Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafemuddy

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk

RunrigFan 29 Mar 11 - 08:29 PM
Joe Offer 29 Mar 11 - 08:45 PM
RunrigFan 29 Mar 11 - 08:49 PM
Jack Campin 29 Mar 11 - 09:21 PM
RunrigFan 29 Mar 11 - 09:35 PM
RunrigFan 29 Mar 11 - 09:36 PM
IvanB 29 Mar 11 - 11:31 PM
RunrigFan 30 Mar 11 - 02:23 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 30 Mar 11 - 04:02 AM
RunrigFan 30 Mar 11 - 04:31 AM
Jack Campin 30 Mar 11 - 10:51 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 30 Mar 11 - 11:15 AM
GUEST,leeneia 30 Mar 11 - 12:56 PM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 30 Mar 11 - 01:12 PM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 30 Mar 11 - 01:46 PM
GUEST,leeneia 30 Mar 11 - 03:20 PM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 30 Mar 11 - 03:40 PM
GUEST,leeneia 31 Mar 11 - 12:01 PM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 31 Mar 11 - 01:28 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 31 Mar 11 - 02:01 PM
GUEST,Jack Campin 31 Mar 11 - 02:42 PM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 31 Mar 11 - 02:54 PM
Tootler 31 Mar 11 - 03:04 PM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 31 Mar 11 - 03:46 PM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 31 Mar 11 - 03:47 PM
RunrigFan 31 Mar 11 - 04:09 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 31 Mar 11 - 04:20 PM
RunrigFan 31 Mar 11 - 04:27 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 31 Mar 11 - 04:29 PM
RunrigFan 31 Mar 11 - 04:44 PM
GUEST,leeneia 31 Mar 11 - 06:18 PM
RunrigFan 31 Mar 11 - 06:24 PM
Wilfried Schaum 01 Apr 11 - 02:39 AM
Wilfried Schaum 01 Apr 11 - 07:36 AM
Tootler 01 Apr 11 - 06:56 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 01 Apr 11 - 07:47 PM
RunrigFan 01 Apr 11 - 07:54 PM
RunrigFan 01 Apr 11 - 07:56 PM
Jack Campin 01 Apr 11 - 08:08 PM
RunrigFan 01 Apr 11 - 08:23 PM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 02 Apr 11 - 04:55 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 02 Apr 11 - 05:05 AM
Tootler 02 Apr 11 - 06:33 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 02 Apr 11 - 07:38 AM
RunrigFan 02 Apr 11 - 05:30 PM
Jack Campin 02 Apr 11 - 06:02 PM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 03 Apr 11 - 05:50 AM
Tootler 03 Apr 11 - 11:15 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 03 Apr 11 - 11:43 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Apr 11 - 01:08 PM
RunrigFan 04 Apr 11 - 12:39 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 04 Apr 11 - 04:36 AM
GUEST,Tim 04 Apr 11 - 06:02 AM
Jack Campin 04 Apr 11 - 06:31 AM
RunrigFan 04 Apr 11 - 07:12 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 04 Apr 11 - 07:28 AM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:



Subject: Tech: Wont let me add a tune req
From: RunrigFan
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 08:29 PM

is there any bugs in the system?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Wont let me add a tune req
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 08:45 PM

Hmmm. That's a strange one. If you can create this thread, you certainly shouldn't have any trouble creating a tune request thread. Post your request in this thread, and I'll change the title.

-Joe-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Wont let me add a tune req
From: RunrigFan
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 08:49 PM

Yeah when I try; I press save and I find it :)

Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk

This is a medieval tune from I believe the 13th century used by Corvus Corax

Corax, Loreena Mckennitt, among others ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIXV2NhLb_0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcmpBCXOgVI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?

v=UfYovzYN8ZU&feature=related


I think it inspired the dance at the beginning of the 3rd link


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 09:21 PM

It's in Timothy McGee's book "Medieval Instrumental Dances".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: RunrigFan
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 09:35 PM

link 3 should be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfYovzYN8ZU&feature=related


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: RunrigFan
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 09:36 PM

Cheer's I knew this from Corvus Corax, not sure if the same instrumental influenced Braveheart for that dance on link 3 ;)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: IvanB
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 11:31 PM

Although I suspect Jack Campin is correct in giving a source for the saltarello in question, the saltarello is, strictly speaking, a medieval dance form and, as such, would not be restricted to one tune. There are many tunes named "saltarello" just as there are many named "galliard," "pavane," "minuet," etc.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: RunrigFan
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 02:23 AM

True ;)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 04:02 AM

Here's David Munrow upping the Salterello stakes back in 1976, the same year he topped himself...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKxdCSbAtOE


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: Wee doch and doris
From: RunrigFan
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 04:31 AM

On that basis ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7M4RnIsCFdw

Saltarello - Ductia ;)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRroHryjM_Q

From congretatio ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEClpQqWlXo

from live 1998, crap video but nice song ;)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 10:51 AM

There are four saltarellos in McGee's book - the one Munrow was playing is the second.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 11:15 AM

Same one as Corvus Corax do in one of those videos, though their approach is a bit Celtic Womanish for my tastes! Good fun though...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 12:56 PM

Now I'm thoroughly confused.

I went to 3 of Runrig's links, and each one caused my screen to flash white rectangles. I desisted.

I did go to this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfYovzYN8ZU&feature=related

and it plays music from Braveheart 'composed by James Horner.' Since it says that, that Saltarello is going to be modern copyrighted music which is being guarded by the dragons of BMI, ASCAP or similar.

Runrig, let me ask you something.



1. Can you use MIDI files? Do you read sticks and dots?

   2. All saltarellos are pretty much alike. Does it really matter which one you find?

Because the Kunst der Fuge site has four of them. And there are possibly more to find if you google 'saltarello MIDI.' (I would expect the total number of actual, medieval saltarellos to be rather small. Not much medieval dance music has survived.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 01:12 PM

I think the HTML was a bit wonky. Here's RunrigFan's first link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIXV2NhLb_0

Which is to Corvus Corax showboating the tune generally referred to as Salterello #2 (out of 3 from British Museum MS #29987 c. 1390) irrespective of the dance, which we don't know too much about. I must confess, I didn't get very far with this, so my apologies if they include the others!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 01:46 PM

Sorry - out of 4 from British Museum MS #29987 c. 1390!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 03:20 PM

Thanks, I've heard that Saltarello before. It must be pretty famous.

Looks to me like Corvus Corax has seen one too many Japanese drum troupes.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 03:40 PM

They remind me of Klingons...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 12:01 PM

They have several pipers out, but it seems to me only one is playing.

But I can't watch long; I can't tolerate those flashing lights.

Meanwhile, Runrig, did you see my post above about the site with the 4 saltarellos in MIDI form?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 01:28 PM

For what it's worth British Museum MS #29987 c. 1390 is the source for many a classic medieval dance tune, the 4 Saltarellos notwithstanding. Here we find the 8 classic (possibly) programmatical instanpittas (Tre Fontane, Ghaetta, Bellicha, Parlamento, Principio di virtu, In Pro, Isabella and Chominciamento di gioia) as well as Lamento di Tristano, La Manfredina (and their respective Rottas) as well as Trotto.

Anyone here play them? Some of the Medieval types do them as session tunes - the faster the better!

Ensemble Oni Wytars - Tre Fontane


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 02:01 PM

The saltarello, originally an Italian folk(?) dance, a relative of the gailliard, became a court dance in Italy, France and Spain. The gailliard replaced the saltarello in popularity in the 1500s. The form continued in popularity among composers; Mozart, Gounod, Bach and others used the form in their compositions.

The music of Corvus Corax seemed reconstituted to me. No idea as to where they got their tunes or their authenticity.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 02:42 PM

They got the tune from the same MS everybody else got it from.

They're to mediaeval music what the Red Hot Chili Pipers are to Scottish trad. Except their pipers aren't quite as good and their drummers are better (the RHCPs use deadly dull rock drumming, CC's is a bit more appropriate).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 02:54 PM

I reckon that sums it up although I might take it a stage further - the tune comes from the original MS which is then studied by Early Music Academics and Professionals who go on the make performance editions and recordings which people like Corvus Corax pick up on their travels and arrange it to suit. No harm in this of course - it's a time honoured tradition.

Authentic? Well, I'd sat they're as authentic as anyone playing 14th century music in the 21st century - it's the lightshows & Klingon showboating I'm not so sure about. Check that ealier clip of David Munrow giving it laldie back in 1976 on a Chinese Shawm (about £3 from Ray Man back then though these days you'd be paying more for the reeds!). And another clip of the venerable Oni Wytars giving Istampitta Isbella a rare old dressing down on a very modern looking nykelharpa (played by Marco Ambrosini).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fICHPEAguJQ

Please let Authenticity be the reserve of Model Railway enthusiasts who would at least recognise a real train should ever they see one. Munrow, Oni Wytars, Corvus Corax - bless 'em all I say!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: Tootler
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 03:04 PM

Austrian early music group Ensemble Unicorn made a CD containing all the pieces from the British Museum MS mentioned above.

Like many of the groups that play this music they seem to follow the "faster the better" philosophy. Very virtuosic but wearing after a while. I think it would be better if they were to take it a little slower. That said it is an excellent CD. Here is a clip of them playing part of Chominciamento di gioia: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntb6gu6K7Is

Here is my attempt at Lamento di Tristano/La Rotta


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 03:46 PM

Not sure what the exact difference between Ensemble Unicorn and Oni Wyats is, but both feature the playing of Marco Ambrosini who you can check out on the above links. Like any other Oni Wyats / Ensemble Unicorn album, Chominciamento di gioia is certainly worth a listen (and it's on Naxos too, so nice and cheap - one of our Xmas favourites is the Unicorn / Oni Wytars album On the Way to Bethlehem album) and I can't think of any other disk that features all the pieces from the MS the way that one does, though it seems the obvious thing to do...

Used to love drumming with Misericordia on some of this stuff - you can hear the results on their Robins M'Aime CD, recorded in a Northumbrian farm studio with the blizzarding hale shivering the newly sprung daffodils outside the window as we were recording Tre Fontane. Happy days!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 03:47 PM

Do'h! Oni Wytars! Oni Wytars! Oni Wytars!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: RunrigFan
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 04:09 PM

Sorry if I got too many versions ;)

Their bagpipes are handmade; and there are a few bagpipers once of my fave bands on par with Clannad, Capercaillie, Clannad and Runrig plus my other fave bands ;)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 04:20 PM

All I got from the youtube Cervix was a lot of boom-BOOM!
On the other hand, the music played by Ensemble Unicorn was recognizable as a saltarello. Good musicians!
A little fast? Dunno. I warn't there at the time.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: RunrigFan
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 04:27 PM

They have to be different; the same thing Runrig is boom boom, or Capercaillie, or Clannad; or even Altan?

It's like In Extremo, is it a crime to do things different?

If artists like Tannas, Mary Jane Lamond, Martyn Bennett, Paul Mounsey make gaelic music relevent to new fans why cant Corvus Corax do same for Latin/French/German?

I think some people cant cope with change; wouldn't it be boring if everyone done the same style and I feel it would be monotonous because they wouldn't had the same same style everytime.

Bands like Runrig, Clannad, Capercaillie, would not get their success if they didn'nt make their music upbeat or loud

Same for Tannas, Paul Mounsey, Julie Fowlis, Kathleen Macinnes


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 04:29 PM

Tootler, couldn't figure out how to play your track. Clicked on several things but no response.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: RunrigFan
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 04:44 PM

Works fine for me ;)

Click the orange button :)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 06:18 PM

My Mudcat page now has a message that says "Internet Explorer has modified this page to help prevent cross-site scripting."

Whatever that means.

Farewell.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: RunrigFan
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 06:24 PM

I use Firefox ;)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 02:39 AM

In the 1500s, a dance mostly consisted of two parts: Pavane and Saltarello.
Pavane, its name derived from ital. pavone = peacock, is in 4/4 and performed in a dignified strut. In the Saltarello the theme is repeated in a 3/4 variation. Its name speaks for itself: from ital. saltare = to jump.
In German tabulatures for the lute it is often translated "der hupf auff" = the hop up.
So to identify a pavane or saltarello you have to know the name of the tune. as in my favourite piece: "The Queens Dance", by the famous composer Newsidler. (It also helps to know the composer's name.)
N.B. Saltarello also may occur as "a Roman folkdance" [i.e. in the city of Rome] according to my dictionary.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 07:36 AM

Oh endless joy! Thanks for the wonderful links given to renaissance music in this thread!

Nearly in tears
W.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: Tootler
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 06:56 PM

Not sure what the exact difference between Ensemble Unicorn and Oni Wyats is

A lot of early music groups have overlapping membership - Like folk music, it it a niche music and there are limited numbers of performers.

A little fast? Dunno. I warn't there at the time.

Of course, it's true that we don't really know exactly how this music was played and never will so all we can do is both be guided by what music scholars have been able to deduce and then use our musical judgment and play what sounds right to us. One thing I am sure of, and that is that modern musicians won't have had a monopoly on playing very fast.

My real point was that, while the musicians on the album were excellent and I enjoyed the music, they did tend to play everything very fast and it becomes wearing on the ears after a time. More variation in tempo would have helped for listening. Of course, if you are playing for dancing then a consistent tempo is required. Even with the best efforts of scholars no one really knows just how fast or slow the dances were. I suspect not as fast as Ensemble Unicorn play these pieces - Nevertheless, a Salterello is thought to have been a lively dance.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 07:47 PM

Yes, clicked the orange button0 a few notes, then dead stop,and repeated. Gave up.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: RunrigFan
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 07:54 PM

It be your internet as mine worked


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: RunrigFan
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 07:56 PM

I get what you mean tootler; but not all Corvus Corax pieces are jumpy ;)

Especially Veris Dulcis, Ah Amour is uptemo some is jumping, some is mellow ;)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 08:08 PM

Tootler's sound file worked better for me after letting it load all the way and then replaying it. My machine is not very fast and my ADSL connection isn't great, so that works for anything that might get cached, like YouTube.

I'd never play the Rotta that slowly.

Might have a go myself on my Praetorius alto to compare.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: RunrigFan
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 08:23 PM

Glad it caused some debate; whather Corvus Corax did it really fast or not is not the answer; it's about different artist doing something different to bring it to new people, ;) It;s like waulking songs; some artists like Tannas, Mary Jane Lamond, Kathleen Macinnes, Julie Fowlis bring something new just like Corvus Corax, Qantal, In Extremo, Estampie do with medieval ;) We dont and probably wont know; it's up to the artists impression and to suit their style ;) Whilst it may be quick to others; to me it's doesn't matter as long as I enjoy the music ;) When I want to jump around I will; but if I dont I just chill out with music :) Some gaelic songs are made uptempo, especially with Tannas, Julie Fowlis, Kathleen Macinnes, and in some cases Paul Mounsey; it's about bringing the language to a new audience ;) Whilst I respect everyone's opinion; it's how to go across it :)

I have my own particular sorrows, loves, delights; and you have yours. But sorrow, gladness, yearning, hope, love, belong to all of us, in all times and in all places. Music is the only means whereby we feel these emotions in their universality. ~H.A. Overstreet

Who cares what music sounds like as long as we enjoy music, be it different tastes, styles ;)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 04:55 AM

Not sure what the exact difference between Ensemble Unicorn and Oni Wytars is

The question was largely rhetorical; though looking through my wee pile of Naxos Ensemble Unicorn and Oni Wytars CDs (7 of them) I think it's a matter of direction - Michael Posch for Unicorn and Marco Ambrosini for Oni Wytars - though both belong to each ensemble and three of the Naxos albums (On the Way to Bethlehem, Carmina Burana, Music of the Troubadours) are by both ensembles, with largely the same members, many of whom are also members of The Clemencic Consort as well!

Confusing or what? It would be like The Beatles having a different name according to whose song they're doing, but there's nothing unusual here. I was once in two trios - exactly the same line-up, but very different as musical concepts & leadership. Even now we lately did some tracks for Coldspring's Dark Brittanica Volume Two CD using one name for the duo (Venereum Arvum) and another for the trio (Demdyke) which was the same duo + another member!

One thing is clear though, I doubt either Ensemble Unicorn or Oni Wytars will be dressing up for Ren Fairs and English Heritage Medieval Family Fun Days claiming the sort of resolute authenticity some of those guys do! Just look at that old 1976 clip of David Munrow linked to above - blokes in suits, but masters of exacting musicianship and scholarship that are the benchmarks of serious Early Music up to this day, a tradition which Unicorn and Oni Wytars are following perfectly I'd say. When it comes to speed, then I would think what you hear from Unicorn et al is exactly what you would have heard from the musicians back in the 14th Century. No reason to think otherwise - this is virtuoso music open to all levels of interpretation - and scolarship - and remember, David Munrow upped the stakes all those years ago. Just because it takes its name from a dance, does that mean it was always played for dancing?

*

Sadly, Corvus Corax (et al) aren't doing anything new at all, on the contrary - they're actually dumbing the music down for the sake of popular entertainment - like Celtic Woman and Riverdance - big audiences, lots of fans, but who cares? The NEW stuff will ALWAYS be by the likes of Oni Wytars, Sarband, Ensemble Unicorn, Hesperion XXI and... hell, even that 1976 clip of David Munrow is streets ahead of Corvus Corax who are more interested in showboating than playing music - all they're doing is taking their old Ren Fair costume act to the rock concert stage.

Talking of entertainment - this is fun in a Red Priest sort of way:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXiAXkpKN64

A different form of showboating perhaps? Though the remit of Eclipse is on a different level entirely as some of their other videos show. Like Red Priest, a lot of serious musicians are having to put quite a spin on things to get noticed these days, and put on quite a lot of make-up too...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 05:05 AM

That last clip was of Layil Barr. Here she is again doing much the same thing a more sober setting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrmsJUSAH1A

Love that double recorder...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: Tootler
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 06:33 AM

I'd never play the Rotta that slowly.

I had sacrificed a little bit of speed for the sake of accuracy when I made the recording. It is better to play a little more slowly and remain in control. I can play it faster and do at home but I wanted to avoid obvious errors on the recording. BTW, I used a Mollenhauer dream alto played up an octave from the written notation.

Interestingly (in response to Suibhne) it is thought by some scholars that the collection in the British Museum MS, although based on dance forms was probably for listening rather than dancing.

My argument about tempo is not that I think they are necessarily wrong but rather that too many pieces in succession at the same high tempo becomes wearing on the ear. Nevertheless, I do think that playing very fast loses something in the musicality. I felt that to be the case in Ensemble Unicorn's version of Tristano/La Rotta but not in some of the other pieces. This is, of course, a matter of personal opinion.

When it comes to speed, then I would think what you hear from Unicorn et al is exactly what you would have heard from the musicians back in the 14th Century.

We don't know that and never will.

However I do think that there would have been musicians at that time capable of playing that quickly. Of course, just because you can does not mean that you should :-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 07:38 AM

The way it was told to me is that you had to think of these musical professionals holed up in plague beseiged castles a la Masque of the Red Death / Decameron coming up with increasingly complicated music just to keep themselves sane, however so debauched the music can appear! The 8 Inspanpittas of MS #29987 are exactly that - highly evolved virtuouo instrumental sequences that are best heard played by more-than competent professions at a pace suitable to pushing the limits. Those Oni Wytars / Ensemble Unicorn videos & recordings seem brisk enough in this respect, but I've also heard them played omniously slow as well, which, as you know, is just as demanding. I remember a recording by David Munrow of Lamento di Tristano which was mindblowing in this respect, but where & when that was I can't say, only it might have been a soundtrack for a film about cycle racing (?).

For sure, we will never know, but if musicians can do it now there's no reason to suppose they couldn't back then either - some anyway, but not all, but that's always been the case. Here's David Munrow's take on Istanpitta Ghaetta:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3Tg_NSmXTU

Lovely recorder, tastefull drones, but the drumming is way off, for more reasons than I might possibly go into here. Suffice it to say that musical imagination can very often run both ways in the quest for the merely authentic. At least Corvus Corax know what drums are for!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: RunrigFan
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 05:30 PM

It's not Corvus Corax's fault for doing things different is it? It's like when someone does gaelic and make it it different, ever heard of Julie Fowlis, Kathleen Macinnes, Mary Jane Lamond, Paul Mounsey, Capercaillie are they at fault for bringing gaelic to new people? No! Runrig has proven that having been together over 36 years, same thing for Clannad and Capercaillie :) Who cares? well the people that go to the gigs; if a band is bringing in the fans, still selling gigs and still going strong is much more important then what kind of music they do; or how they approach it. Do you listen to medieval, yes Corvus Corax, In Extremol, Quantal and such like do it their way. There's no right or wrong way; unless you assume that bands like Corvus Corax have to do it like you want it to? Wouldn't that be boring if every band and artist did it exactly like everyone else. Ever heard of waulking songs? bands like Tannas, Mary Jane Lamond, Julie Fowlis, Kathleen Macinnes do it their way; so just because an artist does it their own way doesn't mean it's wrong; it's about experimenting with different styles, to make it popular. Not all gaelic is stuck to one style; Clannad, Capercaillie, Julie Fowlis, Kathleen Macinnes, Mary Jane Lamond dont stick to one style as if they stuck with one style it would become monotonous and people will turn away cos they havn't done anything new; they are popular, Julie going since 2005, Clannad since 1970, Capercaillie since 1984, and yes bands will do their own thing and they may suceed or fail but music is universal; like it or not every artist is different.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 06:02 PM

Munrow's drummer is doing what James Blades says is the basic exercise you need to do to get started playing mediaeval percussion - crotchet-quaver-quaver, no variation, fixed tempo, keep it going for at least half an hour straight. But I think even Blades would have agreed you oughta go somewhere beyond that in performance, and that tune isn't even in a simple modal rhythm.

I didn't like Eclipse's darbuka very much. It wasn't even used in much of the Middle East at the period this music was written - a frame drum (with or without jingles) would have been better.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 05:50 AM

Fault? It's called showboating, RunrigFan - and it's very deliberate; it's entertainment, posturing, showbiz glitz, pure and simple, but no harm in that, just - it's not the real stuff. Waulking Songs are the things women used to sing whilst at the their daily labours; I used to listen to recordings of them on the old School of Scottish Studies albums - real beautiful voices, without the commercial gloss. I blame Alan Stivell myself...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XD3pDSPsl4M

Actually, I saw Runrig one cold night in Edinburgh with Alan Stivell back in the 80s - both were just pop groups really, with folkie agendas, but the audience went wild for it. Clannad likewise, though I do like some of their earlier stuff before the Celtic Twilight / Celtic Woman stuff took over. I suppose one the things about Folk and Early Music is that for the most part both exist without the Commercial Gloss - quite apart from the fact that musically Corvus Corax aren't even in the same league as even low-key ensembles like Unicorn and Oni Wytars, let alone the breadth and depth of work being done by the likes of Jordi Savall all these years.

But just personal preference really, with just a hint of snobbery in there for good measure...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: Tootler
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 11:15 AM

Not forgetting a hint of one upmanship.

I can read the cover the Chominciamento di gioia CD as well.

- From one who is a little bit guilty of the same crimes.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 11:43 AM

It's true, I get most of my learning / trivia from CD & album covers! Not just the Naxos ones though - and I've worked & recorded with serious medievalists who've studied that MS directly, something which I doubt I'd ever be inclined to do really, much less be able to play most of it. I might manage a Lamento di Tristano or a Saltarello, but the big Istanpittas are a tad beyond me, though I can access them as a drummer no bother at all. When it comes to Medieval stuff, I'm far happier improvising on more basic tunes from the Cantigas de Santa Maria like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_t0Vm7Gjrs

It's not just a matter of one-upmanship though, just a passion for such things coupled with a general despair at seeing the music I love being dumbed down by the likes of Corvus Corax. Hell, for most of my life the Culture of Early Music has never aproached anything like the profile David Munrow had back in the day - languishing in the shadows & more obscure than Folk or Free-Improv, with many artists doing all three - no surprise there! Even now you get the venerable old bands like The Clemencic Consort still enchanting us with stuff that sounds like it's been recovered from Romanesque Carvings in Chartres Cathedral using Ryan Electrics's Stone Tape technology. Not much showboating there...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 01:08 PM

Thanks for the link to the improvisation; much appreciated!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: RunrigFan
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 12:39 AM

OK what is the "real" stuff; do we have have evidence medieval sang it like you think they do? Everyone has a right to do it their way; who cares if it's entertainment; I wouln't say dumbing down; it's an artist impression of what might've sounded like, nothing wrong with that.

Explain what is the real thing; then I may get somewhere. Do you any evidence what other performers do is the real thing? It's music, we're talking about not about whether it's right or wrong meeting! Yes it's entertainment, but Corvus Corax isnt that well known outside Germany, so wouldn't call it showbiz. Why do people have a problem of an artist impression? OK as many gaelic bands, Clannad, Capercaillie, Runrig; do we have evidence that when gaelic was popular; they done it "EXACTLY" like a band or an artist does?

It's about fusing different styles, why you think Clannad, Capercaillie, Runrig, Julie Fowlis, Kathleen Macinnes, Mary Jane Lamond, Paul Mounsey are popular nowadays? Is it a crime to do it your way; and what is the right way of doing a song? There is no or right way; yes it may cause debates but Corvus Corax isnt at FAULT for doing it their way, same way a gaelic band/artist do it their way! Do we have evidence that's how they sang; do we have evidence that's how they performed their music. They didn't have cameras 500 years ago; how you say it's the real thing without any proof. Music is an universal language; it reaches people; country/jazz is quite modern only since the 19th century; gaelic from over 500 years, medieval evan longer. It's like if you saw a archaeological dig and found pottery; can you assume if you saw that; would you know what clothes they were wearing, or what music they would perform? No you cannot; we dont know how medieval music sounded, yes there are manuscripts; but they only transribe the lyrics/notes but no concrete evidence they singing the sing as it was written because we dont know. We can only go by the record books; to bands like Corvus Corax, Qntal, In Extremo and medieval performers; everyone has their own impression, it may not be the right one; but if that artist/happy then that's what matters; who cares if they are popular or not.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 04:36 AM

In the case of Waulking Songs that's pretty easily established - we have the collected notes & recordings and dedicated lineages of singers keeping the songs (if not the Waulking itself) going as part of as wider revival. What the others do is a commercial gloss on this - it's not the real thing, but they have every entitlement to do it, as you do to enjoy it, just don't get the two things confused.

In medieval music it's a similiar, though more convoluted, story. The real thing in this case is the schorlarly work of those academics and musicians who work at the front line of serious Early Music research. This isn't to say such musicians can't be popular - just check out Jordi Savall's Alia Vox label, but this is primary sourced music of the highest musical and academic quality - and the packaging ain't half bad either! What Corvus Corax do is to dumb that down to present some diluted impression of it for a non-specialised audience; they lift their material wholesale from the work of medieval music specialists and make it into commercial product for a largely indiscriminating audience - at least as far as specialised Early Music is concerned. To call it medieval music is a little odd (to me at least) because, as I said earlier, I first encountered Corvus Corax as cabarat costume act on the European equivilent to the Ren Fair circuit (I think it might have been at Tewkesbury Abbey) and God knows they're not alone in this, as a look on YouTube will reveal with various Corvus Corax Clones very much in evidence. All great Fun, as I say, but it's not real. After all, they can only do what they do because of the work of the real musicians from whom they've got the material in the first place!

I might go on to question the overall aesthetics of such an approach, but as this is showbusiness, rather than serious music, that would, I think, be futile. But no serious & dignified Early Music Ensemble feels the need to do it costume, and those that do, no matter how accomplished otherwise, are doing something very different to serious Early Music. So - real and unreal; non-commercial and commercial; serious musical scholarship or show-biz spectacle - the choice is yours, and mine, but I would have thought the lines between the one thing and the other are pretty clear.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: GUEST,Tim
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 06:02 AM

Who cares?

Medieval as many of bands tunes are from the medieval period. Saltarello, Saderalladon, Veris Dulcis, Pacel Aqua, Palästinalied, amongst other songs; hence why I call it medieval.

You don't have evidence what real medieval music sounded like; as soon as you know get back to me. How are they dumbing down the music; they get many lyrics from carmina burana; and I dont think you seen Corvus Corax, as far as I can recall they havn't played in UK; but in France,
Netherlands. Germany, USA, China; I dont agree they are dumbing it down; on their DVD; they have appealed to metal fans, folk fans, medieval fans, rock fans; music deserves to belong outside the battle fields; and away from Ren-fair as people will argue they seen it before. Who cares if they have costumes? Don't you see costumes at ren-fairs and such like? I rest my case there! Real thing my beep; you have to be different; why do you think Clannad, Capercaillie, Mary Jane Lamond, Runrig are popular nowadays? Yes they changed their styles; has it affected the Chieftains, has it affected Capercaillie; has it affected Paul Mounsey; or gaelic singers such as Karen Matheson, Christine Primrose? No it hasn't! People are stuck with the past and believe anyone who does celtic music have to do it like traditional all the time; or any medieval performer have to perform it in ren-fairs that if they do it across the world; they are breaking tradition. Didn't the minstrels travel; just like the bards did? Music can reach anyone,; no matter how they do their music; who cares if they do it different as long as they are doing well; and fans get a good vibe is much more important I feel.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 06:31 AM

You don't have evidence what real medieval music sounded like

How about reading a book someday? You know, one of those things with a hard rectangular cover and floppy sheets of combustible stuff with writing on inside?

There is a mountain of evidence about what mediaeval music sounded like: written descriptions, pictures, surviving instruments. It isn't always unambiguous and the process of interpreting it isn't finished yet, but there is PLENTY enough evidence to let you tell the difference between somebody who's tried to find out what's actually known and somebody who's just making it up.

There's nothing wrong with playing mediaeval music in a way nobody in the Middle Ages would have recognized. Church organists accompanying hymns have been doing it for hundreds of years; so has anybody who ever quoted a mediaeval tune in their own new composition. But there is a lot wrong with dishonestly claiming nobody knows anything, simply because your act is based around laziness and you can't be arsed to read a few (fairly simple) historical texts.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: RunrigFan
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 07:12 AM

Sorry


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tune req: Saltarello - Medieval dance/folk
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 07:28 AM

All I did was to answer the question as to what the difference is between what is real and what isn't - that much is pretty obvious & very factual. Corvus Corax are a covers group, parotting a lot of the genuine work of other more serious early music groups and dumbing it down with posing, posturing, costumes and heavy metal light shows. They're like the Medieval Baebes or Celtic Woman: Great fun maybe, but hardly cutting edge serious medieval music - it's all been done before & so much better - their version of Saltarello #2 being a case in point. Maybe it wasn't them I saw at Tewkesbury - but there are a lot of people doing this sort of thing these days, some are better at it than others, but in the end it's all light-weight family entertainment. Please don't take it to heart.

S O'P - A light-weight family entertainer who knows his place in the grand scheme of things.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 19 February 4:58 PM EST

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.