area this morning, but maybe we can finish it off today," Mohammad Muftah, a rebel soldier, said."

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 01:43 PM

Oh! does that mean he cant kill any more civilians?

Suppose its time to bring all our war machines home then!

That'll be right!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 09:50 AM

Also reported today Charley is that Gaddafi's forces are now no longer capable of mounting offensive operations

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 07:41 AM

Just in case anyone is still interested, the Rebels claimed today (again) that they have full control of Brega.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 12:41 AM

800

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 10:08 PM

Gaddafi no longer able to mount credible offensive, continues recruitment of ruthless mercenaries -- Lieutenant-General Charles Bouchard.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/08/11/gaddafi-unable-to-launch-offensive-nato-commander/

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 01:21 AM

So appeals to the UN by the Arab League and the GCC played no part then Peter, is that what you are attempting to put across as the truth? If so you will have a tough time of it, because if memory serves me correctly it was not until they got involved that the UN acted.

Had there been no UNSCR 1973 would the bombing have occured? If that were true the bombing would have started earlier - it didn't. So the intervention in Libya is a direct result of actions taken and resolutions passed by the UN.

No huffing and puffing Peter K just plain old well documented and recorded fact. Ignore it if you wish but that will not alter the fact of the matter.

The Libyan Leader introduced a foreign or outside element to what up until then had been a purely domestic matter, that is what troubled the Arab League and the GCC, and they went to the UNSC. Again a fact. You don't like facts do you Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 06:28 PM

Whilst ignoring what caused UN (Note that Peter - UN) intervention in Libya.

Huff and puff till the cows come home, Teribus, but it won't ever make that statement right. It would have been more dignified to apologise.

On the question of mercenaries, you are flailing at a straw man. I do not question at all that Gadaffi used mercenaries. I was just laughing at your claim that it was Gadaffi's use of mercenaries that provoked the US bombing.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 06:00 PM

UN member states are involved in Libya at the specific request of the Security Council - The Resolution is UNSCR 1973 and that is fact not fiction.

So   "...what was happening in Libya in February and March this year would have been strictly internal too had Gaddafi not resorted to hiring in Mercenaries to kill Libyan citizens.

"Ingenious, but sheer tosh." Eh??

Care to point out anywhere in the quoted passage where I am in error. Gaddafi, or his sons most certainly gave the orders but large numbers of his officers and troops refused to obey them, so Gaddafi had to bring in mercenaries recruited from Niger, Mali, Algeria, Ghana and Burkina Faso.

Care to tell me where Assad in Syria is using mercenaries? Are Iran supplying the Syrian military with troops from their Revolutionary Guards?

"Could it not be that if a WMD programme is openly declared, countries who already have nuclear weapons try to interfere?" - PeterK

As the countries involved are signatories of the Nuclear NPT they have to follow the terms of the treaty should they wish to leave and develop nuclear weapons. It is all very well laid out and explained in the treaty document. By following to the letter the procedure for this then cuts the country off from receipt of technical aid or assistance from all other signatories, this did not suit Iran, Libya, Syria or North Korea.

Israel is not a signatory member of the Nuclear NPT her nuclear industry roughly dates the same as that of the UK and France and predates the NPT by about 13 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 05:36 PM

Peter's right Teribus.....is our war machine not being used to kill Libyan citizens?

Our leaders no longer even bother to contradict the claims that we are engaged in regime change in our national interst.

The bit about mercenaries justifying our involvement was particularly lame.
You must have had to really force yourself to write that.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 12:10 PM

Teribus, despite your particular emphasis on the point, I think you'll find that the UN is NOT engaged in Libya. The UN resolution committed no-one to war and certainly does not mean that this is a UN offensive.

There is only one reason you run a secret nuclear weapons programme - it means that you intend to use those weapons offensively - a secret nuclear weapons programme has no deterrent value whatsoever. Really, Teribus? Really?? Couldn't there be another reason? Could it not be that if a WMD programme is openly declared, countries who already have nuclear weapons try to interfere? (For some reason they are very proscriptive about who can join the club. Thus Israel ok, Iran no way.)

...what was happening in Libya in February and March this year would have been strictly internal too had Gaddafi not resorted to hiring in Mercenaries to kill Libyan citizens. Ingenious, but sheer tosh.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 10:09 AM

What I find risible is Peter K's position is that one size must fit all. Whilst ignoring what caused UN (Note that Peter - UN) intervention in Libya.

For years Libya was a pariah state which sponsored terrorism throughout the world and was isolated and contained. Then came 9/11 and the post-9/11 US Threat Evaluations where Libya found itself quite near the top of a list of countries that US Intelligence Agencies compiled as potential candidates for the role of "Rogue State", the list also included Iraq; Iran; Syria & North Korea.

This gave Col Muammar Gaddafi pause for thought particularly as he watched the heat being ratcheted up against the country on the top of the list - Iraq. Neither France, China or Russia were whispering in Gaddafi's ear as they were advising Saddam that, "The US are only bluffing. They won't do anything they can't do anything because we'll use our veto to stop them."

Then in March 2003 the USA took out the #1 Candidate for "Rogue State". Gaddafi folded because he knew something about the US Intelligence Agencies list of likely "Rogue State" candidates - ALL were running secret nuclear weapons programmes aided, abetted and facilitated by Dr A.Q.Khan's network.

Gaddafi lost his nerve and dramatically renounce ALL of Libya's WMD programmes and in the process of "coming clean" he led the revelation of Khan's highly illegal network and North Korea's involvement in it.

There is only one reason you run a secret nuclear weapons programme - it means that you intend to use those weapons offensively - a secret nuclear weapons programme has no deterrent value whatsoever.

As the layers of Khan's onion were pealed away Iran crash stopped its weapons programme in 2003 to see which way the wind was going to blow, but their secret uranium enrichment plants were now out in the open and known to the IAEA (Iran's programme was now no longer a secret so it's threat was neutralised) Syria's links with A.Q.Khan were investigated and Israeli aircraft with the assistance of Turkey wiped out the Syrian facility with an airstrike, Syria's protests were muted and no-one was allowed access to the site until Syrian and North Korean "experts" dismantled the site and sanitised it (Unfortunately not efficiently enough for the IAEA inspectors they detected traces of radio-active materials).

Come the "Arab Spring" and Peter K wants me to hypocritically condemn Libyan Rebels for seeking a democratic election in Libya whilst I must support Hamas in Gaza??

The Arab League requested UN intervention in Libya, they did not request intervention in either The Yemen; Bahrain or in Syria. Probably because whilst the Arab League and GCC could regionally influence what was happening in Yemen; Bahrain & Syria - they could not in Libya (Both of Libya's neighbours east and west were in turmoil having just experienced their own "revolutions").

Unfortunately degrees of unpleasantness do not dictate what the UN can or cannot do. What is happening in Syria is strictly an internal matter, what was happening in Libya in February and March this year would have been strictly internal too had Gaddafi not resorted to hiring in Mercenaries to kill Libyan citizens.

On degrees of unpleasantness Peter what did the UN do about Darfur? Nothing - Right? Much worse than either Libya; Syria or what was happening in Iraq at that time. "Worst humanitarian disaster of our time" said Kofi Annan, but he refused to term it genocide as GWB did, because then the UN would have been automatically compelled by its charter to act.

The middle-east is tricky enough as it is Syria has Iran as an ally and has the potential to set the region alight so it requires extremely careful handling which is why your "one-size-fits-all" cannot work.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 08:00 AM

Teribus's post at 31 Jul 11 - 05:39 AM above is exceptional nonsense even by his own standards. He accepts that kicking out Gadaffi could make way for a worse regime regime (albeit democratic). But that's ok, he says - we'll deal with it. Another war? And does he think that one would also be legitimised by Arab-league endorsement? (
His whole tack is risible in any case, as evidenced by the west's response to belligerent islamic fundamentalism in Iran.

The extraordinary thing about this thread is the determination to ignore what's happening in Syria. Horrors so bad that even Saudi's King Abdullah has condemned them. Yet Ron solemnly declares that we must confine ourselves to Libya and ignore the wider context. No wonder. His argument that Gadaffi's unpleasant style of leadership justifies war falls to the ground when Syria is considered. For as I pointed out dozens of posts ago, however unpleasant Gadaffi may be, Assad is infinitely unpleasanter.

All Ron can do is witter on about Gadaffi's $60bn. He fails to take on board that Libya by international norms has very light defences. Get real, Ron. You can't build a national defensive capability for $60bn. And it would take vastly more than that to give it offensive capability. Oh, and it would take many years, and the whole scenario of Gadaffi withdrawing some cash and buying some guns is grossly improbable anyway.

As again I said earlier, Libya was a soft option for the west, and they're struggling even with that. Syria on the other hand is armed to the hilt, which is why its wantonly brutal regime will continue unchecked if the US and UK have anything to do with it.

As Ake told you, Ron, it's not about money. It's about will. And where there's a will there's a way. Witness the humble Taliban's success in taking out (in open warfare) some guys from the unit that murdered Bin Laden.

As for all the prattling about democracy, that's bollocks. For the west the flag of democracy is no more than a flag of convenience - an excuse to replace Saddam, for instance, with a regime that suppresses women's rights. Kissinger, for all his faults, was at least being honest when he said in relation to the other 9/11: "I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its people. The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 01:22 PM

Ron-

Bad news is bad news.

Here's an interesting clip from today's Guardian:

Muammar Gaddafi's son, Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, said he was forging a behind-the-scenes alliance with radical Islamist elements among the Libyan rebels to drive out their more liberal-minded confederates . It was difficult to assess how serious Gaddafi was about this. At one point he said: "Libya will look like Saudi Arabia, like Iran. So what?" Guma al-Gamaty, a London-based co-ordinator for the rebel National Transitional Council, said Gaddafi was "bluffing" in order to "scare the west". "There's nothing in it," he said, pointing out that the Gaddafis had in the past claimed that the rebels were Islamists; his comments now proved those accusations were "totally false", he said. Islamist leader Ali Sallabi said he had had conversations with Gaddafi but dismissed the idea that they had formed an alliance.

Very cleaver, how fast Gadhafi moves to reinforce Rebel disarray in the wake of the assassination of General Younes.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 10:22 AM

My understanding is that the Younis killing could have been a result of tribal rivalries. It could have been revenge for something Younis did while a Gaddafi general.. It could have been financed by Gaddafi.   Or other possible factors.   Or a combination of the above.

Point is:   the perpetrators should be caught and punished. And the entire Gaddafi opposition should return to the business at hand:   removing Gaddafi from power.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 10:20 AM

Ah, we are not allowed to speculate?

Sounds ominous!

I thought you were a democrat Ron?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 09:41 AM

My point is that even speculating about a CIA connection plays into the hands of those who want the West to end military involvement--and thus into Gaddafi's hands. So it's not helpful. The rebels have enough problems without fearing that their ostensible supporters are killing their leaders.

The paranoia should be on Gaddafi's side. Which is why the $10 million on his head would have worked wonders.    There doesn't even have to be a successful plot to kill Gaddafi--consider Hitler's behavior after 20 July 1944.    Didn't exactly help his war effort.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 09:18 AM

Ron-

"any concrete evidence of CIA complicity in the Younis killing?"

The short answer, which should not be surprising, is "No!" I have no contacts within the CIA and they haven't admitted any complicity publicly.

General Khalifa Haftr has been linked by some bloggers to the CIA but evidently only because his home in exile in Fairfax, Virginia, is within five miles of CIA headquarters. And no one I'm aware of has suggested that Haftr was directly involved in the assassination of General Younes, but Haftr is logically the Rebel general who will benefit the most from his death. Connecting the dots as I've been doing is not conclusive proof of anything but does raise a question that I think merits further research.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 03:27 AM

Not so Ron....right from the start I have said that the insurrectionists are comprised of diverse groups, amonst those groups are some misty eyed idealists I am sure.

In fact, I was once such a person myself.....but the pills worked wonders!

From most of the reports, it appears that radical Islamists and opportunist tribal factions make up the bulk, or the most powerful elements of the insurgency, backed of course by countries who have a serious selfish interest in ousting the Col.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 09:53 PM

And Ake, you were in fact smearing the entire Libyan opposition to Gaddafi with a phrase guaranteed to be a red flag to Westerners.    Which is exactly what I said.   And such smearing is both a low and an effective tactic.   So you have shaky ground to stand on in complaining of an aggressive post in response.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 09:46 PM

"of course that of those who share your viewpoint"

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 09:44 PM

Ake--just answer the question about the $60 billion.   Or admit you don't have an answer.   Your arguments are very weak.    If you don't like this being pointed out, you can come up with stronger ones.    Or possibly just not comment further.

People are being killed in Libya every day since this is dragging on.   It is no joke and sometimes it seems to me opponents of the West's military involvement actually think there is a reasonable alternative to seeing this through to Gaddafi's removal from power.   Any other alternative is a disaster.   Your obstructionism--and of course those others of your viewpoint-- helps nobody except Gaddafi, and as I said, your arguments are worse than threadbare.




Charley--Do you have any concrete evidence of CIA complicity in the Younis killing?   I have read the articles you linked to and see none.    Have I missed something?    CIA involvement is exactly the sort of spectre the Left is constantly seeing in any incident--so if there is something really there it needs to be brought out, and if there is nothing, the speculation only plays into the hands of Gaddafi.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 05:05 PM

Oh, and I misspelled "Khalifa Haftr" first name in my post above. He's certainly a curious character who surfaced in Libya at the end of March with a good deal of media fanfare, remarks of how sharp he looked in his non-military attire.

For a while he was actively vying for the job of commander in chief but General Younes appeared to come out on top. I can't seem to find any recent mention of Haftr. Maybe someone else will have better luck. He may no longer even be a major player. However, if I were writing a screen play for the Libyan Civil War, I would certainly cast him as a CIA operative.

Charley Noble