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BS: Bullying

GUEST,Patsy 09 May 11 - 08:24 AM
Ed T 09 May 11 - 07:22 AM
mg 09 May 11 - 01:17 AM
GUEST,DonMeixner 08 May 11 - 11:20 PM
Penny S. 08 May 11 - 03:33 AM
LadyJean 07 May 11 - 11:17 PM
GUEST,mg 07 May 11 - 04:37 PM
GUEST,mg 07 May 11 - 04:32 PM
Jim Dixon 07 May 11 - 11:46 AM
GUEST,Folkiedave 07 May 11 - 09:22 AM
Joe Offer 06 May 11 - 06:18 PM
ollaimh 06 May 11 - 02:20 PM
maple_leaf_boy 24 Apr 11 - 04:19 PM
ollaimh 24 Apr 11 - 04:05 PM
Teribus 12 Apr 11 - 04:39 PM
Stringsinger 12 Apr 11 - 03:34 PM
GUEST,Eliza 12 Apr 11 - 03:04 PM
Penny S. 12 Apr 11 - 02:34 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 12 Apr 11 - 11:11 AM
GUEST,Eliza 12 Apr 11 - 11:06 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 12 Apr 11 - 09:08 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 12 Apr 11 - 09:00 AM
Penny S. 12 Apr 11 - 08:34 AM
GUEST,Eliza 12 Apr 11 - 08:10 AM
Penny S. 12 Apr 11 - 08:05 AM
GUEST,Eliza 12 Apr 11 - 07:54 AM
banjoman 12 Apr 11 - 07:23 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 12 Apr 11 - 03:56 AM
GUEST,Patsy 12 Apr 11 - 03:43 AM
GUEST,999 12 Apr 11 - 03:13 AM
Teribus 12 Apr 11 - 01:58 AM
GUEST,Eliza 11 Apr 11 - 02:00 PM
Stringsinger 11 Apr 11 - 01:29 PM
Penny S. 11 Apr 11 - 05:28 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 11 Apr 11 - 04:53 AM
ollaimh 10 Apr 11 - 09:33 PM
GUEST,999 10 Apr 11 - 07:58 PM
GUEST,999 10 Apr 11 - 06:24 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 Apr 11 - 06:01 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 Apr 11 - 05:52 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 10 Apr 11 - 05:47 PM
peregrina 10 Apr 11 - 05:40 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 Apr 11 - 05:34 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 10 Apr 11 - 05:21 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 Apr 11 - 12:38 PM
The Sandman 10 Apr 11 - 12:30 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 Apr 11 - 12:08 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 10 Apr 11 - 11:53 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 10 Apr 11 - 11:35 AM
Jeri 10 Apr 11 - 10:54 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 09 May 11 - 08:24 AM

I was at the receiving end of bullying in Primary school but it was solved and the girl in question's mother invited me to tea and some other event and then on a regular basis. It did work in that case. The girl's parents were divorcing at that time, it was in the 60's and not as commonplace as now but I realise it must have been a confusing time for her back then. Can it be solved if both parents of the bully and victim co-operate more like this today? For the record when we later met again both of us due to leave our Secondary schools she turned out to be such a nice girl. I appreciate it might not be as simple as that in every case.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Ed T
Date: 09 May 11 - 07:22 AM

Ali G demonstrates bullying

:)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: mg
Date: 09 May 11 - 01:17 AM

I have seen so ;much idiocy in schools around this particular issue that I just can't work in them. Perhaps everything has changed, but Seattle schools in the 1980s were such hotbeds of abuse and kids picking on each other and principals and teachers looking the other way. I would report stuff and they would give some inane response. I should have gone straight to police in some cases. Things are probably better now but they were repositories of bullying and enabling and lack of responsibility. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 08 May 11 - 11:20 PM

My sons were bullied to and from school everyday. They were told by the school teacher and principal that if they fought back they would be kicked out of school for a week. I told them to enjoy their vacation every chance they got.

The bullying stopped shortly after that.

D


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Penny S.
Date: 08 May 11 - 03:33 AM

Something that has bothered me recently has been the description of certain bullying activities as "hate crime" which is therefore supposed to get more immediate and effective support from the police. The cases in the news have been bullying of the disabled, both physically and mentally different from others. While I think that the recent cases have been appalling - one led to the suicide of a mother who killed her daughter in order to escape - there is an implication that if there is an obvious reason for the abuse, such as disability, religion or race, the bullying is worse, and therefore demands more action. So if someone suffers from neighbour abuse for no obviously labelable reason, they might not expect support from the police as readily as those with a recognised reason for the "hate".

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: LadyJean
Date: 07 May 11 - 11:17 PM

i was bullied in grade school. I kicked one of the little creeps in the groin. It didn't stop him, or any of the other little creeps.

I know several of them were the offspring of small time crooks. I'm afraid I enjoyed reading about one little guttersnipe's family going to jail. They didn't do it all at once. Mom worked for the city and got caught with her hand in the till. Pop owned a bar, and thought liquor laws applied to someone else. Grandpa was a fence. They were nice, respectable, middle class people. Who thought the law applied to someone else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 07 May 11 - 04:37 PM

It must be defined by society and the law that there are no "allowable" groups to bully or oppress..that means no bullying women, men, fat people, veterans, smaller, uglier, Protestants, those who have bullied your group in the psst, minorities or majorities. Part of bullying is instinctive and has to be restrained. I do not believe for one minute that children have to be taught it. They are naturals at it and it is a survival instinct. It has to be pointed out to them and there have to be consequences and there has to be surveillance of children. There also needs to be survieillance of places where teens congregate, push each other around, threaten each other, steal lunches, etc. Lots of nanny cams on street poles. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 07 May 11 - 04:32 PM

Teach them four words..hey knock it off and tell them to use it unless there is severe physical violence possible as a result.

Do not give free passes to people who are presumed to never be bullies, and that means many women, including mothers, wives, live ins, supervisors, coworkers etc. Be prepared to leave any bullying relationship, including that with parents, adult children, spouses. Oh but I love him. Too bad. If you stay with someone who is abusive because you love him, and you are keeping children hostage, you are part of the abuse period. If you are terrified for your life if you leave, that is a different story. You have to leave, you have to have protection, and he might (or she might) actually be successful in their threats. Try really hard not to get in those relationships, leave before you have children, get restraining orders. Do not make excuses for them. Do not believe them when they say theywill get help, change etc..let them do that first, be sober and nonviolent for a long period of time and probably maintain separate living quarters forever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 07 May 11 - 11:46 AM

From the link that Folkiedave provided:
Gunsalus distinguishes between traditional, assertive bullies, who throw their weight around with bluster and force, and 'victim bullies,' who use claims of having been wronged to gain leverage over others.(pp. 123-4) Unlike simple passive-aggression, victim bullies use accusations as weapons, and ramp up the accusations over time. Unlike a normal person, who would slink away in shame as the initial accusations are discredited, a victim bully lacks either guilt or shame, honestly believing that s/he has been so egregiously wronged in some cosmic way that anything s/he does or says is justified in the larger scheme of things. So when the initial accusations are dismissed, the victim bully's first move is a sort of double-or-nothing, raising the absurdity and the stakes even more.
Yes, that description sounds familiar.

The funny thing is, in many of the arguments I see at Mudcat, the description fits people on both sides of the argument.

Case in point: In the first version of the "Zen" story, no-one is a victim, but the second version reframes it so that the disciples are portrayed as victims of the strange malicious "creature."

How do you get people to stop thinking of themselves as victims? It's one of the great mysteries of the age.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,Folkiedave
Date: 07 May 11 - 09:22 AM

http://suburbdad.blogspot.com/2006/10/victim-bullies.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 May 11 - 06:18 PM

Sometimes, the behavior of Mudcatters appalls me. We have a number of people who post here who may not fit into the conventional standards of human behavior. I think that psychologists might say that they suffer from Borderline Personality Disorder. They may not fit into the conventions of behavior; but they're still human beings, and they still have worthwhile things to say. We do what we can to keep these people under control without smothering them, but that's not good enough for some Mudcatters. Sometimes, they gang up and repeatedly bully the individual until they drive that person away, tailing the poor scapegoat like a pack of hounds. Occasionally, the bullies act like they're the martyrs, that they're oppressed by the misfit. I find that hard to believe.


A Mudcatter sent me this in a personal message, and gave me permission to post it. I think it teaches a good lesson:
    I see the thread "More than a little fed up" has disappeared. Too bad;
    I was working on a long message that I meant to add to that thread. I
    put so much work into it, I am reluctant to throw it away. Please read
    this and tell me what you think I should do with it.
    *
    Here's a story I heard long ago. I'm retelling it from memory, so it's
    probably not exactly the way I heard it:

    A Zen master was sitting with his disciples, leading them in guided
    meditation.

    A bird flew in through an open window. Someone moved to shoo the bird
    away, but this only frightened the bird, which then became
    disoriented, and it was unable to find the window to fly out again. It
    flew around vainly trying to escape, fluttering from one corner of the
    room to the next, near the ceiling. Some of the disciples thought,
    "This is disturbing our meditation. We ought to do something." So they
    got up and tried to catch the bird. They failed to catch it, and only
    made it more agitated. The poor bird flew around in a state of panic,
    crashing into walls and furniture.

    Finally the master said, "Everyone sit down and be quiet. Leave the
    bird alone."

    The disciples obeyed, reluctantly, because they couldn't believe they
    were going to accomplish anything that day, due to the disturbance.

    Exhausted, the bird landed on the back of a chair. It sat there
    quietly for a while, and then flew to the top of a bookshelf. Then it
    flew again and landed on the windowsill.

    At this point, the master clapped his hands abruptly, and the bird
    flew out the window and was not seen again.

    [Then the master summed up the experience with some pithy comment, but
    I am unable to remember what the comment was. I guess you'll have to
    figure it out for yourself.]


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: ollaimh
Date: 06 May 11 - 02:20 PM

now i do wish to say that american folkies are no where so difficult as anglo canadians and english. when a decent musician shows up with new songs from a culture they don't know well they mostly want to listen. so please don't mistake me.

i remain astonished how racist towards the irish maost english remian. i didn't understand what they were talking about when i was young--that's when i bothered to go to english folk clubs. they used to say that the irish starved in the famine becaue they didn't know enopgh to eat fish even though the while island was surrounded by water. ignoring the presence of british soldiers for nine hundred years talking all the best land from the natives. tjat's pure nazi style revisionist history. if you talked back a little common sense they would octracise you. here on mudcat there were a line up of crypto fascists justifying the killing of peacefull protestors on bloody sunday--as though there is no conection between the british army killing irish civilians and nine hundred years of military colonialism. americans don't often do that.at least not ones aginst the confederacy.

however the next time i get"oh we know those songs" from some toronto or vancouver alglo i think i'll scream, because they probably have never actually heard them the way we actually play them. they were mostly not played in imitation ewan macoll and pete seager fashion.

now i'm old and don't much care. because when i want to play i can find an audience anywhere. i do decent professional renditions of traditional nova scotia and new foundland music and people love it, so i don't need the wednesday night stage for an ego boost.

i used the call the vancouver folk song society the wednesday might all stars. terrible musician after terrible musician, and they would rig the line up soo thaqt only the politically conected got to play. the last times i tried i was the first or second person to sign up to play for fout weeks in a row and didn't get on. they claimedit was an accident. ut their regulars never missed a night. again in the united states they like new musicians showing up and will bump people to hear something different.

in toronto they have folk get together. where yopu ave to |know someone to find out where it is. i got invited while busking or doing gigs but rarely had the might off. the few times i had the night off i phoned and was told, by the guy who invited me--he apparently forgot manners or his own invite--that they can't have strangers showing up. the one time i found out where it was and waqs finished busking and a gig that day before eight o'clock. i got to the door with my harp and bouzouki in a cart. the guy at the door told me they didn'tallow street beggars. he thought i was homelesws because of the cart. there was a woman in their with a harp twice the size of mine(i busk with a ds fh26--very portable) but i couldn't be allowed in. i don't argue any more i juts headed back to the subway--there was an empty spot nearb. after a few minutes apparently it was tqalked about and two guys came chasing after me--i'm not very fast with a cart and a cane and my bad legs. they wereas apoligetic as alglo torontoiand get i supose but i was insulted and i told them so. when ever i would see those bigots while bisking i would sing my own version of merrsheen durkin or somethin like that.

goodbye meersheen durkin(goodbye nova scotia)
i'm sick and tired of working(i'm sick and tired of pogey)
no more i;ll dig the pratties
no longer i'll be fooled.

as sure me name is parenteau
i'mm off to old toronto
where i'll dig no more the pratties
i'll be digging lumps of gold

or in vancouver

as sure as me name is hoover
i\m off to old vancouver
where down at the sea buss station
i\ll be digging lumps of gold


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 04:19 PM

I've had similar experiences to your's Ollaimh. The part about the names really struck a chord with me. A lot of people have given me a
hard time about my name as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: ollaimh
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 04:05 PM

people ave alked here about facing and fighting the bully, and that's been done by me--when i wad younger i had morew bruised and contusions than i had brains , as a friend of mine put in a song. however, in my experience in the adult folk world thats it for you. a bully can get away with any kind of race and ethnic taunt but if you face em dowen or offer to fight here and nwo, my experience is the whole crowd then ostracises you. i speaking of england and anglo canada, in the us folkies aren't as class bigoted and want to hear "new " celtic songs(i have an extensive repitoire of nova scotia and new foundland songs that they often haven't heard down in the us. but vancouver folk circle and toronto folk circle if you defend yourself your demonized as a "mad man" .

all st the same time i was playing full time professionally and for fun with portuguese greek, and a little arabic music communities--all of whom only cared to hear great fun music. the anglo folkies seem to establish a pecking order and complex rules--that they don't tell you about. and call it ettiquette or good manners, and if you don't know them then the talent free can get rid of the annoying talented musicians. in toronto and vancouver they had "official" nova scotia. newfoundland or acadien musicians", all not from those cultures. they hated to see some one like me from franco gaelic culture. now it took me years to realize this. but the same thing happened over and over done by the "official"folkies.

and making fun of someones name is about as low as it gets without violence--and thats happened on mudcat--i had a guy--jim ladd--making fun of me useing a gaelic handle. he pretended he was "steeped" in cape breton culture. and knew no gaelic, nor evern recognized gaelic when he saw it. and on that thread few saw his attack and slurs as wrong.my birth cetificate and baptismal certifivaqte are diffewrenct--very long story. i get really tyired of people looking at my baptismal certificate name JEAN and saying thats a girls name. my birth c says john. that sort of thing was routine when i was young and not as rare now as i'd like to see. equally making fun of a gaelic handle or a tirtured english translation of a french last name(i got one) its sleazy, it shouldn't happen in the folk world, but it does and those who do it all come from one ethnic group. most anglos have a powerfull sense of entitlement and demand preferentiasl treatement where ever they go. that gets raw and in your face busking. there are a few nutty immigrants out busking but generally the immigrants cooperate. in tyoronto especially, the anglos arte constantly demanding special treatment. they don't think its special, they just don't understand why we don't get the f.... out of their way. in the ttc they had a buskers united group that licked out most of the immigrants--for raising issues around the use of threats against other musicians. they spent teir time discussing setting upo "rules" essentially so they wouldn't have to do what every body else does--talk as equalls to each other.

then christamass would come and they wouldn't understand how i keep getting such good spots. well over the years i helped those who cooperated with me--and they helped me in return. but the anglo buskers help no one outside their ethnic and social group. and never believe that their friends would ever threaten anyone.

i found this when i busked in london as well. the french and gypsies would cooperate the english would tell you to f... off. when i was young i went west to work in mining and drilling, again all the immigrants and the eastern canadians had to band together. we had to fistfight to keep our jobs or hang in a group to avoid the bullying--then the anglos would get pissed thast we were a gang. dammed if you do and dasmmed oif you don't. luckily there are quite a few easterners and quebecers out there in drilling miningand blasdting and all they cared about was getting the job done ans getting the bonuses so i could get work there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 04:39 PM

"If Obama says he is opposed to bullying then tell him to stop occupying Afghanistan and bring those troops home. Same with Iraq. He has no moral standing as long as he is conducting a foreign policy that bullies other nations or the people in them." - Stringsinger

Well it all started during the Presidency of William Jefferson Clinton, was continued during the Presidency of George Walker Bush and has continued during the Presidency of Barack Hussein Obama. So let us take a look at what all this "Bullying" has accomplished:

1: Iraq
Taking the period 1979 - 2003 and comparing it to 2003 - 2011 the daily average death toll of civilians has been reduced by 87%.

Per capita income has increased from US$507 to over US$3,000

Sanctions have been lifted and the country is thriving in terms of trade and oil/gas exports. You have "revolutions" in Tunisia; Libya; Egypt; Syria; Bahrain & in the Yemen. No protests or trouble in Iraq

2: Afghanistan
Taking the period 1978 - 2001 and comparing it to 2001 - 2011 the daily average death toll of civilians has been reduced by 97%

5,000 children in fulltime education in September 2001, over 8 million in fulltime education today.

The infrastructure of the country is being rebuilt instead of being destroyed. Massive foreign investment is helping in creating industries. The country's first railway is being built. The changes are dramitic and all to the ultimate long term benefit of the people, the country, the nation and the region.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 03:34 PM

If Obama says he is opposed to bullying then tell him to stop occupying Afghanistan and bring those troops home. Same with Iraq. He has no moral standing as long as he is conducting a foreign policy that bullies other nations or the people in them.

So far, his foreign policy has offered the same justifications that are aforementioned
with regard to bullies on the school ground.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 03:04 PM

I agree, Penny. Self-justification goes on into adulthood and among nations. "We were 'just' cleansing the country of..." etc. I have heard of domestic violence perpetrators who say to their victims "Look what you made me do to you!" These phrases and statements reveal that the bullies feel perfectly justified in their actions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Penny S.
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 02:34 PM

Bullying phrases, and my sort of response:

"It was just a joke..."      No it wasn't, and if you begin an excuse with it was just, I don't want to hear the rest.
"It was only a joke..."      As above.
"He can't hack it..."       Why should he have to?
"He can't take it..."       As above.

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me." If your victim chooses to say that, fine, but it's not for you to say. Broken bones mend quite fast, but the words can go on for years and years until people are adults. I still remember the Hearty Jokers club and how miserable they made me. Making me miserable was the joke.

"Finders keepers, losers weepers."   That phrase does not make it OK to make the losers weep, it's still theft if you know who it belongs to. Do you want to make people cry? (Not to be used if this is the sort of child who does!)

Those sort of phrases really make me angry - along with "I was only, I was just...)

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 11:11 AM

They sound rather lovely, Eliza. :0)   

I made an error earlier, as all of this happened in Secondary School, not Primary as I said at the beginning of my post. It was in the 2nd year, as it used to be called back then...Year 9 now, I think...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 11:06 AM

I agree Penny, to go round to someone's house because their little girl copied a colour is almost psychotic!
Isn't it interesting that a lot of us on this thread remember with horrible clarity instances when we were cruelly bullied, even decades after the events, and even though we are now adults. It shows how the scars run very deep, and possibly damage one for life. Bullying IS serious and harmful.
Lizzie, your twin friends remind me of two girls who became my constant companions during Grammar School. They were both immensely fat and jolly, almost like twins in looks, and both called Susan. My two Susans were excellent bodyguards and protectors, but we must have looked extremely funny together, I was skeletally thin and tiny, they were massive and so fat! But thanks to them I felt very secure at school. No-one bullied us!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 09:08 AM

Michelle and Barack Obama's video on Bullying

It's good to hear them say they want to put a stop to the feeling that bullying is a form of 'rite of passage'. I agree with that totally. That belief has done more to prolong bullying than anything else, imo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 09:00 AM

During a test in primary school, I once put my arm around my work, as the girl next to me was copying. I could see the teacher watching, so I knew she'd get into trouble, probably me as well.

For that I suffered 2 years of hell.

She managed to convince every child in my form to ignore me completely, pass me by, not look at me, not speak a word to me.   In private, on their own, some kids would sidle up to me and tell me they *did* actually like me, but were afraid of Jane.

I learnt a lot in those 2 years. I learnt to stand outside 'the group' for a start, and watch how one person controlled so many others. I learnt about hypocrisy, about people who really didn't matter one iota to me, at the end of the day, for they had no empathy about my feelings.

I learnt that being alone was actually pretty darn good, because there was no one to hurt you, judge you, get others against you, even if it was so often very lonely.

I learnt that I loved animals far more than I loved human beings, because animals never went out of their way to hurt you, indeed, they could somehow sense when you needed a friend, giving you such love when it was needed so badly.

I became very indifferent to all those folks, when they finally decided, after Jane had left to go to another school, that they'd try to be friends with me again. I learnt about folks who take your trust, your friendship, your loyalty, then screw it up and stamp on it.

I learnt what a terrible thing bullying is, how it lasts, stays with people for a very long time...and how callously indifferent so many people are to the deep damage it so often causes.

All the knowledge I gained back then has remained with me throughout my life.

When I see bullying, I wade in there to stop it, to show the bullies up, to stand fast and hard against them, because I have been the person on the end of vicious remarks, or total silence..and I know how it feels.

And....I think that many people who've been severely bullied as children actually turn into Great Grown-Ups because they're so often very kind and empathetic.

I often wonder if the people who chose to stand with Jane ever think about what they did, how they behaved, if they caused any damage, hurt or something far worse.

I'm very proud that I never bullied a soul when I was at school..and I got more love from the school rabbit than I did from many of my peers.

Things got better for me when two girls arrived in the 4th Year. They were twins. Not just twins, but the most beautiful twins you could imagine with faces and bodies to die for. Needless to say, the girls hated them, the boys loved them..and they found life very hard to start with. We all shared a birthday, and I ended up befriending them pretty fast, because I could see how upset they were with the frosty frozen reception they'd got from other girls. We remained really good friends throughout the rest of school and for a while beyond too...but then each of us went our separate ways.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Penny S.
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 08:34 AM

It's the mother's reaction that appalled me! The copying reaction from Julie wasn't a surprise. Many's the time I've had to explain that in primary school, copying doesn't diminish the originator's work, and that anyway, teacher's usually know it's been done, and by whom.

Mind you, when an adult complains that his plagiarism is OK because it's fair practice to rehash work delivered in a lecture to a local astronomy society without attribution, and that he's being unfairly accused with bizarre accusations aimed by a sniper a long way off... Ooops, I ought to attribute that phrase, but I won't... copying becomes a different issue.

But a colour...!

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 08:10 AM

Exactly, Penny. But as an adult and looking back with more insight, I remember that Julie had two very glamorous older twin sisters called Odelle and Odette, both nurses. I wonder now if the darling Julie felt sidelined by these blonde bombshells and it made her over-react. Not an excuse, but maybe a reason!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Penny S.
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 08:05 AM

The little girls seem to have been brought up with a sense of entitlement, so it is no surprise when mothers rush to defend their princesses.

Copying a colour worth going round in anger??!! Oh my goodness words fail me maybe I should use the technique Diane Wynne Jones used in Wilkin's Tooth and use colours to say what one earth the purple orange magenta was she thinking!!!

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 07:54 AM

It's interesting how parents of bullies often rush to the defence of their 'innocent' little darlings. A girl called Julie once buried her fingernails up to the hilt in my face because I'd coloured a picture in my exercise book in the same colours as HER picture. My mother was horrified when I got home (I was eight years old at the time) She was even more horrified when Julie's mother arrived at the door, red with anger. Julie was 'upset' about the 'copying'. Even when shown my multi-punctured face and the blood, she continued to rant at my poor mother. Finally, (my mum was Irish, and had a cut-off point with regard to temper) my mother exploded and terrified the woman, who fled. I've seen this often with parents of my pupils, they can't imagine their darlings as anything but wee angels. I have to add, I was the most timid, skinny and inoffensive little thing in the school, and certainly not one to start trouble!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: banjoman
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 07:23 AM

My own experience suggests that bullies dont stop until they are confronted with some of their own medicine. I was constantly bullied by 2 brothers when I was about 10 to the extent that I avoidedwalking down our road as I had to pass their house. One day i just happened to have my cricket bat with me when they started. Suffice to say that they never bullied me again However their parents came to our house to complain that I had "Attacked" their sons. Short shrift given by my mum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 03:56 AM

I'm sure many old folks get bullied in so-called Care Homes too, Patsy....sadly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 03:43 AM

There was another form of disturbing bullying that I read about a few weeks ago and it was on the news and in the paper about vulnerable elderly people being targeted, preyed on and raped in their home. Apart from being an horrendous crime it must be the lowest kind of bullying ever, although all forms is hell enough for the victim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 03:13 AM

Teribus, despite that we have not always agreed, I have respected you and understood from whence you came. You are an honest and good man.

Few here have ever known you as you really are: a tough and gentle person at once with a smart way of thinking of life. I loved you then, and I love you now, Reuben James.

Bruce


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 01:58 AM

Bullying at school as far as it affected me ended in the same way as for kendall and Guest999. Never bullied at primary school, it started when I went to the senior or high school. A group of four and I took some right pastings, but each time I learned a little bit more and each time it got harder for them. A couple of them felt tempted to have a go on their own and then they in turn got the shock of their lives, I was never bullied again.

Someone stated further down this thread that the Police in the UK will pick on the person who reacts. This is incorrect, the Police in effect are simply doing their jobs and following procedure. Straight from the "horse's mouth" this is what I have been told by Police Officers whenever this is discussed (People breaking and entering, people causing criminal damage to your property, personal assaults), if you as a citizen have resorted to physical violence in order to protect either yourself or your property of course you will be questioned, there are after all as many sides to the story as there are participants and witnesses. The one phrase that you must use is that you considered that you used "reasonable force". The second you mention that phrase it is entered in the copper's note book and that is you off the hook. The policeman's own opinion is meaningless and irrelevant after all he was not there. It comes down to your word against the person who has:

1: Broken into your house (Poor ground he shouldn't be there)
2: Damaged your property (The damage is there in plain sight for all to see, you have a reason for being on the scene the perpetrator has not, again he is on poor ground)
3: Assault (Well witnesses will atest to the fact that it wasn't you who was throwing your weight about)

So remember the phrase "Officer the situation was this, etc, etc, and I used what I considered to be reasonable force to protect myself against what I considered a real threat"


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 02:00 PM

I've observed many parents being bullied by their children recently! I certainly wouldn't say that many parents in UK are totally in control of their offspring. But I agree there are a few cruel and repressive adults around who may bully children. I would say that most bullying comes from peers, at school, in the street and online. And from 'colleagues' at work. In comparison, parental bullying isn't as common. But that's just a personal opinion, not backed up with data.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 01:29 PM

Bullying has been institutionalized for many years by religious groups.
Children are regularly abused psychologically and physically for their
"rebellious" questioning of their parent's insanity.

"Spare the rod and spoil the child" is not in the Bible but from Dr. Johnson.
Still it is used as a device for bible reference by parents to bully children.

Children learn to be abused by their parents, siblings, teachers, and other authority figures. Do you wonder why it is so rampant?

BTW what happens when one nation bullies another? Does this trickle down?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Penny S.
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 05:28 AM

I wonder if any of the anglo tendency to bully perceived by ollaimh is linked to school culture - or similar in German history. I spent some time in a private school where there was bullying, and a staff enforced culture that what happened at school stayed at school, and telling one's parents was sneaking and beneath contempt.

I was at the bottom. I was no good at games or ballet. I was a Day Girl, whose father was not in the local Chamber of Commerce. Day girls were lower than boarders. There were other subtleties subdividing the boarders. I was not aware of most of these distinctions, or any need to take account of them. I thought people were equal.

When I moved to the local Technical School, due to extracurricular activities by the school headmaster, I dreaded bullying because of having been somewhere posh and having a posh voice. Not a shred of it - people were equal, unless they behaved stupidly, judged on themselves not on some perceived status.

English society is riddled with this sort of rubbish. In private and public schools. In grammar schools which emulate them. In the class divisions which make it possible for the "upper" lot not to see those "below" them. Unless those inferiors do not recognise their place - when the bullying starts.

Not that it doesn't happen in other environments as well.

Years ago, I read a piece in the Guardian of all places, which I was gobsmackedly unable to respond to. The writer claimed that bullying at school was necessary so that people would learn their place in society for adult life, and people should learn to put up with it. I had a shrewd idea where the writer felt her place was. Not only I, but no-one picked up on this concept of human society requiring a pecking order to function. (My typing omitted the n in that word, and I almost left it.)

I wonder how much "putting people in their place", dealing with "uppity" folk of perceived lowly status, and demanding "respect" has to do with the problem, and whether this might be why authorities are slow to respond...afraid their own status may be threatened.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 04:53 AM

Thank you, Bruce. x

ollaimh, I'm sorry for the way you've been treated and hope that life is a little happier these days.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: ollaimh
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 09:33 PM

i grew up in a culture in rural nova scotia that didn't exactly prepare me for the nig bad world. there wasn't much bullying at the time. and people challenged nasty gossip and roughing others. regularily. so making my way beyond the ottawa river to anglo canada i was astonished by the reluctance to challenged natsy gossip--usually the kind of things that were obviously made up, and the tencdency to say thast anyone being pushed around physically must have done something.

so i am not surprised that the cops in the uk tend to ignore the attacker and go after those who react. i think there are long term social cultural reasons for this. the british empire and its philosophy of laissez faire capitalism and the american continuance of that attempt at worl dominance has militarizedthe angloworld. this is reflected in the extreme class discrimination and in the obeidence to authority. franco gaelic culture doesn't generally trust authority having grown up on the wrong end of the gun.

the issue i am trying to bring to the attention of all here is that there is a definate tendence among anglos to attack any diffderence and demonize it--this rarely happens in the non anglo communites i live in. here on mudcat my poor tyoing haqs been attacked--i have a couple of major handicaps and have a couple of languages. that bullying. an obvious difference must be attacked.

now as to the folk world i found the socail structure of the folk scene in canada beyond the ottawa river to be totally based on bullying. in the vancouver folk song society--the folk ss(some people have no self awareness), i spent years being harrassed for every little diference. they took my differences--which didn't seem a big deal to me--as a personal insult. i eventually got yhe message and gave up. they rigged the performance schedules so only the in crowd got to perform, they bad mouithed me and any other non anglo german(they have a germaic element--not too different on these issues from anglos), they used to attack any workinng class guy as obviously sexist--they were very well healled middle clas who had never struggled for a meal in their lives. they even organized movenment to expell people--a friend calls it the urge to purge, bulimia on the left. and waht a happy coincidence that all the people they drove out were jews or gaels!and working class jews or gaels at that!

so don't kid yourself. if you are criticizing some one in your folk group ask a few questions of your self as to whayt harm would occur if you left them alone.

in toronto i couldn't get in the front door of the folk groups. i was good enough to get an auditioned busking licence for twelve years but those who failed those same auditions kept the door of their folk get togethers shut. the anglo buskers were routinely threwtening and making homophobic remarks. if i had a dollar for every time i was called a frog fag by in crowd folkies out busking i'd have a hun dred bucks! (i have fench last name) . and they never belive the non anglo victims. in fact it is one of the ever present hallmarks of anglo society that they do not accept the experiences of non anglos, don't believe a word they say.

again bullying is the product of cultures. anglo cutlure is one of the most agressive and violent in history. they have made war in every corner of the globe. they do posture at being moral and ethical, but thats horse manure. look a little deeper.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 07:58 PM

Dang. All the scrapping going on and I neglected to wish you a Happy Birthday, Liz. It's past midnight in England, but not in Canada. I hope you had a wonderful day.

Bruce
    For many months, Mr. Gnomo and Ms. Cornish have not been allowed to address or respond to one another. They are incapable of carrying on a mature conversation with each other. For some reason, Mr. Gnomo decided to try to pick a fight today. His posts were deleted. Mr. Gnomo is hereby banned from this thread, and from all threads initiated by Lizzie Cornish.
    -Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 06:24 PM

Liz, meet my friend Dave. Dave, meet my friend Liz.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 06:01 PM

If anyone was to look up 'Dave Polshaw' on the internet you would find some interesting examples of 'me' and 'my family' in support of certain organisations to whom I hold no sympathies whatsoever. Likewise for other members of Mudcat, including dead ones!

As I said before. Annoying, yes. Hurtful, no.

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 05:52 PM

you are blaming targets for their vulnerability? Far from it, peregrina and I have said, on both discussions on bullying and other equaly distasteful topics, that victims cannot and must not ever be blamed. All I am saying is that there is a defence against bullies involving not letting them get to you. It would not work for everyone but some may consider it.

As far as cyber-bullying is concerned, I am simply posing the question of why - when someone finds a particular forum or chat room or whatever so offensive - do they keep visiting it? It is still not their fault that they are being bullied but keeping out of the buliies reach is one form of defence that I would consider.

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 05:47 PM

I can assure you that the knowledge that somewhere out there are fake pages, bearing your name, or photos, as many of us in here have to put up with on FB, is horrible, particularly when those pages purport us to be something we are not.

I can also assure you that young people who have similar fake pages, made in their names, or other pages made where their 'friends' sign up to shite all over them on the internet, cause GREAT distress. And the people concerned are told about these pages, even if they don't have computers, just to ensure that they know what's being said about them on the internet..

It's a shocking, and horrible, phenomenen (can't spell that)..It does great damage to those involved and it should be made a crime, to be honest, with a prison sentence involved, imo, because that would make people think twice before they think they have the freedom to do these things.

Just because it doesn't affect you, doesn't mean it does not affect others. It does. And some people it affects very, very deeply indeed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: peregrina
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 05:40 PM

David, it sounds to me-and forgive me if I haven't read all your posts as carefully as I should--as if you are blaming targets for their vulnerability?
   The world has all different kinds of people and I, for one, think vulnerability is an essential part of humanity.
    Some people are lucky to be thick-skinned, or to be able to ignore hurtful provocation, but not all are. And who would stand up against all kinds of injustice and dehumanizing treatment if those who were hurt did not make their voices heard?

I would like to hear more stories about how people have defeated bullies--thanks for those already posted...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 05:34 PM

I will simply repeat that I could not care less what anyone who means nothing to me says. Nothing on the internet has ever hurt me nor will it. Annoy me greatly, yes. Hurt me, no. A man a great deal wiser than me put it far better than I ever could.

If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you.
If all men count with you but none too much.


I am greatly puzzled by those who, knowing how hurt they will be if they view the forums that are 'bullying' them, keep going back to those forums as if in need of some sort of masochistic fulfilment. Schools cannot be avoided forever. Town centres are places that must occasionaly be visited. We cannot even bypass every dark and dangerous alley. But nothing could force anyone onto a chat room unless they wanted to visit it. Nor does anyone have to open any mail they don't want to. There is no reason whatsoever to keep visiting somewhere you dislike. So why do it?

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 05:21 PM

"...While a quick uppercut and really hurt an internet message can only hurt you if you let it...."



I disagree. Internet messages often hurt more. Why? Because lies and unpleasantness are left there for all to see, for a very long time. The bullying is not just amongst a few people in private who eventually move on from each other's lives. It is there for everyone to see, and many will read terrible untruths put down about a person, without ever knowing that person in real life, without never even knowing that the words printed about them are wrong, vile or complete and utter lies.

That is why it is SO important to either speak out against such posts, or else get them removed for ever.

When a person has an entire gang of people using them to while away their boredom, create 'a bit of fun', or to twist as many other minds against that person as possible, then it becomes a witch hunt, and that can be very sinister for the person involved...

Internet bullying can lead, and HAS led, to suicides in many people.

To know your bully is bad enough. To NOT know them, to have 'invisble' bullies appearing out of nowhere, can take any person to a very dark place....and when a whole gang of invisibles turn up and join together to chase their prey around the internet, it can be the most disturbing thing you can imagine, because those thoughts, those words, the lies, the insults written about a person, or his/her family can go deep inside their minds.

Don't EVER think that 'internet bullying' is OK, or that it will only affect people 'if they let it'....because I can tell you firsthand that the exact opposite is true. It affects you very badly indeed.


It is happening a great deal amongst young people, particularly those at school...and even President Obama is now speaking out against it.

Once, the bullying stopped when you got home, and you felt you had somewhere 'safe', sanctuary, a place where you could relax...Now the bullying goes on 24/7, in phone calls, in texts, on the internet..even with entire pages being created to bully someone, with the most despicable things imaginable being put down about them..

It is a major, major problem, and all internet site owners should be very aware of it, of the people who do it and how it can be stopped dead in its tracks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 12:38 PM

Like I said before though, Dick. That type of bullying can only get to you if you let it - Which I am sure you don't. While a quick uppercut and really hurt an internet message can only hurt you if you let it. If there is anything any of us can do to help though - Just ask.

Cheers

Dave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 12:30 PM

nobody ever bullied me even though i was the smallest in my class ,why because i took boxing lessons.
some kid decided to pick a playground fight with me, I got him quick with a left upper hook, no more trouble after that.
internet bullying is more difficult to cope with, and I have a persistent problem with someone who used to be a member of this forum


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 12:08 PM

I think that is pretty spot on, Shimrod. And, unfortunately, teachers cannot win whatever they seem to do so I have a lot of sympathy for their plight. If they see some petty teasing, should they let it go or risk being jumped upon by some parent who sees it as a excuse for their childs poor performance at school? It's a really tough and thankless job nowadays and one that I am glad I didn't go in to. The difference between petty teasing and bullying is plain to see provided that your view is not clouded by your own agenda.

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 11:53 AM

Bruce, you did great by your daughter! Walk softly but carry a big stick sometimes is the only path that can be taken!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 11:35 AM

I was a timid kid at school and was mildly bullied a few times. On a couple of occasions I hit the bully and the bullying stopped. I learned that violence can occasionally solve problems but, mercifully, that lesson didn't turn me into a violent person.

Early in my career I worked in a department which was full of some of the most likeable people that you could hope to meet. There was a fair amount fo silliness and even horseplay and a bit of mild teasing. I noticed, though, that some people couldn't seem to cope with even the mildest teasing and some of them even claimed that they were being bullied. One lad had a voice which sounded like a well known TV personality and someone once remarked on this. Instead of laughing it off he 'went ballistic'. This over-reaction seemed to trigger a counter-reaction in some people and, in consequence, he suffered more teasing than he would have done if he had laughed off the intial remark (which sounded quite innocuous to me and, in that department, 'par for the course').

In my next job I encountered some 'real' bullies - and because they were in senior management they caused me some problems - but that's another story.

It all goes to show that one man's bullying may be another man's silly teasing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 10:54 AM

I wrote: "There's the possibility of the person who's been bullied and found their strength then becoming a bully."
I'd followed that with "I didn't though, and it's probably because those of us who've been bullied really hate bullying and are vigilant" which isn't quoted.
Backwoodsman wrote: "I'd reckon it's unlikely. Certainly, in my case, having been the kid that was bullied, and knowing what a crock of shit it is to be a bully's victim, a bully was the last thing I wanted to be. I couldn't be that ugly - it was (and is) anathema to me."
So we're saying the same thing in different ways. The vigilance I mentioned meant I was concerned with not crossing that line between defense and antagonization in my own behavior. I was afraid of becoming what I hated. Perhaps the fact I was concerned about it meant it was unlikely to ever happen.

I believe some people don't worry about it, and they get even with the people who picked on them by picking on someone else. It's what they learn from being bullied.


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