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BS: Bullying

Lizzie Cornish 1 07 Apr 11 - 08:07 AM
kendall 07 Apr 11 - 08:30 AM
Steve Shaw 07 Apr 11 - 08:34 AM
Backwoodsman 07 Apr 11 - 08:37 AM
GUEST,Patsy 07 Apr 11 - 09:16 AM
Steve Shaw 07 Apr 11 - 09:20 AM
GUEST,999 07 Apr 11 - 09:25 AM
Steve Shaw 07 Apr 11 - 09:33 AM
GUEST,999 07 Apr 11 - 09:52 AM
kendall 07 Apr 11 - 09:58 AM
GUEST,HiLo 07 Apr 11 - 10:22 AM
Backwoodsman 07 Apr 11 - 10:34 AM
Jeri 07 Apr 11 - 10:35 AM
ChrisJBrady 07 Apr 11 - 10:54 AM
GUEST,Eliza 07 Apr 11 - 11:13 AM
Jim Dixon 07 Apr 11 - 11:43 AM
Ebbie 07 Apr 11 - 11:45 AM
GUEST,999 07 Apr 11 - 12:01 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 07 Apr 11 - 01:20 PM
kendall 07 Apr 11 - 01:33 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 07 Apr 11 - 01:37 PM
Jim Dixon 07 Apr 11 - 02:11 PM
peregrina 07 Apr 11 - 02:18 PM
GUEST,Name and addesss withheld 07 Apr 11 - 02:25 PM
Mysha 07 Apr 11 - 02:29 PM
maple_leaf_boy 07 Apr 11 - 02:42 PM
peregrina 07 Apr 11 - 02:48 PM
Little Hawk 07 Apr 11 - 02:56 PM
GUEST,Eliza 07 Apr 11 - 03:09 PM
Jeri 07 Apr 11 - 03:50 PM
Little Hawk 07 Apr 11 - 04:09 PM
Penny S. 07 Apr 11 - 04:10 PM
GUEST,Eliza 07 Apr 11 - 06:01 PM
Little Hawk 07 Apr 11 - 06:10 PM
GUEST,Eliza 07 Apr 11 - 06:20 PM
GUEST,Name and address withheld 07 Apr 11 - 06:55 PM
Bill D 07 Apr 11 - 07:10 PM
GUEST,Eliza 07 Apr 11 - 07:12 PM
Little Hawk 07 Apr 11 - 11:29 PM
Little Hawk 08 Apr 11 - 12:03 AM
JennieG 08 Apr 11 - 12:07 AM
GUEST,mg 08 Apr 11 - 12:53 AM
GUEST,Patsy 08 Apr 11 - 03:21 AM
The Fooles Troupe 08 Apr 11 - 04:48 AM
ChrisJBrady 08 Apr 11 - 05:37 AM
GUEST,Eliza 08 Apr 11 - 06:18 AM
ChrisJBrady 08 Apr 11 - 07:03 AM
ChrisJBrady 08 Apr 11 - 07:04 AM
GUEST,leeneia 08 Apr 11 - 12:00 PM
DrugCrazed 08 Apr 11 - 12:32 PM
Little Hawk 08 Apr 11 - 01:07 PM
Charmion 08 Apr 11 - 01:13 PM
Jeri 08 Apr 11 - 01:14 PM
GUEST,Eliza 08 Apr 11 - 01:19 PM
Little Hawk 08 Apr 11 - 01:59 PM
kendall 08 Apr 11 - 08:06 PM
DrugCrazed 08 Apr 11 - 09:29 PM
Stringsinger 09 Apr 11 - 11:20 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 09 Apr 11 - 12:50 PM
Bert 09 Apr 11 - 01:29 PM
Dave the Gnome 09 Apr 11 - 02:04 PM
GUEST,999 09 Apr 11 - 06:10 PM
Dave the Gnome 09 Apr 11 - 06:26 PM
Jeri 09 Apr 11 - 06:35 PM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 09 Apr 11 - 06:42 PM
GUEST,999 09 Apr 11 - 07:06 PM
Little Hawk 10 Apr 11 - 12:19 AM
GUEST,999 10 Apr 11 - 12:44 AM
Backwoodsman 10 Apr 11 - 02:01 AM
GUEST,Eliza 10 Apr 11 - 07:00 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Apr 11 - 07:45 AM
Jeri 10 Apr 11 - 10:54 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 10 Apr 11 - 11:35 AM
Sandy Mc Lean 10 Apr 11 - 11:53 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Apr 11 - 12:08 PM
The Sandman 10 Apr 11 - 12:30 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 Apr 11 - 12:38 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 10 Apr 11 - 05:21 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 Apr 11 - 05:34 PM
peregrina 10 Apr 11 - 05:40 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 10 Apr 11 - 05:47 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 Apr 11 - 05:52 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 Apr 11 - 06:01 PM
GUEST,999 10 Apr 11 - 06:24 PM
GUEST,999 10 Apr 11 - 07:58 PM
ollaimh 10 Apr 11 - 09:33 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 11 Apr 11 - 04:53 AM
Penny S. 11 Apr 11 - 05:28 AM
Stringsinger 11 Apr 11 - 01:29 PM
GUEST,Eliza 11 Apr 11 - 02:00 PM
Teribus 12 Apr 11 - 01:58 AM
GUEST,999 12 Apr 11 - 03:13 AM
GUEST,Patsy 12 Apr 11 - 03:43 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 12 Apr 11 - 03:56 AM
banjoman 12 Apr 11 - 07:23 AM
GUEST,Eliza 12 Apr 11 - 07:54 AM
Penny S. 12 Apr 11 - 08:05 AM
GUEST,Eliza 12 Apr 11 - 08:10 AM
Penny S. 12 Apr 11 - 08:34 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 12 Apr 11 - 09:00 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 12 Apr 11 - 09:08 AM
GUEST,Eliza 12 Apr 11 - 11:06 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 12 Apr 11 - 11:11 AM
Penny S. 12 Apr 11 - 02:34 PM
GUEST,Eliza 12 Apr 11 - 03:04 PM
Stringsinger 12 Apr 11 - 03:34 PM
Teribus 12 Apr 11 - 04:39 PM
ollaimh 24 Apr 11 - 04:05 PM
maple_leaf_boy 24 Apr 11 - 04:19 PM
ollaimh 06 May 11 - 02:20 PM
Joe Offer 06 May 11 - 06:18 PM
GUEST,Folkiedave 07 May 11 - 09:22 AM
Jim Dixon 07 May 11 - 11:46 AM
GUEST,mg 07 May 11 - 04:32 PM
GUEST,mg 07 May 11 - 04:37 PM
LadyJean 07 May 11 - 11:17 PM
Penny S. 08 May 11 - 03:33 AM
GUEST,DonMeixner 08 May 11 - 11:20 PM
mg 09 May 11 - 01:17 AM
Ed T 09 May 11 - 07:22 AM
GUEST,Patsy 09 May 11 - 08:24 AM

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Subject: BS: Bullying
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 08:07 AM

From Obama to BBC Radio Devon, people are FINALLY starting to talk about this terrible problem. I've been banging on about it for years, and have pretty much suffered bullying because of it...

Anyway, I've just got off the phone from BBC Radio Devon as they were having a talk-in about it this morning. I was on just before 1pm. Many people want, apparently, to see corporate punishment brought back, but that is NOT the answer.

The answer is, imo, to look deep into ourselves, as adults, and ask why this is still being allowed to go on. It's about asking questions about examination stresses, schools and the whole idea of them, TV programmes, books, fashion, shops...EVERYONE who is making a fast buck out of our children and all those who don't care about children, be they the parents or the teachers....

We need to sensitise our children, not de-sensitise them...

If you listen to the BBC Radio Devon interview, I apologise for my shaky voice, but as ever, when something affects me very deeply the tears are brimming in my eyes and in my soul....


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: kendall
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 08:30 AM

As a boy I was bullied until I got fed up and decked the worst of the lot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 08:34 AM

Corporate punishment? Yeah, I'm all for it. Those bankers and oil barons have got it coming all right...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 08:37 AM

"As a boy I was bullied until I got fed up and decked the worst of the lot."

Yep me too, Kendall. Funny thing...nobody bothered me after that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 09:16 AM

I work in an environment that does not allow bullying in any form luckily or anything that contravenes the Diversity Act, it is such a good feeling that I can arrive every day happy knowing that someone is not going to make life hell for me. But I have experienced the opposite at school, in my early career and from an ex-spouse.

Corporate Punishment at school can't have worked in my experience as far as bullying goes. It made some children more deceitful with their tactics becoming revengeful again towards the victim. The only relief was actually leaving school only to come across another bully later but with this particular girl I bided my time until she herself left to go to another job. After that the rest of my single life got better.

The trouble with bullying it is in so many forms, girl bullying for instance can be hard to tackle and especially in this way by physical punishment as it tends to be bitchy. But however it is tackled in schools today the difference now is because of news coverage and programmes depicting gun and knife culture the schools can't always know how it will all turn out if or when they do tackle it.

The diversity policy works in here and could be used to teach parents and children in the same way followed up by frequent quizzes. The only thing I worry about is that children like to let off steam sometimes and it could get to a situation where they grow up shying away from wanting to confront anyone about anything.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 09:20 AM

Er, is it OK if we call it "corporal...?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,999
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 09:25 AM

So far, Shaw, you're the only one who hasn't grasped that. Good of you to catch up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 09:33 AM

Hellooo?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,999
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 09:52 AM

Institutionalized corporal punishment doesn't work. We already know that, so going down that path again accomplishes nothing except to have schools and their policies in court for assault.

As with Kendall and Backwoodsman, I handled it myself back in grade 5. Same result as them.

I was strapped in junior high school for being insubordinate (wasn't paying attention). Yeah, that taught me. When Mr _________ finished the five I looked at him and said, "My sister could hit harder than that!" I thought he was gonna have a coronary on the spot.

I think any school that institutionalizes corporal punishment had best be prepared to deal with mom and/or dad, either in court or in person. It's easy to grab a tiger by the tail, but before doing so one would be well advised to have a plan in place for dealing with the tiger's teeth. imo. ymmv.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: kendall
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 09:58 AM

Bullies and wife beaters are cowards at heart.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 10:22 AM

I believe that bullying is a concept children learn at home...usually as a result of verbal or physical bullying by parents. This does not absolve schools and society from adressing the problem, however, in my experience, parents need anti bullying instruction more than children do. The behaviour must be stopped at the root of the problem. Just a thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 10:34 AM

Whilst I dealt with bullies myself, I understand that it's not everyone that's equipped physically or, more importantly has the courage, to do that and risk a beating. It takes serious cojones to face down a tormentor (or usually, a tormentor and his/her sidekicks) and return his treatment.

I also understand that times have changed, and that whereas a fist-fight, a bloody nose and the odd black eye would sort things out back in the day, there seems often to be a danger of weapons being introduced and violence escalating in today's world.

I think the bullying of yesteryear, which was predominantly physical, slapping around, throwing books in the mud, letting bike tyres down sort of stuff has now been replaced by much more sinister stuff - texts, e-mails, social-website abuse and generally underhand, nasty behaviour. Much harder to deal with.

Glad I'm not a kid growing up today. And Kendall's right on the button - bullies and squaw-beaters are cowards and beneath contempt.

IMHO. YMMV.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 10:35 AM

What happens can't always be dealt with by beating someone up. I was bullied for most of my childhood. There were ringleaders, but pretty soon, mostly all of the kids are on board with the bullying. They're either part of it or they're ignoring what goes on.

I was told to ignore them. "Sticks and stones," and all that, but it didn't STOP anything. I learned that doing goofy things would at least get them to stop taunting and start laughing, even if it was at me.

I changed.

Things got better when I got older, but I'd learned some things I don't think I should have had to learn. I didn't trust people, and I didn't really like them either. There were kids who'd reached out a hand, and I was afraid they were doing it to fool me. I believed I had to act differently than my normal self to get along, and THAT stuck with me for most of my adult life. I felt like I was a monster, pretending to be human so the other humans didn't come after me with torches and pitchforks. That's a bit overly dramatic, but you'll get the drift. Every single time I feel hurt, I go back to that.

And there ends today's D.I.Y. therapy session.

You can blame victims, you can blame bullies, but it really is about what ways of interacting are condoned or encouraged. The way these things are or are NOT dealt with can cause more harm or good than the actual bullying. I don't think punishing the bullies would have been effective, and I don't think teaching me to kick everyone's ass would have been effective. If a person is trying to fit in, further alienating others will make things worse. Changing the norm for the group would have worked. Shame would have. Teaching those outside of the core group of bullies that those bullies were wrong would have. Teaching them to stop supporting the bullies would have.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 10:54 AM

Please spread the word about this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrJxqvalFxM

Stand Up! - Don't Stand for Homophobic Bullying


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 11:13 AM

In all my years of teaching, I saw many bullies. In nearly every case, they were at heart very unhappy and miserable individuals, who had suffered neglect, abuse or violence at home. The interesting thing is, many (not all by any means) of their victims were also children who were at a disadvantage in some way, either scruffy, too fat, too thin, odd mannerisms etc. I never had any sympathy with the protagonists, but punished them every time (lines, detention etc.) Just because one is unhappy inside is NOT an excuse to dominate and hurt another. But I did manage (I hope) to distinguish between serious bullying and ordinary playground disagreements and name-calling. The latter should be ignored in the main. I find nowadays that bullying goes on in the adult world. I was bullied in the HMCR enquiries office the other day, for no apparent reason. But the woman concerned was obviously miserable in her job (no excuse!) and didn't look well. Neither did I when I emerged in tears after the 'interview'!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 11:43 AM

GUEST,999: What was the point of this remark?

"So far, Shaw, you're the only one who hasn't grasped that. Good of you to catch up."

Steve Shaw was, I think, pointing out that corporal punishment had been twice incorrectly referred to as corporate punishment.

And GUEST,999, why don't you get a membership so we can PM you about stuff like this?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 11:45 AM

Steve Shaw's line about bankers and oil barons made me laugh; perfect example of 'corporate' bullying.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,999
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 12:01 PM

Check your messages, Mr Dixon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 01:20 PM

When I was in the early grades in a two room school, with multiple grades in each, I was bullied to the point of terror by a few of the bigger and older kids. I would often come home crying and I still remember my older brother teaching me how to box on our kitchen floor. I learned fast and I grew fast and strong enough to beat the crap out of my tormentors. Perhaps I became a bully then myself because I fancied myself as a bit of a vigilante who would not only step in to defend others but also torment and intimidate those whom I considered to be bullies. By the time I reached my teens I seldom had to fight and I would walk away if I could at all, but both my peers and myself knew I was no coward.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: kendall
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 01:33 PM

It felt good when I decked that asshole, but after wards it didn't and I never felt like doing it for fun.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 01:37 PM

"Corporate punishment? Yeah, I'm all for it. Those bankers and oil barons have got it coming all right..."

:0)   

Sorry about that folks, although it was worth it for Steve's remark there...Very good, Steve! I was in a real hurry when I posted that earlier.....and....I'd only just managed to stop myself saying "Corporate Bastards!" on air on Fitz's show, so I guess the word was still hanging around.

Jeri, I felt every word you posted above. I'm so sorry you had to lose so much of your younger life to unhappiness of that sort.

It makes my blood boil that this is still not being dealt with in today's world. The effects of bullying can so often last a life-time. The amount of older people who were advocating bringing back corporal punishment shocked me, to be honest...as did those who thought that sorting out the bully with a bloody good thump was all that's needed...Yes, maybe that did work, still does work, but we ain't come far as a species if we have to deal with violence purely through more violent violence, have we?

My lad was bullied, as was my daughter, as was I.   We were all quiet as children and young people and that's not allowed in group situations, basically. If you are different in a noticeable way, then the ones 'higher up' or ...er....'lower down' the chain feel it's their right to bully, exclude, belittle, abuse...whatever it takes to make them feel good and you feel bad.

Being kind to each other is AS important as English, Maths, Science et al....and Music and Arts should be up there on the 'must have' lists too, along with Compassion, Empathy and Dealing with Shiteheads...

Yes, the bullies come from bad backgrounds, more often than not, but if all children were taught from the very beginning that being kind is right, and being unkind is wrong, then maybe the message would get through much more clearly.   

Many parents don't love their children, many teachers don't like children. Many do. It's the ones who don't who are also adding to the problem and who also need to be dealt with.

I was hit across the hand, very hard, with a wooden ruler by my form teacher in Primary School for talking. I was a chatterbox charlie back then, but I barely whispered a word in class. On this occasion he caught me whispering to my friend, literally, whispering...I was called out to the front of the class...made to put my hand out straight, then WHACK!! he went with his ruler.

From that moment I hated him.
From that moment I learned to never trust another teacher again.
From that moment I knew humiliation....and inner rage.
From that moment I knew a powerful sense of right and wrong.

From that moment I knew that any adult who hits a child is shit, although back then, I didn't konw the right word, but I knew he was a bad man.

You wanna stop the bullying? Then start liking the children. Stop incessantly testing them. Stop forcing them to learn things they have no interest in. Stop teaching school in the same way it's been taught since Victorian times....

Let go of all that's gone before and make school a place where every child feels valued, loved, cared for, extraordinarily safe, and knows they're a part, a very important part of a whole caring community, where respect lies in equal parts on both sides of the corridor.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 02:11 PM

I wonder what happens to bullies when they get older?

I wonder what it would be like to have a conversation about bullying with the very people who bullied us when we were young?

I suppose this would have to happen at a high-school reunion. I have never attended one, partly because I live 500 miles away from where I went to school, and partly because I have too many bad memories of those years.

I still have a lot of resentment, not only toward the bullies themselves, but to everyone who failed to stand up for me, which means, everybody.

I remember one of my "friends" saying to me after one incident, "I think you shouldn't have cried."


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: peregrina
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 02:18 PM

Adult/Workplace bullying is also widespread and can be devastating; few employers and managers are willing to address it.
It's not just the targets who suffer.
Studies show that being a bystander in a bullying environment is damaging too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,Name and addesss withheld
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 02:25 PM

Most of the posts here seem to indicate what I knew already- that the vast majority of people don't know what the word means. Bullying is usually not about physical abuse, any more than rape is about sexuality, though violence certainly is one tool used. The aim of bullies - they are almost always a group- is to achieve dominance by lowering the self- esteem of their victims. The usual tools are ridicule (anything will do, the wrong sort of clothes, interests not shared by the group, difference in appearance no matter how slight, physical disability, interest in school or work), social isolation, calumny (allegations of sexual deviation for example), petty harassment and so on. The aim is often to provoke a physical reaction, so that the victim can be portrayed as the aggressor. So the ability to box, or willingness to "stand up like a man", usually only results in the victim being punished and further stigmatised. The victim's neutral peers usually offer no help, perhaps for fear of becoming a target by association. In school, teachers, and in work managers, will often use the situation to bolster their own authority. For children, parents can be the least sympathetic of the lot, especially if teachers have involved themselves.

To admit to having been bullied opens you to insinuations like the one above, that the victim is a coward, or that you are in some way inadequate.

Those who have not experienced this, or experienced it as one of the bystanders, seem to think that it is a matter of size or age. Think of it as part of a struggle for power- those with the most desire to dominate others use any tool available to that end. You yourselves were probably more or less willingly and wittingly, a participant in that process. As a neutral, you are probably still doing it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Mysha
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 02:29 PM

Hi,

Outsider view (See the little speck east of the North and Southern Seas, typing at a keyboard in a lonely apartment building?):

I'm one of the don't-fits. At school there was name-calling, there was mocking, there was ignoring.

There never was bullying.

When I encountered the word in an English book, I had to look it up because from the context it didn't make sense. Basically the whole context there didn't make sense. Then the children were hit with a ruler or a rod by a teacher: the book became more and more incomprehensible, except that there seemed to be a method to the madness: They all were violent.

When I caught two ferries and went to England, three years ago, I had the new experiences of:
* Police helicopters with search lights hovering loudly overhead at night
* Alarms and sirens literally every day, even on days where I cycled through the country-side the whole day.
* City neighbourhoods so threatening in their lack of liveliness that I wasn't sure I'd safely cycle out at the other end.

I still don't know, and it's a limited view, but though most British I came into contact with were very friendly, I don't think the problem is with the behaviour of individuals.

Bye,
                                                                Mysha


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 02:42 PM

In N.S., a child was bullied for wearing pink. Two students started a
"Pink Day" anti-bullying campaign. This was a few years back. It became a widespread day. The premier made the second Thursday of the
academic year an official stand up to bullying day. There is still more to be done. Recently, there were a few kids in N.S. who took their own lives due to bullying. They were bullied not only at school, but online as well. "Formspring" is a common network where it takes place.

I know about one child who was picked on would react to the antagonists,
and would get in trouble. The teachers wouldn't punish the other kids.
They knew that he was egged on, but they refused to punish his tormenters, and they demonized him. This was when I was in grade school.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: peregrina
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 02:48 PM

Very common dynamic, blaming the victim, evident in peoples' reactions to all kinds of abuse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 02:56 PM

There are 2 ways to look at bullying.

1. The bully as victim - The people who become bullies are in pain, have usually been bullied themselves by someone (often a parent), and are looking to get even for it by bullying someone else.

2. The bully as perpetrator - The people who engage in bullying are looking for a way to make themselves feel dominant and powerful by destroying someone's else's self-esteem. They get a charge out of humiliating other people. They enjoy inflicting humiliation.

Either viewpoint is valid, and both will often apply to the same bully.

I was mainly aware of the number 2 example when I got bullied a lot back in school. I became somewhat aware of the number 1 example after awhile too, but it didn't help much. ;-) I know of no sure way to stop bullies except to stand up to them when they try it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 03:09 PM

Little Hawk, I agree that the best way is to stand up to the bully, but that's often the very thing the victim cannot do, as they are non-dominant by nature and weaker physically. I was bullied as a little girl in infant school. I was very shy and extremely thin, and merely tried to become invisible. I spent playtime hiding behind groups of other children. If someone had told me to "Stand up for yourself" I could never have done it! Luckily, I was 'promoted' a year early to Junior School, and escaped the little beast.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 03:50 PM

For better or worse, my history has made me who I am. It's made me overly sensitive to some things and very strong in some areas. I don't trust people easily, but I also see people and look for that vulnerable little kid we all still have somewhere inside us.

I know I've told the story before, but...
One of my bullies was a neighborhood bully, not a school bully. Kids from the elementary school would get off the bus and walk as far as a mile (that was me) home. This kid was older and bigger than all the other kids on my street, and he used to pick on all of us. I mostly didn't say anything, but my parents got the story out of me. They asked why I didn't fight back, and I told them I didn't think I was supposed to fight, that I would get into trouble. Dad & Mom agreed that, while I shouldn't start a fight, it was OK to fight back to stop one.

One time, walking home from school, he started in. I ran into a neighbor's yard, with him chasing me, and then realized what I was doing and stopped. I turned around, and he laughed at me and said something like "You better run, or I'll hit you."

I said, "Go ahead" and stood there. I would have let him too, if only so I could clock him. He took a swing (with an open hand) and... missed. I said "Try again." He missed again. Then, I stepped forward, and with both hands, shoved him, whereupon he fell on his sit-upon. He actually STAYED there, and I said, "No more!" and walked away.

He never bothered me again, and when I walked home from school, I made sure he didn't pick on the smaller kids.

Now, as far as what makes kids bullies, I don't agree there has to be something wrong at home or with them. Everybody likes to feel accepted and important, and bullies get those things through dominating other kids. I lost touch with him after high school, buthe person in this anecdote of mine grew up to be a good guy, and was someone I ended up respecting.

I believe kids bully because they can.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 04:09 PM

Oh, I understand perfectly, Eliza. I was the same type of kid you were, very small and thin and shy. I also tried to become "invisible" and only escaped, finally, by reaching the age where I could leave school behind and join the world of the adults....thank God!

Looking back on it all with hindsight, I realize that the only thing one can do to end childhood bullying is to stand up against it, but like you, I was not well equipped physically or psychologically to do that, so it simply didn't seem to be a viable option.

My father, in fact, kept telling me "Punch him in the nose.", but it was not advice I could possibly imagine acting on. It was the kind of thing that always worked for my father, because he was an aggressive, tall, strong, A-type personality, a man who wasn't afraid of anything (except that someone might laugh at him). He never had the slightest hesitation about getting tough with people, but he and I were about as opposite in nature as two people could possibly be. I'm a "thinker" (and a negotiator...I seek harmony and mutual agreement). He was a "doer" (man of action...seeks victory). Both qualities are worth having, the "thinker" and the "doer" but imagine what you could do with an equal measure of both! ;-)


****

Good point, Jeri. Yeah, a lot of kids bully simply because they can. You see that with armed nations too. And governments. And bosses. And border officials. And some police, unfortunately. And even dogs and cats, as far as that goes...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Penny S.
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 04:10 PM

I hate to have to say this, but I have known a woman bullied in her sheltered housing by other inmates who thought she shouldn't be there, and a local warden to my new home said that it isn't unusual. Nice thing to look forward to.

It is the women who perpetrate this stuff. Female relational bullying it is called. I've not come across an answer while teaching. Unlike the male bully (and persistent Flashman, Steerforth, Malfoy bullies are rare, while many boys may bully sometimes) children want to be in the in group of the female bully. She may be admired, as well as "attracting" girls who don't want to be the victim next week. I very much doubt if the parents would recognise that their little princess is anything but. I have heard that in secondary schools teachers will not oppose the bullying because if they do, the ring leader will turn her gang to disrupt the class.

Once in work and adulthood, her habits get fixed, and so on to age... she needs to be dealt with in school, and I haven't the foggiest idea how.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 06:01 PM

LittleHawk, my father was just the same as yours, very forceful and strong-minded, also robust physically. I think people like that find it hard to comprehend a victim's point of view. You're right (again) that the two personalities have value, and if one could acquire the other, mountains could be moved! It's interesting to contemplate (if one could actually choose) which personality one would prefer to have. I feel I'd still be the negotiator and thinker, as I value highly kindness and empathy. I wouldn't feel comfortable in the powerful position of a dominant leader type. I also like to use my brain and intelligence to solve problems, rather than overpower the opponent by sheer force of character. Which would you choose?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 06:10 PM

I'd like a judicious combination of the two: strength, kindness, courage, intelligence, and empathy combined. If I have to pick between being me or being my father, though, I'd choose to be me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 06:20 PM

I wonder if there is such a thing as a 'born victim'? Some of my pupils in the past seemed to 'attract' bullying. I even had a girl pupil who was moved to another school because of her distress, and she was promptly bullied there as well, poor child. I'm NOT saying it was her fault, there's no excuse for it, but some types just seem to become a target automatically. Yet I've also seen little weaklings with no apparent attractive qualities become quite dominant and well-respected by their peers. What IS it that provokes this reaction? I even have a cat ('Murphy') who is bullied by the others. He's strong and fit, but he is fearful of the other two, one of which is his brother. Is there something genetic or primitive going on, which the thin veneer of civilised behaviour doesn't control? If so, how do we combat it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,Name and address withheld
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 06:55 PM

Born victim, eh? Just the sort of excuse the perpetrators, and the collaborators, want. It's not my fault, it's theirs, they are BORN VICTIMS.

LH- this is yet another thing you don't understand. Stay out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 07:10 PM

My one serious interaction with a bully was, in the end, fun..

I walked home from 6th grade in the same general direction of two of the most popular & 'cool' guys in class... and Billy the Bully also.

Billy was a spoiled 'rich' kid who had been in military school for awhile. On 2-3 occasions the tried to provoke me about something... I can't remember what. I was not a fighter, and was a skinny little kid who had just moved there. The two 'cool' guys didn't bother me...I think I barely registered on their radar....but Billy seemed to think he could gain some sort of status if he... ummm.. picked a fight with me and/or pushed me around.

   Finally one day, about a block from school, we were all 'together' and he began harassing me and calling me names while the others watched in amusement ....just generally trying to start something that HE would finish. What he didn't know was that I often wrestled with my own brother in semi-serious tussles.
So.... Billy finally saw that I wasn't gonna respond to dares and words, and he kinda grabbed/pushed at me. I just shoved my right arm under his left, behind his neck & shoulders, and with a sort of 'half-nelson' twist, pushed and twisted until he was down in the grass on his face with me on top and his left arm shoved up HIGH...like I learned with my brother.

    He yelled.."Mama!"..... and I got up and walked away while the guys grinned. Funny... I never had another bit of trouble with 'ol Billy.

Too bad others who were bullied never had my luck and 'practice' wrestling....
I think every school year up to high school should begin with a mandatory session where the school administrators spell out what bullying is, and make it clear that it will NOT be tolerated.......then follow up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 07:12 PM

Guest, if you are addressing me, I actually wrote 'I'm NOT saying it was her fault, there's no excuse for it'. But in my very long experience of children, I have often seen individuals who appear to be picked on at every turn. I merely ask for suggestions as to why this should be. And why are you attacking LittleHawk? In what way does he 'not understand'? I personally find his postings to be considered, thoughtful and VERY understanding. He says himself he was bullied at school, so he has every right IMO to comment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 11:29 PM

Yeah, sure some kids attract bullies...I've seen that over and over again. I was one of those kids. They attract bullies merely because they appear to be vulnerable, and that's what a bully is looking for, someone who's vulnerable.

Even in young adult life I drew some attention from bully types, because I was not an aggressive person, I was also not much for conforming to the styles of the time, therefore I tended to attract attention from certain toxic personalities who were looking for someone to persecute.

The same thing happens with animals, on a bit simpler level, and I've seen it with cats, dogs, and when I took care of a herd of goats. Certain more pacifisic types got victimized by the dominant animals. It also happens in mental institutions as well as in schools, and it's something the staff in those instituions must make stringent efforts to control. I've witnessed that too. The bullies will usually make their move when there's no staff around, and they wait for the opportunity to do so.

This in no way makes any kind of excuse for the perpetrators or the collaborators. In fact, it makes them all the much guiltier for their bullying behaviour in my opinion...or their tacit support of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 12:03 AM

By the way, nameless guest, I agree with everything you said in your post of 07 Apr 11 - 02:25 PM


So if I "don't understand" this subject...I guess you must not either. ;-) Hmm?

Yes, it's mostly about dominance...and I personally experienced just the sort of bullying you describe in your lengthy post.

You said: "The aim of bullies - they are almost always a group- is to achieve dominance by lowering the self- esteem of their victims. The usual tools are ridicule (anything will do, the wrong sort of clothes, interests not shared by the group, difference in appearance no matter how slight, physical disability, interest in school or work), social isolation, calumny (allegations of sexual deviation for example), petty harassment and so on. The aim is often to provoke a physical reaction, so that the victim can be portrayed as the aggressor. So the ability to box, or willingness to "stand up like a man", usually only results in the victim being punished and further stigmatised. The victim's neutral peers usually offer no help, perhaps for fear of becoming a target by association. In school, teachers, and in work managers, will often use the situation to bolster their own authority. For children, parents can be the least sympathetic of the lot, especially if teachers have involved themselves.

To admit to having been bullied opens you to insinuations like the one above, that the victim is a coward, or that you are in some way inadequate.

Those who have not experienced this, or experienced it as one of the bystanders, seem to think that it is a matter of size or age. Think of it as part of a struggle for power- those with the most desire to dominate others use any tool available to that end. You yourselves were probably more or less willingly and wittingly, a participant in that process. As a neutral, you are probably still doing it.


Righto. Yes. I agree 100% with all of the above, just as you said it.

I experienced a great deal of ridicule for "the wrong clothes", "interests not shared by the group", "differences in appearance no matter how slight", being a foreigner, and "interest in my schoolwork". I was ridiculed for being "a brain", because I got very good marks. It was 100% clear that I was not going to respond to that ridicule with any form of violence, so they didn't take that route with me...but there was a tall red-haired kid who was constantly harassed and pushed around with the intention of provoking him to violence. And he often lost his temper and fought back, and it did him no good whatsoever, because he wasn't a very good fighter and people were ganging up on him. As you say, bullies generally operate as a group.

It's also not necessarily a case of physical size or age. It's more a case of which group you hang out with, at least in school. If you become part of a group of bullies, then they all support each other when they pick a target. I've seen small kids who got bullied. I've seen big kids who got bullied. The main reason they got bullied was that some group labelled them as "outsiders", therefore a good target.

I was a total outsider, wasn't even from the same country, had no interest in belonging to an in-group whatsoever, and had totally different interests in practically everything from most of the kids in my school.

The fact that I wasn't inclined to fight put me in a weak position...but it also paradoxically kept me from getting beat up. They never beat me up, just stuck to ridicule and verbal stuff.

They were enjoying their dominance. In the case of the red-haired kid, he had an even rougher time than I did, and his tendency to flar up and fight back did him no good at all. I truly pitied that kid. School was just one long hell for him.

Why did they pick on him? Well...the red hair had something to do with it. His facial features may have had something to do with it. (he looked sort of like Charlie Brown...but taller) He carried a BRIEFCASE!!!!! I am not joking when I say that if you carried a briefcase in Junior High and High School you were utterly doomed to be picked on constantly. Only 2 kids I ever knew carried briefcases and they were the most picked on 2 kids in the entire school.

They were perceived as different. So was I. And that's about all it takes to attract bullies.

A new kid will sometimes get picked on too...after the local bullies and their collaborators have spent a short time figuring out whether to accept them or not.

One new kid arrived, and his name was Francis Basset. Both his names were a great excuse for picking on him, and he was new. However, he was also one tough character...looked a lot like a young Steve McQueen, and he virtually never smiled. There was a taut and humorless air about him.

One of the local assholes decided to make a few jokes at Francis' expense shortly after his arrival at the school, and Francis punched him in the stomach. One really fast straight punch. Hard. And that was all it took. They didn't bother him after that. He proved to be good at sports too, which is a big plus in school. So Francis got quietly accepted by the "bad boys" after that.

Frances was not a particularly nice person. Like I say, I hardly ever saw him smile. I got the impression he'd grown up under a hard father, but who knows? At any rate, he was not what I'd call a bully, just someone who stayed in his own space and didn't much want anyone in it either. He could've worked his way up the bully chain, but he didn't seem to really give a damn one way or the other.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: JennieG
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 12:07 AM

Much is being said these days about bullying in childhood and teen-hood (is there such a word? there ought to be) but bullying by adults, to other adults, is just as prevalent if not more so. Ten years ago I left a job because of persistent bullying by my supervisor. He was one of those bullies who constantly chip away at the self-esteem of others, and because of the culture of that workplace (a Catholic parochial school) I, a non-Catholic and a female to boot, was unable to change anything. I so dreaded going to work that one day on my daily commute I was thinking how easy it would be to pull the steering wheel over and drive under the large truck that was in the next lane....that's when I knew the time had come to leave.

Then of course there are parents who bully their own children, who use their position as parents and adults to treat their children in a way they would never treat a fellow adult. Not only teachers bully children.

All I am going to say is, I was glad I left childhood behind.

Cheers
JennieG


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 12:53 AM

As to girl bullying..call them on it and describe the behavior to the whole student body and give it a name. And say that it is bullying and it will not be tolerated and furthermore you will be watching for it. Pass out some cards or something with checkpoints on how to recognize it. Have kids make posters and display them. Gather the cheerleaders of the school and tell them the mental health of the school is going to be partially at least determined by their behavior and that they are to set a good example or you will yank their program. If cheerleaders are bullies, don't tolerate it, because they are usually the chief girls in a school. Have a social worker come in and talk to classes or the student body about this behavior that does not leave bruises but is so damaging. Do not let girls get away with stuff. Let parents know they are to watch the behavior of their girls toward other girls and not let them fly under the radar. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 03:21 AM

Steve I realise what you meant, I meant to say 'corporal' it was a slip of the finger and trying really hard to 'look' like I was working LOL. Or perhaps as Lizzie says corporate bullying as in bankers is quite apt today. It is another form of underlying bullying as is any sales pitch to try to bamboozle the customer with figures and different offers when all you really had in mind was check that the account was going well.

When my youngest son was at school through the 80s and beginning of the 90s it was the culture of spending silly money on trainers and designer clothes, some brands are still expensive now but then children were asking to have the best trendy brands with flashing heels and suchlike and he went through a phase of sneering at other children wearing cheaper brands. He was grounded to make him think about the things that he said but with peer pressure outside it probably didn't change his way of thinking. Now he is older he doesn't regard these things as important at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 04:48 AM

Teenagers bully flood victim


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 05:37 AM

I used to work for a major (flag carrier) airline in i.t. support at Heathrow. For all the years I was there - 24+ - there was a blame culture that emanated from the top down. I was at grass roots level so got the lot.

In my last year before retirement I was bullied by 12 peers (one a manager) also in i.t. support who set up an illegal bulletin board (on Lotus Notes) on the Intranet. They were all ardent football supporters - bored and with too much time to waste. On this they posted photos of other office staff in deliberately contrived situations, and posted numerous comments about their peers and management. Some pictures were of a sexual nature. The comments included personal attacks on individuals including myself. When I heard about this I tricked one of them - who was actually somewhat appalled at what was going on - into sending me a copy of the LN database. I immediately reported them. A disciplinary investigation was held - which lasted 6-months. Meanwhile I didn't know whom I could trust and I saw some of them on a daily basis - they usually changed direction rather than walk past me. Eventually they were disciplined and some threatened with dismissal - but this never happened. Six of them had to write me letters of apology - which remain unopened and unread to this day. However the stress of all of this caused me to lose all of my hair - and unlike Gail Porter it ain't growing back. I never got any compensation. So when early retirement was offered - along with 500 others - we all took the pension and ran. I've never looked back.

One of the other bullying episodes was from a grossly over-weight male project leader, who thought he knew everything about i.t. but actually didn't know anything at all. He's already been thrown out of the Engineering department. Talk about throwing his weight around - literally. But on a number of issues I had to challenge his ideas because what he wanted us to do was quite clearly incorrect and bad for our customers (in Finance). On one occasion he wrote me a 12 page performance review which was offensive and full of emotional diatribe. This caused my rating (and salary to go down). I had to go to the Union to get it withdrawn. Which they achieved and my rating was restored - but he never forgot nor forgave.

Towards the end I also had a woman manager who again made my life hell. She was unmarried and frustrated as hell. She used to disappear on Fridays and Mondays to 'work at home.' But when we looked into her online diary she actually flew to/from Manchester. The 'work at home' was actually one long weekend after another. She really laid into me once for missing a deadline for producing some insignificant s/w app. Not my fault - she had given me programming work I had not been trained for. Anyway she really laid it on the line how disappointed she was at the missed deadline. It was only afterwards when I asked the customers (in Finance) about it when they told me that the project had actually been cancelled a few weeks before - which she had known about but hadn't bothered to tell me.

Incidentally cabin crew are going on strike again soon. With such bullying management I'm not surprised.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 06:18 AM

CJB, I feel enormous sympathy for you, such treatment can cause serious health problems and lasting psychological damage. You must feel dreadfully bitter, and I can only admire you for staying so long and for taking steps to bring the perpetrators to the attention of the authorities, albeit without an awful lot of success or redress by the sound of it. I'm so glad you can say, "I've never looked back." I do hope you are enjoying life now and in some sense can put those miserable times behind you (not easy, I'm sure) Best wishes for your future serenity, Eliza.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 07:03 AM

Hi Eliza - many thanks for your post. I could go on and on with more stories to tell. But then people say well why did you stay? - the simple answer is for the pension and also because despite the blame culture there were a heck of a lot of good folk there too - and I did get an award for excellence from my (internal) customers a few years back!! They appreciated my work even if my own management didn't.

But another lady was badly bullied out of the same company, and then set up a website against them:

http://www.jfo.org.uk/support/baba/

====


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 07:04 AM

Actually JFO (Just Fight On) is a great organisation.

http://www.jfo.org.uk/

There are also a number of Yahoo Groups about Bullying Support that folks here might be interested in:

http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/bullyonline/

Description

The BullyOnline forum was formed in 2000 by the late Dr Tim Field, sharing his unique and extensive experience of casework, his UK National Workplace Bullying Advice Line, and web site
Bully OnLine

It remains the world's leading forum on tackling workplace bullying, and can provide validation and re-empowerment for those who have suffered work abuse or bullying anywhere.

The forum's main focus is to identify, expose and deal with the serial bully who Tim realised is a common factor in most cases of workplace bullying. He found that denial of the existence of a serial bully is the most common cause of unsatisfactory outcomes where bullying is reported.

The group discusses the experience of bullying, harassment and abuse, and the effect on health through stress.

And there is:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/bullying-support/

Description

This group is has been created by
http://www.bullying.org. This list will be a communication tool for those who wish to discuss the issue of bullying.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 12:00 PM

I read somewhere that a bullying child is the child of a parent that is totally inconsistent.

Makes sense. What kind of parent is TOTALLY inconsistent? A dysfunctional parent, who might be a drunkard, a druggie or insane. Whatever the cause, the parent's actions and reactions are a complete mystery. They can also be frightening or infuriating.

The bully has a mind full of fear, confusion, anger and the desire to control something, anything. That something is most likely to be a younger, weaker child. Add to that that he follows his parent's exmaple, alternately being oblivious to injustice and losing control of himself, and the result is misery for all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 12:32 PM

I know that my personality is changed by what happened to me at primary school. I was never the cool kid, and even now I won't be.

I'm now 19 and 9 years away from those who made me hate being at school. I got used to being on my own, and even now there are times I'd rather not leave but just sit in and ignore the world.

I worked out a defence mechanism, which was self depreciation. Friends have commented on it and said "You're too good at that. You really oughta stop". But I don't. If I took the insult and made it my own why would anyone use it against me? My theory hasn't been proven wrong yet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 01:07 PM

Yes, I've seen some people who coped with it in that manner.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Charmion
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 01:13 PM

Dear DrugCrazed, if you take the insult and make it your own, there is no reason for anyone else to use it against you. That work is already done -- by you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 01:14 PM

DrugCrazed: do I EVER know what you're talking about! I also do the self-deprecation route. The problem is that people can eventually become what they pretend to be, and I think that happened to me. I don't know when I crossed the line between pretending to be less than I am and believing it. You can quit trying if you think you'll end up failing anyway. Listen to your friends.

I wish at some point in my life, I'd tried to fill some better role.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 01:19 PM

DrugCrazed, I've seen many 'cool kids' over the years, and 1) They aren't as cool inside as one might think and 1) They aren't terribly nice people as they've had it all their own way, and lack insight and compassion, two very important qualities.
Having been a timid and deferential type as a youngster, I found that getting to know and caring about oneself is quite helpful. By that I mean learning what you like, what gives you pleasure, what makes you happy, and then trying very hard to give yourself those things, telling yourself you are worthy of it. It also means learning to say "NO" when people try to use you. I hope you don't feel I'm patronising you, I'm quite an old woman and have seen all sorts of personalities over the decades, including damaged and fearful ones. I so much wish you well and hope you can realise how worthwhile and important you are. Eliza


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 01:59 PM

It helps to be around good people, people who help build you up instead of tearing you down.

If you can find them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: kendall
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 08:06 PM

I know the Spinners, great music.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 09:29 PM

I don't believe what I say. I don't think so anyway.

I'm immenselly cutting to myself, mostly because sometimes I find it funnny. The endless jokes I make about my lack of a girlfriend are amusing because I have a ladyfriend. And yes, they are different.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 11:20 AM

The dots have to be connected. Micheal Moore did this admirably in his film "Bowling for Columbine". We have, today, a military industrial complex which is bullying citizens and taxpayers every day and advocating for a kind of violence in society. It has gone beyond just national security. Moore shows that in his scene with the spokespeople at Martin Marietta
in Georgia.

Big guns, big fists, big weapons, big bullying, big occupations, big corporations are all part of the climate of bullying today. You can't address the small problems without the big ones.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 12:50 PM

I fear Dave's comment was ironic. What he he meant (forgive me, if I'm wrong) was the The Spinners weren't up to much and he risked being tagged a member of the folk gestapo for saying as much.

The attitude goes back to the 70's and 80's on the English folkscene when Carthy was out there speading the gospel of authentic traditional style music. Anything less in delivery style was frowned upon and examined rigorously for intention and and purity of purpose.

The Spinners weren't really my cup of tea, but i could see they had a contribution to make

I recollect a chat I had with MC at the time. I said well i heard the Spinners sing the Bleacher Lass of Kelvinhaugh the other day on Pebble Mill at One (a popular tv programme). Where else will people hear the song?

Carthy said, Well I sing it.

I said, Yes, but you don't get asked to sing it on Pebble Mill at One.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Bert
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 01:29 PM

Corporal punishment should be mandatory for all teachers and officials in a school where bullying is tolerated.

It would stop bullying immediately if the headmaster was to find himself on the receiving end of a whacking.

Oh, and when they grow up they become ass kissers or thieves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 02:04 PM

Nice one, Alan. No - not quite right, but it'll do me;-)

I went to see the Spinners at the Free Trade Hall in Manchester around 1969. I think Dillon had been there a bit before. I seem to remember someone stood up and shouted "kudos". Or maybe I'm getting some events mixed up...

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,999
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 06:10 PM

Years ago when my eldest daughter was in Grade 1, she was being bullied by two girls her age. Spoke with the teacher and the school principal. No satisfaction. So, I taught my daughter how to punch and do a good round kick. I was at least three times her weight and she got used to giving good kicks and punches that hurt, even on me. She and I went back to the teacher and I told my daughter to defend herself. I then ripped a punch at her which she side slipped. She returned a double punch to my chest and did a good round kick to my head which I blocked with an open hand. It made a loud smack sound when it connected. I asked my daughter to leave the room which she did. I agreed that whether she was or wasn't being bullied, my (and her mother's) instructions to our daughter were that if she was hit or bullied again by either or both girls, she had our permission to respond. The bullying ceased. We then took a martial art together. She later went on to fight in tournaments and win more often than not.

In high school she entered a group of kids who were teasing and being really mean towards a student who had a visible special need. She was pushed by the ring leader whom she bounced the off some lockers and the group disbursed quickly. On one other occasion a fellow who was showing off to a few of his friends placed his hand on her breast. She punched his chest, stomach and snap-kicked his groin in something under two seconds, then walked away. They are the only two times she ever got into fights. To this day she's my main music fan and I'm her main fan, period.

When schools don't handle the bullying, I think it's necessary for parents to teach the kids how to do so. The aforementioned method will not work for all people, but that's what school boards are for if schools don't take care of it.

imo


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 06:26 PM

Not that many years ago, when my daughters were around 13 (sorry but 'grade 1' doesn't mean anything to me) they were bullied by the majority of people in their class. Just because they were twins. Not wanting to give the impression that violence was the answer to anything what was I supposed to do but move them to an environment that did not teach them how to hurt people? Now, almost 15 years later, they can cope with most things that life throws at them. Without punching me or anyone else. Not saying that you are wrong, Bruce, but it is just not the answer for everyone.

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 06:35 PM

There's the possibility of the person who's been bullied and found their strength then becoming a bully. I was afraid of that when I'd overcome the one who'd been after me.

I didn't though, and it's probably because those of us who've been bullied really hate bullying and are vigilant. 999, I like your daughter, even though I've never met her and likely never will.

IMO, being able to defend one's self and loved ones is a good thing. Most of those who are good at physically protecting themselves are less likely to ever have to use it... IMO


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 06:42 PM

I always feel that Clint Eastwood movies have much to teach us on this subject:-

1) Clint is in pretty good shape. Nicely turned out - good choice of sports coat and jumper.
2) He has got several big guns.
3) Public officials like Clints bosses are nasty pieces of work - weak morals, lacking in moral fibre, really complete arseholes who are bothersome to Clint, whom they SHOULD get down on their kness and thank for always saving the day with his big guns, and perfect dress sense.
4) Ugly people are up no good. By and large greasy little bastards much given to rude behaviour. Clint can spot them a mile off, thank goodness.
5) We need a few more like Clint to sort out the the ugly customers.
6) Get a big gun, improve your dress sense, go to the gym and work out. Clint has given you a blueprint - something to aim for. Bullies won't mess you about then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,999
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 07:06 PM

I agree, David, that "jaw jaw is better than war war."

My little gal is good at that, too. IMO, physical violence must always be a last resort. But there are times when the situation is past that. Your daughters sound like gems.


Thank you, Jeri.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 12:19 AM

Nice work, 999. I think you did a great thing for your daughter there, and it must have served her very well in many ways by now.

It's an approach that will work for some people, but not for others. Depends on their particular nature.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 12:44 AM

LH, that is the nicest thing you ever said to me. Thank you very much.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 02:01 AM

"There's the possibility of the person who's been bullied and found their strength then becoming a bully"

I'd reckon it's unlikely. Certainly, in my case, having been the kid that was bullied, and knowing what a crock of shit it is to be a bully's victim, a bully was the last thing I wanted to be. I couldn't be that ugly - it was (and is) anathema to me.

I don't recall anyone I know who was bullied becoming a bully themselves. Stronger, more self-assured certainly, but a bully? Nope.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 07:00 AM

Unfortunately, here in UK there seems to be a culture whereby the Police come down very hard on a person who defends himself with what they would term 'excessive force'. They seem more eager to arrest and punish a counter-attacker than the protagonist. Even when a burglar breaks in and is threatening (which by his very presence he is) one cannot hit, punch, attack with a weapon etc etc unless he makes the first move and one is in fear of ones life. People have actually been sent to court for ABH, GBH or assault etc for merely defending themselves against what they saw as a menacing attack. There is a move afoot now to reverse this attitude and to give the attacked more leeway in what they are allowed to do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 07:45 AM

Thay are indeed, Bruce and I am sure that your daughter has also learned, albeit in a different way, that if the bullies hold no power over their victims they cannot function. Thankfully you have brought up your daughter with the right values and, from what you say, she has become a well balanced person and a credit to her father:-)

I think a lot of people are missing the point though. I was lucky, I guess, in that physical violence, apart from on one occasion which was oddly unrelated, was not the issue. When faced with threat to life, limb or those dear to us there is only the fight or flight option. But most often bullying, certainly nowadays, is not a physical thing. It is psychological and, somethimes, more damaging than the fist or boot. The point is that given this situation there is another route. It needs to be pointed out that unless you allow the name calling and other tactics to affect you they cannot do any harm.

Let me give you an example. Right here on the Mudcat there are often cases of name calling and, even though it is not strictly allowed, personal abuse. I have never considered myself threatened by this. It doesn't matter. If half the people on here said I was a two headed baby eater from the planet Zog it wouldn't matter. I know the truth. The people I care about know the truth. I really could not give a toss about what anyone else thinks of me. OK, I know that when we were kids, other kids opinions did matter. But that was when I became most proud of my daughters; when they became adult enough to see that the trite and petty opinions of those who wish to abuse power do not matter. That was when the bullying stopped. It was not external influence. It was not relying on any action by the bullies. It came from within and, whatever else happens, nothing can cause them the same stress ever again.

What I find particularly sad is that there seem to be more and more people who cannot or will not see this. They insist that everything has an external cause. That everything bad must be someone else's fault. Yet, oddly enough, all good things seem to be created by themselves. It is the blame society. Once we stop blaming other people and see that everything is within our own power then I am sure our full potential can be reached. Sadly it will not happen while people listen to those who are loudest and complain the most:-(

One final thought, which seems unrelated but, in a way, sums up the difference in attitude between the complainers and the do-ers. I believe it was the comedian Norman Wisdom, who when told that his career had had some lucky breaks, said "I have indeed been lucky. The funny thing is that the harder I work, the luckier I seem to become."

Classic

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 10:54 AM

I wrote: "There's the possibility of the person who's been bullied and found their strength then becoming a bully."
I'd followed that with "I didn't though, and it's probably because those of us who've been bullied really hate bullying and are vigilant" which isn't quoted.
Backwoodsman wrote: "I'd reckon it's unlikely. Certainly, in my case, having been the kid that was bullied, and knowing what a crock of shit it is to be a bully's victim, a bully was the last thing I wanted to be. I couldn't be that ugly - it was (and is) anathema to me."
So we're saying the same thing in different ways. The vigilance I mentioned meant I was concerned with not crossing that line between defense and antagonization in my own behavior. I was afraid of becoming what I hated. Perhaps the fact I was concerned about it meant it was unlikely to ever happen.

I believe some people don't worry about it, and they get even with the people who picked on them by picking on someone else. It's what they learn from being bullied.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 11:35 AM

I was a timid kid at school and was mildly bullied a few times. On a couple of occasions I hit the bully and the bullying stopped. I learned that violence can occasionally solve problems but, mercifully, that lesson didn't turn me into a violent person.

Early in my career I worked in a department which was full of some of the most likeable people that you could hope to meet. There was a fair amount fo silliness and even horseplay and a bit of mild teasing. I noticed, though, that some people couldn't seem to cope with even the mildest teasing and some of them even claimed that they were being bullied. One lad had a voice which sounded like a well known TV personality and someone once remarked on this. Instead of laughing it off he 'went ballistic'. This over-reaction seemed to trigger a counter-reaction in some people and, in consequence, he suffered more teasing than he would have done if he had laughed off the intial remark (which sounded quite innocuous to me and, in that department, 'par for the course').

In my next job I encountered some 'real' bullies - and because they were in senior management they caused me some problems - but that's another story.

It all goes to show that one man's bullying may be another man's silly teasing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 11:53 AM

Bruce, you did great by your daughter! Walk softly but carry a big stick sometimes is the only path that can be taken!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 12:08 PM

I think that is pretty spot on, Shimrod. And, unfortunately, teachers cannot win whatever they seem to do so I have a lot of sympathy for their plight. If they see some petty teasing, should they let it go or risk being jumped upon by some parent who sees it as a excuse for their childs poor performance at school? It's a really tough and thankless job nowadays and one that I am glad I didn't go in to. The difference between petty teasing and bullying is plain to see provided that your view is not clouded by your own agenda.

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 12:30 PM

nobody ever bullied me even though i was the smallest in my class ,why because i took boxing lessons.
some kid decided to pick a playground fight with me, I got him quick with a left upper hook, no more trouble after that.
internet bullying is more difficult to cope with, and I have a persistent problem with someone who used to be a member of this forum


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 12:38 PM

Like I said before though, Dick. That type of bullying can only get to you if you let it - Which I am sure you don't. While a quick uppercut and really hurt an internet message can only hurt you if you let it. If there is anything any of us can do to help though - Just ask.

Cheers

Dave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 05:21 PM

"...While a quick uppercut and really hurt an internet message can only hurt you if you let it...."



I disagree. Internet messages often hurt more. Why? Because lies and unpleasantness are left there for all to see, for a very long time. The bullying is not just amongst a few people in private who eventually move on from each other's lives. It is there for everyone to see, and many will read terrible untruths put down about a person, without ever knowing that person in real life, without never even knowing that the words printed about them are wrong, vile or complete and utter lies.

That is why it is SO important to either speak out against such posts, or else get them removed for ever.

When a person has an entire gang of people using them to while away their boredom, create 'a bit of fun', or to twist as many other minds against that person as possible, then it becomes a witch hunt, and that can be very sinister for the person involved...

Internet bullying can lead, and HAS led, to suicides in many people.

To know your bully is bad enough. To NOT know them, to have 'invisble' bullies appearing out of nowhere, can take any person to a very dark place....and when a whole gang of invisibles turn up and join together to chase their prey around the internet, it can be the most disturbing thing you can imagine, because those thoughts, those words, the lies, the insults written about a person, or his/her family can go deep inside their minds.

Don't EVER think that 'internet bullying' is OK, or that it will only affect people 'if they let it'....because I can tell you firsthand that the exact opposite is true. It affects you very badly indeed.


It is happening a great deal amongst young people, particularly those at school...and even President Obama is now speaking out against it.

Once, the bullying stopped when you got home, and you felt you had somewhere 'safe', sanctuary, a place where you could relax...Now the bullying goes on 24/7, in phone calls, in texts, on the internet..even with entire pages being created to bully someone, with the most despicable things imaginable being put down about them..

It is a major, major problem, and all internet site owners should be very aware of it, of the people who do it and how it can be stopped dead in its tracks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 05:34 PM

I will simply repeat that I could not care less what anyone who means nothing to me says. Nothing on the internet has ever hurt me nor will it. Annoy me greatly, yes. Hurt me, no. A man a great deal wiser than me put it far better than I ever could.

If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you.
If all men count with you but none too much.


I am greatly puzzled by those who, knowing how hurt they will be if they view the forums that are 'bullying' them, keep going back to those forums as if in need of some sort of masochistic fulfilment. Schools cannot be avoided forever. Town centres are places that must occasionaly be visited. We cannot even bypass every dark and dangerous alley. But nothing could force anyone onto a chat room unless they wanted to visit it. Nor does anyone have to open any mail they don't want to. There is no reason whatsoever to keep visiting somewhere you dislike. So why do it?

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: peregrina
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 05:40 PM

David, it sounds to me-and forgive me if I haven't read all your posts as carefully as I should--as if you are blaming targets for their vulnerability?
   The world has all different kinds of people and I, for one, think vulnerability is an essential part of humanity.
    Some people are lucky to be thick-skinned, or to be able to ignore hurtful provocation, but not all are. And who would stand up against all kinds of injustice and dehumanizing treatment if those who were hurt did not make their voices heard?

I would like to hear more stories about how people have defeated bullies--thanks for those already posted...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 05:47 PM

I can assure you that the knowledge that somewhere out there are fake pages, bearing your name, or photos, as many of us in here have to put up with on FB, is horrible, particularly when those pages purport us to be something we are not.

I can also assure you that young people who have similar fake pages, made in their names, or other pages made where their 'friends' sign up to shite all over them on the internet, cause GREAT distress. And the people concerned are told about these pages, even if they don't have computers, just to ensure that they know what's being said about them on the internet..

It's a shocking, and horrible, phenomenen (can't spell that)..It does great damage to those involved and it should be made a crime, to be honest, with a prison sentence involved, imo, because that would make people think twice before they think they have the freedom to do these things.

Just because it doesn't affect you, doesn't mean it does not affect others. It does. And some people it affects very, very deeply indeed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 05:52 PM

you are blaming targets for their vulnerability? Far from it, peregrina and I have said, on both discussions on bullying and other equaly distasteful topics, that victims cannot and must not ever be blamed. All I am saying is that there is a defence against bullies involving not letting them get to you. It would not work for everyone but some may consider it.

As far as cyber-bullying is concerned, I am simply posing the question of why - when someone finds a particular forum or chat room or whatever so offensive - do they keep visiting it? It is still not their fault that they are being bullied but keeping out of the buliies reach is one form of defence that I would consider.

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 06:01 PM

If anyone was to look up 'Dave Polshaw' on the internet you would find some interesting examples of 'me' and 'my family' in support of certain organisations to whom I hold no sympathies whatsoever. Likewise for other members of Mudcat, including dead ones!

As I said before. Annoying, yes. Hurtful, no.

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 06:24 PM

Liz, meet my friend Dave. Dave, meet my friend Liz.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 07:58 PM

Dang. All the scrapping going on and I neglected to wish you a Happy Birthday, Liz. It's past midnight in England, but not in Canada. I hope you had a wonderful day.

Bruce
    For many months, Mr. Gnomo and Ms. Cornish have not been allowed to address or respond to one another. They are incapable of carrying on a mature conversation with each other. For some reason, Mr. Gnomo decided to try to pick a fight today. His posts were deleted. Mr. Gnomo is hereby banned from this thread, and from all threads initiated by Lizzie Cornish.
    -Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: ollaimh
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 09:33 PM

i grew up in a culture in rural nova scotia that didn't exactly prepare me for the nig bad world. there wasn't much bullying at the time. and people challenged nasty gossip and roughing others. regularily. so making my way beyond the ottawa river to anglo canada i was astonished by the reluctance to challenged natsy gossip--usually the kind of things that were obviously made up, and the tencdency to say thast anyone being pushed around physically must have done something.

so i am not surprised that the cops in the uk tend to ignore the attacker and go after those who react. i think there are long term social cultural reasons for this. the british empire and its philosophy of laissez faire capitalism and the american continuance of that attempt at worl dominance has militarizedthe angloworld. this is reflected in the extreme class discrimination and in the obeidence to authority. franco gaelic culture doesn't generally trust authority having grown up on the wrong end of the gun.

the issue i am trying to bring to the attention of all here is that there is a definate tendence among anglos to attack any diffderence and demonize it--this rarely happens in the non anglo communites i live in. here on mudcat my poor tyoing haqs been attacked--i have a couple of major handicaps and have a couple of languages. that bullying. an obvious difference must be attacked.

now as to the folk world i found the socail structure of the folk scene in canada beyond the ottawa river to be totally based on bullying. in the vancouver folk song society--the folk ss(some people have no self awareness), i spent years being harrassed for every little diference. they took my differences--which didn't seem a big deal to me--as a personal insult. i eventually got yhe message and gave up. they rigged the performance schedules so only the in crowd got to perform, they bad mouithed me and any other non anglo german(they have a germaic element--not too different on these issues from anglos), they used to attack any workinng class guy as obviously sexist--they were very well healled middle clas who had never struggled for a meal in their lives. they even organized movenment to expell people--a friend calls it the urge to purge, bulimia on the left. and waht a happy coincidence that all the people they drove out were jews or gaels!and working class jews or gaels at that!

so don't kid yourself. if you are criticizing some one in your folk group ask a few questions of your self as to whayt harm would occur if you left them alone.

in toronto i couldn't get in the front door of the folk groups. i was good enough to get an auditioned busking licence for twelve years but those who failed those same auditions kept the door of their folk get togethers shut. the anglo buskers were routinely threwtening and making homophobic remarks. if i had a dollar for every time i was called a frog fag by in crowd folkies out busking i'd have a hun dred bucks! (i have fench last name) . and they never belive the non anglo victims. in fact it is one of the ever present hallmarks of anglo society that they do not accept the experiences of non anglos, don't believe a word they say.

again bullying is the product of cultures. anglo cutlure is one of the most agressive and violent in history. they have made war in every corner of the globe. they do posture at being moral and ethical, but thats horse manure. look a little deeper.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 04:53 AM

Thank you, Bruce. x

ollaimh, I'm sorry for the way you've been treated and hope that life is a little happier these days.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Penny S.
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 05:28 AM

I wonder if any of the anglo tendency to bully perceived by ollaimh is linked to school culture - or similar in German history. I spent some time in a private school where there was bullying, and a staff enforced culture that what happened at school stayed at school, and telling one's parents was sneaking and beneath contempt.

I was at the bottom. I was no good at games or ballet. I was a Day Girl, whose father was not in the local Chamber of Commerce. Day girls were lower than boarders. There were other subtleties subdividing the boarders. I was not aware of most of these distinctions, or any need to take account of them. I thought people were equal.

When I moved to the local Technical School, due to extracurricular activities by the school headmaster, I dreaded bullying because of having been somewhere posh and having a posh voice. Not a shred of it - people were equal, unless they behaved stupidly, judged on themselves not on some perceived status.

English society is riddled with this sort of rubbish. In private and public schools. In grammar schools which emulate them. In the class divisions which make it possible for the "upper" lot not to see those "below" them. Unless those inferiors do not recognise their place - when the bullying starts.

Not that it doesn't happen in other environments as well.

Years ago, I read a piece in the Guardian of all places, which I was gobsmackedly unable to respond to. The writer claimed that bullying at school was necessary so that people would learn their place in society for adult life, and people should learn to put up with it. I had a shrewd idea where the writer felt her place was. Not only I, but no-one picked up on this concept of human society requiring a pecking order to function. (My typing omitted the n in that word, and I almost left it.)

I wonder how much "putting people in their place", dealing with "uppity" folk of perceived lowly status, and demanding "respect" has to do with the problem, and whether this might be why authorities are slow to respond...afraid their own status may be threatened.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 01:29 PM

Bullying has been institutionalized for many years by religious groups.
Children are regularly abused psychologically and physically for their
"rebellious" questioning of their parent's insanity.

"Spare the rod and spoil the child" is not in the Bible but from Dr. Johnson.
Still it is used as a device for bible reference by parents to bully children.

Children learn to be abused by their parents, siblings, teachers, and other authority figures. Do you wonder why it is so rampant?

BTW what happens when one nation bullies another? Does this trickle down?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 02:00 PM

I've observed many parents being bullied by their children recently! I certainly wouldn't say that many parents in UK are totally in control of their offspring. But I agree there are a few cruel and repressive adults around who may bully children. I would say that most bullying comes from peers, at school, in the street and online. And from 'colleagues' at work. In comparison, parental bullying isn't as common. But that's just a personal opinion, not backed up with data.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 01:58 AM

Bullying at school as far as it affected me ended in the same way as for kendall and Guest999. Never bullied at primary school, it started when I went to the senior or high school. A group of four and I took some right pastings, but each time I learned a little bit more and each time it got harder for them. A couple of them felt tempted to have a go on their own and then they in turn got the shock of their lives, I was never bullied again.

Someone stated further down this thread that the Police in the UK will pick on the person who reacts. This is incorrect, the Police in effect are simply doing their jobs and following procedure. Straight from the "horse's mouth" this is what I have been told by Police Officers whenever this is discussed (People breaking and entering, people causing criminal damage to your property, personal assaults), if you as a citizen have resorted to physical violence in order to protect either yourself or your property of course you will be questioned, there are after all as many sides to the story as there are participants and witnesses. The one phrase that you must use is that you considered that you used "reasonable force". The second you mention that phrase it is entered in the copper's note book and that is you off the hook. The policeman's own opinion is meaningless and irrelevant after all he was not there. It comes down to your word against the person who has:

1: Broken into your house (Poor ground he shouldn't be there)
2: Damaged your property (The damage is there in plain sight for all to see, you have a reason for being on the scene the perpetrator has not, again he is on poor ground)
3: Assault (Well witnesses will atest to the fact that it wasn't you who was throwing your weight about)

So remember the phrase "Officer the situation was this, etc, etc, and I used what I considered to be reasonable force to protect myself against what I considered a real threat"


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 03:13 AM

Teribus, despite that we have not always agreed, I have respected you and understood from whence you came. You are an honest and good man.

Few here have ever known you as you really are: a tough and gentle person at once with a smart way of thinking of life. I loved you then, and I love you now, Reuben James.

Bruce


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 03:43 AM

There was another form of disturbing bullying that I read about a few weeks ago and it was on the news and in the paper about vulnerable elderly people being targeted, preyed on and raped in their home. Apart from being an horrendous crime it must be the lowest kind of bullying ever, although all forms is hell enough for the victim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 03:56 AM

I'm sure many old folks get bullied in so-called Care Homes too, Patsy....sadly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: banjoman
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 07:23 AM

My own experience suggests that bullies dont stop until they are confronted with some of their own medicine. I was constantly bullied by 2 brothers when I was about 10 to the extent that I avoidedwalking down our road as I had to pass their house. One day i just happened to have my cricket bat with me when they started. Suffice to say that they never bullied me again However their parents came to our house to complain that I had "Attacked" their sons. Short shrift given by my mum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 07:54 AM

It's interesting how parents of bullies often rush to the defence of their 'innocent' little darlings. A girl called Julie once buried her fingernails up to the hilt in my face because I'd coloured a picture in my exercise book in the same colours as HER picture. My mother was horrified when I got home (I was eight years old at the time) She was even more horrified when Julie's mother arrived at the door, red with anger. Julie was 'upset' about the 'copying'. Even when shown my multi-punctured face and the blood, she continued to rant at my poor mother. Finally, (my mum was Irish, and had a cut-off point with regard to temper) my mother exploded and terrified the woman, who fled. I've seen this often with parents of my pupils, they can't imagine their darlings as anything but wee angels. I have to add, I was the most timid, skinny and inoffensive little thing in the school, and certainly not one to start trouble!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Penny S.
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 08:05 AM

The little girls seem to have been brought up with a sense of entitlement, so it is no surprise when mothers rush to defend their princesses.

Copying a colour worth going round in anger??!! Oh my goodness words fail me maybe I should use the technique Diane Wynne Jones used in Wilkin's Tooth and use colours to say what one earth the purple orange magenta was she thinking!!!

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 08:10 AM

Exactly, Penny. But as an adult and looking back with more insight, I remember that Julie had two very glamorous older twin sisters called Odelle and Odette, both nurses. I wonder now if the darling Julie felt sidelined by these blonde bombshells and it made her over-react. Not an excuse, but maybe a reason!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Penny S.
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 08:34 AM

It's the mother's reaction that appalled me! The copying reaction from Julie wasn't a surprise. Many's the time I've had to explain that in primary school, copying doesn't diminish the originator's work, and that anyway, teacher's usually know it's been done, and by whom.

Mind you, when an adult complains that his plagiarism is OK because it's fair practice to rehash work delivered in a lecture to a local astronomy society without attribution, and that he's being unfairly accused with bizarre accusations aimed by a sniper a long way off... Ooops, I ought to attribute that phrase, but I won't... copying becomes a different issue.

But a colour...!

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 09:00 AM

During a test in primary school, I once put my arm around my work, as the girl next to me was copying. I could see the teacher watching, so I knew she'd get into trouble, probably me as well.

For that I suffered 2 years of hell.

She managed to convince every child in my form to ignore me completely, pass me by, not look at me, not speak a word to me.   In private, on their own, some kids would sidle up to me and tell me they *did* actually like me, but were afraid of Jane.

I learnt a lot in those 2 years. I learnt to stand outside 'the group' for a start, and watch how one person controlled so many others. I learnt about hypocrisy, about people who really didn't matter one iota to me, at the end of the day, for they had no empathy about my feelings.

I learnt that being alone was actually pretty darn good, because there was no one to hurt you, judge you, get others against you, even if it was so often very lonely.

I learnt that I loved animals far more than I loved human beings, because animals never went out of their way to hurt you, indeed, they could somehow sense when you needed a friend, giving you such love when it was needed so badly.

I became very indifferent to all those folks, when they finally decided, after Jane had left to go to another school, that they'd try to be friends with me again. I learnt about folks who take your trust, your friendship, your loyalty, then screw it up and stamp on it.

I learnt what a terrible thing bullying is, how it lasts, stays with people for a very long time...and how callously indifferent so many people are to the deep damage it so often causes.

All the knowledge I gained back then has remained with me throughout my life.

When I see bullying, I wade in there to stop it, to show the bullies up, to stand fast and hard against them, because I have been the person on the end of vicious remarks, or total silence..and I know how it feels.

And....I think that many people who've been severely bullied as children actually turn into Great Grown-Ups because they're so often very kind and empathetic.

I often wonder if the people who chose to stand with Jane ever think about what they did, how they behaved, if they caused any damage, hurt or something far worse.

I'm very proud that I never bullied a soul when I was at school..and I got more love from the school rabbit than I did from many of my peers.

Things got better for me when two girls arrived in the 4th Year. They were twins. Not just twins, but the most beautiful twins you could imagine with faces and bodies to die for. Needless to say, the girls hated them, the boys loved them..and they found life very hard to start with. We all shared a birthday, and I ended up befriending them pretty fast, because I could see how upset they were with the frosty frozen reception they'd got from other girls. We remained really good friends throughout the rest of school and for a while beyond too...but then each of us went our separate ways.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 09:08 AM

Michelle and Barack Obama's video on Bullying

It's good to hear them say they want to put a stop to the feeling that bullying is a form of 'rite of passage'. I agree with that totally. That belief has done more to prolong bullying than anything else, imo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 11:06 AM

I agree Penny, to go round to someone's house because their little girl copied a colour is almost psychotic!
Isn't it interesting that a lot of us on this thread remember with horrible clarity instances when we were cruelly bullied, even decades after the events, and even though we are now adults. It shows how the scars run very deep, and possibly damage one for life. Bullying IS serious and harmful.
Lizzie, your twin friends remind me of two girls who became my constant companions during Grammar School. They were both immensely fat and jolly, almost like twins in looks, and both called Susan. My two Susans were excellent bodyguards and protectors, but we must have looked extremely funny together, I was skeletally thin and tiny, they were massive and so fat! But thanks to them I felt very secure at school. No-one bullied us!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 11:11 AM

They sound rather lovely, Eliza. :0)   

I made an error earlier, as all of this happened in Secondary School, not Primary as I said at the beginning of my post. It was in the 2nd year, as it used to be called back then...Year 9 now, I think...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Penny S.
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 02:34 PM

Bullying phrases, and my sort of response:

"It was just a joke..."      No it wasn't, and if you begin an excuse with it was just, I don't want to hear the rest.
"It was only a joke..."      As above.
"He can't hack it..."       Why should he have to?
"He can't take it..."       As above.

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me." If your victim chooses to say that, fine, but it's not for you to say. Broken bones mend quite fast, but the words can go on for years and years until people are adults. I still remember the Hearty Jokers club and how miserable they made me. Making me miserable was the joke.

"Finders keepers, losers weepers."   That phrase does not make it OK to make the losers weep, it's still theft if you know who it belongs to. Do you want to make people cry? (Not to be used if this is the sort of child who does!)

Those sort of phrases really make me angry - along with "I was only, I was just...)

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 03:04 PM

I agree, Penny. Self-justification goes on into adulthood and among nations. "We were 'just' cleansing the country of..." etc. I have heard of domestic violence perpetrators who say to their victims "Look what you made me do to you!" These phrases and statements reveal that the bullies feel perfectly justified in their actions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 03:34 PM

If Obama says he is opposed to bullying then tell him to stop occupying Afghanistan and bring those troops home. Same with Iraq. He has no moral standing as long as he is conducting a foreign policy that bullies other nations or the people in them.

So far, his foreign policy has offered the same justifications that are aforementioned
with regard to bullies on the school ground.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 04:39 PM

"If Obama says he is opposed to bullying then tell him to stop occupying Afghanistan and bring those troops home. Same with Iraq. He has no moral standing as long as he is conducting a foreign policy that bullies other nations or the people in them." - Stringsinger

Well it all started during the Presidency of William Jefferson Clinton, was continued during the Presidency of George Walker Bush and has continued during the Presidency of Barack Hussein Obama. So let us take a look at what all this "Bullying" has accomplished:

1: Iraq
Taking the period 1979 - 2003 and comparing it to 2003 - 2011 the daily average death toll of civilians has been reduced by 87%.

Per capita income has increased from US$507 to over US$3,000

Sanctions have been lifted and the country is thriving in terms of trade and oil/gas exports. You have "revolutions" in Tunisia; Libya; Egypt; Syria; Bahrain & in the Yemen. No protests or trouble in Iraq

2: Afghanistan
Taking the period 1978 - 2001 and comparing it to 2001 - 2011 the daily average death toll of civilians has been reduced by 97%

5,000 children in fulltime education in September 2001, over 8 million in fulltime education today.

The infrastructure of the country is being rebuilt instead of being destroyed. Massive foreign investment is helping in creating industries. The country's first railway is being built. The changes are dramitic and all to the ultimate long term benefit of the people, the country, the nation and the region.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: ollaimh
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 04:05 PM

people ave alked here about facing and fighting the bully, and that's been done by me--when i wad younger i had morew bruised and contusions than i had brains , as a friend of mine put in a song. however, in my experience in the adult folk world thats it for you. a bully can get away with any kind of race and ethnic taunt but if you face em dowen or offer to fight here and nwo, my experience is the whole crowd then ostracises you. i speaking of england and anglo canada, in the us folkies aren't as class bigoted and want to hear "new " celtic songs(i have an extensive repitoire of nova scotia and new foundland songs that they often haven't heard down in the us. but vancouver folk circle and toronto folk circle if you defend yourself your demonized as a "mad man" .

all st the same time i was playing full time professionally and for fun with portuguese greek, and a little arabic music communities--all of whom only cared to hear great fun music. the anglo folkies seem to establish a pecking order and complex rules--that they don't tell you about. and call it ettiquette or good manners, and if you don't know them then the talent free can get rid of the annoying talented musicians. in toronto and vancouver they had "official" nova scotia. newfoundland or acadien musicians", all not from those cultures. they hated to see some one like me from franco gaelic culture. now it took me years to realize this. but the same thing happened over and over done by the "official"folkies.

and making fun of someones name is about as low as it gets without violence--and thats happened on mudcat--i had a guy--jim ladd--making fun of me useing a gaelic handle. he pretended he was "steeped" in cape breton culture. and knew no gaelic, nor evern recognized gaelic when he saw it. and on that thread few saw his attack and slurs as wrong.my birth cetificate and baptismal certifivaqte are diffewrenct--very long story. i get really tyired of people looking at my baptismal certificate name JEAN and saying thats a girls name. my birth c says john. that sort of thing was routine when i was young and not as rare now as i'd like to see. equally making fun of a gaelic handle or a tirtured english translation of a french last name(i got one) its sleazy, it shouldn't happen in the folk world, but it does and those who do it all come from one ethnic group. most anglos have a powerfull sense of entitlement and demand preferentiasl treatement where ever they go. that gets raw and in your face busking. there are a few nutty immigrants out busking but generally the immigrants cooperate. in tyoronto especially, the anglos arte constantly demanding special treatment. they don't think its special, they just don't understand why we don't get the f.... out of their way. in the ttc they had a buskers united group that licked out most of the immigrants--for raising issues around the use of threats against other musicians. they spent teir time discussing setting upo "rules" essentially so they wouldn't have to do what every body else does--talk as equalls to each other.

then christamass would come and they wouldn't understand how i keep getting such good spots. well over the years i helped those who cooperated with me--and they helped me in return. but the anglo buskers help no one outside their ethnic and social group. and never believe that their friends would ever threaten anyone.

i found this when i busked in london as well. the french and gypsies would cooperate the english would tell you to f... off. when i was young i went west to work in mining and drilling, again all the immigrants and the eastern canadians had to band together. we had to fistfight to keep our jobs or hang in a group to avoid the bullying--then the anglos would get pissed thast we were a gang. dammed if you do and dasmmed oif you don't. luckily there are quite a few easterners and quebecers out there in drilling miningand blasdting and all they cared about was getting the job done ans getting the bonuses so i could get work there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 04:19 PM

I've had similar experiences to your's Ollaimh. The part about the names really struck a chord with me. A lot of people have given me a
hard time about my name as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: ollaimh
Date: 06 May 11 - 02:20 PM

now i do wish to say that american folkies are no where so difficult as anglo canadians and english. when a decent musician shows up with new songs from a culture they don't know well they mostly want to listen. so please don't mistake me.

i remain astonished how racist towards the irish maost english remian. i didn't understand what they were talking about when i was young--that's when i bothered to go to english folk clubs. they used to say that the irish starved in the famine becaue they didn't know enopgh to eat fish even though the while island was surrounded by water. ignoring the presence of british soldiers for nine hundred years talking all the best land from the natives. tjat's pure nazi style revisionist history. if you talked back a little common sense they would octracise you. here on mudcat there were a line up of crypto fascists justifying the killing of peacefull protestors on bloody sunday--as though there is no conection between the british army killing irish civilians and nine hundred years of military colonialism. americans don't often do that.at least not ones aginst the confederacy.

however the next time i get"oh we know those songs" from some toronto or vancouver alglo i think i'll scream, because they probably have never actually heard them the way we actually play them. they were mostly not played in imitation ewan macoll and pete seager fashion.

now i'm old and don't much care. because when i want to play i can find an audience anywhere. i do decent professional renditions of traditional nova scotia and new foundland music and people love it, so i don't need the wednesday night stage for an ego boost.

i used the call the vancouver folk song society the wednesday might all stars. terrible musician after terrible musician, and they would rig the line up soo thaqt only the politically conected got to play. the last times i tried i was the first or second person to sign up to play for fout weeks in a row and didn't get on. they claimedit was an accident. ut their regulars never missed a night. again in the united states they like new musicians showing up and will bump people to hear something different.

in toronto they have folk get together. where yopu ave to |know someone to find out where it is. i got invited while busking or doing gigs but rarely had the might off. the few times i had the night off i phoned and was told, by the guy who invited me--he apparently forgot manners or his own invite--that they can't have strangers showing up. the one time i found out where it was and waqs finished busking and a gig that day before eight o'clock. i got to the door with my harp and bouzouki in a cart. the guy at the door told me they didn'tallow street beggars. he thought i was homelesws because of the cart. there was a woman in their with a harp twice the size of mine(i busk with a ds fh26--very portable) but i couldn't be allowed in. i don't argue any more i juts headed back to the subway--there was an empty spot nearb. after a few minutes apparently it was tqalked about and two guys came chasing after me--i'm not very fast with a cart and a cane and my bad legs. they wereas apoligetic as alglo torontoiand get i supose but i was insulted and i told them so. when ever i would see those bigots while bisking i would sing my own version of merrsheen durkin or somethin like that.

goodbye meersheen durkin(goodbye nova scotia)
i'm sick and tired of working(i'm sick and tired of pogey)
no more i;ll dig the pratties
no longer i'll be fooled.

as sure me name is parenteau
i'mm off to old toronto
where i'll dig no more the pratties
i'll be digging lumps of gold

or in vancouver

as sure as me name is hoover
i\m off to old vancouver
where down at the sea buss station
i\ll be digging lumps of gold


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 May 11 - 06:18 PM

Sometimes, the behavior of Mudcatters appalls me. We have a number of people who post here who may not fit into the conventional standards of human behavior. I think that psychologists might say that they suffer from Borderline Personality Disorder. They may not fit into the conventions of behavior; but they're still human beings, and they still have worthwhile things to say. We do what we can to keep these people under control without smothering them, but that's not good enough for some Mudcatters. Sometimes, they gang up and repeatedly bully the individual until they drive that person away, tailing the poor scapegoat like a pack of hounds. Occasionally, the bullies act like they're the martyrs, that they're oppressed by the misfit. I find that hard to believe.


A Mudcatter sent me this in a personal message, and gave me permission to post it. I think it teaches a good lesson:
    I see the thread "More than a little fed up" has disappeared. Too bad;
    I was working on a long message that I meant to add to that thread. I
    put so much work into it, I am reluctant to throw it away. Please read
    this and tell me what you think I should do with it.
    *
    Here's a story I heard long ago. I'm retelling it from memory, so it's
    probably not exactly the way I heard it:

    A Zen master was sitting with his disciples, leading them in guided
    meditation.

    A bird flew in through an open window. Someone moved to shoo the bird
    away, but this only frightened the bird, which then became
    disoriented, and it was unable to find the window to fly out again. It
    flew around vainly trying to escape, fluttering from one corner of the
    room to the next, near the ceiling. Some of the disciples thought,
    "This is disturbing our meditation. We ought to do something." So they
    got up and tried to catch the bird. They failed to catch it, and only
    made it more agitated. The poor bird flew around in a state of panic,
    crashing into walls and furniture.

    Finally the master said, "Everyone sit down and be quiet. Leave the
    bird alone."

    The disciples obeyed, reluctantly, because they couldn't believe they
    were going to accomplish anything that day, due to the disturbance.

    Exhausted, the bird landed on the back of a chair. It sat there
    quietly for a while, and then flew to the top of a bookshelf. Then it
    flew again and landed on the windowsill.

    At this point, the master clapped his hands abruptly, and the bird
    flew out the window and was not seen again.

    [Then the master summed up the experience with some pithy comment, but
    I am unable to remember what the comment was. I guess you'll have to
    figure it out for yourself.]


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,Folkiedave
Date: 07 May 11 - 09:22 AM

http://suburbdad.blogspot.com/2006/10/victim-bullies.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 07 May 11 - 11:46 AM

From the link that Folkiedave provided:
Gunsalus distinguishes between traditional, assertive bullies, who throw their weight around with bluster and force, and 'victim bullies,' who use claims of having been wronged to gain leverage over others.(pp. 123-4) Unlike simple passive-aggression, victim bullies use accusations as weapons, and ramp up the accusations over time. Unlike a normal person, who would slink away in shame as the initial accusations are discredited, a victim bully lacks either guilt or shame, honestly believing that s/he has been so egregiously wronged in some cosmic way that anything s/he does or says is justified in the larger scheme of things. So when the initial accusations are dismissed, the victim bully's first move is a sort of double-or-nothing, raising the absurdity and the stakes even more.
Yes, that description sounds familiar.

The funny thing is, in many of the arguments I see at Mudcat, the description fits people on both sides of the argument.

Case in point: In the first version of the "Zen" story, no-one is a victim, but the second version reframes it so that the disciples are portrayed as victims of the strange malicious "creature."

How do you get people to stop thinking of themselves as victims? It's one of the great mysteries of the age.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 07 May 11 - 04:32 PM

Teach them four words..hey knock it off and tell them to use it unless there is severe physical violence possible as a result.

Do not give free passes to people who are presumed to never be bullies, and that means many women, including mothers, wives, live ins, supervisors, coworkers etc. Be prepared to leave any bullying relationship, including that with parents, adult children, spouses. Oh but I love him. Too bad. If you stay with someone who is abusive because you love him, and you are keeping children hostage, you are part of the abuse period. If you are terrified for your life if you leave, that is a different story. You have to leave, you have to have protection, and he might (or she might) actually be successful in their threats. Try really hard not to get in those relationships, leave before you have children, get restraining orders. Do not make excuses for them. Do not believe them when they say theywill get help, change etc..let them do that first, be sober and nonviolent for a long period of time and probably maintain separate living quarters forever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 07 May 11 - 04:37 PM

It must be defined by society and the law that there are no "allowable" groups to bully or oppress..that means no bullying women, men, fat people, veterans, smaller, uglier, Protestants, those who have bullied your group in the psst, minorities or majorities. Part of bullying is instinctive and has to be restrained. I do not believe for one minute that children have to be taught it. They are naturals at it and it is a survival instinct. It has to be pointed out to them and there have to be consequences and there has to be surveillance of children. There also needs to be survieillance of places where teens congregate, push each other around, threaten each other, steal lunches, etc. Lots of nanny cams on street poles. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: LadyJean
Date: 07 May 11 - 11:17 PM

i was bullied in grade school. I kicked one of the little creeps in the groin. It didn't stop him, or any of the other little creeps.

I know several of them were the offspring of small time crooks. I'm afraid I enjoyed reading about one little guttersnipe's family going to jail. They didn't do it all at once. Mom worked for the city and got caught with her hand in the till. Pop owned a bar, and thought liquor laws applied to someone else. Grandpa was a fence. They were nice, respectable, middle class people. Who thought the law applied to someone else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Penny S.
Date: 08 May 11 - 03:33 AM

Something that has bothered me recently has been the description of certain bullying activities as "hate crime" which is therefore supposed to get more immediate and effective support from the police. The cases in the news have been bullying of the disabled, both physically and mentally different from others. While I think that the recent cases have been appalling - one led to the suicide of a mother who killed her daughter in order to escape - there is an implication that if there is an obvious reason for the abuse, such as disability, religion or race, the bullying is worse, and therefore demands more action. So if someone suffers from neighbour abuse for no obviously labelable reason, they might not expect support from the police as readily as those with a recognised reason for the "hate".

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 08 May 11 - 11:20 PM

My sons were bullied to and from school everyday. They were told by the school teacher and principal that if they fought back they would be kicked out of school for a week. I told them to enjoy their vacation every chance they got.

The bullying stopped shortly after that.

D


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: mg
Date: 09 May 11 - 01:17 AM

I have seen so ;much idiocy in schools around this particular issue that I just can't work in them. Perhaps everything has changed, but Seattle schools in the 1980s were such hotbeds of abuse and kids picking on each other and principals and teachers looking the other way. I would report stuff and they would give some inane response. I should have gone straight to police in some cases. Things are probably better now but they were repositories of bullying and enabling and lack of responsibility. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: Ed T
Date: 09 May 11 - 07:22 AM

Ali G demonstrates bullying

:)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bullying
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 09 May 11 - 08:24 AM

I was at the receiving end of bullying in Primary school but it was solved and the girl in question's mother invited me to tea and some other event and then on a regular basis. It did work in that case. The girl's parents were divorcing at that time, it was in the 60's and not as commonplace as now but I realise it must have been a confusing time for her back then. Can it be solved if both parents of the bully and victim co-operate more like this today? For the record when we later met again both of us due to leave our Secondary schools she turned out to be such a nice girl. I appreciate it might not be as simple as that in every case.


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