BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 08:02 PM

I wasn't saying it was "imperialism", pdq, I was just saying it happened in various places during the colonial era, that's all. Whether one should call it imperialism or not is a whole different discussion.

If I'd been running the UK at the time, I might have done the same thing, after all. Who knows? But I'm saying that the boundaries drawn for many of those countries in Africa and the Middle East after WWI were probably drawn without full awareness of what the cultural aftereffects would be for the local people. To say this is not to be insulting "the West", it is simply to state what happened.

Larger powers always end up determining the future of various indigenous populations in weaker areas...for better or for worse. If we're going to argue about whether or not to call it "imperialism", it would be well to remember that there was a time not too long ago when every great power was proud to speak of its "empire". "Empire" was not a dirty word then, it was a badge of pride. When I was born in 1948, the British Empire still spoke proudly of itself and celebrated the fact that "the sun never sets on the British Empire".

Now, tell me....how can an empire NOT be imperial???? ;-) All empires practice imperialism, pdq, because to have an empire at all necessitates the practice of imperialism....and people used to be proud of themselves for doing it! Read some Rudyard Kipling, and you'll see that right away, although he was not blind to the aspirations of the subject races. He just honestly felt they were better off under British rule....and he may even have been partly right about that! After all, the British were good administrators, weren't they? And they kept the different ethnic groups under their rule from slaughtering each other. Look what happened when they finally left...not exactly a lovely scene, was it?

Yet, I believe it was inevitable.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: pdq
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 08:13 PM

I agree with you on most of what you said in the last few post. Certainly there is no reason to argue at any lenght.

I say Iraq, Afhganistan and now Lybia constitute "wars" and with two unfinished ones, having cost the US taxpayers $1.12 trillion dollars in the the last 9 1/2 years, should have kept us from starting a new one.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 08:17 PM

I agree. But think how happy the arms industry must be.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: number 6
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 10:27 PM

"Quite agree bobad, the United States of America is currently at war with no-one - FACT"

ok ... it's not a war ... even though the FACT is military bombs have been dropped from planes and 158 cruise missiles have been fired at an enemy ... is it politically correct to call them an enemy if it isn't a war?

.
.

no, it's not a war ... it's what they use to call a 'police action' .. ;-]

good grief

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 11:02 PM

FDR went to Congress and got an official declaration of war on Japan after Pearl Harbour. He later got the same Congressional approval to go to war against Germany and Italy. And that was the last time an American administration went through the proper constitutional motions of going to war...which require certain governmental and legal formalities and the consent of Congress (which represents the people).

Presidents since FDR have found it much more convenient to have wars which are not declared....and that means that what they have really done is to act like kings who launch wars by decree, in effect, as a solitary commander-in-chief of the nation's armed forces. This may be convenient, but it is not constitutional...and it is the epitome of hypocrisy to claim that these bloody "police actions" are not wars. They are wars, with all the physical features that characterize a war.

The General Staff plans attacks and issues orders. Ships go to sea, aircraft take to the air, guns are fired, bombs are dropped, battles are fought on foreign land, and people die. That's a war. You can call it by any other name you want, you can say you were "asked to go in" by someone (and the Germans used to say that too...), but it's still a war, and the power to wage war is supposed to be given by Congress not by presidential will.

The reason the Constitution was set up that way was to prevent American presidents from becoming, like most European Kings, absolute rulers and dictators, because it is simply too dangerous to entrust the decision to go to war to one man. If you can't get it authorized by the elected Congress of the nation, it should not be allowed to go ahead at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 11:06 PM

"no, it's not a war ... it's what they use to call a 'police action'"


I recall a line from the TV show, MASH. I think it was Pierce who said, "If this is a police action, why didn't they send cops?"

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: number 6
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 11:08 PM

999 ... I remember that line from MASH ... good one ... :-)

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 11:10 PM

Hmmmm. Any reports from the front?

Benghazi does have the reputation of sending more volunteers to fight alongside the Taliban in Afghanistan than any other city in North Africa. One of their senior members Hakim Al Sady is part of the rebel governing council and would should assume that he would be deeply suspicious of the involvement of France, the UK, and the United States in the UN coalition but he might also be very grateful that they were able to chew up Gadhafi's armored column before it made mincemeat of Benghazi's rebellious residents.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 12:32 AM

What I've gathered from here and there:

Of the 22 towns/cities in north Libya, a few days back only three were held by the rebels. As of today, 10 were held by the rebels with three towns/cities being actively contested. People are expecting a humanitarian crisis as hospitals run short of supplies and people run short of food and water. NATO can't decide yet who's gonna take over command from the US. A naval blockade is being actively enforced.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 10:36 PM

"Ron has not replied".    So sorry i have a life outside Mudcat.   You might want to try it sometime, LH. (Yeah, I know you're kidding. Sure you are.)   But it sure is interesting that you seem to be on Mudcat all the time.   Must have a rather undemanding job--and no other demands on your time by others in the house.



The question is if I have time to address all the specious arguments on the thread.

The answer is:   just enough now for a few points.

"lynch mob". Right.   For a mass-murdering dictator.

Good thing Churchill did not have this attitude.    And it was in fact very much in evidence at the time. The SIS did not take kindly to the SOE, which Churchill established 16 July 1940.    The SOE field included "terrorist acts against traitors and German leaders." Killing Hitler p 195.



And it's certainly not necessary to announce the $10 million bounty for Gadhafi.   Just see to it that the word gets to Gadhafi's own mercenaries. That's the main goal.


That's it for now. Have fun. I know you will.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 10:49 PM

Ah yes.   And there are in fact striking similarities between Gadhafi and Hitler:   specifically the structure of governance and and attitude towards dissent.    Gadhafi doesn't need to push for Lebensraum, both because of the small population, but also because he can and does exert much pressure in the region through "soft power"---specifically oil money.

And of course as far as I know he doesn't base aggression on race theory.

But a mass-murdering dictator he is-- and a rich one. Even with $30 billion-plus frozen outside Libya, he still has at least $5 billion in gold in Libya. And now he has every incentive to try to acquire nuclear weapons.   We have to certainly make sure he never even has a shadow of a claim to the $30 billion.   Having him shuffle off this mortal coil early would solve the problem neatly.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 11:03 PM

Also, anybody who thinks a 38-year old LSE grad can smoothly slip into Gadhafi's many roles needs to read further.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 02:15 AM

"Frankly I'd like to see 'botg' in the Cote d'Ivoire, but is seems skin colour still matters in this world."

There are "botg" in the Ivory Coast - a UN Peacekeeping Force under French "command".

Not being very effective because they are severely constrained by UN rules relating to UN Peacekeeping Forces. Counter to popular misconceptions:

- UN Peacekeeping Forces do not "sort out situations"

- UN Peacekeeping Forces are limited as to what arms they can deploy, they have no tactical air cover, no artillery and no armour. In short they can just about defend themselves.

- UN Peacekeeping Forces do not in fact enforce a peace, they monitor it. The warring factions in any situation must have already stopped fighting before a UN Peacekeeping Force is deployed, i.e. there should already be a truce or ceasefire in place.

- Historically if that truce or ceasefire breaks down the UN Peacekeepers are withdrawn.

The US should stand aside from police actions if only to show its detractors what happens in bad situations where they do not intervene. Rest assured China and Russia will not intervene to save human life and protect civilians, they will wait for the dust to settle then go in and exploit the situation to their advantage. The French will intervene but will be extremely ineffective. When the USA and the UK act in concert things do happen, things do get done usually to the advantage of the people affected and in saying that I do include Iraq and Afghanistan. I believe that there are many people in countries such as Haiti, Somalia, Rwanda, Sudan (Darfur) and The Ivory Coast wish that the US and UK had got more involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 04:00 AM

OK..It is being reported, that we already have 'boots on the ground'.(Special Forces, 'painting the target').

Also, this action has little to do with Qaddafi, or his abuses on his people. These are the cover story, and excuse. It has more to do a power play to take down Israel and the western economic system. This action gives precedent to allow Israel to be invaded by the other middle eastern anti Israel countries, with the support of the U.N., including us, whether it would be justified, or not.

Whether you support that idea or not, is really up to you, though, as I poster previously, this is a huge mistake! Obama was ill advised, and America is in the process of selling out our relationship with Israel.

That's all, but at least you heard it here first(maybe), on the good ol' Mudcat Forum.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 04:48 AM

Mistake(typo) Third paragraph it should not be "poster" but 'posted'
Fix it, if you could, thank you.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 06:51 AM

When the USA and the UK act in concert things do happen, things do get done usually to the advantage of the people affected and in saying that I do include Iraq and Afghanistan.

I doubt whether the families of three quarters of a million dead Iraqi civilians would agree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 08:53 AM

So now that Obama has handed over leadership to NATO for implementing UN resolution 1973 on schedule, the Republicans now accuse him of lack of leadership. I guess in their minds, GWB's unilateral action on Iraq still rings true.

Of course US forces will still be involved within NATO and continuing to provide important functions. But now other countries, including Arab countries, are more willing to join in the effort.

Not a bad result for what a week ago looked like another bloodbath.

And so far reports of "collateral damage" seem relatively modest, even if all the claims by Gadhaffi's spokespeople turn out to be true.

GfS-

The media evidently has not picked up on the latest conspiracy theory posted by GfS. Where did this one come from or did you think it up yourself? Could you restate it? I'm not sure if you are being serious or sarcastic. I do hate to encourage you but I am genuinely puzzled.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 09:00 AM

GfS .... you got it. I can not help but beleive the door is now open to to justify military action against Israel (right or wrong). The resentment against Israel is growing at a fast pace in the western world. The fashion now is to blame Israel for all the issues happening in the mideast (sadly to say).

For those who speak of genocide well, we have not seen anything yet. If the door is opened to legally sanction the military intervention against Israel all hell will break lose ... we are going to see acts of violence of man against man that we have not seen in decades. I just hope the western world has the logistics and economics to perform a massive airlift. I also hope the western world has the humanity to take in to their countries the lucky ones who get out.

Hopefully I'm wrong with my predictions, but unfortunaly I can't see any hope with all that is going on.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 09:32 AM

"I doubt whether the families of three quarters of a million dead Iraqi civilians would agree with you."

What three quarters of a million dead Iraqi civilians?

According to those responsible for clearing up the bodies and burying the dead in Iraq the number stands at somewhere around the 150,000 mark, most of those (between 67% and 75%) killed by fellow Iraqi's who were members of insurgent groups, sectarian militias or criminal gangs, a fair number were also killed by foreign jihadi "fighters" who came to Iraq to fight and kill the invading foreign infidels. Unfortunately for these "brave freedom fighters for Islam" they discovered very early on that the evil invading foreign infidels tended to fight back rather successfully, so those "brave freedom fighters for Islam" went back to what they do best, i.e. killing defenceless unarmed civilians, not caring a toss whether they were muslim or not.

Daily average death toll related to civilians in Iraq has been reduced by a factor of 87% when compared to the daily averages batted by Saddam Hussein in his 24 year reign.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 10:04 AM

"This action (UN action in Libya I presume) gives precedent to allow Israel to be invaded by the other middle eastern anti Israel countries, with the support of the U.N., including us, whether it would be justified, or not."

What complete and utter tosh. In what way does this set a precedent that would allow military action to be taken against Israel? On what grounds? Military action by whom? Care to run through the likely candidates?

Lebanon:
Highly unlikely, Lebanon is just gearing itself up for the next chapter in it's own bloody civil war. If Hezbollah in Lebanon attempted anything against Israel they would be destroyed, along with much of southern Lebanon.

Syria:
Bashar al-Assad and the Ba'athist Party in Syria have got other things on their minds at the moment. Besides the Syrian Army or Air Force have never been a match for the IDF and they are fully aware of that. In 1973 Damascus was completely open to capture and all of Syria knew it - No Syria is not going to invade Israel.

Jordan:
The only Jordan that might invade Israel might be the British Z-list celebrity with the silicone boobs. King Abdullah II certainly isn't going to throw over the Peace deal with Israel signed by his Father because of any concern for "The Palestinians" (Pssst Remember it was his father King Hussain of Jordan that threw the bastards out of Jordan in 1970 after Yasser Arafat tried to take over his Kingdom)

Egypt:
They have just undergone a revolution of their own that their Army is at present quietly sitting on and watching very carefully. No they will not throw away the peace they signed with Israel.

That leaves who else??

Turkey:
Naw, not a hope, they are not that stupid

Iran:
Nope far too cowardly to fight anyone directly, they conduct all their dirty work by proxy, they prefer to pay others to die on their behalf.

"The resentment against Israel is growing at a fast pace in the western world. The fashion now is to blame Israel for all the issues happening in the mideast."

Hell as like, it may however be the fashion amongst the illiterate, the ignorant, the impressionable, the gullible and the easily led.

"For those who speak of genocide well, we have not seen anything yet. If the door is opened to legally sanction the military intervention against Israel all hell will break lose ... we are going to see acts of violence of man against man that we have not seen in decades."

No-one in their right minds in the middle-east, or anywhere else, is going to even propose military action against Israel let alone sanction it. The USA has a bilateral defence pact with Israel that is inviolate, anyone proposing military action against Israel in the UN Security Council will come up against a US Veto.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 10:21 AM

Interesting that a Libyan owned oil company is demanding the return of British oil workers to start up it's oilfields - if they don't go, their contracts will be terminated. The person I spoke to will be telling them to get stuffed!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 11:16 AM

"The resentment against Israel is growing at a fast pace in the western world. The fashion now is to blame Israel for all the issues happening in the mideast."

Hell as like, it may however be the fashion amongst the illiterate, the ignorant, the impressionable, the gullible and the easily led.

Well, it's hard to see how Israel could take the rap for recent events in Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, etc., but it's impossible to deny that the Palestinian/Israeli conflict is at the root of nearly all the unrest in the region before that. In turn, by far the biggest factor helping to perpetuate that conflict is the unconditional bankrolling of Israel's military by the US. Without that, we would not have Hezbollah or Hamas. You condemn Iran (a country that has never invaded another) for being cowardly in getting others to do its dirty work, whilst there's not a word from you about the egregious manner in which the US is doing exactly that by providing for Israel's massive army, and on a scale many times greater. I'm not one of those who would wish Israel to be wiped off the map, neither do I think that the west shouldn't have friendly relations with Israel. But I do think that military aid should be conditional on responsible and legal military behaviour, and I think there should be far less of that aid. If you're giving enough aid to enable a country to attack its neighbours willy-nilly and illegally occupy or besiege Palestinian land, not simply give it the wherewithal to defend itself, you are overdoing it in my book. I don't think for one second that there are significant threats looming on Israel's borders because of recent events. But the biggest threat to Israel is going to come from Israel itself, and that may well happen in the not too distant future when they attack Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 12:06 PM

"If you're giving enough aid to enable a country to attack its neighbours willy-nilly and illegally occupy or besiege Palestinian land, not simply give it the wherewithal to defend itself, you are overdoing it in my book."

Which countries, what neighbours has Israel attacked "willy-nilly"?

1948: Israel itself was attacked inside the borders of the Territory that was then known as Palestine. The Jews of Palestine had accepted the UN's Plan proposed in 1947 and the Arabs of Palestine had rejected it, so when Israel declared itself an independent state the Arabs of Palestine assisted by the Arabs of Jordan, Syria and Egypt invaded the mandated Palestine Territory.

- The Israeli's fought to protect their borders,
- The Jordanians grabbed the West Bank and East Jerusalem and occupied them until 1967
- The Egyptians grabbed the Gaza Strip and occupied them until 1967

How is your argument about taking land from others by force of arms holding up?

1949 - 1956: Raids and attacks on Israel from Syria, Jordan and Egypt

1956: Nasser nationalises the Suez canal closing it to Israeli shipping. Under the terms of the UN Charter it is an Act of War to close or restrict an international water-way, which the Suez canal most definitely is. The UK and france retake the canal and Israel clears the Egyptians from Sinai. UN place a Peacekeeping Force in Sinai to prevent further Fedayeen attacks on Israel from Egypt.

1957 - 1967: Attacks on Israel continue and the rhetoric is ramped up several notches. Egypt orders the UN Peacekeeping Force out of Sinai and the Arab world parks five armies on the borders of Israel vowing to drive the Jews into the sea. Egypt closes the Suez Canal and the Gulf of Aqaba to Israeli shipping.

1967: The Six Day War which Israel wins convincingly. Jordanians are booted out of the land they themselves illegally took and held by force in 1948 and the Egyptians are once again cleared out of Gaza and the Sinai. The Syrians lose the Golan Heights from where they had been shelling Israel for years. Two times now Israel and her Arab neighbours had signed UN brokered cease-fire agreements and on neither occasion had the Arabs lived up to their end of the bargain, so this time there was no automatic return to the ante-bellum borders, this time Israel was clear - Land For Formal Peace Treaties.

1973: The Yom Kippur War where Egypt and Syria carry-out an unprovoked attack on Israel to recapture land they had lost. Again Israel defeats her attackers convincingly.

1979: Egypt/Israeli Peace Treaty

1986: Israel having intervened in the Lebanese Civil War to stop PLO attacks on Northern Israel establishes a "buffer zone" in southern Lebanon, which it voluntarily withdraws from in 2000

1987: Palestinian Arabs declare the First Intifada

1994: Jordan/Israeli Peace Treaty

2000: Camp David Peace Proposals rejected by Arafat and the Second Intifada is declared by Arafat.

2005: Israel unilaterally withdraws from the Gaza Strip

2006: Attacks on Israel from South Lebanon and from the Gaza Strip

2008: Turkey acts a mediator in secret peace talks between Syria and israel

2008: Israel attacks Gaza (Between 2001 and 2008 8,600 rockets had been fired indiscriminately at Israel civilian centres of population).

There is no such country as "Palestine" - there never was. "Palestine" is a construct of Yasser Arafat, the greatest gangster and opportunist that the Arabs of palestine have ever had to suffer under (and by Christ his uncle took some beating, but good ol' Yasser managed it).

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 12:24 PM

Please, if we're going bring up Israel .... let's don't bring up the history of Israel and it's past conflicts. I should have kept my mouth shut .... anyway, if we are going to brigng up Israel let's stay focused on the current concerns and how the events going on in the Arab countries, and world opinion will put Israel in a precarious position.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 12:32 PM

Steve: "You condemn Iran (a country that has never invaded another) for being cowardly in getting others to do its dirty work, whilst there's not a word from you about the egregious manner in which the US is doing exactly that by providing for Israel's massive army, and on a scale many times greater."

Steve, I'm glad to see a more serious post from you...that being said, Iran and the Iraqi war, in which killed over a million people, would seem to contradict some of you post. This was mostly a 'religious based conflict, (at least that's what was reported), but Iran did invade Iraq. Out of it, the U.S. supported Iraq, and it was not until the hostage taking in Iran, that we supplied Iraq, with arms (missiles), to secure their release. The cover story at that time was the swearing in of Ronald Reagan. If anyone can remember, that during the swearing in, the crawler beneath the video coverage, ran the hostage release story..but it had NOTHING to do with him being sworn in, but an arms deal in which Iraq threatened to, in effect, blackmail the U.S. based on their piecing together a lot of documents, both shredded, and not, that they had, when they took over the embassy. There are more details to in, but this should suffice to say, what took place, in an overview. By the way, the present leader of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, was one of the organizers, and participants of the hostage takers...and just like the U.S. does support military efforts, to fight its proxy wars behind the scenes.
But, really Steve, it was good to see you post a 'less than sarcastic' post.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 01:11 PM

Charley Noble: The media evidently has not picked up on the latest conspiracy theory posted by GfS. Where did this one come from or did you think it up yourself? Could you restate it? I'm not sure if you are being serious or sarcastic. I do hate to encourage you but I am genuinely puzzled."

Actually I got it off the media...and when I get more time, when I get back from town, tonight, I'll give you more info about it, unless someone else picks up on it, and fills you in.
I know, I was blown away, when I heard the 'ins and outs' of the details!..but when I heard it, it made complete sense..you know, like those things you hear, that says, "Yeah, that's it!"
Gotta go...last post I can do now...I'm late!

Regards,

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 01:39 PM

I got into a slagging match with Steve a while back. We then traded a few messages and guess what? He's really a nice guy. Although I disagree with him about how we're handling Libya, I remembered that I once supported the invasion of Iraq based on the necessity for it as promulgated by those bastards in the White House and their friends in the media. I may have done so again regarding Libya, but maybe not.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 02:14 PM

Some nice misrepresentations there, Teribus. To take but one example, no mention of the atrocities committed in southern Lebanon in 2006 such as leaving tens of thousands of (American) cluster bomblets all over the countryside to blow children's legs off for years to come. You could also have referred to the illegal use of white phosphorus in Gaza and the deliberate targeting of civilians, not to speak of the brutal and pointless siege of Gaza. However, as has been said, 'tain't an Israel thread. My point was that we should not be supplying arms to countries who use them irresponsibly. And that the Palestinian/Israeli conflict was, until recent months, at the root of all middle east conflict for many decades.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 02:33 PM

In which case then Mr.Shaw answer my question:

"What countries has Israel attacked willy-nilly?"

Lebanon provocation entering od Israel by Hezbollah to kidnap two Israel soldiers followed by rocket attacks.

Israeli attacks on Gaza? 8,600 rocket attacks in the course of 8 years?? How would you respond?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 02:41 PM

I fail to see what the Israelis have to do with this thread--no offense to anyone. The pro-con Israeli positions are clear for damned near everyone who's ever posted on a thread to do with the mid-East.

Hell, I could go back to older threads and c and p what most posters think--including myself--and I'd bet a buffalo head nickel that you'd not recognize the difference from an old post and one from today. imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 02:59 PM

Agreed. We'll let the fact that Teribus wears a blinker over one eye rest for now. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 03:15 PM

Well, Steve, considering our stormy start, I have come to see you as very reasonable--not as reasonable as me of course, but close. Teribus and I go way back, and he is one tough sonuvagun, and the kind of guy I hope to have in my corner when the s##t hits the fan. I don't know either of you in real life, but I'd bet another buffalo head nickel that you two would get along. imo, and let's don't you guys mess up my hopes and wishes.   ;-)

EUREKA, I just got it. The semicolon then dash then end parenthesis actually constitute a wink. (Please don't ask what I'm doing posting from the floor on my side.) :)

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 03:30 PM

Iran did invade Iraq.

Check your facts.

The war was initiated by Iraq launching an air and land invasion of Iraq, without any warning, ultimatum or declaration of war. After this attack was repulsed Iranian forces counterattacked and occupied Iraqi territory until the end of the war (which ended soon after the US shot down a civilian Iranian airliner, which was taken by the Iranians as an indication that the USA was at the point of moving in in support of Saddam Hussein's Iraqi regime). After the war Iran withdrew to the prewar boundaries.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 06:06 PM

Still no-one has stated how or why what is currently happening in Libya creates a precedent that would allow attacks on Israel - That 999 is where Israel comes into the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: pdq
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 07:39 PM

I have never heard anyone seriously suggest that the US shot down the Iranian Air Bus as a warning to the Iranians.

That is outrageous and should be taken back pronto.

The Air Bus was flying toward a US military vessel with a full crew, and the captain was obligated to protect his men.

The Iranian aircraft was spotted on radar, not by sight. It was warned repetedly to turn away, but it's radios were tuned to civilian bands, not military radio frequencies and did not respond. The US captain never recovered completely from the shock of what happened. To say this act was intentional is an outrage.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 07:53 PM

Hmmmmm???

Unless I am missing something everything that is happening in Northern Africa and the Middle East has nothing to to with Isreal...

...but everything to do with way too much income inequality and lack of opportunities for a young, educated generation...

You know, kinda more like the US... In come inequality and lack of opportunity...

Israel get a pass on this tho...

... it might provide an excellent opportunity for some progress on Isreal's Palestinian situation if the hard-liners can look at what is happening and see for themselves that everyone would be better off if they resolved their differences... I mean, the Palestinian situation is not unlike other countries in the area with a major lack of opportunity for its people... That's what this is all about after all... It's not about dictators... It's about one's ability to use his or her intellect and education to make a danged living... Nothing less and nothing more...

The first thing all these dictators do is offer $$$... Screw $$$... Offer jobs!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: number 6
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 08:04 PM

"Still no-one has stated how or why what is currently happening in Libya creates a precedent that would allow attacks on Israel"

The Gadhafi Precedent Israeli Unity Coalition


The Gadhafi precedent Washington Times


This is why I brought Israel inot this thread. It concerns me.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: number 6
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 08:14 PM

btw .... these 2 links are the same editorial by Frank J. Gaffney Jr. .... but from 2 different sources ... I don't think it is some wacky conspiracy theory, but provides some valid food for thought.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 10:07 PM

Sigh, another thread totally derailed.

Now I know that GfS is in an orbit all her own but I've totally missed out on why Israel is the next state to be abandoned in the US plan to dominate the world. And it's all supposed to make sense.

The Obama Administration has ben mildly critical of some recent actions taken by Israel, as well as actions taking by some factions of the Palestinians. But I'm not getting a hint that the US would dare to abandon our loyal ally Israel in favor of any of its neighbors, even if they had a BIG pool of oil. Is this Haliburton's master plan?

Let's get back to keeping score of what's going on and about in Libya. Is it true that 90% of the Rebel leadership is on the payroll of Osama Ben-Laden? Actually I just made that up but feel free to respond ardently.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: number 6
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 10:40 PM

I'm not trying to hijack this thread and I'm certainly not trying to revive the old pro-con Israel position argument (far from it) ... what I'm trying to get across is the 'Gadhafi precedent' which the UN sanctioned the no fly zone plus used on Libya could be used against Israel ... which in itself could be used as an argument against this whole bombing thing which is the title of the thread. I'm not stating that the U.S. wants to dominate the mideast and I'm not stating the Israelis's deserve to get their ass whipped like Gadhafi. I'm just stating some facts that I feel can make the mideast even more unstable than it already is as a result of the 'Bombing of Tripoli has begun'

I also am aware that Frank J. Gaffney Jr is somewhat of a right wing advocate which I certainly do not agree with, but regardless what he has to say concerning the 'Gadhafi precedent' pretty well sums up some of my concerns.

and as I stated before only time will tell, and I do hope for the best for all the people of the mid-east and n. Africa, Muslims and Jews alike.

and with that being said for all it's worth I further add my adieu to this thread.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 04:32 AM

Gaffney is way of mark in describing his scenario

1: There is no state of palestine, there never has been.

2: For UN to pay any attention to anything any Palestinian delegation might say that Palestinian delegation would have to state very clearly and very forcefully that it recognises Israel's borders, sovereignty and right to exist free from any threat of attack. It should be remembered that the UN was the first body to recognise the state of Israel followed by the Governments of the USA and the USSR. Hamas will never accept that and that is why the international community refuse to recognise Hamas as the Government of anybody.

3: For Gaffney's scenario to unfold the United States of America has got to renege on it's long standing bi-lateral defence treaty with Israel, which up until the liberation of Iraq was the only functioning democracy in the region - The United States of America will not do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 04:52 AM

As far as applying the Gaddafi Precedent goes, there would be a stronger case for action against Hamas in Gaza than against Israel.

The Arab League demanding military action?? They might demand it all they want, they, and the world and its dog, know they won't do anything about it - 1948; 1956; 1967; 1973; 2006; 2008 - They know if they act against Israel they will be defeated, hopefully this time the Israeli's will finish the job once and for all, both sides in this mess have had over 60 years to reach an agreement and every time the Arabs have snatched defeat from the jaws of victory in order to continue "their struggle".

"After this attack was repulsed Iranian forces counterattacked and occupied Iraqi territory until the end of the war (which ended soon after the US shot down a civilian Iranian airliner, which was taken by the Iranians as an indication that the USA was at the point of moving in in support of Saddam Hussein's Iraqi regime)."

Utter bullshit Kevin. The Aegis weapons control system on the USS Vincennes is extremely fast and cannot be overidden once it perceives a threat. The British DLG HMS Hampshire nearly shot down a civilian cargo 707 in the Malacca Straits during the Indonesian Confrontation under similar circumstances, but the Commanding Officer (who in those days was the ONLY person who could give the order to "engage") took a very courageous decision to wait until one of two things happened:

1: The aircraft turned away sharply and the radar echo split in two with one continuing on towards the ship indicating that the aircraft had launched one or more stand-off weapons (Kelt missiles) - in this case Hampshires weapons systems shoot down the missiles

2: The Rating manning the MRS-3 Director gets a visual on the aircraft and positively identifies it.

What happened was the latter. In accordance with the "Rules of Engagement" in force at the time the Captain of HMS Hampshire would have been fully justified in taking on that aircraft and shooting it down - just as the Captain of the USS Vincennes was.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 01:42 PM

Well, evidently we can begin posting Rebel victories again:

From Al Jazeera:

"Libyan rebels are advancing westwards after recapturing the strategic eastern town of Ajdabiya from government controls with the help of coalition airstrikes.

Reports on Saturday afternoon suggested rebels had already pressed onto the oil-port town of Brega, 80 kilometres to the west.

'We are in the centre of Brega,' rebel fighter Abdelsalam al-Maadani told the AFP news agency by telephone."

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 03:57 PM

Why are we not protecting the "civilians" of Brega and Tripoli from the rebels?
Do they only carry "pop" guns?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 05:56 PM

2: For UN to pay any attention to anything any Palestinian delegation might say that Palestinian delegation would have to state very clearly and very forcefully that it recognises Israel's borders, sovereignty and right to exist free from any threat of attack. It should be remembered that the UN was the first body to recognise the state of Israel followed by the Governments of the USA and the USSR. Hamas will never accept that and that is why the international community refuse to recognise Hamas as the Government of anybody.

Well gosh, it's clear whose side you're on. You want the UN to pay attention to the Palestinians only when the latter promise to recognise Israel's borders. That's a laugh, innit, considering that Israel has been in breach of UN resolutions regarding borders for almost half a century. In addition, you want Israel, uniquely on this planet, to be free from any threat of attack. You fail to spell out what Israel itself might have to do to expedite this, as though it would just be a matter of everyone else in the region just lying down and letting Israel get on with whatever they want to get on with. I'll remind you that, inconveniently for you and your fellow-traveller Israel apologists, Hamas was elected in free and fair elections, and I would also remind you that if you ever want to get people to change you have to sit down with them and negotiate, not demonise them in the way you have done in this post. Even Ian Paisley will tell you that. Since when has it been OK to collectively punish a million and a half people, as in Gaza, because they voted the way you didn't want them to? You know damn well that there has to be no such thing as "never" in politics, and that, one fine day, someone will sit down with Hamas and negotiate, and that Hamas will find accommodation with Israel. There are factions within Hamas who already acknowledge that that must happen one day. Anyone, like you, who persists in confusing silly megaphone rhetoric with hard reality has simply not learned the lessons of history. Your timeline account of the recent history of this conflict, apart form being exceptionally partial in its detail as I've already indicated, also completely omits any mention of the perfectly justified grievances of the Palestinians before and during the birth of Israel. I could also add that you neglect to mention the utterly disproportionate responses of Israel to attacks (which I condemn, actually, believe it or not). In ten years, around a dozen Israelis have been killed by Hamas rockets, whilst at the same time around twenty children per year are killed either by Israeli snipers or, worse, remote-controlled firearms, for the sin of playing within 300 metres of the Gaza border. Cast Lead killed 1300 Gazan civilians, including 300 children. In the same operation, Israeli casualties numbered just thirteen soldiers. Hundreds of Palestinians are currently incarcerated in Israeli jails without charge and without knowing why they are there. Almost 300 Palestinian children are in custody in Israel. The building of illegal settlements continues apace. A Palestinian approaching an Israeli roadblock will typically wait for two days to get through (for Israeli Jews it's instantaneous, of course). Whole families have been divided, and farmland stolen, by the construction of that apartheid wall. Israeli attacks on Gaza destroyed schools, hospitals, power stations and water works, and now building materials are not allowed in to allow reconstruction.

I think that you, and other apologists for Israel's atrocities, had better address each and every one of these points, one by one, before coming out with further "justifications" predicated mainly on apparent serious memory lapses. If you have any interest at all in being fair, that is. I probably shouldn't be holding my breath, should I.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 06:53 PM

The Israeli/Palestinian land split--tough shit. The Israelis (read Jews) bought the land. When they offered to teach the Palestinians how to use the land to produce (the Sinai), the offer was refused. The people who suffer on behalf of Palestinians are never there. They post their diatribe here.

I face death, as do we all, and had I a choice I would meet my maker at places like Little Big Horn (I'da been Sioux), Thermopylae, Dieppe, Juno Beach, Andersonville, Dien Bien Phu, hoping I could die with people of courage. You folks with lotsa cash need to hang onto it. Those of us with little or none--well, we just don't see it the same way you do.

I respect your right to think of us as shit, but I will respect my right to say you are an ass. My grandfather fought your fucking war, dug your coal, helped feed your children--in fact, helped feed you. Fuck your attitude and your disdain. On the worst day of his life he was better than you.

My real name is Bruce Murdoch. I live in Ormstown, Quebec. If you ever wish to talk in person, I'm easy to find. Until then, piss off.

Best personal regards,

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 07:15 PM

Like I said, all that is going on offers both the Palestinians and the Israelis the "political cover" to make progress toward the safety of both...

This has gone on long enough for both sides...

Time to get on toward a peaceful and mutually respectful resolution...

Gotta strike while the iron is hot and it may not be this hot ever again...

Just MO...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 07:42 PM

Perhaps Bruce, in a moment of greater clarity, will try to focus and articulate his feelings a little more accurately than that. Frankly, I didn't understand a bloody word of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 08:17 PM

Look, gang, just take your continuing "discussion" of Israel/Palestine to another thread. I might even contribute if folks are not too abusive.

Sure, a lot of issues in the Middle East are connected but this thread was an attempt to focus on what was happening in Libya. Please respect that.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 08:28 PM

C'mon, Charley, thread drift is a time-honoured and honourable pursuit. Nearly every serious thread I ever post gets hijacked. Big deal. You can hardly expect intemperate rants of the sort Teribus posted to go unchallenged.