BS: Some people are so stupid...

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: gnu
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 07:12 PM

"...great gaps of ignorance even in people who are pretty highly educated and intelligent."

I take umbrage sir! I come by those gaps not of my own doing but simply because I am ignorant in their regard. Perhaps I am remiss in same because I was too busy becoming highly educated. As for intelligent, that came with birth and I had nothing to do with such.

As for all who judge others in their perception of rudeness, be it in regard to station or otherwise, it matters not... rude people are assholes and they have no excuse.

Oh... BTW... "great gaps of ignorance" would actually mean the lack of ignorance... but, I am a highly educated and intelligent person and was actually able to understand the clause as, I believe, was intended. Either that or the fact that I am celebrating a most joyful occasion with drink has caused me to to misinterpret the vague logic intended, whereby I must offer apologies and resign myself to "fuckit mode" and consign all of youse who care to bicker over fuckall to the round file.

Jump up and wave your arms furiously. Just don't hit each other. Have fun with it.... chav it up eh?.... gnightgnu

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 07:30 PM

Do enjoy a nice debate, Lox. And hope that while you are displaying erudition or your prolier than thou chip on your shoulder you don't meet any chavs who might take umbrage at joined up thinking.

Or do you think that there is some excuse for deliberately choosing to remain ignorant and to assault those who choose to learn?

Acting as those rightly pilloried by the OP is a matter of choice. It is a choice that deserves vilification. It is the choice that disenfranchises those who might choose to learn at school, rather than disrupt lessons. It is the choice that enfranchises certain "political parties". It is the choice that makes "philosopher" a term of abuse in the UK. It is not a choice that deserves defence.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 07:41 PM

Where Richard did i excuse the people who behaved rudely in the OP's story?

Nowhere.

I wrote specifically about the term "chav".

Do you think what I have saaid about that term is mistaken and if so - how?

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 07:48 PM

chav (tʃæv)

— n
        informal , derogatory ( Southern English ) a young working-class person whose tastes, although sometimes expensive, are considered vulgar by some


The collins dictionary defines Chav as

"a young working class person who dresses in casual sports clothing".



hmmmm .... not very enlightening on the subject of behaviour ...


But, as with many words, it all depends on who is saying it.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 08:04 PM

"And hope that while you are displaying erudition or your prolier than thou chip on your shoulder you don't meet any chavs who might take umbrage at joined up thinking."

Indeed, and I hope that one day you will take the time to look up "socialism" and "class struggle".

I don't claim to be a socialist, but then you don't claim to be a hypocrite.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 09:21 PM

"Chav THIS!

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 01:30 AM

'Some people are so stupid...'

Yes. They are.

But you know what, it's not those whom society has labelled The Chavs, but those who feel so superior to them, who have no idea what their lives have been like, what paths have led them to be so angry, so disconnected from society, at such a young age.

I too, along with so many others get exasperated by bad behaviour, rude attitudes and total disregard for others, but I also understand the reasons behind it, and no matter how exasperated I feel about 'chavvy' behaviour I feel FAR more exasperated with so many others, who seemingly regard themselves as socially, educationally and emotionally superior to those whom they regard as lower than scum.

Jamie Oliver is one man who's trying to make people see all the Lost Jewels that school is spitting out of The System, who may well end up with criminal records, drugs, alcohol or worse, as their horizons. His 'Dream School' programme took some of the most damaged Jewels, trying to turn that love of learning back on again. The link to the final episode of it is below.

What came across was how the 'celebrity' teachers he chose to teach them knew so little about the lives of these young people. What also came across was the quick minds, the intelligence and the terrible hurt, pain and anger that this group of children have inside them.
Eventually, the teachers and the kids met somewhere in the middle, each side respecting the other, finally learning to understand the other's point of view. The youngsters had a great deal to teach the teachers.

Yes, the kids drove those teachers almost to the point of breakdown at times, but Jamie refused to let folks give up. He'd been those children you see....he'd been 'the chav', as some would call him here...but he was lucky, he came from a loving family and so, despite his ADHD, his severe dyslexia, his being told what a failure he'd be, at school, his family continued to believe in him. His father taught him how to run a restaurant, how to cook, how to be disciplined and work hard...and the rest, as they say, is history.

The headmaster during this programme was also, once upon a time, that problem child, so used to being told he'd never make anything of his life, that he'd come to believe it and *became* the child he felt his teachers saw. And then one day ONE teacher turned his life around by **BELIEVING** in him..and from that moment on, ALL he wanted to be was a teacher himself, to turn the lives of others around in exactly the same way. At times, even he was driven to tears with all that surrounded him, but he and Jamie between them, got nearly all those youngsters through to a better place, a far better place...

He ends this series saying that the one thing he's learnt from this is that everyone has got something to offer, and there HAS to be something so wrong with a system that is spitting out so many children with 'FAILURE' stamped inside their heads...

Of course it is not all the fault of schools, because so often terrible damage is already in place inside the souls of so many young children before they even start school. Unwanted, unloved, they learn early on to grab what attention they can by acting up, being a nuisance..Their anger takes root in tiny minds, distorting them so much.

ALL they long to be is loved. Is that too much for anyone to ask?

Richard speaks above of both sexes being allowed to act the same, but I disagree with that a great deal.

The Death of Motherhood has caused so much damage in our children. The Death of Femininity has added to that. Girls are encouraged to behave like lager louts, when the lager louts themselves are also so often broken people. Why would any society not help those who are broken? Why would they encourage their women to behave just like them? Men and women are different, for different reasons. We seem to want to breed gentleness out of women these days, and I truly don't understand that.

Children need parents, mothers AND fathers. If you don't have a loving home, no matter who raises you, then life starts off so very harsh and hard.

So if all The Lost Boys & Girls have ganged together in Neverland UK, becoming their own tribe with their own rules, their own dress code and language, is it really that surprising? They have become their own extended family, because there is no-one else there for them, more often than not.

What is so surprising is there are now several generations of Lost Boys & Girls, whole families of Peter Pan kids, who don't know what it's like to be loved, who therefore cannot love anyone else, let alone themselves....and all society wants to do is to continue to spit on them even more, rather than find the solutions or face up to the fact that something is so very, very wrong within that society.

Here is Jamie's programme:

Jamie's Dream School - Final Episode (available for the next 28 days)


Jamie knows something is going so so wrong at school.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 03:11 AM

I agree with a point Eliza made a bit earlier about how could society produce the views and intellect of the late Jade Goody when we claim to have an education system?

However, although on this thread I find myself agreeing with M'unlearned friend on a few of his points, I can't accept his idea that this is about choice. You are the net result of your experience and role models.

When I found myself having to influence and debate with people from other parts of the country, I found it a good practical idea to try and lose the South Yorkshire clipped dialect. My intellect hadn't changed, (I may not be the best judge of my intellect!) just the delivery.

Don't confuse language with attitude or choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 03:16 AM

The Jeremy Kyle show comes to mind. He has made a living out of bringing chavviness issues to our homes and the program suggests that they spend their most of their time waiting for DNA results of offspring. If the general public sees programs like this the prejudice is going to remain. It's not something I tune into on a regular basis but stumbled upon if I have had to stay at home off sick from work, thankfully not too often!!

Surprisingly the so called chavs I've come across are equally into designer clothes and the latest computers games and suchlike and because of the circumstances need to have a 'streetwise' appearance or else be trampled on depending on the area they are in. Piercings are not just a chav thing I have known many middle-class hippies to have the odd piercing or two plus tattoos but people seem to accept that and call that bohemian.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 04:43 AM

I have not conflated accent with intelligence. I do have an impression of correlation between intelligence and vocabulary.

I am not seeking to oppress the working class.

I am all for enabling and assisting anyone who wants to learn - and quite happy to condemn those who won't (as distinct from "can't").

Those who can't need support and assistance.

Plenty of people have done well by setting out to improve.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 04:49 AM

"Indeed, and I hope that one day you will take the time to look up "socialism" and "class struggle"."

But surely, Lox, chavism (wilful stupidity and ignorance) IMPEDES the class struggle? Shouldn't they all be in their public libraries reading Marx and Engels?


Well they could be in their public libraries reading Marx and Engels if Labour councils hadn't dumbed public libraries down and filled them full of DVDs ... and the Coalition government hadn't forced Labour Councils to make a choice between paying their chief executives enormous salaries or closing their public libraries ...

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Penny S.
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 05:00 AM

I suspect that those who "won't" learn have been finagled into that position.
They may have had little choice in getting where they have arrived.
Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 05:51 AM

Exactly, Penny.

I believe, as do others, that those who 'won't' learn are being taught by those who also 'won't' learn. Teachers who refuse to accept that we all learn in different ways, and some of us, if we have NO interest in a particular subject will simply switch our minds off. There are many children out there who only want to learn what they are interested in.
I have no recall of subjects I was 'taught' which did not interest me one iota. A complete and utter waste of my time and of the teachers too.

The young man on Jamie's film who turned out to be a natural poet, astounding not only his teacher, but himself. The angry young woman who found her naturally argumentative nature would stand her in good stead, if she decided to become a politician, encouraged to see herself thus by Alistair Campbell. Conor, the quick thinking wizard, always one step ahead of his teachers, being told how he'd make a great stand-up comedian. The young lad with 3 older brothers, all of whom were in trouble with the law, discovering he had a natural abillity for mathematics. This ability was turned off very early on when he'd stayed behind to ask his teacher some questions, only to be told the lesson had ended....and so did his interest. But it was re-ignited not only in those maths lessons he got on the progamme, but by Alvin Hall (the teacher) recognising a natural numerical ability, and HIM staying behind to give this young lad the benefit of one to one teaching.

The young people whom Ellen MacArthur took sailing. Ellen spoke to them on the same level she spoke to everyone else, one of friendliness and intelligence, and OH, how WELL they responded..and how proud they were to have pitted themselves against the elements, felt danger, and won!

Rolf Harris, who could see the natural artists behind the troubled faces and minds and who went on to encourage, praise, encourage and praise again, despite feeling at such a loss at the start, with all the talkback-backchat he was given...

Little by little these people won the oh so damaged trust of the young people they were trying so hard to help.

Conor, who saw through Cherie Blair immediately, asking her why she no longer had her Liverpudlian accent..and whose expression spoke volumes, when she said that on going to University she'd just 'naturally' picked up the accent of those around her...

There is none so blind as those who will not see, and sadly, in many cases our Education System and our Society in general, is filled with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 05:56 AM

Lizzie, you were a waste of an education.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 06:04 AM

Thank you, Richard.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 06:41 AM

I really don't think that the British Left have done anyone any favours by characterising large swathes of the population as helpless victims.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Penny S.
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 07:43 AM

Interesting about Cherie Blair. Someone did some work on accents and who loses them and who doesn't. Dominant characters don't. Subordinate personalities do the fitting in thing unconsciously. As I do. And I reely reely need to get rid of that estury rubbish. Though I'm not sure what I would like to get instead. I can't find a voice model for Sussex anywhere. Including Sussex.

Back to Blair - I suppose she may have thought she did need to have a court accent, but if she acquired it without intending to, that speaks of lack of self esteem. As does the use of woo advisers, crystals etc. Wonder what it says about the blessed Tony.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 08:43 AM

"Plenty of people have done well by setting out to improve. "

I see.

But you know that "chavs" don't do this.


Richard, your comments are elitist, ignorant and patronizing.


I've taught at a 'Chav' School.


Everyone knew it was a "chav" school.


Cos thats where "chav" kids were dumped and forgotten.


I suspect that your inability to communicate with those whom you perceive to be "chavs" has a lot more to do with your preconceptions and your egotism than with their alleged disinterest in your gracious intellectual benificence.


Fortunately for me, I didn't have those problems. I'm realistic ... I'm an outsider ... but there isn't a human being a live that I haven't managed to get through to with my smile and my eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 09:23 AM

Good for you, Lox. I'm proud of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: goatfell
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 09:49 AM

if they want respect then they must show repect. it's their problem not ours

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 11:08 AM

Lox, it's self determining. If they're still chavs, they have not improved. In the vast preponderance of cases it's because they have not bothered. Goths and metallers on the other hand seem to have some interest in intellectual stimulation - and you should hear their views on chavs.

I don't usually have any problem with real chavi. They do (largely - well those who I have met) seem to have a different world of a different set of learning, although there are both male and female travellers who are chavs instead.

When I was doing a lot of debating at university we used to debate at least once a term with a local society - affiliated to a Working Men's Institute or something like that. There was a coterie of their leading members who had acquired a considerable breadth of reading and learning in the 20s and 30s. There was no work but they had gone into the public libraries and educated themselves and many of them were better informed on the philosophers read in that period that we university students were. You don't catch a chav doing that.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,working class non-chav
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 11:46 AM

with reference to some of the class discussion going on above, chav's round my way are generally reviled by the working classes. On seeing groups of goldy chained tracksuited youths the cry of working class blokes will be 'get a job you lazy fuckers'. Chav's are more typically a non-working youth sub-set of the working class, whose culture has little remaining links to more traditional working-class groups or their cultural values, their lifestyles are more typically drug focused than that of the working class. I blame maggie thatcher - tongue not quite in cheek..

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 11:59 AM

The trouble with a label like "chav" is that in practice it gets applied not on the basis of behaviour and attitude, but increasingly on the basis of dress and appearance. And yet the contempt which can be reasonable enough when prompted by behaviour and attitude is carried over and loaded upon people who do not in any way deserve it.

It's rather like when Americans talk about "trailer trash".

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 12:05 PM

Then there are these....
..God only knows, there's a bunch on here!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 12:53 PM

OK. May I set the record straight. I have no issue with class and never have had. My Dad is a Polish immigrant who worked as a painter and decorator and, when he couldn't, worked in factories or down the pit. My Mum was a shopgirl who was swept off her feet by the handsome young foreigner and raised a family of three, of whom I am the eldest. I went to a sec. mod. until I was 16 and then to grammar school when it was found I had more than half a brain. But I could not hack it and left three months later for a job on the local council. Apart from odd times between contracts I have always worked and, should anyone want a category, you can say firmly working class.

I now would like to say that the whole point of the story, very markedly missed by some, was that the girls may not have been stupid or common. Their accent was my own accent. The irony is that someone who cannot make themselves understood to a high number of their own countrymen then complains that a foreigner, who can probably speak English better than they can, is 'A fuckin wog' and 'can't talk proper'. Now, they may have understood the irony themselves, in which case I am indeed the fool, but somehow I doubt it.

The thread title appears to be self fulfilling in some cases here so hows about we call it a day and just say that it was my fault that it all went pear shaped because I felt the need to tell a story. Very badly apparantly. Now, if anyone has anything pertinent to add please feel free to do so. And would those who would make excuses for loutish behavior and bad language please fuck off. :-)

MP

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 01:00 PM

14 Apr 11 - 11:53 AM

Kendall, I'm trying to visualize the scene: the motorcycle guy came up on your right- but then turned left and was gone? Doesn't that mean he turned in front of you?"


Well, with the assistance of another Mudcatter, I see it now, Kendall. It was all there. (Note to self: Read with brain engaged.)

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 01:10 PM

mp, i suspect you may be reeling from the results of thread drift. Your op was amusing and inofensive.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Don McBride
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 01:47 PM

You're all wrong! All of youse. Give it up, eh?

- Don

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 02:29 PM

Yes - I've noticed how working class snobs are quick to distinguish themselves as non chavs.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 04:17 PM

I am indeed, oh anonymous but wise Guest. I wish some of these poeple would get a life that doesn't involve trying to make themselves holier than thou. Anyway, lets ignore them and get on with laughing at idiots. Be they chavs, upper class tits, liberal wets or aging hippies:-)

BTW - Shimrod - whereabouts in god's own city did you serve your sentance? I was born and brought up in Swinton but now hail from Irlams o' th' Heights. Which, apart from Westward Ho! may have the oddest punctuation in the land:-)

Cheers

MP

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 05:19 PM

BTW - Mrs Whatnoll - My greatest apologies. I somehow missed your earlier post. Incisive and informative as ever. How are you? Not seen you around these parts for ages. I would only add that, as well as criminals and delinquents and troublesome foreigners, we should send scousers and Man United fans to the colonies as well.

All my love to you and yours.

MP

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: J-boy
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 01:12 AM

Do chavs still wear Burberry? Here in the good old USA they wear Abercrombie. Hoodies prevail as well. The fashion is seemingly universal. I'm reminded of droogs who were always dressed in the height of fashion. A Clockwork Orange isn't science fiction anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 04:56 AM

Hi MP,

I laboured mightily in Ordsall - a place now utterly transformed from a smelly brick shit heap to a gleaming glass and steel, utterly lifeless shit heap!

One lunchtime I remember finding a patch of wild orchids by the Ship Canal. They've now been replaced by gleaming glass and steel office blocks - which were, last time I looked, 'To Let'.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 05:20 AM

You just wouldn't believe it now, Shimrod - Check out 'Media City' when you get chance. I worked in the Quays for a while and it is indeed soulless :-( As I said earlier, I can see the good and wonderful in my City but also the flaws. The main one being that there is no city centre any more. They are trying to turn the old docks into one but failing miserably.

I'm not sure if my Dad lives in Ordsall or Weaste - It's just behind Stowells spire - Although that may have still been a church if the M602 wasn't built when you were here. I worry about him and what would happen if any of these idiots had a go at him. His Polish accent is still very pronounced and he suffers from bouts of dementia. Still, on the plus side, if the scallies were to call him a 'fuckin wog' and have a go at him there would be plenty of people to provide them tea and sympathy for the tough lives they must have had... :-)

MP

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 05:24 AM

A pretty reliable rule of thumb is that those with no money dress up, while those with a lot dress down.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 05:48 AM

I live in Chorlton, MP, where I have lived since 1972. It's now super-trendy of course - but that's not my fault (honest!).

I had to take the tram to Salford Royal Hospital (Eccles) recently and it went through the Dockland area. I just about held onto my soul which was nearly sucked out of me! The whole place is so lacking in soul I reckon that it tries to steal the souls of others.

I hope that your Dad is OK.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 06:14 AM

If we substituted the word 'paki' for the word 'chav', then hurled around the same insults and non-existant scenes, would that be considered as OK?

Are folks assuming that ALL 'chavs' would behave in the same way? That ALL are violent? That all are rude, obnoxious?

When I see gangs of kids here in Torquay, and there are many such gangs, I smile at them. 9 times out of 10 most of them smile back, you know.

Perhaps folks on here should try it. Don't wait for them to smile first, because more often than not, they won't. They've already been messed up by this harsh world, at such an early age.

Try holding out your hand to them, smiling at them first, right into their eyes, a warm, genuine smile, and see what might happen.

Round here I pick up the rubbish that so many just throw away, but it's not just the young people who do it, it's the older ones too. If I see any young people when I'm doing my daily round, looking at me strangely, I merely say "Isn't it awful what some people do, when we all should have the right to walk on clean streets"...and that's all I say. I keep my feelings of being REALLY pissed off about it inside. Sometimes, they even thank me for doing it.

Young people aren't 'the enemy', but many of them feel very left out, very separated from society. That breeds anger and resentment, which spills out into bad behaviour. We have failed as a society in this country because our children have been separated from their parents so early on in life. Many parents choose to do this, because mothers feel having a child is only part of their life. Many parents have no choice but to have both parents out working, because they cannot afford to live otherwise. That is now happening more and more.

Of course, Governments and Corporate Bastards jumped on the Mothers Working bandwagon, because two lots of taxes suddenly appeared, two lots of salaries to be spent on things that don't matter, but apparently HAVE to be had in order to prove you're a successful human being.

Meanwhile, the children get farmed out to Child Minders, Pre-School Learning Alliances and Before and After School Clubs. It's made even worse nowadays because no longer can helpers hug a distressed child, as we used to in our playgroup, treating every child like our own, kissing away the tears...

So many children no longer know what it is to be loved. And if they are fumingly angry, without even knowing why, who can blame them?

Adults have a great deal to answer for.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 06:51 AM

I like Chorlton - If we were moving elsewhere in Manchester it would be first choice.

And, like I said before to those who excuse loutish behavior and bad language. Fuck Off.

MP.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 06:56 AM

Well said Lizzie! Your neighbourhood is truly blessed to have you as a resident. As a teacher many years ago, I was often given the 'naughty ones' and 'difficult' children as I seemed to be able help them to settle and make progress, with firmness and fairness. We had fun too. But I always silently in my heart called them 'The Unloved', because usually that is what they were. They didn't have the stable, loving and caring parents that the 'better' ones did. And, as you say, many were seething with anger inside, or (worse) filled with an apathetic despair. I could see it all, but of course I was limited in what I could do for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: goatfell
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 07:20 AM

i don't work and I am not a ned (chav) like many other people who can't work

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 07:25 AM

I don't know about 'blessed', Eliza, but thank you for the kind thoughts. It can get you down at times. It's tough here, harsh and brutal in many places. I'm lucky, I was raised in an entirely different place, spiritually..in a different time too. So many of these children have known nothing else though, than the unforgiving streets of this place. Social Services are kept so busy here in Torquay. Many, many young Mums, children begetting other children.
You can see the loss of hope in their young faces already.

Torquay took on many 'problem' families back in the 70s, so I've been told by many folks here..The council got money to take them in from up country, Newcastle and Liverpool in particular...so they jumped on the bandwagon, taking as many as they could, not to care for them, but for the money involved.

Add to that a Mayor whose made this a place for Stag Parties and Hen Nights, so the clubs and pubs have taken over the town and you get some idea of what it's become. So many people I talk to loathe Nick Bye for what he's done. He wanted to move the War Memorial a while back, further into town. Seems a good idea, right? But he merely wanted the land the War Memorial stood on, so a Mega Casino could be put there instead.   Most of the good shops have pulled out now, many are empty or filled with crappy rubbish that you'd not want, ever.

There are so many drug addicts and alcoholics here, their faces deathly pale and gaunt. It's like a different planet from more affluent places....and all this is now happening in The English Riviera, a place of great beauty, an English Monaco, almost...but look a little deeper and you see a town dying on its' feet, whilst the million pound yachts bob up and down in the pretty harbour.

There are no jobs of any worth. Hardly any jobs at all. This year in particular, there aren't even any signs in the window for Easter jobs...and the people grow more desperate, more hopeless.

So the anger runs deep in this town as does the bad behaviour at times. I don't excuse it, but I'm just saying I understand it. It's exactly the same thing I used to see in Horrabridge, on Dartmoor, where I used to live years back. Again, there, lay deep poverty..and a vast factory farm of a school, Tavistock College, where over 2,000 pupils spent the vast majority of their young life shut inside. Terrible things happened in that place, I know because my daughter went there...and just last year the headmaster was dismissed after it failed almost every OFSTED tick box they could think of.   The misery in that school spreads out into all the local villages, as schools down there are few and far between...

Exmouth College is another. It used to be in the Guinness Book of Records as the biggest school in Europe..(!?!) and the town centre again has many drink related problems, cameras everywhere..

I've tried to tell folks for years now that so many social problems are also there because of these vast schools, where children lose their identities, where bullying runs rife. I'd wait for my little boy, as he was then, when he went to Tavistock Primary for a very short while, which lay behind the College..and I'd be aghast at how some parents spoke to their children..They seemed to hate them...

Now I realise that those parents themselves had probably known a similar upbringing.

If society can change that, then we can change many other things too.
Harshness now dominates so many things in young people's lives, music, video games, films, the entire culture...far more than when we were young...all these horrifically violent images that so many of them watch from early childhood, yet they were never there in our minds in the first place. You never had to worry that your children might be watching some horrific video when they went round to tea with a friend back when I was little...Yet now, goodness knows what is going on half the time.

The desensitisation of our children is an horrific thing, which is not being addressed at all. That desensitivity spills out into the streets, into how they treat each other, other people, animals...it spreads far and wide.

Big problem to cure. It can be cured, but only if enough people first face up to it being here in the first place, and then decide to do something about it...and we need to decide that AS A NATION, being led from the top downwards. If we don't tackle this, then each generation will get successively more desensitised..ad infinitum...imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 07:45 AM

To be a chav is a choice. To be a "paki" is not. People who choose to act unacceptably merit condemnation.

Being told at school to concentrate and work in stead of staring out of the window at the pretty leaves does not exclude you from society. You can, if you choose, concentrate and work. If you don't - your choice. Those less abled or somehow disadvantaged (including by backgrounds where learning, reading, coherent speech, or mathematics are not normal) deserve help.

Those who won't learn (for example because something is mathematical or geeky) earn the consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 08:14 AM

Richard, you could no more get my mind to concentrate, than fly. That goes for hundreds of thousands of other children too. You need to concentrate your mind on that fact.

You have a conversation with me, and my mind is off having a thousand different conversations at once. A picture will come into my head and off I go, down a completely different pathway, eventually coming back, possibly, to the original topic.

This does not make me, or others, thick, it is merely that our minds work differently to yours.

For instance, take me to a museum, my son too, and within 30 minutes I'm jumping to get out into the fresh air. My daughter however, wants to live inside The British Museum, she adores it, soaks up every word, knows more than most of the staff I'd imagine, about so very many things inside it.   My son and I are both "OK, seen one arrow, seen the entire thousand on display! Sunshine here we come!"

I fall asleep more often than not, reading books, or watching a film. I always know when I've read a great book, seen a great film, because it's KEPT my attention. Same with a great teacher too, or a wonderful CD.

The other day I went to Totnes Museum. Well, I was really enjoying looking at the costumes, the kitchen, the bedroom etc, because I related to it all, saw the four poster bed and whooosh my mind was away with faeries in moments, seeing the lovers there from so long ago...But then, Charles Babbage came up..and there he was sitting at his desk, and on that desk were some Logarithm papers...YIKES! not seen those horrendous things since school. Charles was looking angry, apparently, because there was a mistake in some of the numbers, and they were getting the public to try to work out where they were....All I saw was an ocean of meaningless numbers, no pictures to them, just squiggles, mesningless squiggles....and that was it, I was away over the other side of the room and back to the lovers in that 4 poster faster than Mr. Babbage could do a mathematical equation!

The difference between my mind and yours is that I understand how we all think differently, and why. I know that the lights in my brain ignite in places where you have no bulbs, whilst your brain is lit in a totally different way to mine. Your brain may be filled with Babbage Bulbs, mine is filled with Faerie Bulbs. Each has their place. Others have Brain Surgeon Bulbs. Musical Bulbs. Writer's Bulbs and some, of course, have a mixture of many.

We need different brains for different things in life. Nature designed us so. School, so often, demands that we all learn the things that 'they' have decided we need to learn.   Some may never write, never be able to, but they may be the best storytellers in the world. Others may never be able to read, yet have vivid imaginations.

The Education System in its arrogant ?'wisdom'? is damaging many brains, making them study and study and STUDY things they loathe, that do no ignite their brain in the slightest. ALL that does is turn off the bright sparkling bulbs that have been in those brains, in other 'rooms' completely. And you are left with an empty museum, filled with nothing but the colour Red, an Angry Red, that causes its owner to lash out with tongue and fist to all those they regard as The Enemy.

ALL lights should be handled with care. Every bulb in every brain is inserted before birth, turned on at birth, and should remain LongLife Bulbs for Eternity.

Education is turning them off, in a Massive Power Failure, the likes of which has never been seen before.

It's up to those who run Education to decide if they want to reconnect The Lost Bulbs to The National Grid once again.


By all means criticise me, but hey, please don't treat me with disdain purely because whilst most of my class was doing logarithms, my brain was connecting with light, with sunshine, with shadows, with grass, with leaves, with clouds and sky, with shimmers and glimmers...for after all, it was a man seated one day under an apple tree who came up with a wondrous idea..........

My brain never stops marvelling, wondering, thinking, seeing, questioning....

On the BBC board some thought I started thread after thread to dominate the board. No such thing was even going through my head, it was merely that I had a thousand and one subjects I could talk about, start threads about, dream about, wonder about...

I am proud to be A Dreamer...

:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 08:24 AM

And manyoung people join 'tribes' because they are fearful not to. They also go on to then behave as the tribe leader tells them, but inside, they may well be shuddering at what's going on. Do they have a choice? Well, yes, they do, but it's not that easy for so many when they're young. Few people have the guts these days to be individuals. They run with the crowd, eventually learning to fit in, even whilst hating doing that very thing.

Once again, I'm not saying that bad behaviour is OK, it most certainly isn't...and it makes me as fumingly angry as anyone else, but I can understand why it's happening.

Just yesterday on the bus two young people started playing their music REALLY loud, at the back of the bus. Everyone sat there fuming, you could see by their expressions.."Young people!!!"   I simply turned round, smiled at them, then said, "Excuse me, but could you please turn that down a bit?" They did so immediately, apologising..and I thanked them. End of story, no harm done...Yes, it irked that I had to say it at all, but again, if no-one tells you, then perhaps you never think how irritating it is to others. Always worth a try..and if they don't respond to Mrs. Nice Gal, then they get Mrs. Angry, which usually does the trick too, but I always try the nice approach first.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 08:48 AM

"To be a chav is a choice. To be a "paki" is not. People who choose to act unacceptably merit condemnation. "

Wrong.

You're out of touch.

CHAV is a term of abuse use by the working class to describe the underclass, and by the middle classes to describe the lot.

It suggests that the user of the word has better taste, understanding and, effectively, hiigher social status than the person hhe is describing.


It was a word imposed on a particular demographic, not one chosen by them.

It is said with scorn and spite and has a similar dehumanizing and degrading purpose as Nigger, Paki etc.

To be a chav is to be scum.

If you are unsure about this, go and look up www.chavscum.com, a very popular and long lived website which is a source of great amusement to thousands of visitors to the site from all over the country.

Who knows, maybe you'll have a little chuckle yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 09:00 AM

That should have been www.chavscum.co.uk ...

but it doesn't matter as it doesn't seem to be working.

However, instead why not check out www.chavtowns.com

Its great - whole towns are condemned as being inhabited by lowlifes.

Usually neglected suburbs.

You can tickle your entertainment gland with such witticisms as this (I know how you appreciate wit Richard):

"North lynn is a typical chav suburb of the shit hole kings lynn. its heaving with scum, who tend to live in council houses with 9 other people and a family of kids all of which have different dads as the mum (generally a hire bike) forgot to take her pill. usually because they were getting stoned with there ten year olds and getting there twelve year old to go to the 'paki shop' to buy 8 or more bottles of coke, (h)while waiting for a 'fat off' Indian to arrive."

Ahhh ... there's nothing like a stereotype to put a smile on your face eh? ...

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 09:53 AM

Lizzie Cornish: "Richard, you could no more get my mind to concentrate, than fly."

Lizzie, calm down. Everything is alright! Richard can't even get his own mind to concentrate...so you're safe!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 12:07 PM

Thank you, GfS. :0)

Excellent posts, Lox.

Well, I've just got back from town. Whilst I was waiting for the bus there was a young couple there, about the same age as my son, 16/17..
The young girl was dressed in a white and pink shell suit, with a white hoodie. Her partner had baggy jeans and a T shirt. Both were smoking, and the young girl already had yellowing teeth, not an ounce of make up and a really bad crop of teenage spots, poor love.

They had with them a pushchair, and I could just about see a tiny pair of feet sticking up, so...being a real soppy apeth where babies are concerned, I smiled at them both and asked if I could have a quick look inside. They both smiled back..and the young mum proudly pulled down the hood of the pushchair, to reveal her beautifil, sleeping 6 week old baby girl, immaculately dressed in a tiny deep pink dress with white lace on. She looked adorable, clean, comfy and well loved.

I ooohhed and ahhhed and then I told them not only how beautiful she was, but how very, very lucky they were to have her, as babies are a real gift. I told them to remember that, even in the darkest hours of the night, when they've not slept for hours and hours...or they can't get their thoughts together because of the "But..WHY?..Mum!" questions in a few years time...They beamed. They not only beamed, but they glowed with happiness. They both had gentle voices and he helped her on the bus with the pushchair, both of them saying goodbye to me.

The thing is, some may have passed them by and sniffily thought what bad teenagers they were...but there was real love and happiness there. So sometimes, stepping out of a stereotypical way of thinking is a good thing to do, because honestly, you'd be surprised to find that possibly the 'chav' you're moaning about has all the worries, hope and dreams that you do, but perhaps theirs are all bigger....and sadly maybe less able to come true.

Anyway, that's the last from me in this thread. Nothing more to say about the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 01:19 PM

Lizzie, you may be handicapped (although I doubt it, technically). All you have to do is focus. Your choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 01:19 PM

Oh, 100