The Teeter Totter Wall of Noise!

Subject: RE: The Teeter Totter Wall of Noise!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 12:01 AM

Joe F

there have been claims of 'stockpiles of sharps and other drug related stuff' at pharmacies... If you buy next years ticket now, they will give 20% discount - on the entry fee, no mention about other things ... :-)

Subject: RE: The Teeter Totter Wall of Noise!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 11:16 PM

Ah .... :-)

Music entertainment industry

QUOTE
Amplifying systems have become more sophisticated and powerful. One only has to think of the truck loads of equipment being carted from one entertainment venue to the next to get an idea. On a smaller scale the sound systems used in venues such as nightclubs etc, are powerful enough to cause, next to high sound levels, a sensation of vibration in the body. This has become another experience which patrons apparently wish to have when visiting such venues.

As well as hearing loss, exposure to the vibration from loud speaker systems can cause internal organs to vibrate at a much faster rate than the body trunk. This in turn may cause damage to those internal organs.

Music sound levels

Sound level surveys conducted in nightclubs, hotels and other entertainment venues found average sound exposure levels from pre recorded or amplified live music in the mid ninety to one hundred decibel range. Peak sound levels were also measured in excess of 140dB Peak (C). Often with sound levels of this magnitude the base(sic) sounds are enhanced as well and cause a vibratory or thumping sensation in one's chest.

It is not uncommon to see young people standing close to a bank of speakers to experience this sensation.

Noise control measures

As with all risk exposures in the workplace, risk management must be applied through a hierarchy of control measures, i.e. elimination, substitution, engineering and/or administrative controls, and as a last resort, or as an interim measure, reliance on protective equipment.

The control of music entertainment noise should, wherever possible, be controlled through engineering and/or administrative noise control measures.

Some examples of engineering noise control measures for loud music include:

    * install a sound limiter to ensure that the music volume does not exceed a pre-set limit. This is particularly advisable in venues where different DJs operate the sound system. Sound limiters work on the principle that a warning is given that a pre-set level is being reached. If the warning is ignored the limiter cuts out the music
    * install a sound ceiling above the dance floor. A sound ceiling consists of a structure suspended from the building ceiling with acoustic tiles and directional speakers mounted in it. This results in loud music over the dance floor but which drops by about 10dB at about one and a half to two metres from the dance floor
    * enclose or partition off the DJ booth and bar area with glass or perspex to ensure the sound levels inside these areas are within the prescribed limits

UNQUTE

:-)

DEIR clearly know the difference between dB(A) & dB(C)...

Subject: RE: The Teeter Totter Wall of Noise!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 10:54 PM

Also John....
Noise - Workplace Health and Safety Queensland

Subject: RE: The Teeter Totter Wall of Noise!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 10:47 PM

JiK

This is the Qld legislation that the 'Music Industry' wants to pretend it is covered by ....

http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/SLS/2008/08SL442.pdf

It's all in dB(A)... of course. As an 'injaneer', can you explain WHY 'music' should be measured on the A scale - 'noise' obviously is...

apart from the gibbering nonsense the now ex-Queensland Attorney General sent me in a letter with gibbering nonsense about how my ""concern about deafening levels of (120dB(C) which registers as 60 dB(A)) music noise not being measured in dB(C) was unfounded, after all, dB(A)"" - which is how the legislation measures it, as dB(A) - ""measures all notes in music, not just those in the scale of C major""...

Previous threads...

Tech: Noise in the Scale of C !!!

Noise - next on the Agenda, please!

Subject: RE: The Teeter Totter Wall of Noise!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 08:29 AM

Lots of panic, but no one harmed apparently.

Flash flooding hits Easterfest in Toowoomba

One giant tent collapsed under weight of rain, ripped ... see pics.

Well, some had questioned whether the site of the Jan flash flood still was an appropriate site...

Subject: RE: The Teeter Totter Wall of Noise!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 09:48 PM

There is a lot of use of shipping containers at 'arts festivals' for all sorts of purposes OTHER than sound deadening... :-)

Subject: RE: The Teeter Totter Wall of Noise!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 09:35 PM

Of course, John, I doubt that "screams of the illegal migrants trapped inside" would compare with 10,000 watt elevated pole stacks 100-150 metres away and aimed directly horizontally at the wall ... matters of 'scaling' - since 'water doesn't scale' for film effects, I have my suspicions about sound transmission too ... :-)

What with the 'dispersion graph' of such stacks usually having the bulk of their energy at 90 degrees to the vertical face and all ...

Some locals have claimed that the inversion layer - town is sited at the top of the Great Dividing Range - helps channel the sound down Gowrie Creek miles away... The festival site is at the bottom of a large natural 'bowl' with ground sloping up all around it. Topology also cannot be ignored. This 5 metre high wall is not tall enough to affect any of that - and if it reflects the sound in its current location, it is likely to increase that sound path down Gowrie Greek.

Subject: RE: The Teeter Totter Wall of Noise!
From: ripov
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 09:21 PM

Quite right leadfingers, if they learnt to play banjo instead of guitar they wouldn't need amplifiers.

Subject: RE: The Teeter Totter Wall of Noise!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 09:13 PM

"filled with music"

based on previous year's 'EF street music' read loud amplified rock music. Much louder than acoustic buskers who are 'not really approved', even discouraged at other times of the year, because they are 'too loud and annoying'. Of course, this is 'just homeless bums' versus a large corporation. There are claims of 30% growth each year over the last 10 years. Figures of 20-30000 paid attendees are claimed - multiply that by the campers percentage - claimed to be high multiplied by the 'season ticket price' - for other similar events easily up to $300 each ... who cares about a few 'homeless bums'? :-)

Subject: RE: The Teeter Totter Wall of Noise!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 09:05 PM

Actually I suspect that the increased reflection back towards the stage will increase their feedback nightmare ... -) And when they get their 'super wall' next they will have to pull back the amplifier power ...

"If you play guitar A and the listener is behind huge guitar B, is the sound not diminished by the time it filters through to reach the listener?"

After some thought based on my experience and no other answer, I'd say "No" - no more than if the B were not there at all. Have you also never noticed that when a guitar is played, on any acoustic guitar close by, the strings vibrate and you can feel the vibrations via the sound box?

The sound will move in more than just a simple direct line. In the case of this event, you can already hear echoes from buildings surrounding the park. People can clearly hear the annoying noise several hundred meters away through double glazed windows in high rise modern concrete buildings. This is at a level well above the 5 metre high suggested wall. You'd need a wall 50 metres high ...

Subject: RE: The Teeter Totter Wall of Noise!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 08:51 PM

What may look like 'gravel pathways' are to my recollection pathways laid of poured concrete. These usually may be poured in a lengthy 'run' with stress relieving 'slots' that look like block separations to allow controlled cracking, or actually laid in alternate blocks which are then later interleaved with the next batch a few days later. They are usually about 4 inches thick, and do not always have steel 'reo' encapsulated. The actual berms would have been well above any flash flood level, but some other local parks have had to be closed because of ground sogginess. Historical research reveals that Queens Park was used as a clay quarry for brickmaking in the 1800s - becoming a fly ridden rubbish tip which was later filled in and 'urban parked'. A large amount of money was spent on creating this sunken auditorium, including some Federal grant funds so it is reasonable to assume that competent engineering and material selection processes were used. The questions of park damage, and why it take them about 3 weeks of 'hogging the park' (commercial rates like a Circus - no comment! for the 3 days of the festival and cut rates of the rest of the 3 weeks!) and the taxpayer cost of restoration have been of public interest.

Actually John, laser drilling (or plasma cutting) may be quicker and more cost effective. Trust me they will not waste the time to drill the holes to 'do a proper job' (ethnic English locale joke!) anyway - they prefer more 'direct action' - refer the 'london dan' post :-)

The newspaper report says "It is being constructed with shipping containers hired locally from Melco — a container hire company. " Google "melco australia toowoomba" - quote Melco Storage, Affordable, Safe & Secure Storage "Your Site...Or Ours" unquote - shipping containers are becoming a popular method of personal storage (bung a few on a block of land and hire them out) and even drop one in your front yard for 'temporary long term' storage, or 'pack/unpack your own - we transport' house moving. Most are the 'standard' 20 foot long. I put some time into research of these for house building, interesting stuff, and some really good looking results. Funnily enough, I have heard of local comments of 'refugee camp look of the park' - Aussies remember when a boat load of refugees was picked up by a container ship, and they turned a few empty ones into housing... make the news :-)

The "London Dan post" is typical of the constant 'nicer' tricks the organization and its persistent Happy Clappy Supporters keep trying on. It's very easy to do that here now that Max Google-Indexes every post, and Mudcat has become less of a private club and more of a Public Resource Service. It should be noted that a TV Documentary of a local Church running a cafe in the main street as a business and allegedly bullying its young people to work long hours 'as a church donation' aired nationally some time ago here. Whether it is the Church that seems to be associated with this Festival, I can not recall at this time.

I can categorically state that I know of no such previous verified international documented use - it has been suggested that is a 'panic reaction' for very little return. Melco is laughing all the way to the bank though...

Previous day PR release - based on the Goebbels theory that if you shout loud enough and often enough, you can get people to believe anything you tell them. Such as 'millions of dollars for the region' - Wikipedia some time ago struck out that claim because although they were at first parroting some 'university report', strangely enough many requests for it first produced hostility, then evasion. No Peer reviewed Report on this topic by any credible verifiable source has yet emerged after nearly 10 years of asking for it. All such claims trace back to the organizers PR releases.

Interestingly we had Easterfest claims that Easterfest had outgrown the park and was now taking over the city = they even created a new domain for this campaign - ..... http://easterfestcity.com/

Easterfest is too BIG for the Park, so we're expanding into the city!

Easterfest is taking over the Toowoomba Central Business District. Cafes, restaurants, shopping centres, the Empire Theater, and public spaces will all be filled with music, film arts, and food. We are calling it "Easterfest City" and we hope you will be a part!

http://easterfest.com/article/easterfest-city/

Of course this foot in mouth 'clever' PR only created support for the locals who have been saying this and that it should move for years :-)

Goggle Toowoomba Chronicle - Easterfest ...

Subject: RE: The Teeter Totter Wall of Noise!
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 03:24 PM

To the extent that the shipping containers are likely to be of one of the larger configurations in common use, I would not expect significant effects from "resonance" of the boxes. The typical kinds actually are fairly resistant to transmission of sounds through the walls, as would be required for activation/compression of the large internal air spaces.

(A few cases in which the screams of the illegal migrants trapped inside one or another of the common ones were not heard offer an "experimental verification(?)" of this.)

The main concern, to the extent that the containers form a barrier would be with simple transmission through them, and in the near-field surrounding area. The critical factor affecting transmission is that the acoustic impedence of the container walls is significantly different than the impedence of the free air surrounding them.

In the simple case, all the sound that is not transmitted through the sidewall where the sound impinges must be reflected off the wall, with very little dissipation. With the barrier construction implied, sound transmitted through the containers should be reasonably attenuated, but even low efficiency reflection does nothing to reduce the total amount of sound energy, and "spillover" in the acoustic near-field cannot be expected to be reduced much.

In order to make the containers sound absorbent the energy must pass into the barrier in a way that dissipates much of the energy. This can be accomplished by drilling holes through the surface on which the sound impinges, since even "acoustic flow" through a small hole dissipates (essentially as waste heating) a large percentage of the impinging sound.

Holes of about 1/4 to 1/2 inch in diameter spaced around an inch apart, covering the entire side of the barrier facing the noise source should do quite nicely. Ideally, the sizes should vary randomly between the limits chosen. The suggested hole sizes are significantly larger than is commonly used for the internal noise reduction shrouds used to quiet modern jet engines (quite effectively); but the frequencies requiring absorbtion in the engines include very high frequency "whine" components not likely to be present in output of which the festival amplifiers are capable, so some increase in hole diameters is appropriate. The holes must cover very nearly the entire surface of the barrier facing the impending noise.

Since typical shipping containers are made from "hot rolled" steel or "tempered alumin(i)um," both of which resist drilling, somewhat larger holes than are optimum for maximum sound absorbtion are a trade-off with number of drill bits consumed, since it will require "a whole bunch of holes" drilled through very tough material.

It may be noted that the owners of the containers may have some objection to using this method, as it's doubtful that the festival management obtained permanent (legal) possession of them, so it would be important to ascertain whether the festival bears responsibility for their intact return, rather than those who drill the holes.

Regardless of how effective the barriers are or can be modified to be, the "open topped" venue and the placement of speakers that I visualize from the scant descriptions make it unlikely that the presence or absence of the barriers will have any significant effect on the actual sound levels outside the park, although effective absorbtion offers slightly better odds of "not making it worse" than is the case with reflective walls, which could just make a louder echo.

John

Subject: RE: The Teeter Totter Wall of Noise!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 01:14 PM

I suspect resonances and unforeseen reflections will occur. Volvo had three redesigns of the fuel injection system on the 940. The fuel line ran along a chassis leg, and the clicks in the fuel line as the injectors opened and shut were amplified by the chassis leg. It sounded, from inside the car, like a tappet badly off.

Subject: RE: The Teeter Totter Wall of Noise!
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 01:00 PM

I'm unable to find any photos that provide an overall view of the "concert area" to attempt to look at what acoustic properties might be "useful" for limiting outside sound, or any description of which of the multitude of kinds of "shipping containers" it's proposed to use to build the so-called barrier.

That gives very little basis for any prediction of what effectiveness the proposed construction might have.

I do find considerable comment on the generally destructive effects of assembling that large a brainless mob in any area of sufficient size to contain them.

A concern I see is the likelihood that the construction may produce significant additional - apparently unforseen -damage to the park.

The few pictures that may indicate the presence of a "berm" suggest that the most likely construction is earthen, with mostly grass cover. Some pics suggest gravel "pathways" on some areas that may be part of an elevated construction.

The entire area was under severe flooding in January. (For seasonal reference, those of us in the other end of the world must think "like June/july" as a weather reference. April down-under is more like October in the real northern world, so plants are are the end of their growing season rather than at beginning.

The rules applied with some success in camping areas here is that anything "parked" more than 10 days will kill all vegetation under it, so when we camped for the roughly 90 days while we were homeless, we were required to find a new spot every 10 days not occupied by anyone during the previous 10 days in order to be allowed to ignore the rule that you had to leave the park for at least two weeks after any 10 consecutive days of camping there. (We're on fairly good terms with the "campmaster.")

As it appears from the sparse reports, that the "shipping containers" are largely in place as of 14 April, and Easter isn't until the 24th, the "festival managers" apparently need at least 10 days to emplace them all, and will need another 10 to remove them after the festival. With light-blocking "structures" in place that long, all grass will be dead or at least dormant, and with sufficient warm-season remaining for rotting but insufficient time for regrowth, the berms may probably be considered "denuded" of any soil retaining plantings.

Structural inegrity of soil-based elevated structures are at risk with this plan.

It should be of significant concern that the damage will come at the end of the growing season, so the berms will probably have to overwinter with little or no protection.

This concern, of course, is based on inferences from sparse information about the construction of the structures involved, and assumes grass types "ordinary elsewhere" that may not be representative of the kinds common in Australia.

Damage may be less, or more, than I would expect for common park grasses here. Local seasonal conditions may permit reseeding with sufficient growth to achieve some restoration before the weather turns too cool, but I can't make more reliable prediction about the effects of differing biota and climate from here.

John

Subject: RE: The Teeter Totter Wall of Noise!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 09:31 AM

Have you link to those festivals and any photos, please? Not that I don't believe you... but ...

Interesting that "GUEST,London Dan" has never posted before this .... :-)

Subject: RE: The Teeter Totter Wall of Noise!
From: GUEST,London dan
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 05:30 AM

Sorry Fooles Troupe, but I have just come back from England and saw them use shipping containers at heaps of European festivals to limit noise. They don't stop it all of course but they do work to some degree.

Subject: RE: The Teeter Totter Wall of Noise!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 10:21 AM

The Council spent hundreds of thousands - some came from the Federal Govt as a special project - to build a special sunken auditorium with noise control earth berms. These were also built up recently because the organizers claimed that the auditorium wasn't good enough. The stage area was designed to be at the bottom of the area, so that sound spill was minimized.

The organizers insist on elevating the stage and speakers well above the level of the berms. The audience area is thus below the stage level. The speakers are massive - on tall vertical poles so the main axis of the sound radiates horizontally with only about 5% of the sound energy being able to go down to the audience - the bulk of the sound is projected out into the town. You can hear echoes off surrounding buildings. The SPL in the mosh pit is still about 100-120dB(C) - enough to cause deafness. Most of the amplification power is wasted for the paid attendees. The organizers will not accept this obvious observation, as "they are the experts".

Subject: RE: The Teeter Totter Wall of Noise!
From: leeneia
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 10:44 PM

Maybe they were staggering because they had been stunned by the volume.

It doesn't sound like much fun, F'troupe.

Subject: RE: The Teeter Totter Wall of Noise!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 08:29 PM

Now Joe - you are so naughty.

The organisers - linked to notbornyet.com and local churches via searches on the net intend this to mean 'no drugs or alcohol' - but they will do no bag searches, and are not cooperative when it is suggested that having the drug dogs pay a visit to validate their claims. Watching the many 'staggerers' outside the event definitely gives the lie that there are no drugs or alcohol on site though.

Subject: RE: The Teeter Totter Wall of Noise!
From: Joe_F
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 08:03 PM

"Australia's biggest drug and alcohol free music festival" -- does that mean a free festival of music for drugs and alcohol, or a festival of free music for drugs and alcohol? Either way, I want a ticket.

Subject: RE: The Teeter Totter Wall of Noise!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 07:54 PM

They are desperately trying to spin things

Easterfest trials noise control

Claims of 'millions of dollars raised' are interesting - the organizing company has links to notbornyet.com and certain local churches. There are also shared Post Boxes with the local LNP political party.

Subject: RE: The Teeter Totter Wall of Noise!
From: GUEST,Nick E
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 07:52 PM

I think the sound waves will hit the wall and while the contaners may resonate, they could dissipate the noise close to the source rather than letting it travel past them. I dont think it is that bad an idea, even just the physical barrier will help reduce noise for those on the far side.

If you play guitar A and the listener is behind huge guitar B, is the sound not diminished by the time it filters through to reach the listener?

Engineers please weigh in!

Subject: RE: The Teeter Totter Wall of Noise!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 07:37 PM

They have a stack of about 10,000 watts about 100 metres away.

I have read 95 dB(C) several hundred metres away in previous years. They think by putting these empty steel boxes in the way, that they will QUOTE reduce the rumble UNQUOTE. They will guarantee increased reflections, thus increased feedback. They have the stage and speakers elevated ABOVE the top of the specially built earth berm around the sunken auditorium - and they are stacking these hollow boxes 5 metres high on the narrow top of this earth berm.

Chooks will not walk on the ground at that distance away in previous years! They sit off the ground and grumble all day.

The wavelength of the rumble is longer than even the length of these boxes! The massive bass boost they use such that 120 dB(C) equates to 60 dB(A) is right in the resonant range - not to forget that a mostly sealed box is a good Helmholtz style Resonator (depends on Volume), and at that size, the overtones (a totally different series from the ones that occur in open pipes, rods, etc) will be right up in the music range.

They will resonate!

Subject: RE: The Teeter Totter Wall of Noise!
From: leeneia
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 09:39 AM

They may be empty, but they'll be closed up, surely. I don't think sound waves will get them to reverberate. You'd probably have to step up to one and hit it with a stud (2 by 4) or baseball bat to get it to make a sound.

In other words, a blunt instrument rather than an instrument.

I give the musos two hours before somebody wonders how to incorporate a container as a percussion instrument, however.

Subject: RE: The Teeter Totter Wall of Noise!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 08:56 AM

My brain has fried ...

Why build a Wall around a Concert Stage?

Subject: RE: The Teeter Totter Wall of Noise!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 08:40 AM

Oh no - I fell a song coming on ... to a well known tune...
(this is allegedly a Gospel Music Festival - run by the Australian Gospel Music Federation)

Will the wall, be unstable,
At the concert, in the park?

Run away ....

Subject: RE: The Teeter Totter Wall of Noise!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 08:27 AM

Well the boxes, according to my informant, are not stacked áccording to regs'. The bottom layer is mounted on two concrete sleeper like thingys each placed on the grassy ground of the park (which has seen about 3 years rain in the last 3 months... - remember those world wide videos of The Toowoomba Inland Tsunami? - that's the park it went thru mate!), and then two of those are placed on top of the first box, and the second one placed on top of that. Not as stable as 'designed', I think....

:-)

Subject: RE: The Teeter Totter Wall of Noise!
From: gnomad
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 07:21 AM

No reason to think the wall will be unstable, 5 metres is only two courses of standard boxes and containers are stacked much higher than that as deck cargo at sea.

However I don't think a wall of echo chambers will help the neighbours a lot. Maybe filling 'em with sand would do the trick (the boxes or the neighbours) but it would make the job a lot bigger.

Subject: RE: The Teeter Totter Wall of Noise!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 06:43 AM

Why is SO much Amlificatin used by some bands ??

Subject: RE: The Teeter Totter Wall of Noise!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 05:55 AM

I can see the election campaign now

We already have characters in our various Parliaments called "Chainsaw" & "Iron Bar"

Vote 1 for "Tin Can" Moody!

Subject: RE: The Teeter Totter Wall of Noise!
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 03:49 AM

"will reduce some of the bottom end rumble"

If it works I'll consider building a wall of shipping containers round my old man.

Subject: RE: The Teeter Totter Wall of Noise!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 03:18 AM

"will reduce some of the bottom end rumble"

Jik - where are you???? :-)

Subject: The Teeter Totter Wall of Noise!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 03:11 AM

This is fall about funny for musos!
Wanna comment internationally? :-)

Shipping containers to reduce noise

14th April 2011

A GIANT wall is currently being constructed around the Easterfest Mainstage to help curb the noise from Australia's biggest drug and alcohol free music festival.

The wall of shipping containers will be 100 metres long by five metres high when finished.

While Easterfest brings in tens of thousands of visitors each year, many Toowoomba residents near Queens Park have complained about the noise coming from the festival.

The Mainstage will be shut down by 9.30pm each night of the festival with some indoor venues operating until midnight.

"Our noise control measures will not stop all the amplified noise, however, we hope that the wall will reduce some of the bottom end rumble for those who live closest to the park," Easterfest CEO Isaac Moody said.

"If the wall is successful in helping control the noise, we will look at expanding the use of shipping containers for noise control in the future."

A notice of park closure levels and noise precautions has been mailbox-dropped to residents who live close to Queens Park.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes and they build resonant chambers on guitars to mute the noise NOT! If these containers are packed with lead and concrete, that would work, but hollow steel resonant containers will make the noise problem wider! Don't these clowns know ANYTHING about Sound, or have they addled their brains with all that loud noise!!!

The Great Ugly Dangerous Teeter Totter Wall of Toowoomba - I want photos to put up on that Failed! Website Please!

Oh - and Mr Moody wants to run for parliament! No, we dont have all the nutters over here!