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BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011

bobad 01 Apr 11 - 12:26 PM
Charley Noble 01 Apr 11 - 12:50 PM
Little Hawk 01 Apr 11 - 12:53 PM
akenaton 02 Apr 11 - 04:25 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 02 Apr 11 - 04:43 AM
Charley Noble 02 Apr 11 - 10:03 AM
bobad 02 Apr 11 - 10:21 AM
Charley Noble 02 Apr 11 - 11:02 AM
Ron Davies 02 Apr 11 - 03:44 PM
Stringsinger 02 Apr 11 - 05:38 PM
Teribus 02 Apr 11 - 06:22 PM
akenaton 03 Apr 11 - 03:56 AM
bobad 03 Apr 11 - 07:02 AM
akenaton 03 Apr 11 - 10:58 AM
Stringsinger 03 Apr 11 - 03:01 PM
Stringsinger 03 Apr 11 - 03:11 PM
GUEST,999 03 Apr 11 - 03:31 PM
Teribus 03 Apr 11 - 08:05 PM
Charley Noble 03 Apr 11 - 09:05 PM
GUEST,999 03 Apr 11 - 10:26 PM
Charley Noble 04 Apr 11 - 07:43 AM
Teribus 04 Apr 11 - 10:20 AM
Little Hawk 04 Apr 11 - 01:27 PM
Charley Noble 04 Apr 11 - 02:13 PM
J-boy 05 Apr 11 - 12:11 AM
Teribus 05 Apr 11 - 12:22 AM
J-boy 05 Apr 11 - 12:27 AM
goatfell 05 Apr 11 - 12:57 PM
akenaton 05 Apr 11 - 02:56 PM
GUEST,999 05 Apr 11 - 04:06 PM
Charley Noble 05 Apr 11 - 04:11 PM
Teribus 05 Apr 11 - 05:25 PM
akenaton 06 Apr 11 - 03:50 AM
Charley Noble 06 Apr 11 - 08:25 AM
akenaton 06 Apr 11 - 12:00 PM
Teribus 06 Apr 11 - 12:20 PM
Little Hawk 06 Apr 11 - 01:38 PM
Little Hawk 06 Apr 11 - 01:51 PM
Teribus 06 Apr 11 - 05:03 PM
Little Hawk 06 Apr 11 - 08:45 PM
Charley Noble 06 Apr 11 - 10:40 PM
Ron Davies 06 Apr 11 - 10:59 PM
Ron Davies 06 Apr 11 - 11:14 PM
GUEST,999 07 Apr 11 - 01:17 AM
akenaton 07 Apr 11 - 03:58 AM
Ron Davies 07 Apr 11 - 10:38 AM
Charley Noble 07 Apr 11 - 10:51 AM
Teribus 07 Apr 11 - 11:31 AM
Charley Noble 07 Apr 11 - 12:52 PM
akenaton 07 Apr 11 - 04:01 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 12:26 PM

"my point is that we in the developed West, regularly practice terrorism"

Yet you choose to live there and support it with your taxes and see no contradiction with that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 12:50 PM

With regard to the 1986 bombing having killed Gadhafi's infant daughter, Wkipedia summary raises some questions:

"According to medical staff in the nearby hospital, two dozen people arrived in military uniform and two without uniform. Total Libyan casualties are estimated at 60, including casualties at the bombed airbases. However, the regime created a propaganda campaign with varying stories about killed civilians. For example, the regime's media claimed that Gaddafi's "adopted daughter" had been killed. The name "Hanna" was given to the press. Nobody had ever heard of such daughter. Information about her was also conflicting, for example, her age varied from 12 months to 6 years. Despite absurdity and variations of the stories, the campaign was so successful that a large proportion of the Western press reported the regime's stories as facts."

But there is little doubt that "some civilians" were killed in the retaliation bombing raid, as authorized by President Reagan.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 12:53 PM

He "chooses" to live there? ;-) Come on. That's a pointless remark, but one I hear people make often when they are looking to take a shot at someone over some political opinion the person has expressed.

It isn't that he chose to live there, bobad, it's that life itself placed him there when he was born, same as it did you, me, and millions of other people who were born in the western countries.

It's the hand he was dealt, and so he deals with it. He pays the taxes, because he has no choice about the matter. He is not obliged to agree with all the policies of the society he lives in just because he lives there.

For him to uproot his entire life and move somewhere else to some complete other culture just to satisfy your rhetorical need to take a shot at him would be...ridiculous. ;-D And even if he did move somewhere else...anywhere else...it's very probable that he would disagree with certain aspects of that society too. So would he then be obliged to move yet again to some other culture? And where would his search for total approval of a culture end? ;-D Nowhere, that's where.

He didn't choose anything about it. He IS there. Period. And he disagrees with his culture's political conduct in a number of respects. That does not mean he "supports" it with his taxes or any other crap like that nor is it a contradiction. It's a fact that arises out of the fact that life is not as dead simple as your jibe to Akenaton would appear to make it.

I also think that the West practices a great deal of terrorism...and I have no intention of moving away from here, because my whole life is here, my friends are here, and much that I love is here...nor do I support that terrorism when I pay my taxes. I simply pay my taxes because there's no way of avoiding doing so, that's all.

I accept the fact that I live in a complicated and imperfect world where things are not perfect and never will be, and there's not a hell of a lot I can do about that. Don't ask me why I don't move somewhere else, okay? Cos it's a damn silly question.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 04:25 AM

BBC news Sat.

Insurgents are using warplanes to bomb govt troops in "UN no fly zone"....civilians have been killed in rebel air strike.
UN arms embargoe does not seem to apply to insurgents who may already have been supplied with weapons in contravention of UN resolution.

We are using terrorism to affect regime change in what is basically an insurection, at a time when our own people are being punished for the failure of capitalism.

Could this be an organised distraction from what is being done to workers, pensioners, and the sick in the United Kingdom?

Mr Obama seems to have been right to pause and think hard about US involvement in Libya......unfortunately Hillary the Hawk is ready to strike, not only at Libya, but at Mr Obama himself.

As I said years ago inviting Hill n' Bill into his admin. was Mr Obama's biggest and terminal mistake.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 04:43 AM

It was wrong to go into Libya. It was not thought out properly and they seem to have completely overlooked the 'rebels' are nothing more than local people who've got carried away with a spur of the moment idea, rather than a pre-planned and well thought out decision, to take back their country.

They were saying today on BBC News how the rebels are now being given AK47s, with no training..and guess what, in their excitement (and hysteria) they're firing these things off, wounding and killing each other and themselves...They seemed to find this almost er...puzzling.

Puzzling? WHY would they be feeling that way????

I've not got all the ins and outs as to why we're over there, but I tell you this, it's got hardly anything to do with protecting yer average Libyan person in the street..I find it all quite sinister, to be honest..

Never mind, I expect that eventually MwaMwa and his government will all flee to......England...and set up home over here...and Mr. Al Libyani will take over, issue AK47s to ALL his citizens, increase the price of oil by 600% and life will be just hunkydory for everyone.

I wonder if we're going to give Mousa Kousa a Council House? I've heard there's one going next door to Chicken Licken here in Torquay...and apparently Turkey Lurkey and Henny Penny from Liverpool, have put in a request for him to come and live in their road, as they feel it would be great to buy Mousa Kousa an alcohol-free beer down at their local...

Oh dear me...what an horrendous palava, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 10:03 AM

Evidently the Rebels have driven Gadhafi forces out of Brega again according to this detailed report from Al Jazeera: click here for report!

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 10:21 AM

Charley, apparently the rebels are reporting that they have retaken Brega but the report you linked to dates from March 3.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 11:02 AM

Bodad-

Have to be more careful. Thanks for the correction.

I was wondering why there was a report of a Libyan jet doing a bombing run.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 03:44 PM

So now supposedly the rebels have asked for a ceasefire.    How's that for throwing a monkeywrench into the business?    There are some conditions, one being Cadhafi's forces withdrawing from cities they are now besieging.   Another:   "freedom of expression for our western brothers".

Source: al-Jazeera 2 April 2011.

So we'd probably take this news with a sizable grain of salt, to say the least, unless confirmed elsewhere.



Of course the report is true and if Gadhafi rejects these terms, it might give the rebels a stronger hand---more clearly the moral high ground.

Which might result in more direct military aid from the West.

But now we're obviously into the area of total speculation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 05:38 PM

"As far as applying the Gaddafi Precedent goes, there would be a stronger case for action against Hamas in Gaza than against Israel."

When you compare the amount of casualties of the Palestinians,
they are far greater than what Israel has suffered. In their actions, there might not be that much difference between Gaddafi and Netanyahu. Throw in Copasset in Indonesia,
Kalifa in Bahrain, Assad in Syria, Salleh in Yemen and Bush in the U.S. And now we have a runaway President who would be king.

As to the terrorist label, there are so many examples in the world from so many countries that it becomes a matter of partisan name-calling and the term has lost its meaning.

The argument for bombing anyone today becomes sheer sophistry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 06:22 PM

Stringsinger, tell me how many people inside Gaza have been killed by Hamas. Tell me how many people have been killed inside Israel by the Israeli Government.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 03:56 AM

Back to Libya, Fourteen insurgents and medics killed yesterday in UN backed air strikes.....by accident of course.

Arab opinion hardening against "Western involvement"

Cameron, Sarkozy and the other adventurers could find they have bet the wrong horse once again.

Mr Obama's hesitancy may be vindicated and Hillary shown for what she really is.

This is getting interesting


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 07:02 AM

"Friday's air strike came as rebels shot tracer fire into the air to celebrate the entry of an advance column into Brega.

"It was a mistake" by the rebels, Khamis said. "The aircraft thought they were coming under attack and fired on the convoy."

Speaking to Al Jazeera earlier, Mustafa Gheriani, a Transitional National Council spokesman, said the loss of lives on Friday was very much regretted.

"However, we understand that collateral damage may also take place and we do accept it, because we look at the big picture which saving more lives.

"So a few people being victims of circumstances or of being at the wrong time or the wrong place it is more or less very bad luck," Gheriani said.

Al Jazeera


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 10:58 AM

The people who are at the "wrong time and the wrong place" are the coalition of the unwilling......US!

Mr Obama actually seems too decent for the politics game.
He is being pushed into another "dumb" war by his arch enemy Warrior princess Clinton and her associates in the White House.
Playing politics with peoples lives.

Beware America!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 03:01 PM

Teribus, the Israeli government has second-class citizens in it's midst. Those who have been banned to the hinterlands (bantustans) have been mass slaughtered. The age-old
question prevails. Who was there first?

Not likely that ardent Zionists are about to kill each other. They reserve that right for others.

With this logic, the white men killed no Native Americans.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 03:11 PM

The problem in taking sides in a civil war is that the US doesn't really know who they are supporting. The so-called rebels might be just as dictatorial and authoritarian as Gaddafi.

The trouble is that when you try to resolve differences with weaponry, the risk is run
of an out-of-control outcome.

There are hawks who religiously subscribe to this mode of solving political problems but they create as many or more problems as they solve.

The biggest mistake they made in Egypt is to trust their military to make decisions.

The Egyptian military love to check that all their women are virgins.

What about the Second World War? Could it have been resolved differently?
Evidence is coming out now that says that it could have with a greater understanding of peaceful non-violent resistance. I refer everyone to Gene Sharp. He can be obtained by search engines.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 03:31 PM

"The problem in taking sides in a civil war is that the US doesn't really know who they are supporting. The so-called rebels might be just as dictatorial and authoritarian as Gaddafi."

Don't you mean that the UN doesn't know who it's supporting?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 08:05 PM

Hey Stringsinger we are talking here about the "Gaddafi Precedent" i.e. a Government deliberately turning its armed forces against the population of the country. Now stop f**king about and tell me how many of their own population have Hamas killed in Gaza, and how many of thier own population have Israel killed in Israel. Seems a pretty logical question to ask, now give me an answer, don't wriggle.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 09:05 PM

Teribus-

I think you might agree that unless NATO forces resumes aggressive bombing of Gadhafi's front-line troops, the Rebels may collapse entirely. At this point it seems to me that the Rebels need to establish some kind of defensible front-line position while they regroup for training and new supplies. Of course front lines in Libya appear to be endemically permeable.

No Western country in its right mind is going to commit more than trainers and special forces on the ground. What do you think the prospect is for the Rebels now?

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 10:26 PM

Regis Debray wrote the book on little wars. This is NOT a little war. When disorganized (read undisciplined troops) engage disciplined troops, even at or near equal strengths, the disciplined troops win. We tend to think that 'will' matters. It indeed does, but only when that will is supported by arms. Tanks vs men: who wins? Many who post here likely remember 1956 or 1989 when that was demonstrated and shown beyond doubt.

The UN mandate has laid out the rules of this engagement. The rebels are ill-disciplined troops. The government troops are poor as troops, but they have practiced (I prefer practised as the verb). The reason Castro's--and yes, 'Che's'--people won was due to the inability of the Batista government to keep it's troops in line. Soldiers will die in those kinds of fights if the ideology is entrenched. AND they will make their defeaters wish they'd never got into it in the first place.

The French at Dien Bien Phu fought valiantly. An acquaintance of mine was in the FFL, and he knew and knows the requirements of being in a 'unit' like that. Part of the deal is that you volunteer and then train and then do the job. Period. If you ain't game for that--and it always seems like a good idea at the time--then don't join, and 'Don't cry for me Argentina'.

Problem here is that the troops are big on rhetoric and short on munitions, discipline, training and 'end game philosophy'. When men--and now women (a philosophy with which I disagree), although I think women should also have the right to 'die for their country'--and although I agree with Patton that it's my responsibility to make some other bastard die for his country--unless there is a unified command, there is NO command.

The rebels may die in a 'last stand' (and that will be an example of a superior force being met by resolve and study by Tonka Wakon (Crazy Horse in my world): they will not do so because of lack of resolve; they will do so because of a lack of arms. And we will say later that there was nothing we could do.

Frank, a man whose philosophy I admire has three times refused to tell me what WE should do when in the process of non-violently protesting an egregious wrong the people against whom we protest hit us. Well, I suppose we are supposed to get hit. Not me, and not anymore. Been there, done it, and fuck that.

Think as you wish, but please understand we are not cohesive in these terms. We did this before in Hungary and Czechslovakia. We were wrong then, and we would be equally wrong now.

imo

Those wishing to castigate me for this view may do so, but two people are the only ones I will answer: Teribus and Little Hawk..

No offense to anyone else.

BM


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 07:43 AM

This report just in:

"Reporting from Tripoli, Libya— Italy on Monday formally recognized the rebel government of eastern Libya, dealing yet another blow to the embattled regime of Col. Moammar Kadafi.

Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini said Rome would open an office in rebel-held territory and formally recognize the Benghazi-based Libyan National Council as the only representative of the country, which Italy once ruled as a colonial ward and to which it maintains deep cultural and economic ties. Italy joins France as the second Western country to formally recognize the rebel government."

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 10:20 AM

To answer your question Charlie, I see the rebels located in the east of the country's cause no different now from when the UN resolution was passed. The UN resolution is so worded that it makes it very easy for those involved to provide an umbrella of air cover to act and prevent Gaddafi's forces overwhelming the rebels in Benghazi. The fighting by rebel forces in the west of Libya is a little harder to support as they are already fighting inside the city of Misrata.

How I think it should be played for here on in?

1: It was extremely important that France, Qatar and now Italy have officially recognised the rebel ruling council as the "Government of Libya". That semantically overcomes the accusation about interfering in a civil war and bi-lateral agreements can be made between those "Governments".

2: Gaddafi apparently if reports are to be believed is furiously casting round to find a means of ending this. If both sides agree to hold talks (Note: Agree to hold talks - Not actually hold talks) then the UN can order in "boots-on-the-ground" in the form of a "Peacekeeping Force" and that will form a physical barrier between the warring factions. Normally these troops are pretty ineffectual but the force can be tailored to meet the needs of the situation. Ideally this force would be provided by the member states of the Arab League but it must not initially include troops from any "western" nation. Once Gaddafi's forces attack the "Peacekeepers" as I am sure that they would do, then the gloves can come off and other troops can be deployed to help the UN contingent on the ground and take on the aggressors, this basically is Misrata's only hope and it is important as it is one of Gaddafi's two oil terminals.

3: Time is the key, already the rebels are beginning to form a more disciplined fighting force. The rebels are being reinforced in terms of arms and supplies from Egypt, whereas Gaddafi's forces are becoming more and more isolated internationally, unfortunately there are massive stockpiles of arms and munitions inside Libya. Airstrikes under the present "Rules of Engagement" have hit some of these but it must be assumed that Gaddafi's forces still possess sufficient material to engage the rebels. Alternatively Gaddafi's troops hurried offensive may indicate that sufficient of these stores have been destroyed and he must defeat the rebels quickly, or grab as much as the country as possible before he reaches the point where he must agree to talk.

4: Gaddafi's forces have altered their tactics and have abandoned conventional strikes using armour and artillery, they too now roam about in "technicals" and must appear very similar to the rebels they are fighting to observers and from the air. This is where UAV's might come into the picture as they have an extended "loiter time" over the battlefield and can "pick-off" targets at will.

5: Italy relies strongly on oil & gas from Libya, as do Germany and France, so for Europe the only outcome that is in anyway acceptable to them is one in which Gaddafi is removed, because should he survive this "rebellion" then any idea of the rapproachment with the west can be thrown right out of the window.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 01:27 PM

My sympathies were originally with the civilians who launched peaceful protests against the Gadhafi regime. The regime chose to respond with violence. Since then the situation has grown more and more complicated, and I frankly don't know what to make of it now. (shrug) Nor do I know quite what to make of the various western responses to it. Perhaps they find it as confusing as I do. ;-) I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case.

At any rate, I have no stake at present in arguing with anyone here about it. I'm simply watching to see what will happen next.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 02:13 PM

Here's today's update from Al Jareera with regard to Rebel efforts in and around Brega and the successful evacuation via a NATO ship from Misurata of hundreds of injured fighters and civilians: Click here for article

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: J-boy
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 12:11 AM

War sucks. But more importantly it is stupid. We have to quit this ridiculous game before it's too late. We are living on borrowed time. Our luck is about to run out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 12:22 AM

"War sucks. But more importantly it is stupid."

Just as well then that we are not at war with anyone isn't it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: J-boy
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 12:27 AM

"Mankind must put an end to war or war must put an end to mankind."-JFK. He knew the absurdity and horror of it up close.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: goatfell
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 12:57 PM

the bully boys of the wworld are at it again and then there will 'freindly' fire so watch out you british


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 02:56 PM

How cynically Teribus promotes the manipulation of others.

I suppose even he will admit that if conditions worsen in the UK or US due to the recent failure of the capitalist system, unemployment rates rise, public services are attacked, pensions and savings disappear.......should an armed socialist insurrection arise to combat these attacks, our government would react in exactly the same manner as Col Gadaffi's regime. The army would be let loose on the insurgents.....they would be massacred in the "National Interest"

During a lifetime of politics watching, I have observed that "Democracy", "Sovereignty", "Freedom"etc, revert to the status of words with many meanings.....when the system or regime is under threat

To attemt to implant Western style "democracy" in Libya, is as mad as our recent adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan....a gift to the fundamentalists of Islam.

Many observers see the hands of Al Quaeda behind the insurgency, and there may be some truth in that, but I see a portion of the insurgents as young people doing what young people do, without much regard for the consequences.

I see the vultures circling over Libya, as they circled over Iraq,

A pudgy spoiled public shoolboy...(Bunter Cameron) hoping to earn his spurs by bringing down his very own Saddam.
An unwilling Obama pushed forward by the White House female birds of prey.
An unpopular French president drooling over oil rights for a victorious, murderous, Europe, and hovering over all, the black wings of Islamic fundamentalism".


We should all be ashamed of what we foster....and the shite we talk of human rights and equality.....welcome to the real world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 04:06 PM

Whether or not I agree with you, Ake, I do have one question.

What should the world do if TMWATNs wins and begin to execute the rebels forces?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 04:11 PM

Ake-

So lest I misunderstand you, do you have any criticism left for Col Gadaffi?

I may have missed some of his good points in the last 40 years.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 05:25 PM

Ehmm Ake, the capitalist system as failed many times, sometimes a damn sight worse than it's present woes, but guess what? It is a resilient, flexible and adaptable system that is not shackled to a whole load of political bullshit, so it keeps bouncing back - Same could not be said for the alternative Marxist Communist Socialist systems that always kept falling flat on their backsides but which never ever recover and get back up again.

Attempts to "implant western style democracy"? Where? Afghanistan was a democracy (had been since about 1929) before the Communist PDPA and the Soviet 40th Army completely screwed the place up. Iraq was given a completely free hand to establish its own assemblies and write their own constitution. In what way are "WE" (The big bad west) forcing anything on the people of Libya? None as far as I can see.

In the post you were responding to I was predicting not promoting anything, I was asked a direct question and I answered it, novel sort of a concept for most around here I know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 03:50 AM

Cynicism Teribus?......How's this?
1: It was extremely important that France, Qatar and now Italy have officially recognised the rebel ruling council as the "Government of Libya". That semantically overcomes the accusation about interfering in a civil war and bi-lateral agreements can be made between those "Governments".

So we are to adopt insurgents and recognise them as the official govt, to undermine any regime we dont happen to like/agree with?
Very "democratic"!......Could this also be applied to "the Taliban"?
Sunni/Shia insurgents in Iraq?.... The IRA?....the list is endless.

As you appear to be doing a bit of uncharacteristic wriggling, maybe I can be allowed one little wriggle.
I was not advocating a socialist insurgency....just providing a debating point. Capitalism survives by searching out other resources and people to exploit, when a society becomes unsustainable.
We have just run out of options......I dont think it will be long before we see much civil unrest, and the democratic mask will surely slip.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 08:25 AM

Ake-

You evidently didn't notice my question above:

So lest I misunderstand you, do you have any criticism left for Col Gadaffi?

I may have missed some of his good points in the last 40 years.


Or is it irrelevant to this discussion?

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 12:00 PM

I think it is a little irrelevant Charley.....as far as I am concerned, but others may wish to respond to that line.
I didn't mean to be discourteous in not answering....I just dont know if he is guilty of the crimes which he is supposed to have committed.

I do know that there is a huge question mark over the Lockerbie attrocity and in all likelyhood Gadaffi was not involved.

Just as a matter of interest, I was travelling to a greyhound track on the M6 not far from Lockerbie that night.
Our party heard the news on BBC radio and turned back.

I am quite impressed by the way Gadaffi has treated his people regarding Health and education compared to other leaders in that area, but if I had been a young Libyan, full of youthful protest, I might well have been amongst the insurgents.

I joined the Communist party at seventeen in protest, in the days when it meant the loss of your house and your job and I'm still a "believer" to a certain extent tho' I can now see the down side.

I dont believe we have any chance of living fulfilled lives under "liberal democracy" The whole thing is a circus.....a fantasy and a dangerous one at that.

The promotion of "democracy" now seems to be one of the main causes of death and destruction on the planet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 12:20 PM

"So we are to adopt insurgents and recognise them as the official govt, to undermine any regime we dont happen to like/agree with?
Very "democratic"!......Could this also be applied to "the Taliban"?
Sunni/Shia insurgents in Iraq?.... The IRA?....the list is endless."


Yep that about covers it.

By the way it WAS APPLIED to the Taliban only in that instance they were playing the role Gaddafi is currently playing in Libya today.

It was applied in Iraq against the insurgents and foreign jihadi fighters "Sunni Awakening"

Talking about lauding "Democracy" Akenaton you old Commie You!!

Tell me when Gaddafi, or the Taliban for that matter ever stood for election?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 01:38 PM

Elections in themselves are no guarantee of achieving a genuine democracy. But they're a start... ;-)

I think our present elections in the USA, Canada, and the UK are largely a sham, a charade, and the reason I think that is that no matter which party gets elected you end up with substantially the same policies being enacted once they're in office. (there are trivial differences...but only trivial ones, in my opinion)

I think that's happening because all the (larger) parties have ended up being bought out by the financial elite, therefore they serve that financial elite, not the public who elects them.

And there's absolutely nothing the general public can do about it as things presently stand, because if all the major political parties tacitly serve the same entrenched special interests, then your vote is rendered meaningless.

Nevertheless....it's still a bit better than being ruled by a single autocratic dictator-for-life such as Mr Gadhaffi. ;-) Just thought I'd better mention that before anyone goes off the deep end and assumes I am saying something I'm not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 01:51 PM

Let me add further emphasis to that...

It's still QUITE a bit better than being ruled by a single autocratic dictator-for-life such as Mr Gadhaffi.

However, I think what really has secured our civil rights and our generally peaceable societies in the English-speaking world is simply the long established social traditions those societies have been built upon, and which we are all accustomed to. We grow up with those traditions which include such rights as free speech, freedom of assembly, due process of law, and so on. That bulwark of tradition tends to maintain itself, and that is mainly what has protected us against the establishment of a violent dictatorship.

I don't think our fractious and divisive political parties have been of much assistance in maintaining our freedoms...although there is one good thing about them: they each serve as a watchdog on what the other is doing, and that's not the case in a single party state.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 05:03 PM

"Elections in themselves are no guarantee of achieving a genuine democracy. But they're a start"

And a damn sight better guarantee than you get from some person or some group that gains power by force of arms.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 08:45 PM

I would say that's generally correct.

The American revolutionaries siezed power by force of arms...and some of them wanted to crown George Washington as their first king! To Washington's everlasting credit, he did not take them up on that offer, and the revolution resulted in a representative government instead.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 10:40 PM

I did take us 20 years or so to work out the kinks in the model. Sometimes a George Washington or a Nelson Mandela is essential to the mix.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 10:59 PM

Ran across an interesting thesis on the topic:    author said that Chavez is a bosom buddy of Gadhafi:    a big reason being that he admires him for taking power in a coup, not an election.

Supposedly Chavez wishes he himself had done so.

In many ways, they are in fact birds of a feather.

Chavez does not appear so vicious--yet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 11:14 PM

OK, Ake.

"Education" in Libya is a plus?

Only if your taste runs to no dissent--on pain of death.   Starting a political party is a capital offense.

And selective ignorance--teaching English and French, for instance, is banned.

But perhaps you think the masses don't need that anyway.


Just why do you think the rebels are heaviiy populated by intellectuals--and dissident military officers.?




Even Gadhafi's "heir apparent" has recognized the need for reform for quite a while.


Which is a big reason he is suspect among the real hard-core Gadhafi supporters==those who aren't just foreign mercenaries.

And a serious obstacle to his taking over smoothly if Gadhafi should leave the scene suddenly.

Which we should be encouraging.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 01:17 AM

I've known Ake for a good five or six years, and while we have occasional disagreements, he remains pretty much a pacifist and he's often been right that the West's motivations have been absolutely wrong. The invasion of Iraq for example--he spoke against that in 2003 while I was still buying into the propaganda as popped out by Cheney, Rumsfeld and that idiot that served two terms while being elected only once.

My hero said the following: "There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."

I expect Ake split a gut when he heard that. He was right, imo, that time. Imo, he's wrong this time, but in the words of Paul Newman in the movie "Hombre", that's to find out.

Trust things are good, Ake.

BM


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 03:58 AM

Cuba under Fidel is a country that has sustained itself against all the odds for fifty years.
We may have more material posessions than the cuban people, but I;m sure they are healthier,better educated.....and happier...in the real sense of the word.

Fidel was no "liberal", he was as hard as iron when he needed to be, to fight off capitalist insurrection.....but I am quite sure there is not a better loved leader anywhere in the world.

He is an example of a model which can work any where if the leader is true to his people.....and most importantly at this time, a model which is sustainable in a world of shrinking resources.

We must all realise that the "good times" in capitalist terms are gone forever, despite what Teribus exhorts us to believe.


Just as a personal footnote, this winter has been a dark an gloomy time Chez Ake, with family health matters to deal with.
Brucie....your words were as a ray of sunlight through to dark, you have been a good friend, there are very few with a heart so kind.
Many thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 10:38 AM

Cubans "healthier, happier...."

Not the ones in prison for imagined crimes against the regime.

And if the Cuban people are in such great shape, it sure is a mystery why so many have been so desperate to leave this socialist paradise--and some have even drowned in trying to do so.


Nor, as i said--, returning to the topic--, are quite a few Libyans overjoyed with their regime--quite a few seem to be willing to die opposing it.   Another mystery, I suppose--at least to those with ideological blinders on tight.



But I do hope things improve at your house, Ake.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 10:51 AM

And one also should consider the question of how much personal wealth that Gadhafi has managed to wring out of his economy in the past decades, and how this correlates with anyone's model of a socialist society. I don't think Libya scores very high on that test.

For years I was delighted to read about Tanzania's experiment with "African Socialism." They've still managed to avoid civil wars and wars with their neighbors and there doesn't seem to be one family reaping the lion's share of the economy. But Tanzania's economy is still marginal by most measurements. Still, it's done better than many more richly endowed African nations.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 11:31 AM

"Cuba under Fidel is a country that has sustained itself against all the odds for fifty years."

Well for the most part subsidised to the hilt by the USSR whilst practicing that favoured old communist art commonly known throughout the free world as "State Oppression".

"Fidel was no "liberal", he was as hard as iron when he needed to be, to fight off capitalist insurrection.....but I am quite sure there is not a better loved leader anywhere in the world."

"better loved" you have got to be joking!! "better loved" indeed - in a pigs ear.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 12:52 PM

Getting back to Libya. Evidently the NATO air strikes that the Rebels have been calling for have resulted in another incident in which Rebel fighters were injured or killed (from Al Jazeera):

"A NATO air attack has hit a Libyan rebel position near the eastern oil town of Brega, killing at least five fighters, according to rebel fighters and a hospital worker.

Thursday's attack also left at least 10 others wounded, witnesses and correspondents of the AFP news agency said.

Medical workers carried uniforms soaked in blood from one of hospital rooms. And some rebel fighters were weeping on their knees in the corridor.

It was the second time in less than a week that rebels blamed NATO for bombing their comrades by mistake. Thirteen died in an air raid not far from the same spot on Saturday.

A Reuters news agency reporter saw bloodstained stretchers being brought out of the hospital in Ajdabiya, where those wounded in the attack were being treated.

Ajdabiya lies about 80km from Brega."

"We were standing by our tanks and NATO fired two rockets at us," said one, Salem Mislat. "NATO are liars. They are siding with Gaddafi."

Such incidents will unfortunately be unavoidable as Gadhafi troops position more of their tanks and other heavy firepower within civilian areas. The civil war will only get more brutal.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 04:01 PM

I didn't realise NATO was engaged in a "civil war"

I take it that it would be quite alright if we were slaughtering young men under the control of Col. Gadaffi?

What right do we have to support one side in a "civil war"?
How do we know how many inhabitants of Libya support the Col, or how many support the insurgents?
Why do we not tell the truth about our military actions, do these people think we are totally stupid?

Gadaffi's regime may be harsh, but he appears to provide for his people better than most other states in the area.

He is also no more of a terrorist than Western leaders.....as I said earlier we all practice terrorism.
The targeting of Col. Gadaffi's troops is terrorism, designed to make his supporters change sides and force him out of power.

The really sick part is that it is perpetrated by people who will never go anywhere near Libya....have no interest in Libya or its people.....who have only self interest at heart.

I find this whole episode almost identical to the destruction of Iraq.....how can we forget so quickly the final excuse for our involvement in the deaths of a million men women and children

"It's because Saddam/Gadaffi is a BAD MAN"......Idiots!


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