David Kidman: An Apology

Subject: David Kidman: An Apology
From: DavidKidman
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 05:15 AM

Following the exchange of views in the recent thread (now closed) "David Kidman: April Gigs", I wish to apologise to Mudcatters for any confusion I may inadvertently have caused by my following the accepted practice of using a Mudcat "handle"/ID that was not my actual name.

OK, I come clean; it's a fair cop! Yet, I must point out, I've never actually denied my Mudcat ID at any time (in fact why should I? I've nothing to hide).
In the case of the thread referred to above, my posting as MoorleyMan started as nobbut an innocent (if maybe slightly tongue-in-cheek) publicity gambit to modestly drum up interest in a couple of local gigs.
However, a later response posting by MM was construed by one particular Catter as a pretence of being an unbiased observer of my own performance. That was never my intention, and if it came across that way, I can only put this down to ill-chosen words and/or an error of judgement on my part when rising over-hastily to correct a fact or two. That aside, from my perspective I felt the gig had gone well, and I merely echoed the general feel that came across in terms of the audience and response. (Any further, more specific evaluation of the performance of individual songs would necessarily be subjective of course…)
On learning of this misunderstanding, I admit that I panicked and signed myself up in my own name in an attempt to be open, clear the slate and hopefully at the same time stop the rot from spreading; I didn't get any further, for the thread had been closed. Hence the creation of this new thread.

Henceforth I shall follow the enlightened example of other Catters, and shall only post to this Forum using my own name, since I am now of the opinion that there is no benefit to be gained from the use of a separate Mudcat "name", however fun or "good idea at the time" it might appear.

I'd like to publicly thank those Catters who rose to my defence, those who have taken the time and trouble to get to know me and understand me. Good people one and all. Cheers!

As to the unpleasant personal accusations voiced by a certain "Guest, Daisy", however, which forced the closure of the thread: these seem to stem from some ancient-history malicious gossip that was doing the rounds many years ago, and are thus well past their sell-by date, yet I still find them deeply upsetting and hurtful.
Even if they were true – which they are NOT – one's personal life is exactly that, and such comments have absolutely no place on a respected public forum such as this.

Finally, I readily acknowledge that as far as singing goes, my approach and credo may be different from that of some others on the folk scene, and (inevitably) personal preference will always be a factor in reactions to it. But folk is a living and developing tradition, and no performer should be vilified for daring to be different if he/she retains his/her integrity and commitment. I maintain my belief in my role as a song-carrier. And as the saying goes, "I do what I do". While I'm always open to any constructive suggestions for improvement or development (as is any performer, surely – for everyone has to start somewhere, after all).
I will still be continuing with my booked gigs as advertised, therefore, beginning with the evening at Morley Folk Club on Wednesday 6th April 2011 in conjunction with the poet Jim Saville, "From Both Sides", which takes the form of an exploration of conflict in song and verse. Looking forward to seeing some of you Catters there.

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: GUEST,Banjiman
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 05:23 AM

Good for you David.

I'm glad you've cleared the air.

Paul

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: Silas
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 06:15 AM

Well, that took a bit of courage and I applaud you for it.

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 06:38 AM

David your commitment and support of Traditional Music cannot be questioned. Glad your joining those of us who ae happy to use our own name

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 06:46 AM

Very happy to see this, David. As Silas said - it takes some cojones to do this.

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: Crane Driver
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 06:54 AM

Yes, thanks for clearing things up, Dave.

As someone who posted to the earlier thread, can I say I have no personal issues or agenda where Dave is concerned. I've always got on well with him when we've met at festivals, I know how deep his commitment to folk music is, I enjoy his singing and have always found him a fair and effective MC and reviewer. I am not interested in allegations about his or anyone else's private life. And obviously I have no issues with anyone using an obscure or 'amusing' handle here on Mudcat. I accept that some of 'MoorleyMan's' postings on the earlier thread were 'ill-chosen' and I'm happy to consider the whole matter closed.

Andrew

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 06:56 AM

Well done Dave for 'coming out'

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: Acorn4
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 07:39 AM

I use my "handle", but sometimes put my name in the post as well if it would help to be identified on any particular occasion. I think quite a few of us know who each other are any way.

Glad the gigs went OK!

Dave Taylor

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: GUEST,OldNicKilby
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 08:11 AM

Well done Dave you have the gravitas to rise above the menopausal venom. You know you have our full support and friendship. About time you made the effort to come to Second Saturday.
Keep on singing(b----r that came out as sinning)
Nic

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: RTim
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 08:34 AM

Well done David, and thank you for coming clean.

I have never really been a supporter of "Avatars" or "Mudcat Handles", even though I use one when posting, I have ALWAYS added my own name at the end of each post.
I think this is the best and most transparent method.

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: GUEST,John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 08:35 AM

Quite often, the outcome of telling the truth about someone,is for them to tell lies about you.
Do what I do, ignore the detractors, they reveal their lack of brains, by their reactions to slights, real or imagined.
At least you came out Dave, well done. Don't hold your breath waiting for others to follow suit though! ;-)

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: Tyke
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 08:38 AM

Dave is obviously from the South so he maybe forgiven for not knowing about the advice given by Yorkshires Three Brass Monkeys. I will now pass on this wonderful piece of knowledge to David and to remind all that this advice should be taken on board.

The Monkey's are Called See All, Hear All and Say Nowt!

This piece of Yorkshire advice is indicated by the sitting position of the three wise Monkeys!

See all, drink all and pay knowt!
Tha niver git's owt far knowt and if tha dose tha must keep it far thee sen!

So I am not going to tell you that it is the artist themselves who write their own blurb and do not criticise anyone especially anyone who might give them a booking or review their album. ALEDGIDLY!

I'm also not going to tell you that publishing an inflammatory statement will be the one that gets the biggest reaction and keep people reading and commenting and selling News Papers and Magazines. ALEDGIDLY!

Dave is certainly an enthusiastic individual no doubt he was just attempting to put bums on seats. Nothing wrong with that but I think that were we would advise Dave who lives in Ilkley to wear a hat! When you have many Hat's you must make it clear which Hat you are wearing. Be it singer, poet, reviewer, MC, booking agent or Twitchier!

So all in all Dave's apology is to be appreciated and once you have read the offending thread and Dave's apology you can make up your own minds about it. Then remember the Three Wise Monkey's!

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 08:53 AM

"Tha niver git's owt far knowt and if tha dose tha must keep it far thee sen!"

At last - something that is Greek to me!

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 08:55 AM

"only post to this Forum using my own name, since I am now of the opinion that there is no benefit to be gained from the use of a separate Mudcat "name", however fun or "good idea at the time" it might appear."

Another soul saved.... sigh .... so many, so little time ....

I don't care if people use not their own personal legal name, as long as they use a logged in member name (which can be changed at any time, and all your previous posts will carry over to the new id).

Of the 12 posts so far - 4 are 'guests' with allegedly constant 'guestnames' ie 'not members' who refuse for various reasons to not be members - BUT your 'handle can be stolen at any moment by a troll to discredit you.

After all the years i've been here, so far I've found less than half a dozen threads a year (all BS) for which purposes being 'anonymous' may be thought 'necessary'.

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: keyofzed
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 09:03 AM

Well done David
See you at Morley tonight

http://www.morleyfolk.org/

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: Tyke
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 09:11 AM

George I think it's a quote from that greek Chap Confusion who may or may not have lived in China!

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 09:17 AM

Why can't people write their own copy? David's a sound critic and a damn fine singer to boot - seems fair enough to me whatever name he does it under. You get that all the time these days, like on The Apprentice when people tell us their strengths & weaknesses. No bad thing either - I'm sure we're all aware of our own as singers / musicians and how good we are in our own right or else in comparison to others, otherwise why would we bother? Times Modesty can be a curse, or lack of self-confidence, and bottle...


As for names - in the common law you can go by whatever name you like. I am twice Christened: once by my parents as Sean Breadin, then again as Sedayne by pure accident. On Mudcat I can at least choose to be Suibhne O' Piobaireachd, though I don't like signing in because I've had some bad PM experiences. It's an open forum, which would be better kept open, but that's just me.

S O'P

PS - I think Trolls are figments of on-line folklore & some particular repulsive name-calling that goes on around here...

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: Tyke
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 09:24 AM

Sorry George, I was it was a Greek! But his name was Popa Throwsupalot!

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 09:35 AM

Ah, yes Tyke - also known as Kantholdisgrog!

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 09:55 AM

I am thoroughly confused. And a bit sorry that David felt he had to deny the nasty accusations made against him. It is no one's business.

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 10:02 AM

That was all a bit silly. I thought everyone knew them two blokes was the same one.

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: Joe Nicholson
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 12:10 PM

I have not been a Mudcat member for very long but I do find the practice of mudcat names rather odd. Although I do know and meet some Mudcaters quite regularly I must also meet some without knowing they are mudcaters.I wonder should we develop a funny hanshake like the masons?
Well done Dave and Best of Luck

Joe Nicholson

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: Tyke
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 12:22 PM

Dave has quiet rightly put the record straight! Making it clear that his Mudcat or pen Name is MoorleyMan. I for one did not know MoorleyMan and Dave Kidman were one and the same.

All this could have been avoided if the Club Organizers had got off their Fat Backsides and told everyone that they had been lucky enough to obtain the paid services of David Kidman to do an extended Floor spot. Perhaps they did not want the clubs other Floor Singers to know that money was on offer for doing Floor spots. Dave was just trying to promote these Clubs and let his fans know he would be there and getting a share of the Door and or raffle take.

With out mentioning names (one Mudcater has used at least three) people who self promote and recommend themselves and or their Businesses should make it clear that they have they multiple Personalities, as Dave has now done, that they use to promote themselves. In one case this man not only promotes himself under one of his Mudcat Names but also slates what his ego he thinks is as a rival record distributor.

Honesty and the ability of being truthful are what we are all entitled too.
You have to have a very good memory to be a successful liar. Dave Kidman has apologised which is good. In this instance the people who blew the Whistle on him have done Dave a favour! For those who already worked out that he was doing a bit of self-promotion. Would find it hard to trust any words of wisdom from Dave in the future.

A person's private life has nothing to do with it! Well that is just not true especially if you put yourself in the Public Eye. It says a lot about a person's honesty but only if you know both sides. "Let he or she who is without sin cast the first stone".

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: Tyke
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 12:27 PM

Hi Joe and welcome to the Mudcat! A comedy handsake oh I don't know when you see all and sundry coming out of the gent's still fastening their Fly's after not washing their hands. What about a Funny Walk?

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: Tyke
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 12:28 PM

There's more just like the Funny Walk you did at Saltburn after falling over my Guitar Case!

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 12:37 PM

Coming out eh Dave :-)

Well done you little devil.

Now there was me thinking you were a MoorleyMan, whereas you are really a KidMan.

Why the hell do you need to apologise?

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 12:41 PM

you see all and sundry coming out of the gent's still fastening their Fly's

Oi - do you mind!

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: Tyke
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 12:51 PM

Wednesday 6th April 2011

CONFLICT!

Presented by

David Kidman & Jim Saville

An examination of conflict in folk music and rhyme

£3.50 members, £4.50 non members

Along with our resident artists. Floor Singers Always Welcome

TONIGHTS PUBLICITY FROM THE MOORLEY FOLK CLUB!

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 01:18 PM

I could use my real name but then noone would know who I was :)

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: breezy
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 01:18 PM

just landed and read this thread

Well done M Man

and for those who are darn sarf and west of London may I draw your attention to

Tomorrow Thursday 7th April at Maidenhead folk club , their famous, biennial song writing competition

previous winners include Les Sullivan - twice,   and Moses the catter

there are 14 entries

be there before it starts to qualify to vote

Previous participants who've placed in the top 3 include George Papavgeris and Chris Flegg

Some real gems have been found in this little seam of song

This is a blatant high jack by me

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: Cllr
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 01:22 PM

I think i may start using my name as i have been signing off with it for a while I will have a word with the poers that be

Cllr aka Mike gibson

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 02:02 PM

I've been using my real name at Mudcat since January, 1997. Trouble is, some people can't believe that "Joe Offer" is a real name....

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: johncharles
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 02:11 PM

I have no problem whatever with any performer plugging their own gigs, in whatever manner they choose to do it. The issue for me was MoorleyMan's response, to my perhaps somewhat clumsy criticism of his singing, (not the songs which were well chosen). This was presented as coming from a member of the audience not the artist himself; which I did find problematic. Other personal attacks I condemn as strongly as others have done. His apology has been quick and honest.
I took some time considering this response, as more and more I become aware of the perils of information technology, which can suck one in to ill thought out, rapid reactions to comments, never a good idea.
John Charles Platt

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 02:22 PM

I think that honesty in identity is essential in maintaining the trust we Mudcatters have in earch other. I'm not completely sure that I would recommend that all Mudcatters use their own name - that's your choice. There are a number of Mudcatters who are reasonably well-known performers, who use pseudonyms as their user names - and I think that's a good idea. I'm thinking of people like kendall, anglo, DebC, and many others. In general, regular Mudcatters know who these people are, but still they have some protection because their full name is not what appears in the "from" box.
Dave, I might suggest that if could be better for you to keep posting as "MoorleyMan," and have me close off the David Kidman membership. Your identity as "MoorleyMan" is already well-established here. Why drop it? You might consider posting as Moorley Man, but then signing your posts with "Dave Kidman" at the end when appropriate.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: treewind
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 02:26 PM

I know Dave Kidman, but I didn't know he was "Moorley Man" either.

I'd use my own name on Mudcat, but somebody else got there first.

Anahata
(my real name!)

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: GUEST,bradfordian
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 02:44 PM

Good on yer Dave,hope to see you at Cleckheaton FF, and can I put in a request for you to sing "Lies" please?

bradfordian (aka Barrie)

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 02:58 PM

whoops! no pun intended Dave, honest!

bradfordian

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: stallion
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 03:12 PM

Have I missed something? c'mon there is always a bit of banter we we love ya really!   Re Miss daisy, un called for didn't catch all but the first few threads and they were a bit catty, can't be doing with it me self.

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: C Stuart Cook
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 03:13 PM

Well done for having the wherewithall to come clean.

I guess I can live with an artist listing his gigs under a Mudcat handle. But would much prefer any advertising/listing to be in the artists own name. Not keen at all on a handle being used to review the artists own performance which was the case here. I presume Dave won't make the mistake again.

Handles/alter egos have been traditional on forums/boards since year dot and shouldn't really be any problem unless ........

The original comments, now removed, seemed to fall into two categories to my mind. One acceptable, the other not. A personal attack making allegations relating to morals, behaviour etc is way over the line. Comments relating to the performance, style, preferences are just going to be a hazard of putting your head above the trench. I'm sure that Dave's reviews must have annoyed an artist somewhere along the way, but if they don't want honest criticism they shouldn't have put in for a review. Same applies for the original MoorleyMan plug and subsequent review.

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 03:25 PM

I'd use my real name if I could remember what it is.

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 06:45 PM

Dave - all best wishes, whichever name you decide to use.

I originally joined Mudcat under my own name, then switched to one linked to the folk club I joined when still at school, which is still meeting every Monday except on bank or public holidays. This prompted another Mudcat member who knew me before I got married and changed my surname (and before he emigrated to the US), to get in touch.

Kitty

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 06:52 PM

"though I don't like signing in because I've had some bad PM experiences.
[SNIP]
PS - I think Trolls are figments of on-line folklore & some particular repulsive name-calling that goes on around here..."

So having been burned by Trolls thru PMs, this is the reason you now refuse to sign in as a member because you say you don't believe in them.

Most Illogical Captain!

:-)

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: Joe Nicholson
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 06:57 PM

Funny walks only begin towards the end of the evening and come with the confidence gained from a few drinks.
Joe Nicholson

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 07:02 PM

I prefer to use the handle I do, because I have used a form of it all over the net for years.

I've been burned by A*les in PMs, you just take it up with management. I've been roasted by A*les who found my real email (not hard really!) who them proceeded to render themselves liable for legal action by using that email. Needing a real email to send from, they then willfully brought the resultant storm down upon themselves.

With each having a member name one CAN try to sort out problems between 2 individuals 'offline' - as 'AnonTrolls' they are cleverly trying to avoid the consequences of what abuse (intentional or not) they post, including the substantial consequence of having their real world facade of 'Mr Nice' exposed by their real behavior. Like 'Did you know it is the cowardly Vicar who rings the doorbell at midnight, then runs away?" :-)

Robin

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: stallion
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 08:12 PM

Ha the reviews, nail on 'ed, having been on the recieving end of one it was annoyingly close to the mark and I wince at all the points that Dave probably winced at, probably get the crit of the latest offering.
Peter 2BS&S

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 09:13 AM

So, Mr Kidman, after your transgression I think that a period of reflection is in order, don't you? I also think that some form of penance may be appropriate - but what form that penance takes, I'll leave up to you.

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: GUEST,A reason for a pseudonym
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 09:36 AM

It's now 11 days since the cyberstalker last spewed his poison at my partner, 11 lovely, clean, silent days. And it's been going on for 2 years.

No, I'd don't join forums - even though I'd like to. No, I don't use my name. I don't do anything to draw attention to us or give him another place to attack.

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: breezy
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 09:47 AM

A weak singer misguidingly thinks that they can compenstae by singing 'show stopping' songs in the hope that the song carries them. To do so one ought to have some show stopping qualities as singers or the performance can be an embarrassment to all present.

Its when an ordinary song can be made to sound good is the mark of a true artiste

Often these 'power' songs are well known. It is often best to steer away from them and sing little known songs so no comparisons can be made.

Singing songs with choruses also serves to cover up ones weaknesses as often the audience will take the lead and as has been known to happen , carry the singer through.



In other words there are some singers who can make you cringe because they honestly think they can sing and in our field this is tolerated as a result some dont get the message


here endeth the observations of one John Breeze

who ?

self opinionated failed folk singer turned busker and will never work in the diplomatic field of life and has come to terms with it, oh and one time folk club organiser 6 years - who only made one mistake when booking a guest !

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: nutty
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 10:20 AM

Guest
Whether there is a good reason or not - posting as an anonymous guest is not helping.
It only leaves the door open for other anonymous guests.

The thing that is missing from this thread is a dose of commom sense.

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 11:07 AM

So having been burned by Trolls thru PMs, this is the reason you now refuse to sign in as a member because you say you don't believe in them.
Most Illogical Captain!

These people weren't Anon Trolls though - they used their real names or else were well known to me; and it wasn't to burn me as such; some attempted to win my favour or get me along side... Not all I hasten to add; I've had some great PM experiences, just the odd one or two that have soured the experience rather.

One time I was publicly attacked on open forum, and the culprit would only apologise via PM, which typifies what I'm on about.

The other thing is, is that I have to sign in every time, which is just hassle, so I only sign if I want to post more than the one link, and if people have PMd me meanwhile then fair enough.

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: GUEST,A reason for a pseudonym
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 11:32 AM

Excuse me, Mr, Nutty, but is that your real name?

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 11:35 AM

Guest,ARFAP, the idea is to use a consistent name, a "handle". Whether you use your REAL name isn't an issue most of the time.

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: stallion
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 01:49 PM

Just to let everyone know, although I have Pm'd dave to tell him, I found his crit of our stuff remarkably accurate although it took me a while to hear it myself. The bummer is, on the strength of that, i would like to go back and do it again! So if I missled anyone into believing otherwise than I apologise
Peter

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: Wullie
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 04:48 PM

Hi Dave,
          I know the ideal penance for you. Come to our folk club at Wrenthorpe as soon as you can I always enjoy your perfomances as do most of the club .
   Billy Martin

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: GUEST,ARFAP
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 05:15 PM

Jeri   The point I was making is that people at the head of the thread seemed to take the attitude that there is something wrong if people don't use their real names.

There can sometimes be a good reason for lying low, and no, I don't like it and I don't like having to do it.

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 05:54 PM

"One time I was publicly attacked on open forum, and the culprit would only apologise via PM, which typifies what I'm on about."

Ah! So just publish the apology in the original thread... ;-)

Some people seem to have a delusion that some special 'right of privacy' exists for PMs and emails - A certain little potty mouth here thought he could do that to me via PMs after pressure on him to stop that in open threads - boy did he scream about 'infringement of his privacy' when I published his foulness in an open thread - oh and the moderators tried to delete it, but I was able to post more often and more fast than they could delete it, till they got the hint. He finally left here soon after.

I'll happily publish such a private apology for public abuse, publicly.

They won't keep on playing THAT clever game once the word gets out Dear! :-)

But then having been trained for many years by absolute nasty a*s in the art of bullying, now when I walk thru the Valley of The Shadow of Evil, I fear none, as, thanks to them, I can now happily assume at any moment, without any long terms guilt, the Mantle of the Meanest Bastard in the Valley! Did study theater too, that helps...

:-)

All 'Niceness' is only a Social Veneer, scratch it hard enough for long enough, and it suddenly flakes away from everybody. Sadly.

Pick a constant id and stick to it - if you don't want it to be your real name, that's Fine.

Robin

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: Alan Day
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 06:32 PM

Well done David for sorting things out.
Welcome to the use your own name club.
Al

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 01:08 PM

Well David you and Jim were excellent on Wednesday at Morley Folk Club. I was amazed at how much work you and Jim had obviously put into preparing for the night. Two 45 minute sessions are not easy and needs much hard work to make it succeed as you both in my opinion did.
The choice of songs and poetry was well considered and the planning behind the flow from one to the next, spot on. The variety of authors and song writers kept me and I am sure the others present well entertained. There were some I knew and others I listened to for the first time.
There was even one from one of the contributors to this thread,George Papavgeris which I particularly enjoyed.
First time at the Morley Folk Club but it wont be the last. I liked the way I was welcomed, the singing and playing of all present and even got chance to sing a couple of songs myself.
It was truly a "folk night" and the way you both presented your material, with feeling was as it should be.
Dennis

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: Nick
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 06:58 PM

I think I'd apologise every month - it's great publicity.

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 02:45 AM

Cynic lol

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: stallion
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 04:43 AM

Obviously met Nick before! nice to see you the other week you owd rascal
Pete

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: Nick
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 05:25 AM

And good to see you too :)

I'm sure David will know I'm kidding

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: GUEST,Gloria
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 06:02 AM

A mini soap-opera - quite entertaining,and maybe even instructive once I can work out what the lessons might be! Maybe its just - dont get caught out.Self-promotion is everywhere - maybe less in the folk world than other forms of music,or literature - chat programmes on radio or tv are almost entirely filled by people plugging their latest book or whatever.Its all ever so slightly naff - but were told we have to do it.Otherwise we'd have to spend time getting so good at what we do that people would come to see us anyway - as I would say Nic Jones did (but almost no-one has since).
You sang well on thursday David - but if you go to Wrenthorpe again - better leave out the Fields of Athenry parody!Good to see you on here "Wullie"!

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: Shantyfreak
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 07:33 AM

This thread has been an interesting but not entertaining read.
Not having viewed the initial thread I cannot comment on that but I have known Dave both as Dave k and the Moorley man for years and know him as painfully honest. It comes as no surprise therefore to read what he said at the head of this thread.
As for those who ask/demand pennance I think that too has been done here.
But what about this business of using a "handle" as opposed to real names.
Who really cares?
We chose the "handle" we wish to be known by and it is usually unique. We are given our given names (naturally) and they are not unique. I'm Jimmy Saville and am suprisingly often mistaken in print for a certain older Yorkshire man. I am better known around the web as Shantyfreak and so that's what I use here and will continue to use to avoid similar confusion.
I know some of the people on this thread in real life (however they sign on here) and a few more by their "handle". The rest, however they sign themselves, are unknowns and might as well be anonymous. Does that bother me? No.
So lets all put down our sticks and stones, all pick up our rattles, and all have fun because IMHO that's what mud-cats are about; not fighting like alley-cats!
Jim
PS
Thanks for those comments from Dennis the Elder. Given what has been going on here I think conflict was an apt though unplanned title. >:)
Jim

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: Nick
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 01:02 PM

I don't think this is a thread about self promotion. It was a thread about promoting oneself in the third person. Andrew/Crane Driver expressed it in the other thread.

In the bigger scheme of things it's not very important.

Publicise yourself or get someone else to publicise you. But reviewing yourslf favourably in the third person is quite weird - and unnecessary. A lot of people know who you are/were and were probably surprised - it's why I contacted you (in a good natured way) privately.

I'm guessing the thread went wrong when you maintained the third person rather than saying 'I was just publicising me'.

No harm done.

You could perhaps be your own MC and introuce yourself in the third person and then come on and be the same (or different person - I'm confusing mself now) which would be quite entertaining and perhaps work itself up into an interesting act.

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: Nick
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 01:23 PM

Joe

>>I've been using my real name at Mudcat since January, 1997. Trouble is, some people can't believe that "Joe Offer" is a real name....

If you happened to have a wife and two children and came from sarf London - would you be "Joe and the free Offers"?

Enough to shut any fread that...

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: Pistachio
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 01:54 PM

If anyone wants confirmation: Nutty is one of the Hazels' on Mudcat and I am another! We used a nut name to stay close to the real thing!

Hazel Richings
Scot, living in Yorkshire
Half of Hissyfit!

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: stallion
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 02:59 PM

Oh, since we are all coming out, I am Peter Outhart, one third of Two Black Sheep & a Stallion, I was the one drinking "Stallion" the night we acquired the name, sadly the only qualification I have for the title/handle. BTW, nice to see Gloria in Mudcat.

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: r.padgett
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 02:54 AM

Just for the record I have followed both threads from the very start and have not posted here at all in my name or any other!

I wasn't at Barnsley folk club for the "hot spot" being unwell, but as is well known I have known David for some years

In my view singing accappella is not easy and takes many years to get anywhere and depends on what you have when you start and is independent of musical instruments ability etc

David has a very clinical understanding of songs and a clear view of English language as it is written and a masterly ability to cross reference songs, tunes and singers that have been recorded in reviews

He does make mistakes and some times makes assumptions which are not correct (I refer to some on reviewing my Cds, of course!)he is prone to over statement and emphasis on occasion and in doing so can cause offence. Reviewing is about an overview of what has been presented by the performer, who wants to sell his/her CD to listen to! Cds cost money to create!

David has been very keen to become accepted as a singer and a person, for it is that that folk song is about as well as the ability to sing the words as printed.

He is not blessed with a pefect singing voice, he needs to learn songs and not read from notes, he needs to sing the songs in and look at nuances and hopefully pass these feelings from the words and songs to his audience ~ he is aware of this but tends to do this to exaggeration, natural is preferred

The folk community takes a long time to accept people on occasion and if you stick out from the rest can put peoples backs up!

Hope this is fair!

Ray Padgett

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 06:15 AM

The folk community takes a long time to accept people on occasion and if you stick out from the rest can put peoples backs up!

Is that something to be proud of I wonder? It's certainly true though, quite shamefully so at times, but I don't suppose it's any different now to when the so-called Folk Community first came into being - i.e. sprung up overnight, and quite unchanging ever since, but that's its nature - to be as consevative as it is precious over its lack of provenance and, dare I say, tradition.

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: Tyke
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 09:29 AM

Hi Ray I tend to agree with most of what you wrote. I would only differ with " He is not blessed with a perfect singing voice ". I have heard Dave sing a French Sea Chantey in French. He sang it so well I wanted to complement him on his rendition of it. But Dave was at the end of the night all over the Guest Like a Rash trying to Blag a CD to review so I did not get the chance.

I have thought about Dave the possible reasons for the marked difference in his delivery of this song. I came to the conclusion that Dave had actually as you pointed out learned this song and because he was concentrating on its French Pronunciation, it stopped him from, singing with his mouth closed this is what normally restricts his voice. As you were pointing out Ray singing from a Book unless you hold it very high causes singers to restrict their voice and transmit it down into the carpet. The Carpet on other obstructions does tend to kill the tonal qualities of ones voice. Singer not reading from a book is also able to make eye contact with the audience and to add some feeling to their song.

Please think about my last comment, everyone!, as nobody could say that Bob Dylan has or had a great singing voice without the feelings, passion and belief in what he sings.
George Clarke

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: DavidKidman
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 06:47 PM

Well, the dust has settled now, and I've had time for reflection. I've also been considering our esteemed Moderator Joe Offer's timely suggestion -

>>...that it could be better for you to keep posting as "MoorleyMan,"<< ...(since) >>Your identity as "MoorleyMan" is already well-established here....<<

I have decided on balance to take Joe's advice and reinstate my MoorleyMan handle, while keeping the own-name membership open in parallel (for the time being, at least).
This action can do no harm now that there is no secret about my ID. I'm not ashamed of it, nor do I have anything to hide.

Thanks to all for their useful comments.

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: Nick
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 07:20 PM

And I have decided to become Furious Bandersnatch

Subject: RE: David Kidman: An Apology
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 10:40 AM

"And I have decided to become Furious Bandersnatch"

Wasn't the Bandersnatch Frumious?