BS: Some people are so stupid...

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 07:33 PM

Blimey, I never knew that. What a wonderful thing education is...

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 07:25 PM

Chav is a noun

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 07:14 PM

"I don't know what you mean by 'glory,' " Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't—till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!' "
"But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument'," Alice objected.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master      that's all."
Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. "They've a temper, some of them—particularly verbs, they're the proudest—adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs—however, I can manage the whole lot! Impenetrability! That's what I say!"

Ring any bells?

MP

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 07:00 PM

"Just because people are working class, lower class, underclass, poor or claimants does not make everything they do right. "

I didn't say that bad behaviour from a poor person is any more excusable than bad behaviour from a rich person.

What I'm saying is that the word "chav" isn't used in the way you suggest.

It is used to describe a particular demographic.

When I was in leicester, if you came from Beaumony Leys, New Parks or Northfields, you were considered a Chav by people not from there.

Don't go up there - its full of chavs ... etc

None of them of course saw themselves as Chavs, but each saw the other two that way.

You may have your personal understanding of "Chav" that you apply to people based on their behavour, but the reality is that most people don't use it like that.

It is a derogatory term for a social category also known as the scum of the earth.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 06:04 PM

Lox, you have not heard. It is not about class. It is about a subset of behaviour. Plenty of people of working class, plenty of people from the underclass are not chavs.

You are not listening because it does not suit your version of the class war.

Just because people are working class, lower class, underclass, poor or claimants does not make everything they do right.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 02:37 PM

Still don't know what a 'chav' is..but if it's somebody else new to hate, I'm sure the 'libs' will bring it to our attention!..........Oh, you mean they already have?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 09:52 AM

Janie,

Thanks for your post.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 09:23 AM

"Lots of my friends grew up on housing estates - and some of them, like me, grew up in rented housing. Those people are not chavs and neither am I!"

Thats how you use the word Chav.

The fact is that the word chav is a derogatory term that refers with contempt to people perceived by the user to be lower class.


I do find it odd that so many of you take umbridge at being told that.


If you really want to call people chavs, thats fine - go ahead - call them anything you want.


The meaning and purpose of the word are what they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 02:30 AM

There was not long ago a long-ish thread here on the roots of the word "chav". Certainly I would heavily distinguish "chavi" - a word that IMHO respects the origins of a true Romany, from "chav".

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Janie
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 11:54 PM

Still trying to understand from across the pond. Not asking anyone to take the time to explain, just very aware of my own cultural incompetence.

Found the following, using Max's development site and highlighting "Chav."



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CHAV

The press in Britain has recently been having fun mocking a group for which pejorative descriptions have been created such as "non-educated delinquents" and "the burgeoning peasant underclass". The subjects of these derogatory descriptions are said to be set apart by ignorance, fecklessness, mindless violence and bad taste.

To illustrate the last of these, critics point to their style of dress: a love of flashy gold jewellery (hooped earrings, thick neck chains, sovereign rings and heavy bangles, which all may be lumped together under the term bling-bling); the wearing of white trainers (in what is called "prison white", so clean that they look new); clothes in fashionable brands with very prominent logos; and baseball caps, frequently in Burberry check, a favourite style. The women, the Daily Mail wrote recently in a characteristic burst of maidenly distaste, "pull their shoddily dyed hair back in that ultra-tight bun known as a 'council-house facelift', wear skirts too short for their mottled blue thighs, and expose too much of their distressingly flabby midriffs".

This upsurge of popular distaste towards one group may be evidence for a cultural shift back towards a class-ridden British society — at least the fear that it might be so is causing some alarm in liberal circles. Critics point to the copying of the style by many younger television celebrities as a further dumbing-down of that medium. Much of the attention is due to the experience of a Web site, which was intended to be humorous but which was infiltrated by extremists who threatened to turn it into a hate site.

From a linguistic perspective the most interesting aspect is the wide variety of local names given to the type. Scots call them neds (often said to be an acronym of "non-educated delinquents", but that's a folk etymology, given credence by being mentioned as fact during a debate in the Scottish parliament in 2003; it's actually from an abridged form of the given name Edward, which was attached to this group in the period of the teddy-boys, who dressed in a version of Edwardian costume), while Liverpudlians prefer scallies (a term of long-standing for a boisterous, disruptive or irresponsible young man); Kev is common around London (presumably from the given name Kevin, common among this group and popularised through the portrayal on his television show by the comedian Harry Enfield of an idiotic teenager with that name). Other terms recorded from various parts of the country are smicks, spides, moakes and steeks (all from Belfast), plus bazzas, scuffheads, stigs, skangers, yarcos, and kappa slappers (girls who wear Kappa brand tracksuits, slapper being British slang for a promiscuous or vulgar woman).

The term that has become especially widely known in recent weeks, at least in southern England, is the one borrowed for the name of the Web site, chav. A writer in the Independent thought it derived from the name of the town of Chatham in Kent, where the term is best known and probably originated. It is also commonly said that it's an acronym, either from "Council House And Violent" or "Cheltenham Average" (the word being widely known in that area). As usual, we must treat supposed acronymic origins with the greatest suspicion; these examples are definitely recent after-the-event inventions as attempts to explain the word, though very widely known and believed.

But it seems that the word is from a much older underclass, the gypsies, many of whom have lived in that area for generations. Chav is almost certainly from the Romany word for a child, chavi, recorded from the middle of the nineteenth century. We know it was being used as a term of address to an adult man a little later in the century, but it hasn't often been recorded in print since and its derivative chav is new to most people.

Other terms for the class also have Romany connections; another is charver, Romany for prostitute. Yet another is the deeply insulting pikey, presumably from the Kentish dialect term for gypsy that was borrowed from turnpike, so a person who travels the roads.

Did chavi die out, only to be reinvented recently? That seems hardly likely from the written and anecdotal evidence, and many correspondents report that it is well known to them as a spoken term in various parts of the country; what we're seeing is a term that has been in active but inconspicuous use for the last 150 years suddenly bursting out into wider popular use in a new sense through circumstances we don't fully understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 11:20 PM

Speaking of which:

No surprise to me


LONDON DAILY TELEGRAPH - very embarrassing!
   
The American people can now more readily "understand" why the Obama's were omitted from the guest list to the Royal wedding in April! This is a very sobering article. Our handling of relationships with the Britons over the oil spill didn't help either.


From The London Daily Telegraph Editor On Foreign Relations

Quote:

"Let me be clear: I'm not normally in favor of boycotts, and I love the American people. I holiday in their country regularly, and hate the tedious snobby sneers against the United States . But the American people chose to elect an idiot who seems hell bent on insult ing their allies, and something must be done to stop Obama's reckless foreign policy, before he does the dirty on his allies on every issue."

One of the most poorly kept secrets in Washington is President Obama's animosity toward Great Britain , presumably because of what he regards as its sins while ruling Kenya (1895-1963).

One of Barack Hussein Obama's first acts as president was to return to Britain a bust of Winston Churchill that had graced the Oval Office since 9/11. He followed this up by denying Prime Minister Gordon Brown, on his first state visit, the usual joint press conference with flags.

The president was "too tired" to grant the leader of America 's closest ally a proper welcome, his aides told British journalists.

Mr. Obama followed this up with cheesy gifts for Mr. Brown and the Queen. Columnist Ian Martin described his behavior as "rudeness personified." There was more rudeness in store for Mr. Brown at the opening session of the United Nations in September. "The prime minister was forced to dash through the kitchens of the UN in New York to secure five minutes of face time with President Obama after five requests for a sit down meeting were rejected by the White House", said London Telegraph columnist David Hughes. Mr. Obama's "churlishness is unforgivable", Mr. Hughes said.

The administration went beyond snubs and slights last week when Secretary of State Hillary Clinton endorsed the demand of Argentine President Cristina Kirchner, a Hugo Chavez ally, for mediation of Argentina 's specious claim to the   Falkland Islands , a British dependency since 1833. The people who live in the Falklands, who speak English, want nothing to do with Argentina . When, in 1982, an earlier Argentine dictatorship tried to seize the Falklands by force, the British -- with strong support from President Ronald Reagan -- expelled them.

"It is truly shocking that Barack Obama has decided to disregard our shared history," wrote Telegraph columnist Toby Young. "Does Britain 's friendship really mean so little to him?" One could ask, does the friendship of anyone in the entire world mean anything to him?

"I recently asked several senior administration officials, separately, to name a foreign leader with whom Barack Obama has forged a strong personal relationship during his first year in office," wrote Jackson Diehl, deputy editorial page editor of the Washington Post, on Monday. "A lot of hemming and hawing ensued." One official named French President Nicolas Sarkozy, but his contempt for Mr. Obama is an open secret. Another named German Chancellor Angela Merkel. But, said Mr. Diehl, "Merkel too has been conspicuously cool toward Obama."

Mr. Obama certainly doesn't care about the Poles and Czechs, whom he has betrayed on missile defense.   Honduras and Israel also can attest that he's been an unreliable ally and an unfaithful friend. Ironically, our relations with both Israel and the Palestinian Authority have never been worse.   Russia has offered nothing in exchange for Mr. Obama's abandonment of missile defense.   Russia and China won't support serious sanctions on Iran .   Syria 's support for terrorism has not diminished despite efforts to normalize diplomatic relations. The reclusive military dictatorship that runs Burma has responded to our efforts at "engagement" by deepening its ties to North Korea .

And the Chinese make little effort to disguise their contempt for him.

For the first time in a long time, the President of the United States is actually distrusted by its allies and not in the least feared by its adversaries. Nor is Mr. Obama now respected by the majority of Americans. Understandably focused on the dismal economy and Mr. Obama's relentless efforts to nationalize and socialize health care, Americans apparently have yet to notice his dismal performance and lack of respect in the world community. They soon will.

-- London Daily Telegraph editor -- Alex Singleton

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 06:57 PM

I'm quite sure we would all find it very interesting and pleasing to meet and talk together. As you say, we have goals in common. I do feel it's important never to sit back complacently and think one has reached perfection in ones philosophy. I have lived a long time, and will never, I know, get close to achieving understanding, but one can only keep trying. It's folk with open and sincere minds that help me to make progress.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 06:42 PM

Eliza - Your last point was an excellent one. As the nuns at that retreat warned you, yes, you can fall into another level of self-delusion (spiritual pride) as you begin seeing yourself as "the wise one". You betcha! ;-) Just one more level of the ego-mind that can snare you along the way. I've watched it snare others. I've watched it snare me on occasion too. As you put it, "another costume for the play".

I am genuinely seeking what lies at the heart of life, and I'm absolutely sincere about it, but I would not describe myself as "the wise one". I am, as I said before, just barely beginning on that path. I'm a novice...and I know it.

There is something absolutely beautiful inside each one of us, no matter who we might appear to be at present. I'm seeking it. I hope to find it or at least get closer. I hope the same for every else around me. May we all progress in whatever way suits us best.

I believe that if you and myself and "Mad Polly" were to meet in regular 3-D life, we would find ourselves in good company. We could easily be friends. We are all striving for something better, as far as I can see.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 05:55 PM

Quite.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 05:19 PM

Just out of interest I have just come back from the off-licence. King Street - The one at right angles to ours, that I walk up and down at least once a day, has been closed yet again due to a major fracas, resulting in yet another shooting, caused by these poor little victims of society. This is the third time in two years.

I know that all I need to do is walk up to them, smile, speak softly and cuddle them but when they are pointing a Smith And Wesson I do find it rather difficult. Poor little dears don't know any better though. I wonder how come my kids seem to know that shooting another person because they looked at you funny is not the polite thing to do though?

Anyway - There we have it. Last night - 2 likely looking lads very kindly letting me know that I was tempting potential theives and today a group of thugs (am I allowed to say that btw?) glassing and shooting each other outside the local boozer. Makes life interesting don't it :-)

MP

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 04:44 PM

No trouble, Eliza. carrying on on the other thread and to anyone who thinks I have gone mad(der) on there - Tough luck, I am not posting a link back here just for your benefit:-)

MP

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 03:08 PM

I'm glad you've cleared that up, MadPolly, and I'm sorry I misunderstood you. But I wonder if words are so very 'literal' when written, as on the Mudcat? Sarcasm, disgust, anger, can all be sensed from a thread. (Or perhaps, as in this case, misinterpreted by me!) I too love a laugh, but many posters are very serious about what they post, and I for one take them seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 02:54 PM

Ah - OK - No, I understand now, Eliza, and in answer to your question - No I was not sneering. I do wonder though how a sneer can be implied through the word laugh. Maybe Humpty Dumpty was on to something after all. He would have had a great time on the internet wouldn't he :-)

I think it is Little Hawk on the other thread that says, far more eloquontly, that it is more like how peope interpret what is meant by words. I could indeed imply a sneer in face to face or even purely vocal conversation. But on the internet we have only the actual words to go by and the verb to laugh should only ever be used to mean to laugh and to sneer should only ever be used to sneer.

I think you may have misinterpretted my intentions, or maybe been mis-informed? Anyhow, either way, I am a great believer in calling a spade a spade and a laugh a laugh. And a laugh was the whole point of the thread. Something that a lot of others are resolutely ignoring.

Cheers

MP

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 02:24 PM

MadPolly, you said "I have done little but laugh..." It seemed to me you are actually sneering. But do forgive me if, as you say, I am wrong. Like Humpty Dumpty (I have read the other thread) I also mean exactly what I say.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 02:14 PM

I'm pretty sure I don't mean sneer Eliza but as I have no idea to what you are refering I could be mistaken I suppose :-S

I refer you to the other thread, which I hoped would take some of the arguing away from here -

When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.

Cheers

MP

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 02:10 PM

Mad Polly, do you mean 'sneer'?

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 02:06 PM

I have done little but laugh since it began LH - maybe not for the reasons you think but I have found it profoundly amusing. I would like to thank you for your sage words all the same and agree that your synopsis is an excellent description of what goes on all the time on here.

Back to the thread title I suppose... :-)

MP

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 02:01 PM

LittleHawk, again I'm grateful for your time and patience in explaining the 'role theory' to me, and I agree with the viewpoint, except I can foresee a major flaw. How does one know that one has succesfully shed the layers of role-playing veneers, and stripped away the different personas, and that what one is left with is not actually yet another 'role'? Self-delusion is such an easy trap to fall into. I wonder if, having tried hard to lose the false and inappropriate opinions and postures, does not one risk adopting the new role of 'The Wise One'? The sisters warned me of this. Just when I was feeling quite pleased that I'd made progress, I had to beware a sense of pride, that I was now 'The Enlightened'. I suspect I had merely put on a different costume for the play!
Lizzie, thank you for the video. With regard to young people 'rejoicing in ignorance', I think it's just the fashion these days. I don't know whether damaged minds CAN be put back together. The mind of a child is a sensitive and delicate thing, and injuries run deep, like a young tree which will carry scars all its life. That is why, like you, I worry about how children are treated and raised in today's climate. It isn't a particularly healthy one.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 12:43 PM

What you are experiencing here, Mad Polly, is the same thing that happens to any person who sticks their head innocently up above the parapet and says something on a public forum on the Internet.

You didn't realize that you were in the trenches and that a war was about to start all around you. You begin to realize it, though, when a whole bunch of people in those other trenches just across the way start firing their guns at you! It's surprising and frustrating to discover that your innocent attempt to simply express some thought you had has triggered a thread war which you never intended to declare.

You get mad. You fire back. Various people take your side and also start firing back at those who fired at you. Other people join those who fired at you and the battle increases in fury and dimension.

You pull out the BIG GUNS. You tell them all to "FUCK OFF". Nice explosion. ;-) But to what effect? The war goes on, regardless.

At this point I am thinking it might be a good idea to put down the rifle, burn the uniform, and start walking home, because the thread you had in mind has ceased to exist, it's been replaced by a mental war between a whole bunch of people, and there's not a darned thing you can do about it except walk away and find something else to spend your time on. NOTHING you can say will get everyone on this thread to understand your original point, because they are too busy making THEIR point. Their point is the only one they really care about. ;-) They don't care about your point, and they never will. There's absolutely nothing you can do about that.

Except maybe laugh. ;-D And then go find something that makes you smile.

I think that's what I'll do right about now.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 12:40 PM

Richard Bridge: "Yes, I in the UK object to US cultural and linguistic imperialism."

Speaking of 'stupid'.....'US cultural and linguistic imperialism.'?? You mean ENGLISH??????????..which we got from England??? YOU???

BUT..English is a great language!!
Some stupid idiots bitch about EVERYTHING!!! Then, somebody comes along, promises them 'political change'.....then we're fucked!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 12:15 PM

I wonder which bit of "Now, how about returning to the original point - It was a humorous incident. Not a deep meaningful portratal of the class struggle". is so difficult to comprehend? OK, I know I spelt portrayal wrong but this is probably down to ADHD or dyslexia or seeing someones bum when I was 3 so I know that can be excused.

I have already said it twice but, here goes third tome lucky, to those who seek to excuse bad behavior and foul language. FUCK OFF

Thank you

MP

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 11:55 AM

Consciousness, Creativity and the Brain

Eliza, you may like this video.

Perhaps, if all students were taught to meditate, taught Spirituality, given far more time to Be, and far less time to Be Examined, then maybe many young people would WANT to gather knowledge, would want to continue to continue with the natural learning ability we are all born with.

No baby is *born* a 'chav'....and perhaps there are people on this thread who need to remember that.

What people are not asking on here is WHY so many young people seem to almost rejoice in ignorance. When they start to ask that, then start to realise the answers, they may find that the educationstress industry is very much a part of the problem.

Oh..and 'chav' can also stand for 'council house and violent' in some folks eyes. Nice, huh?

I wasn't raised in a council house, but I was raised in a rented house on a private estate, where, until folks became wealthy enough to start buying the houses up, all houses looked the same, albeit with a slight difference in their styles. There were three colours of paintwork, green, blue and yellow....green, blue and yellow...on and on those colours went, right around our estate. My family's house stayed one of those colours long after many others had bought theirs, been able to paint their own colour...My dear Dad never did get to buy his house, despite us living there for 27 years. He loved that house with all his heart though...

Since that time, every house I've bought, apart from our first one ever, has been 'different' to other houses, and even to this day, living in a row of uniform houses makes me want to run away.

To live all your life on a council estate, particularly a bad one, brings its own stigma. To know that others make fun of you, think you're stupid, lower than shite, or some kind of social disease, brings anger and that anger keeps on growing, especially when you find that you are unable to break free from the very life you so want to...

Until society addresses what is so wrong within it, why it's become so fractured and how to stick it back together, things will continue in this vein. We will never put Humpty Dumpty back together though if, as we do it, we stick plasters on him with 'chav' written in bright, glow-in-the-dark colours.

Inside many minds that have switched off are bright but damaged brains. Those brains can all be brought back to a healthy state, but...I guess its far easier to medicate the children, call them names, curse them or put them in prison, rather than admit we are getting things so, SO wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 11:40 AM

Eliza - Well, the nice thing about the roles we play...or might decide to play...is that you are free to take them on at any time you desire. The important thing is that they don't take you on which is what happens when you get so caught up in the role that you forget that you are anything BUT that role. That's when the role has taken you over, made you its unconscious servant, and you are, in essence, under its control rather than being in charge of the situation. You are no longer able to drop it if you choose, because you're forgotten that you have the choice!

Thus do people get completely overtaken by their political roles, their religious roles, their gender roles, their role as "boss" or "underling", their various socially acquired roles....and once taken over by a role they lose much of their original spontaneity, their humanity, their flexibility, and their self-awareness. They get lost in the role they are playing.

That's sort of like an actor in a play who forgets that he is in a play. He might be playing a villian in that play...he might be playing a hero...she might be playing a patriotic and loyal German fighting for the Nazis in WWII...she might be playing a feminist crusader in post-modern America... ;-) Whatever the role is, good, bad or indifferent, you've gotten lost in in it once you can't see beyond it anymore. And you will then fight the endless battles which that that role seems to demand of you...and feel righteous in so doing. Many of those battles may be pointless, they may be harmful to you and others, and they may not serve you well in the end. An inner state of peace would not opt to fight such battles at all. You see them raging constantly on this forum, in the world, in politics, in human relations, inside us, and all around us.

A role can end any time you decide it's not serving you any longer. You just take a clear look at it, let go of it, and stop playing it. But it can only end if the "actor" realizes it's just a role. If they firmly believe they ARE that role at an intrinsic and permanent level, then they are trapped by it. And they will keep fighting just as that role demands of them until they either wake up from it....or die. Whichever comes first.

So did thousands of young Japanese in WWII go forth on Kamikaze missions or suicide charges, and they gave up their lives. They played out the self-sacrificing role that their society had taught them...to the very end. Unfortunately, within that rigid military command structure even those individuals who were self-aware enough to question and possibly drop that role had almost no possible way of doing so. A great tragedy, and it consumed a generation of brave and very capable young people. That's how powerful a political/social role can become.

Every role automatically assumes its own rightness and its innate justice (whether or not it's truly right or just). And that is believed by those who take up the role and they serve it righteously...unless and until they experience a dramatic re-appraisal of the role they've been playing. Then they might see through it and drop it...usually for another role. I've met some people who turned from deep belief in a religion, for example, to deep hostility toward all religion (or at least that religion), and I've met people who did the exact opposite. They exchanged one militant role for another. They became taken over by the new role they had chosen and began fighting the new battles it demanded. They got lost in the roles they were playing.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 10:12 AM

"In the process making sweeping judgements about hundreds OF thousands of unemployed, uneducated people on housing estates all over the country."

Lots of people I know are unemployed - I'm unemployed! Those people are not chavs and neither am I!

Lots of my friends grew up on housing estates - and some of them, like me, grew up in rented housing. Those people are not chavs and neither am I!

Perhaps YOU need to stop making sweeping generalisations, Lox!

Finally, chavs WERE educated! They received a free, state education - as did I and my friends. Where there were gaps in my education I filled them myself - it's only because they didn't take advantage of their free education and because of their wilful ignorance and stupidity that chavs didn't do the same and are classed as "uneducated".

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 09:46 AM

Mad Polly,

If you actually read my posts, you might notce that I haven't said anything to criticise your account of your experience.


Huh? Where did that come from? I suppose I could say that if YOU read MY posts you will notice that I haven't said anything to suggest that you HAVE said etc. etc. But it would all seem a bit childish and pointless wouldn't it. After all, did I not say, no more than a few hours ago, "Now, how about returning to the original point - It was a humorous incident. Not a deep meaningful portratal of the class struggle".

I am more than happy to discuss the working class struggle, meanings of words or the price of fish with anyone. But why do it here? In fact - I'll make it easy for you. I will start a thread where you can pontificate away to hearts content. Look out for "The meaning of words".

Cheers

MP

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Allan Conn
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 09:35 AM

"Wogs begins at Newcastle". Lived in Scotland for half a century and never heard that expression. Though admittedly that doesn't mean it doesn't exist - but it certainly isn't a common expression. Whoever made it up doesn't know their geography. Poor old folks of rural Northumberland get ignored again :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 09:01 AM

An earlier post was eaten so here it is again ...

in response to:

"When I was in Scotland, there was a saying "Wogs begins at Newcastle". Where does chavs begin? "


The answere is that Chavs begin in Newcastle too, since in scotland they are referred to as "Neds".

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 08:54 AM

Mad Polly,

If you actually read my posts, you might notce that I haven't said anything to criticise your account of your experience.


The word Chav came up and I pointed out that it is a derogatory word.

It is one.

There is no argument there until people start defending their right to generalize about Chavs.

My intention is to get people to question the way 'Chav' is used.


Why should that get peoples knickers in such a twist?

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 08:45 AM

"You're determined to see everyone else as a closet racist, though, aren't you?"

Nope.

I've informed people on here what the word Chav is and what it means.

I'm saying that the word CHAV is a derogatory word imposed on Britains white underclass.

My assertion is backed up by every dictionary I have read, all of which describe the word Chav as derogatory.


This piece of information has caused quite a stir.

People seem to want to defend their right to use this word.

They do so by criticizing how Chavs behave.

In the process making sweeping judgements about hundreds OF thousands of unemployed, uneducated people on housing estates all over the country.

The word "chav" buys straight into the whole daily mail idea of scrounging lazy spongers.

When ever I hear the word used, it is in conjunction with other swear words eg 'bloody chavs' or 'fucking chav etc'

Chav is not a word that is said, but a word that is Spat and discarded in the gutter.

Comparing them to Mods, Rockers, Punks etc is wrong as all those groups called themselves those names and were proud to be members of that group.

Chavs were labelled and despised first and then reclaimed the word chav for themselves afterwards.

There is a serious problem concerning the development of the uderclass in Britain, and using the term Chav to foster contempt for them does noothing to address that problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 06:33 AM

all people are stupid for some of the time. no people are stupid all the time. generally,crowds are more stupid than individuals. when criticising others for their stupidity, be well aware of your own stupidity.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 06:10 AM

Racism is a misnomer; as Shimrod says there is no race. There is ethnicity though, and there is xenophobia, and there is paranoia and collective idenitity. At the end of the day, there are only ever human individuals who manifest both the best and the worst of what it means to be human. Social creatures though, seeking belonging, which very often means losing sight of other individuals who are only ever doing likewise. Culture has no objective existence; it is always a subjective condition entirely dependant on individual perpection - you can never pin it down saving in the most general terms which will always lead to intollerance - hence the most nauseating aspects of this thread which just aren't worth responding to.

Our culture in the collective reality of us all; in my nieghbourhood that includes Chavs, Neds, Teachers, Nurses, Policemen, Youth Workers, Hippies, Moslems, Hindus, Goths, Emos, Christians, Folkies, Boy Racers, Witches, Piss Heads, Skinheads, Smack heads, Pagans, Urchins, Fowl Mouthed Kids, Pensioners and benefit savvy single mums. I think of it as Pigeon Street - or else Shameless - especially as the nights get lighter and they're partying in the streets into the wee small hours. Anti-social? You bet, but I never hear the police-sirens, and if the occasional fued breaks out into blood-shed, there's always a story to account for it. I don't suppose we can expect anything else really, but in my entirely working-class life lived on the front line, I've rarely witnessed any truly mindless violence - there is always a story.

England, my England - and the people, Lord, thy people - which all comes down to a few simple words: Live and Let Live - and, above all, Respect. In the words of Frank Gallagher - This is our England now...

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 06:08 AM

Thanks to those who are getting this thread out of the mire of petty squabling and point scoring. Now, how about returning to the original point - It was a humorous incident. Not a deep meaningful portratal of the class struggle:-)

MP

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 05:24 AM

"Having trouble finding a good Scapegoat?"

Not really Lox - seeing as you're asking. You're determined to see everyone else as a closet racist, though, aren't you?

I acknowledge that, to a greater or lesser degree, all of us have an inbuilt fear of strangers and that this can be a trigger for racism. That hasn't stopped people from living in multi-ethnic societies for thousands of years though. It's when unscrupulous rulers and priests etc. invoke the 'fear of strangers' instinct for their own nefarious purposes (usually political or economic) that the trouble starts.

Our rulers, in the UK, have decided that (probably for their own unscupulous political and economic reasons) racism should be discouraged. As a result it appears to me that there is less casual racism around than when I was young (you would have to ask members of ethnic minorities if that was really true).

Having educated myself on these matters I do know that 'race' doesn't actually exist (every person on Earth is an 'anatomically modern human') - so it's a bit of an irrelevance really.

What I do believe though is that every person has the ability to contribute to a progressive society and a healthy environment.

I also believe everyone also has a RESPONSIBILITY to use their abilities for the common good. This is why I despise the wilfully stupid and why I believe that it does no good to treat certain members of society as passive victims. To do so is to fail to recognise the particular person's innate abilities and to write them off. To my mind the effect is the same as actively discriminating against them.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 04:35 AM

LittleHawk Thank you very much for your extremely interesting and thought-provoking answers to my questions. You mention 'people with experience doing this'. I have spent some time on retreats with contemplative nuns, who practised 'inner silence' and it sounds rather like the goal you describe. The sisters encouraged me to do just as you say, to eradicate all the strident and powerful content and try to 'empty' the consciousness, leaving space for the true nature of oneself to emerge. (It wasn't necessarily for Christian or even religious people, as anyone was welcome.) The experience made me see that there is indeed an awful lot of imposed and self-contrived 'rubbish' inside one, and what I personally was left with was a childlike naivety. I found this refreshing, liberating but also a bit frightening, as you do feel vulnerable without your armour and your role, like going on stage with no script and no lines! (This is a bit of a drift from 'chavs, but immensely fascinating.) Eliza

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 03:37 AM

Yes, I in the UK object to US cultural and linguistic imperialism.

Otherwise, LadyJean, you appear to demonstrate that you were supported, focussed, and got on. You may never be a maths professor, but you did your best and seem to have benefitted.

Lox, ask yourself why it's is ALWAYS (yes I mean that) chavs who physically attack goths, never the other way round? There's nothing wrong with being working class. There's everything wrong with acting like a chav.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 02:26 AM

HBO documentary The Whites is about a family in West Virginia whose name is White and are the quinticential Hillbillies whose men are primarily coal miners. The children are featured and show how they are rewarded for mimicing the adults who are more child than adult.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Janie
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 12:28 AM

Interesting thread to this southern USA hillbilly.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 12:27 AM

Eliza, to answer some of your questions, which were good ones...

"an inner, third level of being which is essentially 'pure'. Would you say that it is present in, say, a very young child, and subsequently becomes submerged under the veneers or roles invented by the adult?"

Yes. Absolutely. It is present in a very young child, and that is one reason why we find the innocence of young children (and young animals) so beautiful. There is a purity and simplicity there. There is no intent to harm. They are not yet doing the kind of complex mental roleplaying and hiding behind behavioral masks that they later learn from the society and the family and time they get born into. It's not a third level of being, though, it's the primary, essential level of being. Personality and all forms of cultural conditioning and mental conditioning get pasted over top of it, so to speak, year by year from quite an early age until they completely cover it up. At that point it appears to have been "lost"...though it's still there, but hidden underneath the outer acquired mental layers. It's usually not being consciously accessed at all any longer by the outward personality, although it can be accessed in brief moments of 'satori' (a feeling of complete peace and beauty which people will sometimes experience when watching a sunset or a rainbow or in some other evocative moment). I think it can also be accessed in moments of inspiration and great creativity.

"I wonder how one could access this original level."

By silencing the mind, yet remaining keenly alert and receptive. Quiet awareness. No mental chatter. This is NOT easy to do! You have to completely stop the habitual incessant flow of thoughts (your mental monologue or dialogue...people often mentally imagine a dialogue with someone else, specially when they disagree with them)....stop all that mental chatter and simply observe in silence, without any evaluation, purpose, prejudice or judgement. One good way to quiet the mental chatter is to closely observe your own breath rising and falling, and stay with it. See where it takes you.

Imagine what it would be like to be completely without ALL your established political, racial, class, cultural, religious (or non-religious), national, ethnic, and gender-based beliefs, assumptions, and partisan positions....all of which are learned mental postures of one kind or another.

Different? You bet. It would be a completely fresh and unbiased look at things. It would be a bit like being "born again"... ;-) ...because a young child is for a short while free of all that culturally added baggage. Even free of having a "name" (Your name is not who you are. It's a label. You can change that label, but who you essentially are remains.)

"is this concept at all linked to that of 'righteousness', a goal aimed at by spiritual and philosophical 'pilgrims'?"

Yes. Absolutely. Religions, at their more esoteric or their deeper mystical level, attempt to regain that original pure state of awareness...one that has been linked symbolically with concepts like "Paradise", "Eden", "Heaven", etc. (At their more superficial levels they play all the usual dirty political, money and power games that have given religion a bad name.)

"Would it not be quite difficult to strip away those carefully constructed layers? (and scary, perhaps?)"

Yes! Very difficult, because your mind absolutely does not want to become silent and give up all its familiar (mental) "posessions"...it's habitual positions, reactions, and stances and its emotional dramas. It equates the giving up of that with its own death. Thus it is very scary to the mind. The fear vanishes if you manage to do it, though, and is replaced by a great sense of expanding peace and beauty.

I have not reached a point where I'm much good at doing what I'm alluding to here. I'm barely beginning. I just know a bit about it, because I've known a tiny handful of people who clearly can do it...so I know it's real. And I study it. I work toward it. How do I know it's real in those people? Simple. Just by being around them a good deal and seeing what they are like, how well and kindly they conduct themselves, and by listening and observing carefully.

It doesn't mean that you have to join some kind of religion. That is not necessary at all. You don't have to join anything, in fact. You don't have to believe in any specific deity or set of rules. You just access what you originally were, before you got programmed by the culture all around you, your family, your nation, etc. The original you, before you carried ANY acquired prejudices, political grudges or fear.

If I'd never encountered people with experience doing this, I'd probably have given it little consideration. As it is, I now give it a great deal of consideration.


*****

Roleplaying is fun, and it can be quite constructive if you pick a constructive role. I roleplayed being a folksinger-songwriter for decades, for example, and it has had some good effects on me and on others, I don't regret it, but it IS a culturally acquired role...and I know it. (I took on that role because the people I most admired in my youth were a small number of really fine folk musicians, singers, and songwriters. I sought to emulate them and built myself the role accordingly.)

As long as I know it's a role, then I am free to use it...instead of it using me. But beyond that, I am more than the role I play. I'd like to connect with that in me which is beyond the outer role I play. To the extent that I do, I can play the outer roles in a much more effective and harmonious way.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: LadyJean
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 08:31 PM

I was born with a nice assortment of learning disabilities. I'm never sure whether it was a good or a bad thing that my family was the way it was. My father and both my grandfathers were lawyers. My mother and both my grandmothers were college graduates. It was decided early on that I would go to college too, if it killed me.
(It came close.)

A different family might have said to themselves, "Oh well, she's a girl, she'll get married. She doesn't need Algebra." (I haven't had a lot of use for it, which is good because I have no aptitude for it. But my parents insisted I take two years.) That was not an uncommon view in the fifties, sixties and even the seventies.

If I had been born into a different family I might now be illiterate or semi literate, that limits your options a bit.

I'm lucky I wasn't born into a family of athletes. I am not well coordinated. If I'd had to focus on sports, I think I might have killed myself.

The point I am trying to make is that different families value different things, and pass those values along to their kids. You can challenge those values, but it's going to be tough. If Mum and Dad don't think studying is important, don't expect them to turn down the telly so you can do your maths.

Incidentally, if you REALLY want to get a black look in Great Britain, use the American word for something. We're rather amused when someone from across the pond says boot instead of trunk or cinema instead of movies. The British will correct you immediately if you say trunk instead of boot or movies instead of cinema.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Joe_F
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 07:51 PM

In addition, you get an appreciative glance from me as you go past.

*

When I was in Scotland, there was a saying "Wogs begins at Newcastle". Where does chavs begin?

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 07:43 PM

Gosh, I never even heard of 'Chavs' before this thread...but upon hearing the word, it sounds like something you get if your pants are too tight..and you walked a long way, real fast!

Sincerely,
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 07:29 PM

Having trouble finding a good Scapegoat?

Are you uncomfortable about Stereotyping people with brown skin?

Not sure whether Travellers, eastern europeans or the Irish are still legitimate targets?

Why not try "Chavs" ... the homegrown alternative.

They're British, so you'll be supporting local produce and noone can call you racist - whats more, they are a scapegoat everyone can despise.

Just imagine apending a lovely evening chatting to Mr and Mrs Singh about how you love curry, when suddenly you need a scapegoat to blame for the cuts?

What are you to do ... Blacks and Asians are off limits ...


Have no fear, there is now an answer.

"Hello Mr and Mrs Singh, we love curry, don't we dear, yes, but don't you just hate Chavs ... and don't worry, they're english so this isn't racism"

etc etc etc


PS I live in the inner city.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 07:23 PM

Actually, I don't exist....I'm just letters and words that appear on a page!(Keeps my chops up!)

wink!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,to chav or not to chav
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 05:50 PM

I'm such a working class snob I do my level best to avoid living among chavs.
Being a poor working class snob (who can't afford £100 trainers or £200 a week for White Widow and Coke), that's not as easy to do as it might be if I were more middle-class and tolerant.

"Wogs wot can't talk proper" make far better neighbours, plus I like the smell of curry far better than that of weed.

Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 05:41 PM

You're speaking of 2 common levels of the mind-constructed personality,

Sorry for the multiple posts (again!) It is just the way my brain works. I have just realised that this is something I was going to address. We used to call it 'Talking broad and talking bang'. Talking broad was, and still is, speaking in a manner that outsiders would not understand. Pretty much like the chavs in my OP. Talking bang is what was done in polite conversations with outsiders. I have always understood and done it. My Grandad did. My Mother did. It was perfectly accepatble to talk broad amongst your peers, but everyone talked bang when anyone else (like the bus driver) was involved. Those who cannot see the difference are, at best, immature and, at worst idiots.

BTW - While I was typing this the doorbell rang. Sorry for being so middle class... Anyway, there were two young lads outside letting me know I had left the satnav in the car, switched on! I thanked them of course and when I went to retrieve the satnav they had gone so I could not even proffer any recompense. This is the type of attitude that I know and expect in my City. There are those who would have it that inner cities are pits of despair and no go areas. There are those, on this thread, who have said that certain places are no-go areas. Yet, when it suits them. they cannot sing the praises of youngsters enough.

It is. I guess, those mind-constructed personalities once more. Maybe split-constructed. Or just wankers? I don't know...

Cheers

MP