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Folk Performers Association

Alan Day 16 Apr 11 - 03:25 PM
Phil Cooper 16 Apr 11 - 03:47 PM
DebC 17 Apr 11 - 08:54 AM
Alan Day 17 Apr 11 - 01:34 PM
doc.tom 17 Apr 11 - 01:38 PM
Andy Jackson 17 Apr 11 - 04:22 PM
Folknacious 17 Apr 11 - 04:37 PM
Ann N 18 Apr 11 - 03:23 AM
Alan Day 18 Apr 11 - 05:06 AM
DebC 18 Apr 11 - 08:38 AM
Ann N 18 Apr 11 - 08:38 AM
Ann N 18 Apr 11 - 08:53 AM
Alan Day 18 Apr 11 - 11:02 AM
Ann N 18 Apr 11 - 02:18 PM
GUEST,Howard Jones 18 Apr 11 - 02:56 PM
Leadfingers 18 Apr 11 - 04:51 PM
Alan Day 18 Apr 11 - 05:37 PM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 19 Apr 11 - 02:32 AM
Alan Day 19 Apr 11 - 03:45 AM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 19 Apr 11 - 06:26 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 19 Apr 11 - 07:01 AM
Alan Day 19 Apr 11 - 07:45 AM
ConcertinaChap 19 Apr 11 - 07:50 AM
GUEST, Tom Bliss 19 Apr 11 - 08:25 AM
Alan Day 19 Apr 11 - 08:43 AM
Will Fly 19 Apr 11 - 09:06 AM
GUEST, Tom Bliss 19 Apr 11 - 09:19 AM
GUEST, Tom Bliss 19 Apr 11 - 09:22 AM
GUEST 19 Apr 11 - 09:30 AM
Will Fly 19 Apr 11 - 10:22 AM
Alan Day 19 Apr 11 - 10:39 AM
Will Fly 19 Apr 11 - 10:54 AM
Nigel Parsons 19 Apr 11 - 11:41 AM
Alan Day 19 Apr 11 - 11:54 AM
GUEST, Tom Bliss 19 Apr 11 - 12:16 PM
Vic Smith 19 Apr 11 - 12:32 PM
Alan Day 23 Apr 11 - 06:53 AM
GUEST, Tom Bliss 23 Apr 11 - 07:19 AM
Alan Day 23 Apr 11 - 08:19 AM
Leadfingers 23 Apr 11 - 09:16 AM
Alan Day 23 Apr 11 - 09:20 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 23 Apr 11 - 10:59 AM
Alan Day 23 Apr 11 - 12:54 PM
Alan Day 01 May 11 - 06:05 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 01 May 11 - 06:14 AM
Peter C 01 May 11 - 06:33 AM
Alan Day 01 May 11 - 07:13 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 01 May 11 - 01:13 PM
Alan Day 01 May 11 - 03:23 PM
Bounty Hound 01 May 11 - 06:42 PM
Deckman 01 May 11 - 10:07 PM
Alan Day 02 May 11 - 05:47 AM
mikesamwild 02 May 11 - 07:51 AM
GUEST,Desi C 02 May 11 - 12:39 PM
JedMarum 02 May 11 - 02:21 PM
GUEST, Tom Bliss 02 May 11 - 02:55 PM
Bounty Hound 02 May 11 - 03:37 PM
JedMarum 02 May 11 - 03:47 PM
Alan Day 02 May 11 - 06:04 PM
Alan Day 02 May 11 - 06:24 PM
GUEST 03 May 11 - 02:24 PM
Alan Day 10 May 11 - 03:58 AM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 19 May 11 - 05:47 AM
Alan Day 19 May 11 - 06:04 AM
Bounty Hound 19 May 11 - 06:55 AM
Alan Day 19 May 11 - 07:13 AM
GUEST,Desi C 19 May 11 - 07:34 AM
Alan Day 19 May 11 - 08:46 AM
Leadfingers 19 May 11 - 08:48 AM
Bob TB 20 May 11 - 06:38 AM
Alan Day 06 Jun 11 - 07:43 AM
GUEST,FloraG 07 Jun 11 - 04:14 AM
Alan Day 07 Jun 11 - 08:41 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Jun 11 - 12:28 PM
GUEST, Tom Bliss 07 Jun 11 - 01:54 PM
Alan Day 07 Jun 11 - 03:20 PM
GUEST, Tom Bliss 07 Jun 11 - 03:36 PM
The Sandman 07 Jun 11 - 03:47 PM
Alan Day 07 Jun 11 - 03:50 PM
The Sandman 07 Jun 11 - 03:51 PM
michaelr 07 Jun 11 - 04:04 PM
r.padgett 08 Jun 11 - 01:46 AM
Alan Day 08 Jun 11 - 04:18 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Jun 11 - 06:33 AM
Rob Naylor 08 Jun 11 - 09:53 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Jun 11 - 07:41 PM
Alan Day 09 Jun 11 - 04:29 AM
reggie miles 09 Jun 11 - 04:42 AM
TheSnail 09 Jun 11 - 05:43 AM
Alan Day 09 Jun 11 - 05:55 AM
Alan Day 09 Jun 11 - 06:46 AM
Leadfingers 09 Jun 11 - 07:44 AM
TheSnail 09 Jun 11 - 07:51 AM
Alan Day 09 Jun 11 - 08:34 AM
r.padgett 09 Jun 11 - 09:24 AM
TheSnail 09 Jun 11 - 10:33 AM
r.padgett 09 Jun 11 - 10:51 AM
r.padgett 09 Jun 11 - 10:56 AM
Alan Day 09 Jun 11 - 12:27 PM
Alan Day 10 Jun 11 - 04:38 AM
Alan Day 16 Jun 11 - 02:57 PM
Alan Day 02 Jan 12 - 01:27 PM
GUEST,UK Folk Music - Alan Morley 28 Jun 12 - 05:03 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 28 Jun 12 - 06:15 AM
Alan Day 28 Jun 12 - 08:07 AM
Big Al Whittle 28 Jun 12 - 08:34 AM
Fidjit 28 Jun 12 - 09:57 AM
Big Al Whittle 28 Jun 12 - 10:09 AM
Fidjit 28 Jun 12 - 10:24 AM
Alan Day 28 Jun 12 - 11:58 AM
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Subject: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 03:25 PM

Should we start one ?


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 03:47 PM

There are several out there. North American Folk Alliance for one. Depends on what your goals are. Folk alliance, itself, has been accused of being more commercial/singer/songwriter oriented. On the other hand, that side of the folk world is better at articulating what they want. I, personally, have liked all the Folk alliance conferences I've gone to, but it's hard to say how cost effective going can be.


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: DebC
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 08:54 AM

The American Federation of Musician Local 1000 is a trade union specifically chartered for folk and acoustic musicians who perform the majority of their gigs outside their local jurisdiction.

We advocate for fair wages and better working conditions for traveling musicians. We are also one of the fastest growing Locals in the AFM.

Oh yeah...we do a lot of singing when we get together :-)

Debra Cowan
Eastern-Representative
Executive Board, AFM Local 1000


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 01:34 PM

It is the sort of organisation I was thinking of when I posted this. Not a straight attempt at undermining the EFDSS, but take representation of Folk musicians a bit further.
If most think it is not a good idea in the UK then no harm done.
Al


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: doc.tom
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 01:38 PM

Anybody remember PERFORM ?


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 04:22 PM

Short lived but good intentions as I remeber Tom.


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Folknacious
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 04:37 PM

What's a folk performer?


(off to get my asbestos suit…)


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Ann N
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 03:23 AM

Interesting idea, how would it differ from the Folk ,Roots & Traditional music section of the Musicians Union?


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 05:06 AM

Possibly it's already all covered by them Ann, this is really just a discussion to see if it might be worthwhile.
I would think that it would be a way for Folk Musicians to be a representative body that would be a larger individual voice to promote Folk Music in general, take advantage of the numbers to negotiate better deals for Instrument Insurance etc. Possible help to create funds for artists in financial difficulties due to bad health, or accident. These are just a few my thoughts, but the membership would make the decisions on policy.
Al


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: DebC
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 08:38 AM

Alan-We do have one UK member in Local 1000, Billy Bragg. But he does come to the States quite regularly and tours over here. What you describe above is EXACTLY what Local 1000 does. I would check with the UK Musicians's Union that Ann mentions above. Why re-invent the wheeel?

Debra Cowan


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Ann N
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 08:38 AM

It would be good to have an organisation that catered for "play for the fun of it, folk/morris musicians, non-professionals" (I hesitate to put amateur as there are a lot of very good performers who only ever play at their local folk club/Morris side), as well as people who earn their living by folk music.   

The ratio of non-professional folk musicians to professionals must be well in favour of the non-professional :)


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Ann N
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 08:53 AM

....... especially if the organisation charged less than the MU's £160 a year membership (for those earning less than £20,000 per annum from music, no discounted rates unless you're a bona fide music student)


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 11:02 AM

No inventions here DebC only a discussion. Something may come of it or not.
I was thinking along the same lines as you Ann ,not aiming for specific professional, or even semi professional groups ,but all Folk musicians.
There need be no fees involved , unless it was a legal matter and even there we could have a member who specialised in music matters.
Al


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Ann N
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 02:18 PM

A "Musicians Friendly Society" for friendly folk musicians    :D


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 02:56 PM

The dividing line between professionals and non-professionals is very blurred in folk music. In how many other genres do non-professional musicians (by which I mean those who rely on other sources of income for a living) regularly appear at major festivals, not only on the same bill as the leading musicians but possibly even on the same stage?

However I'm not sure what role such an organisation would be able to fulfil. The full-time performers have Britfolk as a source of advice and support, and the MU is there to provide pensions, insurance and the other support services the self-employed need, but which the non-professionals probably obtain from other sources. Promoting folk music should really be the role of EFDSS, and whilst I agree it could do better (extending its vision beyond Camden would be a start) I can't really see what Alan is suggesting being able to do a better job than it or the regional folk organisations.


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Leadfingers
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 04:51 PM

At least these days EFDSS is no longer only interested in Social Dance ! And there are a VERY small proortion of Folk Performers who have Folk as their ONLY souce of income !


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 05:37 PM

Howard I am just looking at whether we as a group could provide something better for the UK Folk musicians. It has been interesting that many of the alternatives suggested I have never heard of and certainly I have been around a long time. Perhaps more communication of what is being provided may be useful. From two steps back it all looks very disjointed. Perhaps Britfolk should open their doors wider.
We always look towards the EFDSS to take a lead and in some cases they do, but as an organisation they cannot cover all the interests of Folk Musicians Professional and non professional.or do you think that is wrong?
I must stress that this posting is suggestions for possible improvements,if any, if the majority of opinion is that organisations already exist are doing a good job and are not too expensive, then we can let this topic slide down the page to obscurity.
Al


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 02:32 AM

I'm not sure we're really homogenous enough. Jim Carrol always reckoned the folk revival lost its snap in England when you started turning up for an evening of traditional folk music and found jasper Carrot or somesuch character.

I've always felt it was the other way round - jasper seemed to fill most venues and people would get pissed off with interminable jigs reels and ballads about doom and gloom, and decide not to come next week.

Anyway, there was a civil war. you lot won. we stand in the wreckage. the jury's still out on whether we are talking to each other yet. theres a lot of frigid politeness about. i guess we'll have to meet up in the darby and joan club together, and play bingo and dominoes for a bag of sugar, and talk of the old times when we were all simply wonderful darling.

the reason the MU works is that its strictly business. You need to be a member of that or Equity in case you guitar string breaks off and blinds somebody in the front row.


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 03:45 AM

Well Alan you seem to have gone off at a tangent here and of course I remember those days as well as you. I did not enjoy and I still do not enjoy more chat than music, in fact my sing arounds do not contain any
chat at all, just music, singing and poetry (if a poet turns up ), no introductions at all.
There were a few very good comedians/Folk artists and a hell of a lot of second rate clones, what finished me off was going to a Folk Club on two separate nights, in two different places and seeing the identical act, word for word, joke for joke and songs performed by two different artists. One of which must have recorded the other and learnt the lot.

There is a lot that can be done for all artists now on the Internet, links to their Websites,New CD releases, events, Folk Club listing with links. All available now and spread around friend on Facebook etc.
Perhaps an initial dedicated page on Facebook may be a starting point. These things only work however if people are enthusiastic and join in.I see no reason why anyone should have to pay to join.
Al


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 06:26 AM

Hi Alan.

I think it sounds like a great idea. I tried to do something similar in Liverpool last year but didn't get any takers. I think part of the reason for that is that on the Irish circuit, particularly, musicians can be very territorial and jealous about safeguarding their 'patch' which means it is very difficult to persuade people to make short-term individual sacrifices for some uncertain, long-term collective gain. Basically, people instinctively look after number 1. I think I still have a copy of the proposal I drafted somewhere if you want to have a look at it.


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 07:01 AM

I remember putting the same point to someone who had the idea - years ago. I said, how are we going to unite - we are basically all small businessmen in competition with each other. we'd all cut each others throat for a twenty five quid gig.

He said, well the bosses do it. they have the CBI, and they're in competition.


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 07:45 AM

Thanks for your support Chris.I would be interested in your proposals
Once a site has been set up then artists would post all their own links and gig details,it would only require a few people, or even one initially to make sure the site is not being abused.Not sure there would be room for Utube postings, unless relevant to something being discussed or in the news.
Causes ,Politics and Religion, again requires serious thought.
I will hold your coat Alan
Al


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: ConcertinaChap
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 07:50 AM

> Perhaps an initial dedicated page on Facebook may be a starting point.

Sounds like a good thought, Al.

Chris


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 08:25 AM

Well, I'm one of the moderators for Britfolk, so I'll respond first to the comment about us widening our doors.

The door is already quite wide open, the official line is: "A discussion list exclusively for UK-based professional folk performers, including singers, instrumentalists, dancers, callers and storytellers. This list is restricted to performers living, working or seriously touring in the UK and earning all, or a significant part of their income in that way."

The reason we restrict to the UK is to keep a focus on UK issues and prevent the confusions that we sometimes see in international fora like this one. The 'siginificant part of their income' bit is to ensure that were all on a level field and feel happy to discuss things like incomes, fees and other sensitive issues.

When we set up Brifolk's sister list for Club Organisers, we decided for good reasons to allow non-club organisers who had some other business interest to join. It all came horribly unstuck as a result a few years later. I left at that point so I don't know how it's going now, but it hasn't convinced me to take the Britfolk door off it's hinges.

Note that BF is just a discussion group. It does operate a little like a union, in that there have been times when we (or rather perhaps folkWISE, the parent organisation) have done things that unions do, but there is, I think a consensus that BF is not a campaigning group. (I've been guilty at times of trying to make it so, so I know).

Some of the key MU FRTM people are members of BF, but not all BFs are in the MU, and not all agree with FRTM policy. I'm a big MU supporter (I'm in two other unions as well), but I don't agree with everything FRTM does - particularly when it comes to negotiations with PRS and the Government, where I feel the very reasonable MU focus on professional performers can run against the interests of the wider folk movement, and therefore the longer term interests of folk field performers.

So yes, I do think a Folk Performers Association that contains pros, semi-pros and ams is a good idea (as I still do of a Folk Club and Small Acoustic Venue Organisers Association - which was the reason I started the FCO group in the first place).

Many is the time I have pointed people at discussions here and elsewhere, and found they've not bothered to read the debate, or have just dismissed the points being aired as a minority view. Sometimes you do need to play the 'establishment' game, and be able to wave an 'official' badge to be taken seriously - even if your Association is very casual. If you're able to voice the zeitgeist, or just the consensus, or just be able to outline a list of well-supported points of view, you can make more progress than you can standing on your little soap box all alo-ney and a-lonely-o.

The Association would need excellent links with EFDSS, BF, FRTM and others for sure.

You'd have to decide if there was a committee, and if so how that would be constituted / elected / nominated (without spokesmen there wouldn't be much point of have the thing).

Fees? Well, actually I would suggest there should be a small nominal charge - first to provide a little cash for things like websites and expenses for tips to London for meetings or whatever, and second to prove a degree of commitment by the members. But without having to run a Cyril House Flats, or pension schemes or library/archive etc, the fee could be very small, and there could be a BF style discussion group too.

Though maybe Mudcat already serves that purpose - so should it just be the Mudcat Association?


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 08:43 AM

Tom thanks for your very interesting reply and suggestions that are based on experience.
I too agree that Mudcat offers an extremely good service to the Folk World in general, the information however gradually disappears down the page and useful links are gone with it. I would personally prefer all the business to be internet driven as that seems to be the best for communication, but these are only my thoughts.
I would much prefer a dedicated team to work together rather than make a job for me,which I could do without , I am happy to kick start it to get it going and then hopefully it would mainly run itself.
Or perhaps Britfolk covers all the requirements for everyone and this is unnecessary.
Al


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 09:06 AM

A discussion list exclusively for UK-based professional folk performers, including singers, instrumentalists, dancers, callers and storytellers. This list is restricted to performers living, working or seriously touring in the UK and earning all, or a significant part of their income in that way.

Not much of an opening here for those wishing to get a foot in the door. There may well be a number of aspiring performers who don't fit the criteria for Britfolk. I'm not criticising those criteria, by the way - I'm sure they're perfectly reasonable for the aims of that organisation - but there may well be a case for some kind of association for those that are a long way the income bracket.

I wouldn't join any association myself as (a) I don't count myself as a pure "folk" performer and (b) I'm loathe to join any association that would have me as a member... "-)


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 09:19 AM

Well I would say that Britfolk and the other existing organisations do what they do well, but there's no voice for the grassroots (well EFDSS include, but their very correct and worthwhile agenda does not address some important issues).

For example, we (might have been just me, actually) managed to persuade PRS to provide a reduced rate tariff for free-entry, no fee, all trad sessions, but at some point they stopped negotiating with me and went (without informing me) back to the usual suspects - and as a result it's not fit for purpose. When I found out what had happened I did try to rally support through the existing channels but did not make any progress, because I was one voice against powerful vested interests . That's the sort of thing your Association might re-balance.

A club organiser told me only this weekend that he wants to move the club - the current venue is not suitable, but the previous venue won't have them back because of the licensing issue, and he knows the other pubs in the area have the same objection. The new tariff could have done the trick because it it's held and paid for by the club, not the venue, but it only applies to a free-entry all-trad session or singaround - and this club has guests. What's needed is club-owned licences that can move with the club, while also having a reduced rate to allow for a percentage of public domain and non PRS member material.


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 09:22 AM

Will, we avoid the W I F debate. We use the broadest possible definition - in fact we don't really define at all. It's easy to spot the players who use the same ball as us - you'd qualify on that score for sure.

I'm also not a joiner, but if there'd never been any unions...


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 09:30 AM

Mike wrote;-
"I'm loathe to join any association that would have me as a member... "-)"


Perhaps the most rehashed of all the thousands of memorable quips by Groucho Marx.


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 10:22 AM

Ah, Groucho - The Master - a quotation I've used many times...


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 10:39 AM

Will ,many wouldn't have you as a playing partner,
but somebody had to.
I got the short straw !!
Al


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 10:54 AM

It's a dirty job, Al but - as you say - someone has to do it... :-)


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 11:41 AM

....... especially if the organisation charged less than the MU's £160 a year membership (for those earning less than £20,000 per annum from music, no discounted rates unless you're a bona fide music student)
Reading the website, it doesn't have to be a music student to benefit from the (small) reduction

Cheers
Nigel


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 11:54 AM

I would want a hell of a return for that sort of money Nigel.
Big money if you have a few thousand members.
Al


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 12:16 PM

£160 is a very reasonable sum, given what the MU does and represents.

You need to look beyond what it seems to do for you directly, and consider what it does for music and musicians in general - from which you do in fact benefit.

And then think of the support for musicians in distress. Because there, to date, but for fortune...


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Vic Smith
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 12:32 PM

From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 09:30 AM


was a cookie-less Vic Smith. When I decide to empty my internet cache to save space and time when I am on-line, I lose my Mudcat cookie - and I don't always notice when I post subsequently.


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 06:53 AM

I have now formed a page on Facebook
Just type in Folk Performers Association.
This will be dedicated initially for New CD releases, Folk Club information, Folk events, publications.
Open to the general public so be careful of what you put on there.
This is just a Pilot Scheme to assess the interest. If there is none then no harm done.
It is a non profit association of members.
Al


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 07:19 AM

A good start, Alan, but I for one won't be able to join up. I do have a facebook page, but it's switched off because I can't be bothered to work out how to delete it (and occasionally have to swtich on in order to contact someone). I couldn't stand the thing on bit. I think you'll find a lot of musicians are the same. You might want to do a MySpace as well, though I'll be stopping mine at some point, for the same reason, and I think a lot of folk performers are doing the same.

So if you don't get a lot of response vie FaceBook, don't assume that no-one's interested - though of course they may not be!

It might be good to have a place that people can join without having to sign up for all the tittle-tatle, prattling, flirting and brass-necked promotion that, for many, makes social networking sites a no go zone.


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 08:19 AM

I agree with that Tom,particularly "Causes" many of which I totally agree with, but to join it is so aggressive that I do not want to be involved with it.
I will listen to people like yourself and see what the general reaction is. If nothing, then no harm done ,no money changing hands, so no refunds to worry about.
Al


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 09:16 AM

I just poked my nose in to the Facebook Page


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 09:20 AM

Nice to see you on there.
Why not add your photo
Al


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 10:59 AM

Am I invited, even though Richard Bridge says I don't sing folk music?

I won't be offended, i've beeen excluded from from all kinds of places and take rejection and subsequent humiliation with complete sang froid and dignified silenece; albeit laced with black, implacable, vitriolic hatred.


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 12:54 PM

Dear Alan
There is nothing to stop you joining it is an open page for those that wish to join.
As a matter of policy if anyone posts an offensive, or unfriendly comment on the site ,it will be deleted.
On a personal note ,I take people as I find them, so I have no objections based on past experiences.
Al


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 01 May 11 - 06:05 AM

We are progressing nicely with this Facebook page.
There is currently a small discussion on Tax matters for performing artists and we are starting to get a few using it for advertising their current or forthcoming Folk events. It is a self post site for artists and Folk organisers to use and open to the general public.My old playing partner Clive Williams (Melodeon.net)is assisting me.
Al


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 01 May 11 - 06:14 AM

I went to the page but i couldn't see what you had to do to become a member.


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Peter C
Date: 01 May 11 - 06:33 AM

I too cannot see what you have to do to join the Facebook page! Is it me?


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 01 May 11 - 07:13 AM

Just click like and that's it
If you are a member of Facebook then your picture (or page)comes up on the list.
Al


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 01 May 11 - 01:13 PM

done it.


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 01 May 11 - 03:23 PM

Well done Alan and welcome.
Hope you will contribute.
Al


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 01 May 11 - 06:42 PM

I'd ignore Tom's advice above and steer well clear of myspace at the moment, last time I updated the Bounty Hounds myspace page I lost the will to live!
Agree totally with him about some of the rubbish people post on FB, but a huge number of performers do use FB as a means of promotion and networking, and just giving fans/friends an update on what you have been up to, so you will have to expect people to use it as a promotional tool as well as a means of sharing information and ideas.
Well done with the page, look forward to seeing it develop
John


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Deckman
Date: 01 May 11 - 10:07 PM

At 174 years of age, I've learned a few things. One of which is: trying to organize folksingers is like trying to push a rope! bob(deckman)nelson


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 02 May 11 - 05:47 AM

Thanks John for your support. It is now slowly building up speed with discussions and members advertising their events. In the early days I expect it to be driven a bit by me to get it started but hopefully once we develop a style it will roll on without me.Feed back is nice because you know then you are not wasting your time.
I understand your problems Bob (congratulations on your 174 Birthday by the way) normally a pint of bitter seems to sort most out.
Al


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: mikesamwild
Date: 02 May 11 - 07:51 AM

I may be like herding cats but good one Alan! I'm in . I am in several organizatin that started informally ( you have to be careful about words like umbrella as people don't want to give up autonomy, so networks, alliances , supporters , group, organization are less threatening)and now are doing good work with a membership that has some representation and a committe and some clout.

Much as I understand unions and support them , I never really liked the Perform crowd as it felt like pros making a living and we were just seen as vehicles in the clubs. We called it 'Persons engaged in ripping-off folkies or related mugs' and it folded rapidly.


Would Harry Cox have joined or Scan Tester?


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 02 May 11 - 12:39 PM

Alan, I was ast a conference last year attended by the EFDSS and they in fact thing a Folk association is needed but needs to incorporate Folk Clubs too. In the same way Storytellers have an association which through good communication can offer performers several bookings at participating clubs in exchange for a discounted rate, rather than have to get bookings one by one, and often travel long distances for just one boking. I'd like to hear more from the poster as to what they have in mind. Please mail me on crc778@aol.com


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: JedMarum
Date: 02 May 11 - 02:21 PM

I've been making my living at performing folk for 12 years. That and CD sales are my only income. I like the idea of a musician support organization and I have looked seriously at American Federation of Musician Local 1000 a couple of times, over the years. I still have in the back of my mind that I may join one day. But for now, I don't see any benefit.

I have been a member of the Folk Alliance organization, and worked at that for a couple of years - but in the end, found it did not provide me value.

I am NOT down on either organization. I just don't think they provide me benefit. So for now, I go it alone.

Having said all that, I find that the community of musicians among whom I work regularly - are quite supportive of one another, in very real ways.


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 02 May 11 - 02:55 PM

Bounty Hound said "I'd ignore Tom's advice above and steer well clear of myspace"

Actually I said I' was planning to dump myspace myself soon (for the same reasons as I dropped FB) - but if Alan can live with Facebook, then maybe he could live with myspace.

(I would probably keep FB for the reasons mentioned but I honestly can't work out how to run it 'clean' - and even if I did, they'd probably only do what MS did and change it all round for no good reason that I can see - so you have to work it out all over again).

I can see some merits in both sites, but a dedicated website might be best for the FPA.

The other idea might be to set up a Yahoo Group like Britfolk and the FCO forum (you could put instructions on the Facebook public access page, so non-members could join without having to sign up for FB. Costs nothing, and is very easy to do.

Messages only go to other members, but there's merit in that/


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 02 May 11 - 03:37 PM

Sorry Tom, read your post late at night in the caravan at Rochester Sweeps on the small screen of my blackberry, just re read it and see now what you said. Apologies again.

You should think about persevering with facebook though. We, as a band have found it an extremely useful tool, both for networking and keeping in contact with friends/fans, and promoting gigs. You can have people on your friends list and hide their posts, but they will still see what you put on there. That way you only see stuff put on by people you want to see, and you can block all the ridiculous game posts. Might be worth a second look.

John


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: JedMarum
Date: 02 May 11 - 03:47 PM

FaceBook has become a real effective tool for music business.

Not hard to use and people use it. It works. Myspace has become a real waste product, as far as I can see. I have not pulled my stuff off of it - but I rarely use it. It is cumbersome, slow as hell, buggy, demanding, absolutely FULL of adverts that divert you constantly. I hate it.


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 02 May 11 - 06:04 PM

Well at the moment the format of the site is as follows.
All postings are sent to me by Facebook so I get a daily check on what is being posted. We have had no nasties at the moment with about 60 visitors who click on "Like" to join. Their Facebook picture or avatar comes up at the same time.
They are free to post the following

Their New CD releases accompanied by related You tube link music if there is one.Links to their site
Folk Club Weekly (ideally) updated Programmes
New Publication releases with links to their Website.
Folk Festival information (deleted after the Festival)
Their Photos and Links to their site. (remember that all Facebook members are linked and can communicate with each other independently of the site page.
Links to Area Folk Websites.
Free to comment on articles submitted to the site.

Current ones running - Taxation discussion for Folk Professionals and ones recieving a Tax Assessments (what to do)
Accounts introduction.
I am hoping others will start other interesting topics, helpful to their fellow members.

No Youtube Videos are allowed only because it takes up too much space on the page. It needs to be easily updated on a regular basis to make it worthwhile.
Please remember that this is a new site so it takes time to get things moving but many are taking advantage of the Facebook page
Clive Williams Melodeon. net is my right hand man and I hope to get others on board to assist. This is not going to be a one man band but hopefully run by everyone for the advantage of each other. If EFDSS want to get involved I have no intention of getting in their way, or starting a rival to them (far from it).
I am getting no critical feedback at the moment, it is a pleasant and helpful site and long may it continue to be.
Desi C I hope this answers most of your questions, if not PM me and I will be pleased to discuss it.

Please note the site is Public so please do not divulge any information that may be sensitive.
Al


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 02 May 11 - 06:24 PM

I would like to thank all those offering helpful advice as to how they see the future of this society and it's format. I appreciate all input and will carefully consider the suggestions.
I have given up on My Space and now concentrate on Facebook, there are many more members who seem to be on it.I would have liked to have a members page, but all the members little pictures are coming up so we can make do with that. I like the fact that individual discussion can go on between members, independently , that forms friendships.I also like that it is free membership , all equal with no hierarchy .
It is basically an extension to what we have here on Mudcat.
Al


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: GUEST
Date: 03 May 11 - 02:24 PM

GUEST,Desi C

In the same way Storytellers have an association which through good communication can offer performers several bookings at participating clubs in exchange for a discounted rate, rather than have to get bookings one by one, and often travel long distances for just one boking.

I would be interested to know how that works as I have recently been involved in trying to help out artists find enough bookings to make it worth their while to travel some distance from the North or West down here to the South-East corner of the UK.


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 10 May 11 - 03:58 AM

We now have over 80 members of the association
Just click on "LIKE" to join
Advertise your events, New CD releases and New Publications.
It is a rolling page with out of date postings deleted .
No charge to join, or advertise.
Al


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 19 May 11 - 05:47 AM

Alan,

Have you seen this?

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=137981&messages=2

Chris


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 19 May 11 - 06:04 AM

Chris could not find the message you were referring to,I was concerned about whether the two groups (Mudcat and FPA) were clashing but a number on the thread and on Facebook have given their support so it will continue unless the members suggest otherwise.
If it is derogatory please let me know
Thanks
Al


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 19 May 11 - 06:55 AM

Alan, here is the thread on Mudcat that Chris is referring to.

UK Folk Club Network

You may already be aware, but John Richards and Damien Barber are attempting to establish a UK Folk Club 'support' network, for both Organisers and performers. I think Chris is suggesting on the other thread here that it would be worth you talking to them.

Facebook page for the John Richards/Damien Barber project is here
UK Folk Club Network: Facebook Group

Just sent you a friends request in FB if you respond to that I'll add you to the UK Folk Club Group and you could then contact John and Damien through that if you wish to.

John


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 19 May 11 - 07:13 AM

Thanks John,I am replying to it.Also thanks for joining my list,
Al


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 19 May 11 - 07:34 AM

From: GUEST
Date: 03 May 11 - 02:24 PM
Re the storytellers Association, if you contact The Trad Arts Team, Birmingham, they have a very good web site, think it's www.traditionalartsteam.co.uk or might just be tradarts.co.uk you'll get all the info. I'm sure they do a lot more than I'm aware of. But one very good aspect that I think could be easily adapet to all Folk performers and clubs.
If for instance you had 50 clubs in an association dotted round the UK a performer from abroad, or the UK wanting to travel round doing some gigs. Normally they'd need to contact individual clubs hoping for individual bookings, time consuming and expensive if they get one booking down south on a Monday and back up north next night. With the association he could contact one number, if his/her fee was normall say £200 the association could offer something like bookings at 10 of their clubs within reasonable distance of each other, for a reduced fee of £150, they could even, as the Storytellers org does, arrange support acts if needed at each club, Performer gets 10 bookings when beforehand he might only have got 5 or 6, no long travel between gigs, and clubs who might have not been able to afford booked artists now may be able to, everybody wins, clubs, performers and audience.

It works very well in other areas like the rock circuit and the comedy scene. Folk performers really struggle to make a living when with a more professional appoach like this the scene could benefit greatly I feel


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 19 May 11 - 08:46 AM

Interesting concept Desi C, I think any idea which could assist Folk artists has got to be investigated, One problem I could see is that many Folk Clubs have advance bookings way into the future, but a forward package of bookings in one area (say Devon) at a reduced rate may prove an interesting and also a negotiation of reduced Hotel bills for a longer stay may be worth investigating, particularly out of holiday season.
Al


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 May 11 - 08:48 AM

I was a tad surprised at the membership cost for M U !! I am in the other lot (Equity) and thats £90 a year if you are at the bottom end of the pay scale !!


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Bob TB
Date: 20 May 11 - 06:38 AM

I have long thought that it would be useful to have some organisation for folk clubs to share ideas and discuss common problems. Festival organisers have the AFO but there has been nothing at club level.

The danger is fragmentation and I think it's essential that we don't duplicate effort or end up in competition with one another. I know that the EFDSS have plans for club directories, event listings and so on on their new web site. It may be worth making formal contact with them. They do seem to be getting their act together at last.

I started the folk diary site www.SimplyWhatsOn.com to provide a single point of reference for all folk events - clubs, concerts, sessions, etc. It needs a lot more entries to be effective but it's a start and there are lots of ideas for the future. I would be more than happy to work with this project on club listings to avoid having another on-line listing and another place clubs have to enter their data (and save a lot of work!).

I'll have a little display for SimplyWhatsOn down by the river at Chippenham next weekend if anyone wants to come along and bounce ideas around.

Bob Hawkes


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 07:43 AM

The UK Folk Club network mentioned above is proving very popular and is exactly the type of page that I envisaged when setting up the Folk Performers Association. I have no intention of running a rival page to this new group , or any other group for that matter.
With this in mind I see no need to continue .
I would however like to express my thanks to those members who have joined and contributed.I will slowly dismantle the page, not with any regret, as long as we have representation that is all that matters.
Al :)


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 04:14 AM

Have been thinking about yout initial question Alan.

As a local band we do regular barn dances - WI local schools etc. I sometimes wonder what would happen if I was ill - where could we get another caller at short notice. Would a directory be helpful?

I should also like to know of any good agencies in the area.

When I started calling I went with Jack Hamilton to see a few of his dances. Does anyone else do this for new callers?

A thread on this site might sort most of these things out as I've had some helpful advice in the past. Would an association be any more helpful?

However, not everyone reads this site - and there are the bigger Qs - eg what folk will be in the olimpics

Still thinking about the issue.
FloraG.


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 08:41 AM

Thanks for your comments Flora and suggestions.
UK Folk Club Network may be just specialising in Folk Club activities only, which leaves a lot of space for individuals, (promotion of new CDs,tours, agency information (as you suggest), promotion of publications ,transport sharing and discussion on personal problems such as TAX, accounts etc.
The site is there for anyone to advertise and it is regularly monitored to keep it rolling.
I think it best that I just hold fire and see exactly what the other site is going to specialise in.If it covers all of the individual points I have mentioned then I will close it down.If it provides a service alongside it then it may be worth carrying on if all members agree
Al


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 12:28 PM

""I would check with the UK Musicians's Union that Ann mentions above. Why re-invent the wheeel?""

The Musicians Union is of little use to performers out of the mainstream of pop.

The attitude to grass roots performers is pretty much the same as used to be the case with relatives with a learning disability, namely "hide 'em away when we have visitors."

They are highly unlikely to take us seriously unless we are already making substantial earnings without their input, and then we wouldn't need their input anyway.

For folk performers Alan's idea would not be re-inventing the wheel, but more like releasing the brake.

The music industry in general is engaged in blocking folk music from any access to Media airtime, since they can't control it and therefore can't make money out of it.

It isn't, IMO, coincidence that the BBC is rapidly doing away with local radio folk programs and local television has never really featured folk in the first place.

With very few exceptions, radio music presenters are given playlists, from which they are not allowed to stray, containing all the latest manufactured groups and artists whom the recording companies want to promote and surprise, surprise, those playlists contain no folk music, nada, zip, zilch.

It's time we had some sort of organisation which represents the grass roots who would like a little more sunlight and slightly less fertiliser, supplying a chance to grow.

EFDSS have changed their attitudes and become less dance oriented, but I see little evidence that they particularly care about performers or clubs. It is the folk songs and folk dances which are their concern and raison d'etre, not the places in which they can be heard or the people who perform them.

Somebody has to make them see that the songs and dances will be an historical relic like the dead sea scrolls, absent the facilities for broadcasting them, and the facilities are the clubs and their performers.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 01:54 PM

Don T said "The Musicians Union is of little use to performers out of the mainstream of pop."

While I agree with most of your post, Don, that statement does demand a gentle rebuttal.

The Folk Roots and Traditional Music Section of the MU does a lot of very good work for the folk world, not least in negotiation with PRS, the Government and other bodies. I don't agree with everything they say and do, (and at times they themselves have problems getting the rest of the MU to play ball), and I do feel that a group with perhaps a stronger brief for traditional and amateur musicians is a good thing, but I don't think we should write off the MU. I'm not sure whether "The attitude to grass roots performers is pretty much the same as used to be the case.." also refers to the MU, or if you were by then talking about the music industry, but in any event the MU is well worth supporting even if you are only a part time musician. (You don't even need to be a player to join - in fact one of the senior folk reps does not play any instrument himself). But things like instrument and public liability insurance, contract advice and legal assistance, as well as injury cover make the fees more than equitable.

Leadfingers compared the MU fee with the Equity fee - but Actors don't carry round a few grand's worth of Cittern or Melodeon with them. Members insurance is SO much cheaper than the high street that the fee's covered by this saving alone - so even if you never play for money but do take your beloved instruments out to sessions or festivals or dancing events, that's reason enough to join.

But above all the MU tirelessly supports live music - in all its forms. OK they did initially roll over on the licensing issue, but they did go on kicking. Fair play to Hamish Birchall, of course, who resigned over the MU's failure to act, and should get the lions share of the credit, but in the end the MU helped to get a result which Equity could never have achieved.

As in a lot of areas of life we owe more to the unions, including the MU, than we sometimes realise, or it is currently fashionable to admit.

When I stopped being a pro first time round back in the 80s I let my membership lapse. I'm not making the same mistake again.

Tom


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 03:20 PM

Interesting points you raise Don & Tom.
The FPA is for Amateur as well as Professional musicians. There are a lot of us "Amateur" artists that offer services for almost expenses, or FOC and a fee of any sort to join say the MU would seem pointless.
Taxation,Accounts,PRS negotiations are pretty rare for an amateur although it is as well to know the procedures just in case something comes through the post.
The Insurance of Musical Instruments on the road however is of particular importance to us all and it is a point that I raised for discussion.I talked to a couple of Insurance Companies with regards to membership quotations, but could find no interest.
Al


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 03:36 PM

"a fee of any sort to join say the MU would seem pointless" -

Alan, how much is your box worth? How much would it cost to insure it to take outside of your house? The MU-based policy covers it even in the car (as long as it's out of sight) - and sometimes you do need to do that even if you're not playing for money - paying for fuel for example.

I haven't got the figures to hand, but it is cheaper to join the MU and insure through them than to buy a policy from someone else. That's economies of scale - and specialist knowledge - for you. An FPO is never going to achieve those numbers because they include all the instruments and equipment from classical, jazz, brass bands, rock bands... you name it.

So no-one who ever takes instruments out of the house should think it's not financially worthwhile to to join the MU. And if you have particularly nice instruments you never take out, but need to be named in your household policy, then again the MU is worth joining IIRC.

And you get all the other benefits of the union into the bargain.

Wolfie Bliss


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 03:47 PM

well many years ago[ABOUT1985] the MU,scored a massive own goal.
A friend of mine called Nick Pickett used to do support acts at the Marquee,The MU in their wisdom decided that support acts at the Marquee were not getting paid enough, and told the management that support acts should get paid more, the management said yes we agree, so we have decided we wont have support acts any more.
result the MU, Through their ill thought out confrontation deprived my friend of a well publicised gig that he was very happy to do, that is f###### stupid.
the MU is a very good organisation with good intentions,but like all unions needs to be well led., and needs to think carefully about strategies when dealing with employers


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 03:50 PM

I agree Tom and I thought I covered that in my last sentence, perhaps it was badly wrote.:)
I have my instruments added to my household police and are covered for use whilst I am out of the house.
I must stress to everyone once again (just in case)
I set up this Facebook page for all of you to use, it has few rules ,the main one is no posting of Utube videos as sadly there is no room to do them justice (unless it is part of your new CD promotion.
It is not my site it is yours
Al


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 03:51 PM

NICK PICKETT

Nick was born in London in 1949, but raised in the West Country. Living in a small village he got his first taste of music by listening to the regular broadcasts of Jazz and Blues from the French radio stations in the 1960's. He had always been a keen singer, but didn't take up the guitar and harmonica until he was 16 and began studying at art college in Somerset.

In 1968 he moved to college in Bristol, where he became a resident singer at the Troubadour Club. Deciding that music was more to his liking than art he quit college and moved to London in search of work. Late in 1969 he joined the John Dummer Band as lead singer and guitarist. He wrote and produced a number of recordings with the band, including their hit single "Nine By Nine", which reached the top of the sales charts in many European countries. By this time, however, he had decided to resume work as a soloist and returned to acoustic performances.

He has recorded as a soloist for Warners, as well as recording as a guest with many other artistes, including Fleetwood Mac, Chicken Shack, Daddy Longlegs, Mungo Jerry, and Andy Fernbach. In the late 1980's he returned to college to study design, and in 1993 he was awarded a Ph.D. for his work in devising music equipment for people with physical impairment. Nick performs mainly at acoustic clubs and festivals, where his steel-strung guitar and cutting harmonica help to deliver original songs with jazz and blues overtones.

©M&K2002


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: michaelr
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 04:04 PM

I was intrigued to read this:

With very few exceptions, radio music presenters are given playlists, from which they are not allowed to stray, containing all the latest manufactured groups and artists whom the recording companies want to promote and surprise, surprise, those playlists contain no folk music, nada, zip, zilch.

So if that is a fact, what does that say re: the oft-repeated lamentations here about various Unthanks, Rusbies and Lakepeople etc. "selling out"?


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: r.padgett
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 01:46 AM

I seem to have been confusing myself of late

This is the FPA (Folk Performers Accociation) which I would like to join

The UK Folk Club Network ~ has now decided on who to have in their "Steering Team" to no doubt bring the Folk Clubs in to line!

I appear to have been warned off posting with them, and I better shut up now! Good luck to 'em!

I am interested in collecting, learning and singing mainly traditional songs (anyone near Sth Yorks interested in singing harmonies??)or backing?

My recent 49 2CD recordings with words and notes is available (complete with typos!)named English Traditionalist songs

There does seem to be a move in English folk clubs away from The Tradition, this area in Scotland and Ireland (I have Cable TV) is thriving and we do seem to be at odds with them ~ I can't understand this and don't want a discussion on it either, just support for the English Traditional songs and music as a jumping off point to new songs in "the tradition"

I am NOT an out and out traditional song person as has been suggested in another place to the exclusion of others

I do think that agencies have their place, which is not in yer face!

I am annoyed at certain comments that have been made elswhere (sorry wrong place I know!) Do not ask!!

Ray


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 04:18 AM

It is very common that performers advertising themselves assume that
everybody knows what they do. Someone putting on say a medieval banquet, for example ,looking for performers would not have clue as who does what.So they go to a Folk Agency , even there unless you specify what you can do you will miss out on this work.Well known artists are known to everybody in the Folk World but very few will know them outside it.We all know that for Weddings and other special events , we can put on a fantastic evening that will be different from the DJ in the corner putting on his favourites and with no thought for the audience in front of him.
If you are advertising list the lot, just in the way Ray has just done we all now know what he is looking for and what he is trying to do.
Al


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 06:33 AM

""So if that is a fact, what does that say re: the oft-repeated lamentations here about various Unthanks, Rusbies and Lakepeople etc. "selling out"?""

A few half hour programs being aired on BBC3 or BBC4, and one or two artists capturing enough interest to be interviewed on breakfast TV, doesn't detract from my argument one bit Michael.

Take a trot through the most frequented radio channels and tell me where and how often you find any indication that an English Folk music and song tradition exists.

FFS, even the one program still dedicated to folk is largely taken over by Americana, and "World" music.

And incidentally, I don't subscribe to that nonsense about selling out. Any performer who has the chance to earn money from doing what he loves is entitled to go for it IMHO, or are we saying that anyone who enjoys working with figures should not be allowed to earn money as an accountant?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 09:53 AM

Tom: I haven't got the figures to hand, but it is cheaper to join the MU and insure through them than to buy a policy from someone else. That's economies of scale - and specialist knowledge - for you. An FPO is never going to achieve those numbers because they include all the instruments and equipment from classical, jazz, brass bands, rock bands... you name it.

My "Home and Contents" policy includes all the family's instruments. That amounts to a total of 8 guitars, an octave mandolin, flute, clarinet, 2 keyboards and a synthesiser. About £7,000 worth in all (some of the guitars are fairly cheap).

They're covered for being in the home, in the car (as long as car locked and out of sight), in use at venues, being at school (out of date now since youngest has just left school) or being at student accommodation. Specifically excluding them from the policy would lower the premium by about £70 per annum.

I know they pay out without fuss as my older daughter's flute was solen from her school locker about 4 years ago and they paid out without a murmer, enough for her to buy an equivalent 2nd hand replacement. Not sure what the MU membership fee is but to me tour H & C deal would be hard to beat.


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 07:41 PM

I too have my guitar and my six string banjo covered on my contents insurance, which is arranged by my housing association and paid with my rent.

It is a very low premium and I hardly notice it, and it takes into account the rarity of the guitar.

The only thing I don't have is cover abroad.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 04:29 AM

I also have my instruments insured on my household policy.They are also named so that certain instruments I take out of the house are covered for use at gigs ,sessions etc. Royal London Mutual Insurance.
As the policy covers all my possessions up to a figure of £1500 then it is worthwhile taking instruments off the named list to reduce your payments, if their value goes below this figure.
I approached Royal London to see if they would be interested in a membership Insurance scheme, but there was no interest. This does not mean I shall not try again.
Al


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: reggie miles
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 04:42 AM

I just finished liking the page.

I don't mean to be contrary to the needs of the page or your desires as the admin but I'm not certain where your unnatural fear of allowing YouTube videos to be posted on this site is coming from. In my experience facebook does a great job of minimizing the size of YouTube videos that display on their pages. When added, they are physically tiny in size and take up only the small amount of space, no more than the average photo uploaded. They only open to a larger state when clicked by and viewed an individual viewer but do not remain in that larger state. Once you refresh the page, or log out and log back in, you'll note that the videos have returned to their previous thumbnail size. I am only guessing here, that you are perhaps unaware of this fact.


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 05:43 AM

r.padgett

The UK Folk Club Network ~ has now decided on who to have in their "Steering Team" to no doubt bring the Folk Clubs in to line!

Just to set the record straight, The UK Folk Club Network has not set up a "Steering Team", it has set up a "Focus Group". On the Facebook group, I took issue with John Richards and others over a number of issues, in particular the need for "quality control" of floor singers and the intention to intervene in the management of individual clubs. On the strength of that, John suggested I join the Focus Group which I have done. From there, I will continue to argue my point of view that the UKFCN has considerable potential as long as it recognises its limitations.


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 05:55 AM

Thanks for your comments Reggie, most welcome.
Some artists are prolific Utube recorders (myself included)and as it is a rolling page of information ,updated either by me, or hopefully by the artists themselves, it is possible for some to so block up the page that it becomes an off shoot of You Tube.It seems better to me to provide a page that helps everyone, the artist,Folk Clubs, Dance Clubs and sing arounds, individual new CD promotions backed up by a video clip.
If I took the point you raised then NEW UTube Videos could be displayed, but on the consideration that they be deleted after say a weeks display.
If that is agreed by everyone as a good idea then that deletes one of the few rules we have.
We do have of course a Photo page where it is easy to display a link to web sites of artists.
I await your and other comments on this suggestion.
Thanks
Al


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 06:46 AM

Well done The Snail pleased to see you on there.
A bit concerned that the site is for Clubs - Booking Artists only
This hardly caters for the grass roots of folk , the sing arounds, the specialist dance clubs,the sessions etc these are where future artists will come from.Those people that turn up for a drink are persuaded to sing and start to come and perform on a regular basis. From those early beginnings these people go along to Folk Clubs to perform.
We shall cater for these areas that UKFCN miss out.
Al


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Leadfingers
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 07:44 AM

With regard to the comment about Agencies - There are Good and bad (AS in ALL things) and a LOT of agencies seem to suffer severely from Tunnel Vision !
The group of people I work with mostly are 'Music in Theme' , and do Costume Theme events - Medieval , Pirate , Victorian nautical , Victorian Agricultural and even "Irish" .
We find that an agency that has used us for a Medieval event , despite the information on our fliers and the webSite often will not even consider us for anything else - They dont seem to realise that a Folk Performer CAN do a wide variety of totally different songs perfectly competently .


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 07:51 AM

Alan Day

Hi Alan

A bit concerned that the site is for Clubs - Booking Artists only

So am I. It seems to create an artificial divide that folk club organisers don't see and lays the UKFCN open to the accusation that they are trying to mould folk clubs for the benefit of professional performers.

We shall cater for these areas that UKFCN miss out.

I'm hoping to persuade the UKFCN to broaden its remit. I think the Folk Performers Association and UKFCN could be complementary and overlapping organisations. After all, many people are both organisers and performers.


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 08:34 AM

One of the interesting things about selling is that some of your existing customers are not purchasing all that you sell, only because they did not know that was in your product range.Your posting Leadfingers just goes to demonstrate this point and you just have to keep banging on their door until they grasp what you are offering.
Thanks Snail I am pleased you agree with me, I shall just keep moving the site along until I think there is too much of an overlap and close it down.If however it becomes a popular and accepted alternative offering a different slant to UKFCN then we may expand it.
Al


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: r.padgett
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 09:24 AM

Hello the SNAIL and thanks for putting me right

Hope you can help the group with the Focusing of the Focus Group and that you as a group "steer" or focus the chosen ones to come to a Mission Statement and common aims and values, if that is what you are aiming to do?

There does seem to be a lot of different aims to bring together

I wish you all the best!

Ray


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 10:33 AM

Again, to set the record straight, there are no "chosen ones". John asked for volunteers and, as far as I know, nobody was rejected.


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: r.padgett
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 10:51 AM

Righto!

Ray


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: r.padgett
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 10:56 AM

Can we now focus on FPA business please ~ sorry for this unneeded drift

Ray

I really am getting annoyed now!!
Bloody hate pedantic people


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 12:27 PM

I have put Reggie's idea up as a suggestion,(re Utube recordings)
If we get a reasonable response ,we can see how it goes.
Al


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 10 Jun 11 - 04:38 AM

The rules have been changed to include NEW You tube Videos of members
(CLICK LIKE TO JOIN, NO FEES)Please include your Web Page link.
As it is a rolling page the videos will be deleted after a short while ,so do not be offended by this action.
Thanks Reggie.
Al


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 02:57 PM

There is a problem on our site where details of events have been posted ,I am receiving information of the posting and details,but they are not appearing on the page.I hope others are not experiencing difficulties of this kind.I have sent the details to Facebook and complained.I hope to get this matter rectified ASAP. I trust that you will continue to place your event adverts after the problem has been sorted out.
We now have 110 members ,thanks for your support. Just click on "Like" to join. (no charges for membership or adverts)
Al


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 01:27 PM

We now have 186 members and growing daily.Just click "Like" to join this Facebook page
It is a rolling page for members to advertise their gigs/events,New CDs,sing arounds and sessions etc and there is no charge.The postings are just deleted when out of date.
Al


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: GUEST,UK Folk Music - Alan Morley
Date: 28 Jun 12 - 05:03 AM

I found this thread by accident when I was check the position in Google Search for our sister website, and I have been reading all the comments with a lot of interest.

The problem with a Facebook page as Tom Bliss pointed out is that Tom and countless others either can't or are reluctant to use FB. The membership of Alan's page has grown to 294 since his January post, but how many of those who joined still visit to keep up to date!?

In November 2011 we launched UK Folk Music onto the web and we have been steadily growing / tweaking / deleting features as the months progress. In May 2012 we re-launched the ex-BBC Radio Derby programme 'Folkwaves' presented again by Mick Peat and Lester Simpson as a monthly folk show. We also have our very own programme FolkRise which is presented by me and usually features lesser known artists from across the UK.

The reason I have mentioned all this is to illustrate that we are serious in our attempts at supporting and promoting folk music and artists / performers from the UK. We don't sit around talking - we get things done....

FOLK MUSIC ARTISTS.
Our Folk Music Artists website seems to tick a lot of the boxes which have been suggested in the comments from people in this thread.

The website is intended to be a directory / portal for Folk Music Artists, and we do charge a small fee of £20 per year which allows subscribers to create their own page in the directory and include links / gigs / video / pictures etc. We charge a small subscription fee because like everyone else we have overheads and also we need to develop the website and turn it into an essential reference point for performers / clubs / festival / agents and public.
FOLK MUSIC ARTISTS

FOLK PERFORMERS ASSOCIATION
We also have the possibility of launching another website as we also own the domain name www.folkperformersassociation.co.uk which is presently re-directing traffic to Folk Music Artists.

We would welcome comments and perhaps some assistance in moving these projects forward. We have a strong commitment and belief that what we have is a great idea and that we are in a strong position to support and promote artists.

Alan Morley
Email me

UK FOLK MUSIC


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 28 Jun 12 - 06:15 AM

Glad this thread has come up again - I'd have sworn that I already "Liked" the Folk Performers Association Facebook page*, but it turns out that no, I hadn't, so I've just been and done it now. I immediately got a Notification from a lady inviting me to join the Folk Clubs UK page, which I will gladly do if someone will but tell me how! Clicked on the link, found the page, but don't see any "Join" option/link. If someone reading this can add me from their end, that will be fine, or else give me some Instructions For Boneheads on what to click. I'll be grateful for clarification, either here (if they think it would be useful to anyone else) or by a PM or private Facebook message (which anyone can send me, whether they're a Friend or not).

Very interesting and informative thread, this!

*
Folk Performers Association

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Folk-Performers-Association/109836502433683


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 28 Jun 12 - 08:07 AM

Hallo Bonnie,
I started The Folk Performers association page to give artist a free page for advertising on Facebook and discuss Folk matters of interest.This is not to be confused with the website owned by Alan Morley ,who as he explains, has the domain name.
Sometime ago I offered to step aside and close this page if Alan Morley's page was proffered, but adverts continue to be placed on there so I see no reason to close it and as no member who have clicked "LIKE" to join free, then I see no reason for anyone to be concerned.
Alan is advertising his new page also on the Facebook site without me deleting it, so in my opinion we are working together,but I have not had confirmation of this.
I look forward to more comments on this subject.
Al


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jun 12 - 08:34 AM

Sadly I had forgotten your existence and my membership, which you so warmly congratulated me on taking out.

I have a feeling I should be doing something. Shouldn't you have contacted me, when I forgot you.

I'm beginning to sound like the White Rabbit.


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Fidjit
Date: 28 Jun 12 - 09:57 AM

On board, but will it help me as a minor performer ??

Was an equity member when I worked at Butlins in the sixties. (cost £5 then) Let it go when I was abroad.

Shall follow what happens with interest.

Chas


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jun 12 - 10:09 AM

they don't get minor than me, Fidg old pal. Ask not what your FPA can do for you....


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Fidjit
Date: 28 Jun 12 - 10:24 AM

Thanks Big Al.

All sing now, "I am a Union man"

Chas


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Subject: RE: Folk Performers Association
From: Alan Day
Date: 28 Jun 12 - 11:58 AM

You can for free

Advertise yourself and what you do.Gigs, tours, new videos,U tube recordings,publications.
Promote your Folk Club ,events,festivals etc.
It is your page , not mine,I just delete out of date information.
I have recently moved and sadly I have not had time to do random Folk advertising but the panic jobs are nearing an end.

To get yourself listed as a performer then I suggest you join Alan Morley site but I believe that there is now a fee to join.

Al


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