Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada

Subject: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: GUEST,GUEST. MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 06:57 PM

Hello. I'm a 17-year-old girl from Australia wondering about the origins of the song titled "Brown skin girl" covered by Harry Belafonte which I sometimes like to sing in my free time. I have seen several sites which imply that this is a traditional folk song from the island of Grenada. I'd like to know if this song appears in any folk song collections or if there are any field recordings and also whether it may have originally been a sailors' song of some kind. Thanks.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: GUEST,MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 08:37 PM

Hey, what happened to the other posts?

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 08:41 PM

Deleted. One of them was spam and the other was your reply to the spam.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: GUEST,MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 08:44 PM

Thanks. So, Jeri, would you happen to know anything about the song mentioned in my post?
-Morwen.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 08:48 PM

I am trying to find information about variants of it, such as any traditional verses. The only information i can find is that the song is from Grenada and the chorus, "Brown skin girl/gal, stay home and mind baby, I'm going away on a sailing boat and if I don't come back, throw away the damn baby' is traditional. Many singers who perform it add verses, but are there any in collected versions, or any collections which contain this song?

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: GUEST, MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 08:50 PM

Ignore last post. copy and pasted if this isn't against the rules. Sorry:

I am trying to find information about variants of it, such as any traditional verses. The only information i can find is that the song is from Grenada and the chorus, "Brown skin girl/gal, stay home and mind baby, I'm going away on a sailing boat and if I don't come back, throw away the damn baby' is traditional. Many singers who perform it add verses, but are there any in collected versions, or any collections which contain this song?

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 08:58 PM

I don't know anything about it, and all the videos of the song by Belafonte are blocked here. I did find a version on YouTube here. I can't see what the singer's name is.

There is some discussion there, though.
"This song was written by Trinidadian calypso singer, King Radio in 1946, and is a comment on the tendency of American servicemen in Trinidad during World War II to father babies and then abandon the children and their mothers when they returned to the United States.

It was popularised by Caribbean-American singer Harry Belafonte in his album, "Calypso" (1956). Jazz versions have been recorded by Sonny Rollins and Roy Haynes."

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 09:03 PM

Thanks. However, it looks like King Radio added verses. It seems like the song itself is older.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: GUEST,MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 09:05 PM

Oh not again! Thanks. That's not really what I'm looking for, but it's a great link. It seems like the song itself is older.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 09:12 PM

King Radio's version was in 1946 and Belafonte's was 10 years later in 1956. If King Radio added verses, what did he add verses to? Do you know of an earlier version?

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: GUEST,MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 09:32 PM

No. In fact, that's what I'm looking for. The chorus is apparently traditional- Lord Invader performed a version with "What is wrong with you Miss Ivy, why are you trapping me with that baby?" beginning the first verse. King Radio sang his own verses with the same chorus (Harry Belafonte version), and there is also a mento version by Ben Bowers, but I don't know how old the versions other than Belafonte's are.
The verses are very different from each version. The singers probably added them to the chorus of "Brown skin girl, stay home and mind baby". I'm looking for collected lyrics to the chorus.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: GUEST,MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 09:52 PM

So does anyone know of a variant of this song or field recordings? That's what I'm looking for.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: GUEST,GUEST. MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 10:57 PM

Refresh

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: GUEST,MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 11:56 PM

So does anyone know of a variant of this song or field recordings?

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 12:00 AM

Morwen, calm down - you don't have to refresh every hour - have a little patience, someone will get back to you.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: GUEST,MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 12:01 AM

sorry

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: GUEST,van lingle
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 06:34 PM

Hi Morwen,
The great Bahamian guitarist Joseph Spence did a noteworthy recording of it on a 1959 Folkways LP, called, I believe "Folk Songs of the Bahamas".

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 06:47 PM

Thanks. I am looking for early field recordings or references to folk song collections which contain it or songs similar to it though, but that could be a useful lead.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 07:01 PM

You'll find the Joseph Spence recording of the song on a Smithsonian Folkways album called Joseph Spence: The Complete Folkways Recordings 1958. I can't make out the lyrics he's singing, but the guitar work is wonderful. Follow the link to the notes, which aren't particularly helpful.

As indicated in this thread the version sung by Belafonte is attributed to Norman Span, whoever he was.

The message from Jeri above say the song was written by Trinidadian calypso singer, King Radio in 1946.

It's hard to trace the roots of many of the songs recorded by Harry Belafonte. I think that Caribbean songwriters didn't really see songwriting as a business, so they didn't worry much about claiming ownership of the songs.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: GUEST,MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 07:03 PM

Norman Span is the real name of King Radio.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: GUEST,MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 08:05 PM

I think it is entirely possible that some folk song collector travelled to Grenada and recorded it in an obscure hard-to-find field recording. The liner notes of the Joseph Spence album- thanks, Joe! - suggest that it is a folk song, but the Bahamas? why would a folk song from Grenada get labelled Bahamian? Maybe the theme is common? Does anyone have any folk song collections they could give me references to that contain songs similar to this, or even this song? I've done my own research- The Traditional Ballad Index apparently includes "Sloop John B", but not this, and I believe there should be references to "Brown Skin Girl" if it was collected.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenad
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 09:39 PM

Morwen,

I don't understand what you're driving at. King Radio claims to have written the song. He got the copyright registered by 1949 (there's published record of this).

Is that it that you suspect he really didn't write it? Why? FWIW, it sounds to me like a song someone deliberately composed. What reason do you have to suspect it was "traditional" or that Span took it from another source?

Is it just the Grenada/Trinidad/Bahamas discrepancy? Assuming Span was from Trinidad (home of calypso/kaiso), I don't see any reason (yet) to suspect his songs did not gain later popularity on other islands. The song was known in the UK, Canada, and US by 1948:
http://books.google.com/books?id=m5XfAAAAMAAJ&q=%22brown+skin+girl%22&dq=%22brown+skin+girl%22&hl=en&ei=XNWjTYuGPKOE0QH3lbTtCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CEYQ6AEwBg
http://books.google.com/books?id=vBUbAAAAMAAJ&q=%22brown+skin+girl%22&dq=%22brown+skin+girl%22&hl=en&ei=v9WjTZmqG6mx0QGMxKXuCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBzgK
http://books.google.com/books?id=w9VKAAAAYAAJ&q=%22brown+skin+gyal%22&dq=%22brown+skin+gyal%22&hl=en&ei=Ld2jTZWsIYWO0QGX8vXrCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAg

I'm sure the song spread. For instance, Caribbean professional musicians would go to Bahamas to perform for tourists. I don't see anywhere that says the song had to be "native" to a particular island's tradition.

If it was a popular song, by a know artist, what sort of "field recordings" would you expect to be "collected"? Is it that you want other people's non-commercial "cover versions" of King Radio's song?

As for other songs of this type...calypsos from the 1940s!

I hope you don't mistake my tone for rudeness, it is just confusion :) I'm ready to believe there could be an interesting story about this song, but so far I've not seen any reason to suspect there is.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenad
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 09:43 PM

BTW, where does Grenada come in, anyway? Is that just a bunch a nonsense off of random websites, or a rumour floated by an irresponsible folkie? Don't get distracted by the "blood red roses" effect. (i.e. if there were never any blood red roses to begin with, it's no use trying to reconcile a bunch of facts that make no sense in relation to something that was made up.)

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: EBarnacle
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 10:03 PM

I believe Sloop John B was composed in the 1950's and is copyrighted.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: GUEST,MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 10:10 PM

Calypso history books including Calypso Calaloo: Early Carnival Music in Trinidad, and Caliban and the Yankees which i found on Google Books, state that "the original (of this song) was from Grenada", "taking off on a Grenadian folk song" one memoir states that Radio was "adapting an old theme", and one blog by a Grenadian woman describes her daughter singing the chorus, which she refers to as an "old-time folk song" . Another site also refers to "the folk version" of this song. There is no doubt in my mind that he wrote the 1946 version, and I have seen some sites which seem to be reliable on this being a common song in other repertoires. Which doesn't prove that he didn't write it. There is also another book on Google Books which lists a number of songs adapted by calypsonians which have roots in other islands. One is "Sly Mongoose (from Jamaica)" and another is "Brown Skin Girl (from the Grenadines)". He could have written it, but then he could have simply adapted an older song.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: GUEST,MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 10:16 PM

Sloop John B was found/collected as early in 1927, which is impossible if it was composed in the 1950s. I read threads on this site before I began posting here and the wikipedia article on "The Wreck of the John B". You can copyright something without having created it.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenad
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 10:27 PM

Thanks, Morwen, that helps a lot! The picture has become much more clear of what you're after and how we might help.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: GUEST,MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 10:30 PM

So might you be able to help?

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 11:44 PM

I haven't found much on Caribbean folk music. Alan Lomax did a fair amount there, and he produced a remarkable Town Hall concert in New York in 1946. Performers included The Duke of Iron, Macbeth the Great, Lord Invader, and Gerald Clark and his Invaders. I have a feeling that these performers, whose names are on many well-known Caribbean songs, drew their works from traditional sources.

The only early collection of Caribbean songs I know of, is The Island Song Book (1927), by John T. McCutcheon (1870-1949). I've been trying to get a reasonably-priced copy of that book for years, with no luck.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: GUEST,MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 06:55 AM

Just in case I'm not getting any replies. Refresh.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: GUEST,MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 07:53 PM

So does anyone have any concrete information about the Grenadian folk version of this song? I'm holding out for information.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenad
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 08:15 PM

Hello Morwen,

No, I am sorry I don't have any specific ideas right now. However, I find the topic interesting and had come back to this thread several times. I am interested in Caribbean music, but I mainly know about Jamaican stuff.

[Along those lines, I do know of a Jamaican mento song called "Brownskin girl," but it is different.]

Threads here often take a while to "develop." Oftentimes someone (years later!) will be thinking of the same question, and then discover this thread while searching. Then they will post something that will open up a new avenue. I (and I'm sure a few others) are watching this with interest, and waiting to jump in if they have an idea. I am sorry I don't have any spectacular idea right now, but now that I have a sense of what you're looking for, I (and others) are better "poised" :) to jump in if an idea pops up.

FWIW (and I'm sure you know this already) it often helps to familiarize yourself with other songs/music in the genre, and then ideas start to emerge -- i.e. rather than just focusing on one song. At least, it gives you something to do while waiting for answers!

Random thoughts... in African-American/Caribbean music, the epithet of "brown-skin girl" seems pretty common. It is complimentary; "brown" is, dubiously, considered more appealing than "black," and often implies a mulatto.
Since this phrase is common -- and possibly too general to give good results -- you may want to focus your searches on something more particular, like "mind your baby." I imagine that variations of this might conceivably say "Yellow Girl" or "downtown girl" or "Kingston girl" or etc etc.

girl/gal/gyal
baby/baybee/pickney

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 01 May 11 - 07:38 AM

Refresh.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 01 May 11 - 06:19 PM

I did search for "mind your baby folk song" but what came up was more stuff on this.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: GUEST
Date: 02 May 11 - 07:45 AM

Go to the Musical Traditions site. Click on 'Articles'. At article 040, you will find a link to 'Kaiso Newsletters'. Follow the link and you will find an email address for Ray Funk. He is a world expert on calypso and it may be worth your while contacting him. Just a thought.

Musical Traditions

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Jun 11 - 07:55 PM

Mille Cozart Riggio, 2004, Carnival Culture in Action, The Trinidad Experience, attributes "Brown Skin Girl" to the Grenadines, "Sly Mongoose" to Jamaica, "Stone Cold Dead" to Barbados and L'Année passée to Martinique.
She teaches at Trinity College, Connecticut, and is quite kbnoledgeable on Caribbean culture. I haven't seen the book, the page on which her statement is made is on the net by Google. I don't know if she gives any details.

Radio King's 1946 song, with reference to North American sailors and made a hit by Belafonte, is the one with which most of us are familiar.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 03 Jun 11 - 08:44 PM

Q, she edited the book. The essays are written by "leading experts on carnival from around the world." Since the book is on Trinidadian carnival, I'm assuming that the experts have also extensively studied Trinidadian and Tobagan Carnival.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Jun 11 - 09:52 PM

Do any of the essays discuss Grenadine folk songs?

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 03 Jun 11 - 09:59 PM

Incidentally, an academic who studies a particular subject is likely to know a lot about it. Even a person who isn't an academic but who has spent a while in a particular region, heard the songs, and has noticed that some songs share similar themes can know something about at least one song.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 03 Jun 11 - 10:07 PM

So the question becomes how to actually track down this Grenadian song? There is a book on the Big Drum Festival on Carriacou and Alan Lomax collected a series of Grenadian songs from people in 1942. However, most of the tracks on the Lomax album are in French Creole. Does anyone have an idea? I'm not aware of any Grenadian folk songbooks.

No specific discussion of Grenadian/Grenadiane songs in the book "Carnival Culture in Action."

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 03 Jun 11 - 10:09 PM

EDIT: Sorry, that should be "Grenadine".

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: JedMarum
Date: 04 Jun 11 - 10:17 AM

These are the lyrics Belafonte sings - and this credits Norman Span as composer.

BROWN SKIN GIRL
(Norman Span)

Edmundo Ros & His Orchestra


Everything to keep me from sleeping
A lot of sailor boys they were leaving
And everybody there was jumping
To hear the sailor boys in Alcora singing

Brown skin girl stay home and mind baby
Brown skin girl stay home and mind baby
I'm going away in a sailing boat
And if I don't come back
Stay home and mind baby

Now the Americans made an invasion
We thought it was a help to the island
Until they left from here on vacation
They left the native boy here to mind their children

Brown skin girl stay home and mind baby ....

Now I tell you the story bout Millie
She made a nice blue eyed baby
And they say she fancy the mother
But the blue eyed baby ain't know she father

Brown skin girl stay home and mind baby ....

Now the Americans all have their pleasure
While the music play to their leisure
Everybody there they were jumping
To hear the sailor boys in Alcora singing

Brown skin girl stay home and mind baby
Brown skin girl stay home and mind baby
I'm going away in a sailing boat
And if I don't get back
Stay home and mind baby

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jun 11 - 01:07 PM

Jim Dixon posted the Span-Belafonte lyrics back in Two thousand and ought two, thread 49484, linked at the top of this thread.

Norman Span was better known as King Radio, discussed above. He did a good version of Mathilda, also picked up by Belafonte. "His Man Smart but ..." is perhaps his best.
-----------------------

Warning- possible virus on Dominica radio sites, noted by my cable provider.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 04 Jun 11 - 05:37 PM

Q, did you find anything on Dominica radio sites?

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 04 Jun 11 - 06:02 PM

Actually, I think Grenada would be a better bet than the Grenadines. Apparently there are a large amount of radio stations in Grenada. One or more of them could broadcast folk music.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 04 Jun 11 - 07:26 PM

"Alcora" should be "our chorus" in the Norman Span version.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jun 11 - 10:43 PM

"our chorus" correctly posted in the other thread.

Actually I did look for Grenada radio stations. Reggae for 2 hours daily at www.citysoundfm.com. Vintage on Wednesday.
The newspapers require subscription.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jun 11 - 10:52 PM

Check my last post on the other thread. Any ideas as to a better version?

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 04 Jun 11 - 10:54 PM

So, I'll be waiting to see if Q (or someone else) can subscribe to a Grenadian newspaper or listen to Grenadian radio to discover more leads. I am working on a school assignment due tomorrow, so I don't have much time to conduct my own research.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brown Skin Girl- folksong from Grenada
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 04 Jun 11 - 11:35 PM

Q, re newspapers/magazines printing songs and poems- do you know if this a common practice in Britain as well as the US? I would think if it was a common practice in Britain, it would be a common practice in Grenada and other British colonies in the 18th and 19th century. This song caould only date from around that period or later, as it is in English. Grenada became a British colony in the 18th century- it was ceded to the Uk by the French in the Treaty of Paris in 1763. It became a crown colony in 1877, according to Wikipedia.