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BS: Bullying
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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 12 Apr 11 - 09:08 AM Michelle and Barack Obama's video on Bullying It's good to hear them say they want to put a stop to the feeling that bullying is a form of 'rite of passage'. I agree with that totally. That belief has done more to prolong bullying than anything else, imo. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 12 Apr 11 - 11:06 AM I agree Penny, to go round to someone's house because their little girl copied a colour is almost psychotic! Isn't it interesting that a lot of us on this thread remember with horrible clarity instances when we were cruelly bullied, even decades after the events, and even though we are now adults. It shows how the scars run very deep, and possibly damage one for life. Bullying IS serious and harmful. Lizzie, your twin friends remind me of two girls who became my constant companions during Grammar School. They were both immensely fat and jolly, almost like twins in looks, and both called Susan. My two Susans were excellent bodyguards and protectors, but we must have looked extremely funny together, I was skeletally thin and tiny, they were massive and so fat! But thanks to them I felt very secure at school. No-one bullied us! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 12 Apr 11 - 11:11 AM They sound rather lovely, Eliza. :0) I made an error earlier, as all of this happened in Secondary School, not Primary as I said at the beginning of my post. It was in the 2nd year, as it used to be called back then...Year 9 now, I think... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying From: Penny S. Date: 12 Apr 11 - 02:34 PM Bullying phrases, and my sort of response: "It was just a joke..." No it wasn't, and if you begin an excuse with it was just, I don't want to hear the rest. "It was only a joke..." As above. "He can't hack it..." Why should he have to? "He can't take it..." As above. "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me." If your victim chooses to say that, fine, but it's not for you to say. Broken bones mend quite fast, but the words can go on for years and years until people are adults. I still remember the Hearty Jokers club and how miserable they made me. Making me miserable was the joke. "Finders keepers, losers weepers." That phrase does not make it OK to make the losers weep, it's still theft if you know who it belongs to. Do you want to make people cry? (Not to be used if this is the sort of child who does!) Those sort of phrases really make me angry - along with "I was only, I was just...) Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 12 Apr 11 - 03:04 PM I agree, Penny. Self-justification goes on into adulthood and among nations. "We were 'just' cleansing the country of..." etc. I have heard of domestic violence perpetrators who say to their victims "Look what you made me do to you!" These phrases and statements reveal that the bullies feel perfectly justified in their actions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying From: Stringsinger Date: 12 Apr 11 - 03:34 PM If Obama says he is opposed to bullying then tell him to stop occupying Afghanistan and bring those troops home. Same with Iraq. He has no moral standing as long as he is conducting a foreign policy that bullies other nations or the people in them. So far, his foreign policy has offered the same justifications that are aforementioned with regard to bullies on the school ground. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying From: Teribus Date: 12 Apr 11 - 04:39 PM "If Obama says he is opposed to bullying then tell him to stop occupying Afghanistan and bring those troops home. Same with Iraq. He has no moral standing as long as he is conducting a foreign policy that bullies other nations or the people in them." - Stringsinger Well it all started during the Presidency of William Jefferson Clinton, was continued during the Presidency of George Walker Bush and has continued during the Presidency of Barack Hussein Obama. So let us take a look at what all this "Bullying" has accomplished: 1: Iraq Taking the period 1979 - 2003 and comparing it to 2003 - 2011 the daily average death toll of civilians has been reduced by 87%. Per capita income has increased from US$507 to over US$3,000 Sanctions have been lifted and the country is thriving in terms of trade and oil/gas exports. You have "revolutions" in Tunisia; Libya; Egypt; Syria; Bahrain & in the Yemen. No protests or trouble in Iraq 2: Afghanistan Taking the period 1978 - 2001 and comparing it to 2001 - 2011 the daily average death toll of civilians has been reduced by 97% 5,000 children in fulltime education in September 2001, over 8 million in fulltime education today. The infrastructure of the country is being rebuilt instead of being destroyed. Massive foreign investment is helping in creating industries. The country's first railway is being built. The changes are dramitic and all to the ultimate long term benefit of the people, the country, the nation and the region. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying From: ollaimh Date: 24 Apr 11 - 04:05 PM people ave alked here about facing and fighting the bully, and that's been done by me--when i wad younger i had morew bruised and contusions than i had brains , as a friend of mine put in a song. however, in my experience in the adult folk world thats it for you. a bully can get away with any kind of race and ethnic taunt but if you face em dowen or offer to fight here and nwo, my experience is the whole crowd then ostracises you. i speaking of england and anglo canada, in the us folkies aren't as class bigoted and want to hear "new " celtic songs(i have an extensive repitoire of nova scotia and new foundland songs that they often haven't heard down in the us. but vancouver folk circle and toronto folk circle if you defend yourself your demonized as a "mad man" . all st the same time i was playing full time professionally and for fun with portuguese greek, and a little arabic music communities--all of whom only cared to hear great fun music. the anglo folkies seem to establish a pecking order and complex rules--that they don't tell you about. and call it ettiquette or good manners, and if you don't know them then the talent free can get rid of the annoying talented musicians. in toronto and vancouver they had "official" nova scotia. newfoundland or acadien musicians", all not from those cultures. they hated to see some one like me from franco gaelic culture. now it took me years to realize this. but the same thing happened over and over done by the "official"folkies. and making fun of someones name is about as low as it gets without violence--and thats happened on mudcat--i had a guy--jim ladd--making fun of me useing a gaelic handle. he pretended he was "steeped" in cape breton culture. and knew no gaelic, nor evern recognized gaelic when he saw it. and on that thread few saw his attack and slurs as wrong.my birth cetificate and baptismal certifivaqte are diffewrenct--very long story. i get really tyired of people looking at my baptismal certificate name JEAN and saying thats a girls name. my birth c says john. that sort of thing was routine when i was young and not as rare now as i'd like to see. equally making fun of a gaelic handle or a tirtured english translation of a french last name(i got one) its sleazy, it shouldn't happen in the folk world, but it does and those who do it all come from one ethnic group. most anglos have a powerfull sense of entitlement and demand preferentiasl treatement where ever they go. that gets raw and in your face busking. there are a few nutty immigrants out busking but generally the immigrants cooperate. in tyoronto especially, the anglos arte constantly demanding special treatment. they don't think its special, they just don't understand why we don't get the f.... out of their way. in the ttc they had a buskers united group that licked out most of the immigrants--for raising issues around the use of threats against other musicians. they spent teir time discussing setting upo "rules" essentially so they wouldn't have to do what every body else does--talk as equalls to each other. then christamass would come and they wouldn't understand how i keep getting such good spots. well over the years i helped those who cooperated with me--and they helped me in return. but the anglo buskers help no one outside their ethnic and social group. and never believe that their friends would ever threaten anyone. i found this when i busked in london as well. the french and gypsies would cooperate the english would tell you to f... off. when i was young i went west to work in mining and drilling, again all the immigrants and the eastern canadians had to band together. we had to fistfight to keep our jobs or hang in a group to avoid the bullying--then the anglos would get pissed thast we were a gang. dammed if you do and dasmmed oif you don't. luckily there are quite a few easterners and quebecers out there in drilling miningand blasdting and all they cared about was getting the job done ans getting the bonuses so i could get work there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying From: maple_leaf_boy Date: 24 Apr 11 - 04:19 PM I've had similar experiences to your's Ollaimh. The part about the names really struck a chord with me. A lot of people have given me a hard time about my name as well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying From: ollaimh Date: 06 May 11 - 02:20 PM now i do wish to say that american folkies are no where so difficult as anglo canadians and english. when a decent musician shows up with new songs from a culture they don't know well they mostly want to listen. so please don't mistake me. i remain astonished how racist towards the irish maost english remian. i didn't understand what they were talking about when i was young--that's when i bothered to go to english folk clubs. they used to say that the irish starved in the famine becaue they didn't know enopgh to eat fish even though the while island was surrounded by water. ignoring the presence of british soldiers for nine hundred years talking all the best land from the natives. tjat's pure nazi style revisionist history. if you talked back a little common sense they would octracise you. here on mudcat there were a line up of crypto fascists justifying the killing of peacefull protestors on bloody sunday--as though there is no conection between the british army killing irish civilians and nine hundred years of military colonialism. americans don't often do that.at least not ones aginst the confederacy. however the next time i get"oh we know those songs" from some toronto or vancouver alglo i think i'll scream, because they probably have never actually heard them the way we actually play them. they were mostly not played in imitation ewan macoll and pete seager fashion. now i'm old and don't much care. because when i want to play i can find an audience anywhere. i do decent professional renditions of traditional nova scotia and new foundland music and people love it, so i don't need the wednesday night stage for an ego boost. i used the call the vancouver folk song society the wednesday might all stars. terrible musician after terrible musician, and they would rig the line up soo thaqt only the politically conected got to play. the last times i tried i was the first or second person to sign up to play for fout weeks in a row and didn't get on. they claimedit was an accident. ut their regulars never missed a night. again in the united states they like new musicians showing up and will bump people to hear something different. in toronto they have folk get together. where yopu ave to |know someone to find out where it is. i got invited while busking or doing gigs but rarely had the might off. the few times i had the night off i phoned and was told, by the guy who invited me--he apparently forgot manners or his own invite--that they can't have strangers showing up. the one time i found out where it was and waqs finished busking and a gig that day before eight o'clock. i got to the door with my harp and bouzouki in a cart. the guy at the door told me they didn'tallow street beggars. he thought i was homelesws because of the cart. there was a woman in their with a harp twice the size of mine(i busk with a ds fh26--very portable) but i couldn't be allowed in. i don't argue any more i juts headed back to the subway--there was an empty spot nearb. after a few minutes apparently it was tqalked about and two guys came chasing after me--i'm not very fast with a cart and a cane and my bad legs. they wereas apoligetic as alglo torontoiand get i supose but i was insulted and i told them so. when ever i would see those bigots while bisking i would sing my own version of merrsheen durkin or somethin like that. goodbye meersheen durkin(goodbye nova scotia) i'm sick and tired of working(i'm sick and tired of pogey) no more i;ll dig the pratties no longer i'll be fooled. as sure me name is parenteau i'mm off to old toronto where i'll dig no more the pratties i'll be digging lumps of gold or in vancouver as sure as me name is hoover i\m off to old vancouver where down at the sea buss station i\ll be digging lumps of gold |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying From: Joe Offer Date: 06 May 11 - 06:18 PM Sometimes, the behavior of Mudcatters appalls me. We have a number of people who post here who may not fit into the conventional standards of human behavior. I think that psychologists might say that they suffer from Borderline Personality Disorder. They may not fit into the conventions of behavior; but they're still human beings, and they still have worthwhile things to say. We do what we can to keep these people under control without smothering them, but that's not good enough for some Mudcatters. Sometimes, they gang up and repeatedly bully the individual until they drive that person away, tailing the poor scapegoat like a pack of hounds. Occasionally, the bullies act like they're the martyrs, that they're oppressed by the misfit. I find that hard to believe. A Mudcatter sent me this in a personal message, and gave me permission to post it. I think it teaches a good lesson:
I was working on a long message that I meant to add to that thread. I put so much work into it, I am reluctant to throw it away. Please read this and tell me what you think I should do with it. * Here's a story I heard long ago. I'm retelling it from memory, so it's probably not exactly the way I heard it: A Zen master was sitting with his disciples, leading them in guided meditation. A bird flew in through an open window. Someone moved to shoo the bird away, but this only frightened the bird, which then became disoriented, and it was unable to find the window to fly out again. It flew around vainly trying to escape, fluttering from one corner of the room to the next, near the ceiling. Some of the disciples thought, "This is disturbing our meditation. We ought to do something." So they got up and tried to catch the bird. They failed to catch it, and only made it more agitated. The poor bird flew around in a state of panic, crashing into walls and furniture. Finally the master said, "Everyone sit down and be quiet. Leave the bird alone." The disciples obeyed, reluctantly, because they couldn't believe they were going to accomplish anything that day, due to the disturbance. Exhausted, the bird landed on the back of a chair. It sat there quietly for a while, and then flew to the top of a bookshelf. Then it flew again and landed on the windowsill. At this point, the master clapped his hands abruptly, and the bird flew out the window and was not seen again. [Then the master summed up the experience with some pithy comment, but I am unable to remember what the comment was. I guess you'll have to figure it out for yourself.] |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying From: GUEST,Folkiedave Date: 07 May 11 - 09:22 AM http://suburbdad.blogspot.com/2006/10/victim-bullies.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying From: Jim Dixon Date: 07 May 11 - 11:46 AM From the link that Folkiedave provided: Gunsalus distinguishes between traditional, assertive bullies, who throw their weight around with bluster and force, and 'victim bullies,' who use claims of having been wronged to gain leverage over others.(pp. 123-4) Unlike simple passive-aggression, victim bullies use accusations as weapons, and ramp up the accusations over time. Unlike a normal person, who would slink away in shame as the initial accusations are discredited, a victim bully lacks either guilt or shame, honestly believing that s/he has been so egregiously wronged in some cosmic way that anything s/he does or says is justified in the larger scheme of things. So when the initial accusations are dismissed, the victim bully's first move is a sort of double-or-nothing, raising the absurdity and the stakes even more.Yes, that description sounds familiar. The funny thing is, in many of the arguments I see at Mudcat, the description fits people on both sides of the argument. Case in point: In the first version of the "Zen" story, no-one is a victim, but the second version reframes it so that the disciples are portrayed as victims of the strange malicious "creature." How do you get people to stop thinking of themselves as victims? It's one of the great mysteries of the age. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying From: GUEST,mg Date: 07 May 11 - 04:32 PM Teach them four words..hey knock it off and tell them to use it unless there is severe physical violence possible as a result. Do not give free passes to people who are presumed to never be bullies, and that means many women, including mothers, wives, live ins, supervisors, coworkers etc. Be prepared to leave any bullying relationship, including that with parents, adult children, spouses. Oh but I love him. Too bad. If you stay with someone who is abusive because you love him, and you are keeping children hostage, you are part of the abuse period. If you are terrified for your life if you leave, that is a different story. You have to leave, you have to have protection, and he might (or she might) actually be successful in their threats. Try really hard not to get in those relationships, leave before you have children, get restraining orders. Do not make excuses for them. Do not believe them when they say theywill get help, change etc..let them do that first, be sober and nonviolent for a long period of time and probably maintain separate living quarters forever. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying From: GUEST,mg Date: 07 May 11 - 04:37 PM It must be defined by society and the law that there are no "allowable" groups to bully or oppress..that means no bullying women, men, fat people, veterans, smaller, uglier, Protestants, those who have bullied your group in the psst, minorities or majorities. Part of bullying is instinctive and has to be restrained. I do not believe for one minute that children have to be taught it. They are naturals at it and it is a survival instinct. It has to be pointed out to them and there have to be consequences and there has to be surveillance of children. There also needs to be survieillance of places where teens congregate, push each other around, threaten each other, steal lunches, etc. Lots of nanny cams on street poles. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying From: LadyJean Date: 07 May 11 - 11:17 PM i was bullied in grade school. I kicked one of the little creeps in the groin. It didn't stop him, or any of the other little creeps. I know several of them were the offspring of small time crooks. I'm afraid I enjoyed reading about one little guttersnipe's family going to jail. They didn't do it all at once. Mom worked for the city and got caught with her hand in the till. Pop owned a bar, and thought liquor laws applied to someone else. Grandpa was a fence. They were nice, respectable, middle class people. Who thought the law applied to someone else. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying From: Penny S. Date: 08 May 11 - 03:33 AM Something that has bothered me recently has been the description of certain bullying activities as "hate crime" which is therefore supposed to get more immediate and effective support from the police. The cases in the news have been bullying of the disabled, both physically and mentally different from others. While I think that the recent cases have been appalling - one led to the suicide of a mother who killed her daughter in order to escape - there is an implication that if there is an obvious reason for the abuse, such as disability, religion or race, the bullying is worse, and therefore demands more action. So if someone suffers from neighbour abuse for no obviously labelable reason, they might not expect support from the police as readily as those with a recognised reason for the "hate". Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying From: GUEST,DonMeixner Date: 08 May 11 - 11:20 PM My sons were bullied to and from school everyday. They were told by the school teacher and principal that if they fought back they would be kicked out of school for a week. I told them to enjoy their vacation every chance they got. The bullying stopped shortly after that. D |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying From: mg Date: 09 May 11 - 01:17 AM I have seen so ;much idiocy in schools around this particular issue that I just can't work in them. Perhaps everything has changed, but Seattle schools in the 1980s were such hotbeds of abuse and kids picking on each other and principals and teachers looking the other way. I would report stuff and they would give some inane response. I should have gone straight to police in some cases. Things are probably better now but they were repositories of bullying and enabling and lack of responsibility. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying From: Ed T Date: 09 May 11 - 07:22 AM Ali G demonstrates bullying :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying From: GUEST,Patsy Date: 09 May 11 - 08:24 AM I was at the receiving end of bullying in Primary school but it was solved and the girl in question's mother invited me to tea and some other event and then on a regular basis. It did work in that case. The girl's parents were divorcing at that time, it was in the 60's and not as commonplace as now but I realise it must have been a confusing time for her back then. Can it be solved if both parents of the bully and victim co-operate more like this today? For the record when we later met again both of us due to leave our Secondary schools she turned out to be such a nice girl. I appreciate it might not be as simple as that in every case. |
