Perpetuated Errors

Subject: RE: Perpetuated Errors
From: GUEST,jeff
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 01:45 AM

Sometimes the whole 'lyric police' thing can be a little ridiculous. When playing in a Celtic band a few years ago we did a song called 'Donald, Where's Your Trousers?' Always a great crowd pleaser. Then one night we had a woman come up and tell the singer that the 'proper' Scottish pronunciation was Tr-r-roosers and not 'Trowzers'...the American version. So, in deference to the woman we began to sing it 'proper'. It fell flat everytime we played it for a while. Finally, I suggested we go back to our original 'improper' pronunciation and the song became a showstopper again for us.

Nobody in Pittsburgh understood what 'Tr-r-oosers' are apparently.

But, that doesn't mean Dick Gaughan and Andy M. Stewart aren't 2 of my favorite singers, though understanding them at times is a bit of a challenge...

Subject: RE: Perpetuated Errors
From: Gurney
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 02:48 AM

AS BrooklynJay wrote above, not all composers maintain their original words. Tawney 'polished' his songs to the extent that he himself lost complete verses, and it is difficult to find one of his more popular songs with a superfluous word. He said that he was surprised when he first heard 'Chicken on a Raft' with the held note in the chorus ('a-a-a-aft') but he liked it.

Subject: RE: Perpetuated Errors
From: Mr Red
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 05:48 AM

Soodlums publish many songs "Popular in Ireland" and as a result nearly everyone assumes they must be Irish Folk Songs.

viz Wild Rover first documented from Harry Cox of Norfolk (or was it Sam Larner?) - there you go we don't stand a chance.

I do remember at a Folk Society in Toronto a singer had a swatch of typed lyrics and not one had an author. Lightfoot, McTell, Hardin, even Stan Rogers for heavans sake - were all represented in the pile! And I found this anonimity pretty prevalent in the city's folk clubs.

Subject: RE: Perpetuated Errors
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 12:18 PM

Sorry if what I said about "definitive versions" confused Mr Happy, and he then got slapped down for repeating what I'd said, and wrongly attributed with having made the comment in the first place! Seems like a classic example of the folk process to me!
I was referring to discussion on the corrections thread about what goes into the DT: once something's in there it seems to get taken as "the definitive version" and may become hard to get changed.

I don't have too much problem with folk changing things (accidentally (or even on purpose) if they don't make a radical difference to the meaning of the song: the interchanging of say "and" and "but" or inclusion/exclusion of a word like "sometimes" makes little impact, but if it is a complete nonsense, then yes. I will protest.
But having said that, in "Flower of Scotland" a lot of people sing "be A nation again", when in fact what Roy Williamson wrote was "be THE nation again". A very minor difference in terminology but quite a big difference in meaning!

And re Eric Bogle's "floures" or "floowrs", that's his Scots pronunciation: if you can't do it, Flowers is fine!

Yes, and I agree with Mr Red about correctly crediting authors: it' s usually simple to do your homework these days thanks to the internet and find out who wrote something or where it came from. (if you get conflicting answers take the majority or most credible view!)

Two recent bands at our local folk club have been guilty of howlers of incorrect attribution of origin of songs, despite distinct geographical references in both songs. A little Googling (or geographical knowledge) would have easily got them the right answers.

Subject: RE: Perpetuated Errors
From: Genie
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 03:32 AM

Joe,
I'm not basing my take on "Summertime" on pop or jazz recordings. I believe the line was originally sung in the opera "Porgy and Bess" as "take the sky."   (I could be wrong, though. I was once before. ; ) )

As for City Of New Orleans, it wouldn't surprise me if Goodman himself didn't always sing the lyrics the same way. That's the case with many other songwriters (most notably Woody Guthrie, whose songs often had many lyric incarnations).   

You do raise an interesting issue though. It is often very difficult to trace "the original" version of a song, as even published songbooks and sheet music, liner notes, etc., have been known to be taken from various recordings or contain other errors.   

When possible, I try to find the songwriter's own original recording or the recording of the first artist to record the song.
In the case of "Summertime," that would be the opera itself, not subsequent pop, jazz, folk, blues, etc. recordings.
Here is
"Summertime" from the opera "Porgy & Bess"

The soprano clearly sings "... take the sky ...", not "take to the sky ....".

Subject: RE: Perpetuated Errors
From: Genie
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 03:38 AM

I'd like to underscore my earlier contention that, while many lyric variations are insignificant or may even improve on earlier versions of a song (especially a "trad" song), if a lyricist is particularly skillful and deliberate in choice of words, either for meaning or for musicality or both, I hate to see the lyrics become less artistic or less powerful in their significance because someone substituted less stellar lyrics in a performance and others copied that.

Subject: RE: Perpetuated Errors
From: Darowyn
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 04:03 AM

'Someone substituted less stellar lyrics in a performance and others copied that. "
A good example is the way in which the lady referred to in "Try a Little Tenderness" is frequently seen wearing a "shaggy" dress, thanks to 'The Committments' version. The original word is, of course, "shabby"
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: Perpetuated Errors
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 08:32 AM

I know lyrics are changed and become almost impossible to "correct" (ref: "by the gasworks wall" instead of "by the gasworks croft" in "Dirty Old Towm") but some are just plain wrong and *should* be corrected.

The number of corrections to lyrics of Ewan MacColl' "Joy of Living" that I've submitted to lyrics/ tabs sites over the last couple of years is quite large.

Usually it's the names of the mountains that are wrong..."Glyder Fach" and "Suilven" are often changed to phrases/ names with no connection to mountains and which are pure goblledegook within the song, while "Cul Beag, Scafell" if often rendered as "cold big Scafell". And I've seen "Eagerly savour each new day and the taste of its mouth" given as all sorts of completely nonsensical phrases.

To suggest that these mistakes shouldn't be corected as it's "part of the folk process" is a little odd to me.

At the same time, I know that the version of "Banks of the Sweet Primroses" that I sing has slightly different words to other versions that I've heard ( I sing "three long steps" but have heard "three short steps" several times, and I sing "She said stand off..." while others sing "stand off, stand off...", etc) but this I regard as normal and acceptable "morphing" in that it doesn't change the sense of the song.

OTOH, when I first learned Bob Kenward's "Man of Kent" I used the Stuart Pendrill version, where Bob's "sea cliffs of Dover" are replaced with "white cliffs of Dover" and "willow and weather" is eplaced by "willow on leather". Once Bob explained to me that he'd *deliberately* not used those phrases as he'd thought they were too cliched I changed my version immediately.

Subject: RE: Perpetuated Errors
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 08:33 AM

Gobbledegook, I meant...it looks like pure goblledegook the way I wrote it :-)

Subject: RE: Perpetuated Errors
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 09:22 AM

Somebody once managed to cock up "The Old Changing Way" by Richard Thompson (I can't recall if it was on a record or on the wireless). Richard wrote:

We never agreed to divide our tin
And when you're out of love with your brother your hard times begin
For the spikes and the brothels, they are shameful to see
But don't you travel alone, boys, this warning you take from me

In this version spikes and brothels became strifes and quarrels!

Mind you Richard's voice is so far down the mix on "Henry The Human Fly", I can't say I'm surprised. Took me years to decipher "Wheely Down". This was of course years before the Worldly Wildly Web.

Subject: RE: Perpetuated Errors
From: JHW
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 04:34 PM

One night in the Black Lion, Richmond, Yorks, Mick Sheehan was singing 'The Rybuck Shearer'. At each chorus I was baffled by 'and I'll never ???sore??? to take another blow' so murmured a sound something like I was hearing. Whispering to my neighbour "never what?" he nor the next knew either and half the company were making guessing noises.
Without knowing, one would never work out 'I'll never open Sorbies'
(A brand of sheep shears)

Subject: RE: Perpetuated Errors
From: Joe_F
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 08:41 PM

A curious example of a song *all* of whose known versions appear to be corrupt is "Wildwood Flower". It has been extensively discussed in this company.

Subject: RE: Perpetuated Errors
From: Mr Happy
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 09:21 AM

Rob Naylor,

'To suggest that these mistakes shouldn't be corected as it's "part of the folk process" is a little odd to me.'


Well said, Rob, that's the essence of why I began this discussion

Subject: RE: Perpetuated Errors
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 06:55 PM

The "folk process" can greatly improve a song. Sometimes. But it can also render a really marvelous song into a piece of tripe.

A good example is Child #26. The Three Ravens. A classic ballad with a strong coloration of the kind of medieval poetry from which it sprang, here sung to lute accompaniment (I think), by countertenor Andreas Scholl. CLICKY #1. The performance is not to everyone's taste, I'm sure, but it illustrates the "medieval minstrel ballad" nature of the song as it was often sung way back.

I've run across two "folk processed" American versions. Here's one, CLICKY #2. Suitably singable for a bunch of Boy Scouts all singing around a campfire, but it hardly gives a clue as to the quality of poetry from which it initially sprang centuries ago. Yes, it, too, is considered as a version of Child #26. A "degenerated" version.

And another version, which I ran across in Richard Chase's American Folk Tales and Songs:

The Two Ravens
(traditional, The Three Ravens, Child #26)
pentatonic – melody, "Ye Banks and Braes of Bonnie Doon."

There were two ravens who sat on a tree,
And they were black as they could be;
And one of them, I heard him say,
"Oh, where shall we go to dine today?
Shall we go down to the salt, salt sea,
Or shall we go dine by the greenwood tree?
Shall we go down to the salt, salt sea,
Or shall we go dine by the greenwood tree?"

"As I walked down on the white sea sand,
I saw a fair ship sailing near at hand.
I waved my wings, I bent my beak;
That ship she sank, I heard a shriek.
Oh, there lie sailors, one, two, and three;
Oh, shall we go dine by the wild salt sea?"
    (repeat last two lines, as in verse 1)

"Come, I shall show you a far better sight;
A lonesome glen, and a new-slain knight;
His blood yet on the grass is hot,
His sword half-drawn, his shafts unshot.
And no one knows that he lies there
But his hound and his hawk and his lady fair.
    (repeat)

"His hound is to the hunting gone,
His hawk to fetch the wild fowl home,
His lady's away to another mate.
Oh, we shall make our feasting sweet!
Our dinner is sure, our feasting is free,
Oh, come and we'll dine by the greenwood tree!
   (repeat)

"Oh, you shall tear at his naked white thighs,
And I'll peck out his fair blue eyes.
You pull a lock of his fine yellow hair
To thicken your nest where it grows bare.
The golden down on his young chin
Will do to rest my young ones in."
   (repeat)

Oh, cold and bare his bed will be
When white winter storms sing in the tree.
His head's on turf, at his feet a stone.
He'll sleep nor hear young maidens mourne.
O'er his white bones the birds will fly,
The wild deer run, the foxes cry.
   (repeat)

"This extraordinarily good text came to me through Mrs. Willard Brooks, now of Washington, D. C.. She could not remember where she learned it. Artus Moser collected it on Gashes Creek, Hickory Nut Gap, near Asheville, North Carolina, and Annabel Morris Buchanan has found it in Virginia." From American Folk Tales and Songs, compiled by Richard Chase (Signet Key Book, The New American Library, 1956).

This version tells a somewhat bleaker story than the better known and much earlier Thomas Ravenscroft one that Andreas Scholl sings. But although time and geography have changed it considerably¸ the "folk processed" text is certainly of a quality right up there with the earlier Ravenscroft version.

But the other one, "Billie Magee Magaw," the folk process has managed to lose the human elements and convert the song into a piece of doggerel about two crows and a dead horse.

No, the folk process does NOT always improve a song.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Perpetuated Errors
From: Tootler
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 08:00 PM

Don,

The song you quoted above looks very much like an American version of the Scots Ballad "The Twa Corbies". I first came across it in a little book by Norman Buchan called "101 Scottish Songs".

The Twa Corbies

As I was walking all alane,
I heard twa corbies making a mane;
The tane unto the t'ither did say,
'Whaur sall we gang and dine the day?'

'It's in ahint yon auld fail dyke,
I wot there lies a new slain knight;
And naebody kens that he lies there,
But his hawk, his hound, and his lady fair.

'His hound is to the hunting gane,
His hawk to fetch the wild-fowl hame,
His lady's ta'en anither mate,
So we may mak our dinner swate.

'Ye'll sit on his white hause-bane,
And I'll pike oot his bonny blue een;
Wi ae lock o' his gouden hair
We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare.

'There's mony a ane for him makes mane,
But nane sall ken whaur he is gane;
O'er his white banes, when they are bare,
The wind sall blaw for evermair.

Some say this ballad is older than the Three Ravens and other argue that it is derived from the Three Ravens and is of relatively recent origin.

Whichever is the case both are fine ballads each taking a different slant on the opening scene.

Subject: RE: Perpetuated Errors
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 11:42 PM

It is indeed. Listed in the Francis James Child catalog, (Child #26) as The Three Ravens or The Twa Corbies. The two, and all the others under that number, pretty obviously have a common ancestor back in the mists of antiquity.

Some Scottish immigrant(s) undoubtedly brought it to Virginia or North Carolina and it wandered from there.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Perpetuated Errors
From: Musket
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 11:10 AM

One old music hall song that you hear in many folk clubs is Pomona. All about The Pomona Palace in Salford, near Pomona Docks, at Albert Square. (Not around any more.)

Usually sung as Lamona..........

Subject: RE: Perpetuated Errors
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 06:04 AM

Singers, writers and publishers have long been changing place names to local ones. Frank Hennessy's Old Carmarthen Oak (in Wales)has been relocated to Dungannon and Dungarvan (in Ireland).

Subject: RE: Perpetuated Errors
From: Richard from Liverpool
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 06:24 AM

Broadside printers were very good at the changing place names thing. There's a 19th century broadside ballad I know as "Liverpool's an altered town"; but change a few words here and there and you've got "Manchester's an altered town" and "Preston's an altered town" - all by the same printer (Harkness of Preston). Clearly in this case they weren't 'errors', just adaptations. But this was a 'new ballad' being printed. I guess the question here would be; is changing the scene of a song with a long history an "error" or an "adaptation"?

Thinking back to songs I know and the place-change adaptations they may contain, most people who I've heard singing "Black is the colour" sing it with the words "I go to the Clyde and I mourn and weep", following Hamish Imlach's rendition of the song. Is this a perpetuated error, or part of the folk process? I'm inclined towards the latter, especially seeing as I heard and learned this from pub singing long before I heard the Imlach recording (so I didn't really know of the source of the "Clyde" reference for a long time; it was just part of the oral transmission). But I'm inconsistent, because there are other changes that frustrate me, because they lose sight of the history or place that gave the song life.

Subject: RE: Perpetuated Errors
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 07:30 AM

Perpetuating errors, Mr. Mather! Pomona Gardens, later the location of the Manchester Ship Canal's docks 1-4, were in Stretford, on the other side of the Irwell from Salford. As for roving all night, well Albert Square to Pomona Gardens is less than two miles! And Albert Square has never been a round!

Subject: RE: Perpetuated Errors
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 04:18 PM

As Richard quite rightly states the OP is referring to errors rather than adaptations, the one accidental or even careless and the other deliberate.

However this is also the essence of the oral tradition and most of those who love songs that have been shaped by oral tradition feel that the overall effect is largely one of improvement.

Even taking Don's example. He abhors the much corrupted Billy McGee McGaw descendants of The Three Ravens. I prefer to think of these as separate songs with different purposes. Thay have become comic songs and much of their comedy lies in the method of performance. I am in the advantageous position of being able to appreciate both songs and indeed others on the same evolutionary path.

Subject: RE: Perpetuated Errors
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 06:15 PM

I don't "abhor" the song, Steve. And you're right, it's actually morphed into a different song. I just picked that one because it's a fairly blantant illustration of how the folk process doesn't always improve a song.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Perpetuated Errors
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 03:09 PM

"I remember Eric Bogle at Bromyard FF introducing Willie MacBride"

I saw Bogle in Kelso and someone asked him if he minded "all these Irish singers getting the words and even the title wrong of No Man's Land". He said "as long as I got paid my royalties I don't care" :-)

Subject: RE: Perpetuated Errors
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 02:58 PM

Some of the comments in this thread, are too good to get lost in a thread of unrelated songs. I've moved the "Three Score and Ten" messages over to this thread, and I'll eventually move the corbies/ravens messages. Hope y'all don't mind.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Perpetuated Errors
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 03:30 PM

That Corbies Text is very similar to one I use which came (sans melody) from an old book called The Legendary Ballads of England & Scotland.

O there were twa corbies sat on a tree; large & black as black might be;
an' the ane unto the ither gan say: aye, where shall we gan & dine today?
Shall we dine by the wild salt sea? Or shall we dine 'neath the greenwood tree?

As I sat by the deep sea strand, I saw a fair ship nigh at land;
I waved my wings I beat my beak, that ship it sunk & I heard the shriek.
Aye, the drowned ones lie, one, two & tree; I shall dine by the wild salt sea.

Come and I'll show ye a sweeter sight, there's a lonesome glen & a new slain knight;
an' his blood yet on the grass is hot; his sword half drawn, his shafts unshot.
And no one knows that he lies there, but his hawk, & his hound, & his lady fair.

His hound is to the hunting gone; his hawk tae fetch the wild fowl hame;
and his lady's awa' with another man, so we maun make our dinner long:
our dinner's sure, our feasting free, come & dine 'neath the greenwood tree.

Ye shall sit out on his white hause-bane, while I'll pike oot his bonny blue een;
An' ye'll take a tree of his yellow hair to theek wa nest when it grows bare:
the gowlden down on his young chin will do tae row my young ones in.

Aye cold and bare his bed will be when winter storms sing in the tree;
At his head a turf, at his feet a stone; he'll sleep nor hear the maiden's moan
Ower his white bones the birds shall fly, the wild dear bound & foxes cry.

The tune I sing it to is my own.

Subject: RE: Perpetuated Errors
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 May 11 - 06:22 AM

A further example came to light last night when my SO showed me a piece of music downloaded from the net entitled 'Davy Nick Nack'.

Obviously the same tune as 'Davy, Davy Knick Knack' but wrong spelling of the title

Subject: RE: Perpetuated Errors
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 May 11 - 06:53 AM

Further to Gregs Stephens' post above re the Cantwell family's rendition of 'Nightingale' in which he cahastised me.

How can anyone know that their 'traditional' way of singing it may've contained perpetuated flaws?

After all someone in their family would've heard [or misheard] it sung by another either singing the 'definitive' version or even a flawed one continuing to be perpetuated with errors

Subject: RE: Perpetuated Errors
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 May 11 - 06:53 AM

Further to Greg Stephens' post above re the Cantwell family's rendition of 'Nightingale' in which he cahastised me.

How can anyone know that their 'traditional' way of singing it may've contained perpetuated flaws?

After all someone in their family would've heard [or misheard] it sung by another either singing the 'definitive' version or even a flawed one continuing to be perpetuated with errors