Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 21 Nov 23 - 04:12 AM

I just remembered that "Whup Jamboree" is another song on this pattern.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 17 Oct 23 - 03:38 PM

Steve Gardham wrote: FWIW I think you have a pretty good choice for origin with Cannibal Islands.

The melody certainly seems to have been widely used in Australia -- and almost all the New Zealand whalers shipped their oil via Australia. Broadsides/songster texts from Australia and New Zealand known to use the tune include

The Settler's Lament (The Beautiful Land of Australia)
The Beautiful Coast of New Zealand (I wonder if that wasn't directly inspired by the preceding)
Going Kangarooing (a Charles R. Thatcher song)
The Indian Empire (another Thatcher piece)
Australian Humbug (yet another)
Dick Briggs from Australia (and another)

If Thatcher used the tune that many times, he must have thought absolutely everyone knew it -- it was easier to sell songs where people knew the tune. Although, of course, Thatcher came along after Weller Brothers was out of New Zealand.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 17 Oct 23 - 12:47 PM

Gibb Sahib wrote: Rambling Rover, however, doesn't match the scansion. One can sing Wellerman, Cannibal Islands, Coast of NZ, Coast of Australia (and Paddy on the Railway, and *kind of* Golden Vanitee) all to the same tune, but not Rambling Rover. So, I should add that detail.

Just as a footnote: If you look at "Golden Vanity," there versions with four-line, five-line, and six-line verses, and the scansion changes. You can make just about any tune fit some version. :-) But I agree, the AAAB rhyme pattern is pretty characteristic (except in the versions with an internal chorus) -- the five-line and six-line versions typically have repeats or chorus lines.

And I agree: It's good to have seen the newspaper clipping about "Beautiful Coast of New Zealand." Although I didn't much doubt that one; Bailey/Roth compiled a lot of their stuff from newspapers. (In fact, one of them -- I'd have to look up which one -- worked entirely from newspapers and similar records.) I have strong doubts about the traditional status of most of the stuff in Bailey/Roth, but not the newspaper status. :-) It's when someone else claims a newspaper source that I get a little nervous.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 17 Oct 23 - 07:18 AM

In reply to Gibb Sahib:

FWIW, I did a fair amount of research on "The Beautiful Coast of New Zealand"; it's at https://balladindex.org/Ballads/BaRo017.html.

You're doing the same sort of thinking that I was doing last spring. I don't know how much it will help. But I hope you keep doing it. :-)

The other thing that might be worth trying is New Zealand census records. Can we verify the existence of "Frank Woods," who was the source Neil Colquhoun cited?

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GerryM
Date: 17 Oct 23 - 06:51 AM

Another song with AAAB is Rambling Rover:

But give me a ramblin' rover,
Frae Orkney down to Dover.
We will roam the country over
And together we'll face the world.

There's many that feign enjoyment
From merciless employment,
Their ambition was this deployment
From the minute they left the school.

And they save and scrape and ponder
While the rest go out and squander,
See the world and rove and wander
And are happier as a rule.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 17 Oct 23 - 07:39 PM

Steve,
Early sources (or at least *one*... I can't remember offhand how many I've seen) for "Paddy on the Railway" text say it's to be sung to the tune of Cannibal Islands.


Here's the quick example I could dig up:
https://books.google.com/books?id=-DRYAAAAcAAJ&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&dq=the%20

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 17 Oct 23 - 08:42 AM

Bob --

Ah! Well, great! At least we have the 1884 newspaper article now.

GerryM--

Thanks! I knew someone would come up with something.

Rambling Rover, however, doesn't match the scansion. One can sing Wellerman, Cannibal Islands, Coast of NZ, Coast of Australia (and Paddy on the Railway, and *kind of* Golden Vanitee) all to the same tune, but not Rambling Rover. So, I should add that detail.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 17 Oct 23 - 04:18 AM

Although the most promising thing now seems to be to find The Book, I have some additional thoughts.

I’m taking Tommy W’s memory of The Book with a grain of salt, in case looking for a book with all those characteristics fails. (He might have the memory of two different books mixed up.) What should the poem in the book look like? Will it have verses that obviously match “Wellerman”? Will it have the word “Weller” in it? Or will it just vaguely resemble the shape of the song?

On the chance that the resemblance between the poem and the resultant song is tenuous, my thought is to look at the poetic form. In any case, we need more clues to search for The Book.

So.: “Wellerman” has a pretty distinct AAAB rhyme pattern.

She had not been two weeks from shore
When down on her a right whale bore
The captain called all hands and swore
He'd take that whale in tow

How common is this? Probably others can think of many more examples than I, but I’d still guess they are few enough to call it distinctive.

On one hand, there’s “Golden Vanity.” Yet the other that comes to mind is “King of the Cannibal Islands” (dating from at least 1827)

Oh have you heard the news of late,
About a mighty king so great
If you have not 'tis in my pate,
The king of the Cannibal Islands

In searching for candidates for The Book, two of my note were: The Whalers, from the journals of a surgeon on a whaler (c.1837-1846), Félix Maynard, edited by Alexandre Dumas, and translated by F.W. Reed, 1937; and Pioneering in South Otago, by Fred Waite, 1948.

In the Introduction to The Whalers, Johannes C. Andersen quotes “the first two stanzas” from a whalermen’s song from the barque Magnet, though its source is not indicated. Andersen quotes the same stanzas in Place-names of Banks Peninsula: A Topographical History (1927), that time giving the source as M. G. Thomson, “A preliminary paper to the history of Otago,” 1886.

Along the coast the Magnet came,
With Captain Bruce—a man of fame,
But in his face there is no shame—
On the beautiful coast of New Zealand

Mr. Wiltshire sold to "Bloody Jack"
Two hundred of flour tied in a sack:
and the Maori carried it all on his back—
On the beautiful coast of New Zealand

At least one other work, Maori Music, quotes the same.

The actual source information is slightly different from what Andersen said. It is “A Preliminary Page to the history of Otago,” Evening Star [Otago], 25 October 1884.
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ESD18841025.2.35.5?end_date=25-10-1

The newspaper article gives the 2 additional stanzas:

Waikouaiti and Molyneux,
Tautuku and Otago, too—
If you do not want to be duped by a Jew—
Come to the beautiful coast of New Zealand.

Peter Shavatt has a shocking bad hat,
And old John Hughes, with his shocking bad shoes;
But for all of that they are having a chat—
On the beautiful coast of New Zealand.

Pioneering in South Otago quotes the third and fourth stanzas.

This is the song mentioned by Bob in February.

The New Zealand Folk Song website takes this song to have been a parody of “King of the Cannibal Islands.”

https://www.folksong.org.nz/beautiful_coast_of_NZ/index.html

Well, through an intermediary parody about Australia:

Upon the voyage the ship was lost.
In wretched plight I reached the coast,
And was very nigh being made a roast
By the savages of Australia.

https://books.google.com/books?id=g5EYAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA20&dq=“In+wretched+plight+I+


Many parodies were made of “Cannibal Islands,” and it wouldn’t be surprising that foreign visitors to NZ/Australia had the song in mind.

I’m not making a real argument here. I’m suggesting that we keep our eyes open for verse that conforms to this pattern.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Oct 23 - 01:46 PM

Great to have that confirmed, Gibb. Many thanks.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Oct 23 - 02:02 PM

FWIW I think you have a pretty good choice for origin with Cannibal Islands. Now you mention it I think 'Paddy on the Railway' may have been inspired by Cannibal Islands (Queen of Otaheite).

Of course there are many other tunes that fit this basic pattern but most of the ones I know go back several centuries to the 17th (False Bride/Week before Easter)(Which nobody can deny)etc.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Oct 23 - 01:46 PM

Great to have that confirmed, Gibb. Many thanks.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 17 Oct 23 - 07:39 PM

Steve,
Early sources (or at least *one*... I can't remember offhand how many I've seen) for "Paddy on the Railway" text say it's to be sung to the tune of Cannibal Islands.


Here's the quick example I could dig up:
https://books.google.com/books?id=-DRYAAAAcAAJ&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&dq=the%20

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 17 Oct 23 - 03:38 PM

Steve Gardham wrote: FWIW I think you have a pretty good choice for origin with Cannibal Islands.

The melody certainly seems to have been widely used in Australia -- and almost all the New Zealand whalers shipped their oil via Australia. Broadsides/songster texts from Australia and New Zealand known to use the tune include

The Settler's Lament (The Beautiful Land of Australia)
The Beautiful Coast of New Zealand (I wonder if that wasn't directly inspired by the preceding)
Going Kangarooing (a Charles R. Thatcher song)
The Indian Empire (another Thatcher piece)
Australian Humbug (yet another)
Dick Briggs from Australia (and another)

If Thatcher used the tune that many times, he must have thought absolutely everyone knew it -- it was easier to sell songs where people knew the tune. Although, of course, Thatcher came along after Weller Brothers was out of New Zealand.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Oct 23 - 02:02 PM

FWIW I think you have a pretty good choice for origin with Cannibal Islands. Now you mention it I think 'Paddy on the Railway' may have been inspired by Cannibal Islands (Queen of Otaheite).

Of course there are many other tunes that fit this basic pattern but most of the ones I know go back several centuries to the 17th (False Bride/Week before Easter)(Which nobody can deny)etc.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 17 Oct 23 - 12:47 PM

Gibb Sahib wrote: Rambling Rover, however, doesn't match the scansion. One can sing Wellerman, Cannibal Islands, Coast of NZ, Coast of Australia (and Paddy on the Railway, and *kind of* Golden Vanitee) all to the same tune, but not Rambling Rover. So, I should add that detail.

Just as a footnote: If you look at "Golden Vanity," there versions with four-line, five-line, and six-line verses, and the scansion changes. You can make just about any tune fit some version. :-) But I agree, the AAAB rhyme pattern is pretty characteristic (except in the versions with an internal chorus) -- the five-line and six-line versions typically have repeats or chorus lines.

And I agree: It's good to have seen the newspaper clipping about "Beautiful Coast of New Zealand." Although I didn't much doubt that one; Bailey/Roth compiled a lot of their stuff from newspapers. (In fact, one of them -- I'd have to look up which one -- worked entirely from newspapers and similar records.) I have strong doubts about the traditional status of most of the stuff in Bailey/Roth, but not the newspaper status. :-) It's when someone else claims a newspaper source that I get a little nervous.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 17 Oct 23 - 08:42 AM

Bob --

Ah! Well, great! At least we have the 1884 newspaper article now.

GerryM--

Thanks! I knew someone would come up with something.

Rambling Rover, however, doesn't match the scansion. One can sing Wellerman, Cannibal Islands, Coast of NZ, Coast of Australia (and Paddy on the Railway, and *kind of* Golden Vanitee) all to the same tune, but not Rambling Rover. So, I should add that detail.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 17 Oct 23 - 07:18 AM

In reply to Gibb Sahib:

FWIW, I did a fair amount of research on "The Beautiful Coast of New Zealand"; it's at https://balladindex.org/Ballads/BaRo017.html.

You're doing the same sort of thinking that I was doing last spring. I don't know how much it will help. But I hope you keep doing it. :-)

The other thing that might be worth trying is New Zealand census records. Can we verify the existence of "Frank Woods," who was the source Neil Colquhoun cited?

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GerryM
Date: 17 Oct 23 - 06:51 AM

Another song with AAAB is Rambling Rover:

But give me a ramblin' rover,
Frae Orkney down to Dover.
We will roam the country over
And together we'll face the world.

There's many that feign enjoyment
From merciless employment,
Their ambition was this deployment
From the minute they left the school.

And they save and scrape and ponder
While the rest go out and squander,
See the world and rove and wander
And are happier as a rule.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 17 Oct 23 - 04:18 AM

Although the most promising thing now seems to be to find The Book, I have some additional thoughts.

I’m taking Tommy W’s memory of The Book with a grain of salt, in case looking for a book with all those characteristics fails. (He might have the memory of two different books mixed up.) What should the poem in the book look like? Will it have verses that obviously match “Wellerman”? Will it have the word “Weller” in it? Or will it just vaguely resemble the shape of the song?

On the chance that the resemblance between the poem and the resultant song is tenuous, my thought is to look at the poetic form. In any case, we need more clues to search for The Book.

So.: “Wellerman” has a pretty distinct AAAB rhyme pattern.

She had not been two weeks from shore
When down on her a right whale bore
The captain called all hands and swore
He'd take that whale in tow

How common is this? Probably others can think of many more examples than I, but I’d still guess they are few enough to call it distinctive.

On one hand, there’s “Golden Vanity.” Yet the other that comes to mind is “King of the Cannibal Islands” (dating from at least 1827)

Oh have you heard the news of late,
About a mighty king so great
If you have not 'tis in my pate,
The king of the Cannibal Islands

In searching for candidates for The Book, two of my note were: The Whalers, from the journals of a surgeon on a whaler (c.1837-1846), Félix Maynard, edited by Alexandre Dumas, and translated by F.W. Reed, 1937; and Pioneering in South Otago, by Fred Waite, 1948.

In the Introduction to The Whalers, Johannes C. Andersen quotes “the first two stanzas” from a whalermen’s song from the barque Magnet, though its source is not indicated. Andersen quotes the same stanzas in Place-names of Banks Peninsula: A Topographical History (1927), that time giving the source as M. G. Thomson, “A preliminary paper to the history of Otago,” 1886.

Along the coast the Magnet came,
With Captain Bruce—a man of fame,
But in his face there is no shame—
On the beautiful coast of New Zealand

Mr. Wiltshire sold to "Bloody Jack"
Two hundred of flour tied in a sack:
and the Maori carried it all on his back—
On the beautiful coast of New Zealand

At least one other work, Maori Music, quotes the same.

The actual source information is slightly different from what Andersen said. It is “A Preliminary Page to the history of Otago,” Evening Star [Otago], 25 October 1884.
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ESD18841025.2.35.5?end_date=25-10-1

The newspaper article gives the 2 additional stanzas:

Waikouaiti and Molyneux,
Tautuku and Otago, too—
If you do not want to be duped by a Jew—
Come to the beautiful coast of New Zealand.

Peter Shavatt has a shocking bad hat,
And old John Hughes, with his shocking bad shoes;
But for all of that they are having a chat—
On the beautiful coast of New Zealand.

Pioneering in South Otago quotes the third and fourth stanzas.

This is the song mentioned by Bob in February.

The New Zealand Folk Song website takes this song to have been a parody of “King of the Cannibal Islands.”

https://www.folksong.org.nz/beautiful_coast_of_NZ/index.html

Well, through an intermediary parody about Australia:

Upon the voyage the ship was lost.
In wretched plight I reached the coast,
And was very nigh being made a roast
By the savages of Australia.

https://books.google.com/books?id=g5EYAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA20&dq=“In+wretched+plight+I+


Many parodies were made of “Cannibal Islands,” and it wouldn’t be surprising that foreign visitors to NZ/Australia had the song in mind.

I’m not making a real argument here. I’m suggesting that we keep our eyes open for verse that conforms to this pattern.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Helen
Date: 26 Apr 23 - 02:29 PM

Thanks Manitas. That explains it.

It just seemed to be an obscure sea shanty for them to be singing, although they appear to be more hippie than suit-&-tie types, so they may have heard it in a folk music or sea shanty event/situation.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Apr 23 - 02:14 PM

Did Tom Lewis write it


















/

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 26 Apr 23 - 01:40 PM

The song went viral on TikTok.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Helen
Date: 26 Apr 23 - 01:28 PM

I haven't read this discussion because I don't know the song or anything about it, but the thread title stuck in my head.

I was very surprised while watching the Lego Grand Masters show on Oz TV this week when two young male contestants sang a snippet of the song at the very end of the show on Tuesday night. The context is that they had built a ship and a pirate ship attacking it for the competition.

It makes me wonder how they knew that song.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: rich-joy
Date: 10 Feb 23 - 10:02 PM

At present there's a copy with ABE BOOKS, NZ, if you wanna pay the price. (checkout BookFinder.com) ......

Interesting to me as my great great grandparents came to Otago only 20 years later and raised a family whilst doing the gold, cattle, and pub owning thing.

R-J

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 10 Feb 23 - 09:17 PM

Thanks for your efforts, Bob and others. I look forward to the exciting conclusion!

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Feb 23 - 07:52 PM

Hi, Bob - I wrote to Jennifer Cutting at the Library of Congress and asked if somebody could check the book for us. Jennifer has located the book and should have it for us sometime during the week of Feb 19-25.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GUEST,Robert B. Waltz
Date: 06 Feb 23 - 06:29 PM

Above I cited Frank Tod, Whaling in Southern Waters as a book containing New Zealand whaling songs. It does; there are about fifteen. "Wellerman" is not among them.

But I have a truly interesting prospect based on something it says. It cites a book by an historian named Herries Beattie called The First White Boy Born in Otago, the first edition of which was published in 1939 -- but with several later editions, based on Worldcat.

The "First White Boy" was a young man, Thomas Baker Kennard, born May 6, 1841 at Tumai near Waikouaiti. If I read Google Maps correctly, this would mean he was born ten to fifteen miles from the Weller Brothers whaling station at Okatou. This would be after the Weller Brothers packed up -- but just barely after.

And Beattie quoted songs known by Kennard. One of these is the one listed in Shanties by the Way as "Whalers' Rhymes," elsewhere called "The Beautiful Coast of New Zealand." Another, called "The Whalers," I do not recognize based on the four lines quoted by Tod.

There is a copy of The First White Boy Born in Otago in the Library of Congress, but there aren't any that appear accessible to me. Nor have I found one for sale. But if anyone in New Zealand is still pursuing this subject, that might be a place to look.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: HuwG
Date: 23 Dec 22 - 09:30 PM

I've just got this on a Fisherman's Friends CD (an early Christmas present). Nonsensical and catchy, but no doubt some of my Labour Club friends will decry both whaling and nineteenth century commercial practice as barbaric.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GUEST,Robert B. Waltz
Date: 23 Dec 22 - 05:36 PM

Here is a book which sounds quite interesting for this thread: Frank Tod, Whaling in Southern Waters. Forster describes it as "Of partic. interest for material on shore-based whaling in the Otago area 1831-48.... Includes 'Songs and verses of the whalers.'" What is more, it was published by New Zealand Tablet Co., which sounds like an educational company.

It would be a perfect fit for Our Book, were it not that Forster says it was published in 1982. But might there be an earlier version?

I've located a copy in New Zealand, but the price is high. I thought I'd post here asking about it before I blow the money. According to Worldcat, there are no copies in libraries that are anywhere near me, and I have no idea if I could get it by inter-library loan.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GUEST,Robert B. Waltz
Date: 22 Dec 22 - 08:53 PM

A.M. wrote: I still think Tommy Wood's likely construction of this song around 1970 is worth an article in a folklore or music journal, given its fifteen minutes of fame in 2021.

There will, at least, be extensive notes in the next release of the Traditional Ballad Index. But I still consider this an unsolved mystery. The assumption that the Reed book was it because it had the right characteristics was weak.... The Forster book mentioned at least one book of creative works by sailors. That might be another prospect. But I want to finish checking Forster before I do any more hunting.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GUEST,A.M.
Date: 22 Dec 22 - 07:50 PM

Huge thank you to CJB for asking for help from the NZ National Library. I still think Tommy Wood's likely construction of this song around 1970 is worth an article in a folklore or music journal, given its fifteen minutes of fame in 2021. But perhaps there are many Mudcat discussions which I find more interesting than a normal music historian would.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 22 Dec 22 - 09:59 AM

Two versions from the Marsh Family, sadly only recorded a week apart

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDYj9TLq9Qg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqWeSZsVjKE

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GUEST,Robert B. Waltz
Date: 21 Dec 22 - 01:44 PM

CJB wrote: Got some scans of the Reed book from the Turnbull. But there is nothing in the book about Wellerman or Weller Man. Plenty of sketches. But nothing to do with our song. The librarian has kindly offered to search other books in their catalogue. I’ll upload her email to me here.

Good work! Nice to know I can stop looking for Reed.... It's worth remembering that it wasn't the only possibility, just the one that sounded most logical. I continue seeking others; the Forster book has a lot of possibilities although none of them scream at me "This is the one."

I am also more and more inclined to think it's an Australian song, not a New Zealand song, by origin. The Weller Brothers operation in New Zealand was a shore whaling operation only. Even if one of their supply ships chased a whale, there would be no way for the Wellerman to visit.

To the person who dislikes the song: It's worth remembering that hardly any, if any, of the recordings we've heard in the last few year has it right. Every one of the half dozen or so that I have heard has distorted the tune -- usually mis-timing the chorus, but there are other errors, too. I doubt that getting it right would make you like it much better, but do keep in mind that what you're hearing is not quite what was sung in New Zealand in the early 1970s!

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GUEST,Dave Hanson
Date: 21 Dec 22 - 08:49 AM

Am I the only person in the world that doesn't like this feckin boring song ?

Dave H

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GUEST,CJB
Date: 21 Dec 22 - 07:59 AM

Got some scans of the Reed book from the Turnbull. But there is nothing in the book about Wellerman or Weller Man. Plenty of sketches. But nothing to do with our song. The librarian has kindly offered to search other books in their catalogue. I’ll upload her email to me here.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Dec 22 - 04:54 PM

Deliberate threaddrift. Bob, have you seen my latest article on the Rigdum variants of Froggy, at Mustrad? I'd appreciate any comments, especially on the level of obsessive pedantry:-)

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GUEST,Robert B. Waltz
Date: 15 Dec 22 - 04:33 PM

I don't think anyone with any sense is taking the song/poem as having any basis in reality.

I hope not. But better to prove it. :-) (And someone could, theoretically, have told a tall tale about a real ship.)

The only question seems to be how old it is and how much came from the pen of someone c1970. The only people with any interest in this are us obsessive pedants;-)

Yes, well, obsessive pedantry is why they (don't) pay me the big bucks. :-)

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Dec 22 - 03:39 PM

I don't think anyone with any sense is taking the song/poem as having any basis in reality. The only question seems to be how old it is and how much came from the pen of someone c1970. The only people with any interest in this are us obsessive pedants;-)

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GUEST,Robert B. Waltz
Date: 15 Dec 22 - 12:20 PM

Continuing the ongoing obsession. :-) If I don't get responses to this, I'll stop bugging people here and continue hunting on my own....

Maybe "Whaling in early New Zealand", by A W Reed, 1960.

I still haven't found a copy of this that doesn't have to cross an ocean to get to me, or that is for sale. However, I've now managed to get my hands on Honore Forster, The South Sea Whaler: An Annotated Bibliography. It has a section on children's books; the Reed book is not among them. So I have to read the whole dang bibliography. :-/

It does have an index of ships. It probably won't surprise anyone that there are no references to the Billy of Tea. :-) For one thing, any whaler would have been built in Britain or America, and so would not have an Australian/New Zealander name!

Also... I don't know if it has come up here or not, but the Weller Brothers had only one base in New Zealand, at Otakou in Otago. There were a bunch of books and pamphlets issued at the time of Otakou's centenary. This was about the right time for them to be discarded at the time Tommy Wood saw... whatever he found. Some of these are available for sale... at very high prices plus postage from New Zealand. Wish I knew if this would prove worth it. :-)

I find myself thinking that, if the only base the Wellers had in New Zealand was at Otakou, then the Billy of Tea must have been going in circles to get regularly supplied. :-)

(Also, how were they still able to run the ship after all four boats were lost? Based on the typical crew of Pacific whalers at the time, 80% of the crew and 100% of the non-warrant officers would have been in the boats. What fraction would have been lost if there were lost.)

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Nov 22 - 10:15 AM

Maybe "Whaling in early New Zealand", by A W Reed, 1960.

Worldcat.org has this book showing in the listings. Whaling in Early New Zealand is in an academic library at the U of Hawaii at Manoa, and at several New Zealand libraries. You can probably view this free, (as a test I did the search on a browser that isn't set up with the Worldcat account or password). To get into the system to request from a library you may have to set up a free account or go to a library and do the search from there; this is a wonderful resource for obscure books and journals.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Nov 22 - 09:56 AM

A curious bird is the Wellerman,
His beard can hold more than his billy can.

I'll get me coat!

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GUEST,Robert B. Waltz
Date: 29 Nov 22 - 09:34 AM

Since this thread is live again, I might as well post what I've learned in the last three weeks. Which is mostly negative.

First off, the odds that the Reed book is the right one have increased, because the others I've seen are not it. I had real hope for L. S. Rickard, The Whaling Trade in Old New Zealand. I have not finished reading this, but I have zipped through the pages, and there is no poem printed, so it doesn't look as if it's in that one.

I haven't even started The New Zealand Journal... of John B. Williams, but again, flipping through the pages shows nothing.

There are two minor signs of authenticity in the poem. Rickard reports that the standard number of boats on a south seas whaler at this time was four, as in the song, and the earliest reference in any New Zealand or Australian historical dictionary to "billy" is to New Zealand, in 1839, where it is used to hold tea.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GUEST,CJB
Date: 29 Nov 22 - 07:34 AM

Clickys

https://amershammuseum.org/history/research/other-articles/amershams-link-to-whaling/

https://mashable.com/article/wellerman-sea-shanty-history

https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/wellerman-sea-shanty-global-hit

====

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GUEST,CJB
Date: 29 Nov 22 - 06:08 AM

Wellerman Links

https://amershammuseum.org/history/research/other-articles/amershams-link-to-whaling/

https://mashable.com/article/wellerman-sea-shanty-history

https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/wellerman-sea-shanty-global-hit

====

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 22 - 05:58 AM

From Otago Settlers Museum

Kia ora Chris,
Thank you for your enquiry. Unfortunately, we do not hold a copy of this book [Reed].

I recommend you enquire directly with the National Library via the link you sent below:

Alternatively, you may wish to try the Dunedin Public Library.

Others have also attempted to research the shanty’s background and origins, e.g.:

* The Wellerman – Amersham’s unexpected link to whaling and the social media craze for sea shanties, by Alison Bailey
* The harsh history behind the internet's favorite sea shanty, by Chris Taylor
* Wellerman sea shanty a global hit, by Molly Houseman

I hope this information is helpful. Good luck with your research.

Nga mihi,
Jenny Chen ??? | she/her | Kairokiroki / Archivist
Toitu Otago Settlers Museum
Te Kaunihera a-Rohe o Otepoti / Dunedin City Council

Toitu Archives
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GUEST,CJB
Date: 19 Nov 22 - 02:09 PM

"Whaling in early New Zealand", by A W Reed, 1960. ca 1959-1960]

https://natlib.govt.nz/records/22785769

https://natlib.govt.nz/items?i[collection_any_id]=501881&i[-category]=Groups

List of illustrations:
According to the publication, the scenes depicted are:
1. Whalers in the Pacific
2. Different kinds of whales
3. Why whales are hunted
4. Catching and rendering down at sea
5. Life on a whaler
6. The first callers at New Zealand
7. Jacky Guard catches whales from off shore
8. A day at Jacky Guard's whaling station
9. Early shore whalers and the Maoris
10. More about the shore whalers
11. The whaler at home
12. The value of their catches
13. The harpoon gun
14. Modern whaling
15. Whaling at Tory Channel today

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GUEST,CJB
Date: 19 Nov 22 - 01:38 PM

Thread creep - sorry - from PapersPast …

https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers?items_per_page=25&query=Weller+whaling&snippet=true&sort_by=byDA.rev

====

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Nov 22 - 04:45 PM

Wellers get plenty of mention and on South Island there is a Wellers Rock.

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GUEST,CJB
Date: 17 Nov 22 - 03:12 PM

The search above was at Google Books for “New Zealand weller whaling”

Subject: RE: Origin: Soon May the Wellerman Come
From: GUEST,CJB
Date: 17 Nov 22 - 03:10 PM

Sorry it was me again. My iPhone doesn’t create Clickys very well.