A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 11:34 PM

Refresh.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 06:16 PM

Matt, Lord Executor's parents were originally from Venezuela, he was born in Trinidad. So he was ethnically Venezuelan. And not to say anything against him, but Richard Bridge *seems* to believe that if you are an outsider to a culture (which includes ethnicity) you can't sing their songs authentically/traditionally/with respect to the culture. I could be reading some of his comments on other posts, on similar threads wrong, reading something that isn't there, but that is what I read it as. Maybe he thinks of it in terms of the superficial, like (say) what would happen if someone from a rich Western country went to Jamaica for four months, studied with a few mento artists, and claimed to be a totally authentic mento performer. That would be total nonsense. I agree with him on that if *that's* what he's saying. If I've read his posts wrongly, I apologise.

But to me, whether someone sounds authentic as a performer in another tradition has almost nothing to do with their background. True, it will take them longer to learn it than people who were born/raised around that tradition, but it can be done by immersing yourself into the culture and taking care to learn from and respect the culture so that you will gain acceptance. And that *is* what I'm going to do.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 12:00 PM

Here's a link to a YouTube video of Jero that I reposted to my website of YouTube video gems, mostly from African American and other Black cultures around the world

http://www.jambalayah.com/node/1097

Jero - Uwasano Onna쳌@‰\‚Ì쳌— (Japan)

-snip-

That video is reposted with selected viewer comments from its video's viewer comment thread.

Here's one of those comments:

"Not only has he made history for being a black singer in Japan, but he is amazing of infusing new life & interest in enka. I am always searching to learn more about Japan & combined with Jero's amazing voice I am learning a lot from him! I also like how humble & honest he appears while doing all of these things. I wish him all the best for him & I hope he will have a long career.
-ILoveTeaDogs ; 2009

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 11:47 AM

Enka music is usually associated with Japanese music from the 1940s.

Here's an excerpt from the Wikipedia page about Enka music:

Enka (Ñݸè?) is a popular Japanese music genre considered to resemble traditional Japanese music stylistically. Modern enka, however, is a relatively recent musical form which arose in the context of such postwar expressions of modern Japanese nonmaterial nationalism as nihonjinron, while adopting a more traditional musical style in its vocalism than ry¨±k¨­ka music, popular during the prewar years.[1]

Modern enka, as developed in the postwar era, is a form of sentimental ballad music"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enka

-snip-

Here are selected comments from an interview about the African American (with Japanese ancestry) Enka singer Jero:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0HK28muI-o&feature=related


"I like Jero. The record company at first wanted him to bring back Enka. Many people thought of him as a gimmick. But he's made a name for himself and he's got talent. He's kind of got a New Age Enka thing going on. I wish him luck.

Also, not to beat a dead horse, but Crystal Kay, Thelma Aoyama(?) and such are singing mainstream pop & RNB. Since Enka is very traditional and stylized Jero has been the first to succeed there. I'm pretty sure Crystal would have a hard time pulling it off.
-sumoni; 2011

-snip-

Note: Information about Crystal [Crystal Kay] and Thelma Aoyama is found below.

-snip-

"I love Jero very much and what he represents - if you work hard enough, you will succeed wherever you are and whoever you are. Jero is 1/4 Japanese and has been exposed to the Japanese language from a very young age because his grandmother and his mother spoke in Japanese at home. He was a gifted child and therefore has exceptional language abilities."
-jafaru; 2010

-snip-

"Enka is basically overtly emotional in its vocalization style.  Its also very story oriented with very picturesque lyrics, culturally specific, and full of pathos. In order to "get" enka, one has to have a very high command of the Japanese language with all its subtle nuances. Its a level that many Japanese frankly don't think foriegners can reach. Jero has broken that barrier and proven that yes, a gaijin (foriegner) can grasp core Japanese feelings."
-lessdone; 2010

-snip-

"Hi. I am a Japanese fan who likes Jero. My 2-year-old daughter LOVES Jero!

Jero, in my opinion, opened up the door to new style Enka to younger generation. However, Jero's songs are not designed as Hip-Hop/R&B like because the composer of Umiyuki did not want him to fade out after this one song. This might be why he is so focused to sing traditional Enka."
-JannatSiddique; 2010

-snip-

"Jero incorporated the Hip-hop in his style because that's who he is and how he dresses. It was a risk, but his style appealed to the younger generation and helped broaden the Enka fanbase. Alot of younger people in Japan are listening to Enka now because of Jero. I mean, we know what the haters would say if he came out in a Kimono. "sellout". So I'm glad he kept it real with his style."
-xBlasian86x; 2009

-snip-

"Kystal Kay sang R&B, a form of music that didn't originate in Japan. Not suprising to see a brotha or sista singing R&B. (Note: I'm black/japanese). But Jero sings a form of music that is Japan's own which is a genre that hasn't been adopted by any other culture like say "rock". It's mainly only listened to by Japanese. So I wouldn't say Krystal Kay opened the door for Jero. I'd say they came in two different entrances. Both great artists.
-xBlasian86x; 2009

-snip-

"Very interesting conversations. What made you think you wanted to talk about him? Too bad you can't pronounce "Umiyuki" right! Almost! I believe Jero is the biggest black singer in Japan. Crystal Kay is famous, but she didn't surrprise people when she dubuted. Jero completely did blow us out! If you see him, you expect him to sing hip hop or R&B, but nobody expected him to start singing enka. I was totally shocked! And he's good."
-samjones1976; 2009

-snip-

Crystal Kay is an African American/Korean who sings in Japanese.
According to her Wikipedia page, the genres that Cyrstal Kay writes and sings are Pop, R&B, rock, urban, dance.

Here's an excerpt from that Wikipedia page:

"Crystal Kay Williams (born February 26, 1986), known by her stage name Crystal Kay, is a singer and songwriter from Yokohama, Kanagawa, Japan. She debuted aged 13 and is considered an original pioneer for interracial artists in Japan...

Kay is currently signed to Epic Records, a sub-label of Sony Music Japan.[5]

As of July 2009, Kay has released ten albums. Her seventh studio album, All Yours (2007) became Kay's first number-one release in her career when it debuted on top of the Oricon chart in June 2007.[6] Kay has sold over two million records in Japan as of 2009."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_Kay


**

Thelma Aoyama (Çàɽ ¥Æ¥ë¥Þ Aoyama Teruma?), born October 27, 1987, is a Japanese pop and R&B singer. She is part Afro-Trinidadian and Japanese."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thelma_Aoyama

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 11:13 AM

Some persons here may be interested in the Pittsburgh, Pennslyvania African American enka singer who is a hit in Japan.

"Jerome Charles White, Jr.[1] (born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, on September 4, 1981), better known by his stage name Jero (ƒWƒFƒ쳌?), is an enka singer[2] of African-American and Japanese descent. He is the first black enka singer in Japanese music history."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jero

Here are links to part 1 & part 2 of a 3 part CNN Asia interview (2008) with Jero. Unfortunately, part 3 is no longer available on YouTube. This is a shame because part 2 ends with the Japanese interviewer asking Jero did he feel he was a gimmick).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfeZ7kBY03s

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nED_sphdi0&feature=related

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 10:19 AM

I'm not sure there are any posters here who do in fact "believe that certain forms of music (calypso)can be authentically performed only by people from those cultures".

I'm not. I think authenticity is a bit of a blind alley in music, because music is all about what something "sounds like". So, if something "sounds authentic", it IS authentic.

This might sound like I'm contradicting things I said earlier. I'm not. Take Frank Fairfield, for example. He is a 25 year old guy from Los Angeles, who plays some of the most authentic-sound old-time American fiddle music I've ever heard. If you didn't know better, you'd assume you were listening to an Alan Lomax recording of a septuagenerian in the 1950s.

Or rather, you would do, if his voice didn't sound weirdly like Grandpa Simpson. In his case, it's not so much his accent that's the problem (it sounds authentically Appalachian), it's the fact that he chooses to sing like someone 50 years older than he is.

Lord Executor's a good example though. I haven't listened to much calypso, but I've got a few compilations. Where was he from then?

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: Alan Day
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 08:08 AM

I remember only too well a certain Folk Festival organiser saying to me "Why should I book "Rosbif" to play French music when I can get the real thing"
Makes you wonder as well about only Classical Musicians not capable of playing Classical Music because they do not come from the composers country.
Al

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 07:16 AM

Hope I don't sound argumentative, but just wondering: could those posters here who believe that certain forms of music (calypso)can be authentically performed only by people from those cultures clarify what they think of some performers such as Philip Garcia, Lord Executor (a specific example and one only known to calypso enthusiasts and calypsonians), performers who perform in a style not of their own culture but who were and are highly respected in that tradition by performers of the dominant ethnic group in that genre? Do they believe that those performers are less credible due to their ethnic origins, even if they are respected and admired as an authentic performer within their tradition by those qualified to judge? (meaning other performers in that tradition?)

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 08:58 PM

I dunno, it could be The Road to Skegness.......that fits quite well.

As i was a-riding the bus out of Wainfleet
This woman on, got wear-ing a short dress
A flash of her knickers would get me excited
So i watched like a hawk, all the road to Skegness.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 06:22 PM

This topic of accents seems to be something no-one can really agree on. After reading everyone's responses though, I think I'm somewhere in the middle. I'd use (a trace of) an accent for some songs and none for some other songs (the ones in standard English, such as "Jean and Dinah").

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 05:21 PM

Oh I hope someone does not change the words to the Road to Dundee. That is a perfect song. It is about Dundee. Not about Minneapolis, or Warsaw or Capetown or Fairbanks. Dundee. People have the right to change the words to fit their locale but I would personally strongly rather they didn't and would probablhy not attend their concerts or buy their CDs, which is not a huge threat because I am not a great consumer. if they want to sing it in a Scottish accent, I would rather they sang it in their own accent, not translating the words, just doing an approximation as well as they could..but I wouldn't care that much one way or the other. But it would drive me up the wall to have to sit through several localized, folk-processed on purpose songs. Especially if they changed her to him and him to her and no one knows the standard words and oh yes there are standard words and I know them. mg

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 01:24 PM

As you say, Matt: & it isn't an either/or choice that you are offering either. Some singers like Roy Bailey don't assume accents other than their own whatever the context; others, like the late great Sandy Paton I mentioned a few posts back, do. It's a matter of personal taste, of confidence ... If you assert that this shows Roy to be a better or more sincere or less inward-wince-inducing {or whatever else-er} singer than Sandy was - well, I don't think you will find many to agree with you.

Some like to do it one way, some another. Live with it.

~M~

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 06:38 AM

And anyway, it's absurd to suggest it's an either/or choice: the idea that if you're singing a song that mentions 'Dublin' you have to either sing it in an Irish accent or change it to 'London' is manifestly stupid, and I'm not suggesting that for a second.

As I type this, I'm listening to Roy Bailey singing 'The Road To Dundee'. It's a Scottish song, sung from the perspective of a young man (who may be poor) who accompanies a young lady (who may be aristocratic) along the road to Dundee.

Thankfully, Roy Bailey does not feel the need to venture a Scots accent to sing it and his art is all the stronger for it.

Words such as 'lassie' or geographical references to "the Howe of Strathmartin" sound entirely natural sung in his English accent. I think they would sound pantomime-like and false if he assayed a Scots accent, irrespective of how 'well' he could do it.

It's on his album 'Below The Radar', by the way, which is very good.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 06:25 AM

"To each her own. I would rather listen to fake Scottish accents than listen to songs where the locales have been changed..Way down upon the Volga River? Banks and braes of old Lake Michigan? it's a long way to Sacramento? Nah...mg"

If you listen to folk music, you ALREADY listen to hundreds of songs in which the locales have been changed. The only difference is, you never knew the originals, because they have been altered and tweaked thousands of times over the centuries in their migrations from places like Ireland, England, Scotland, Germany, Italy and from Jewish traditions. And then again as they traversed the USA.

Folk process.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 05:50 AM

Lance pERCIVAL.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: Alan Day
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 05:43 AM

I remember from way back a guy used to do a calypso on "That was the week that was" or was it the Frost Programme every day. English comedian or actor from memory. Just sat there with a guitar and knocked them out.
Al

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 05:13 AM

Way down on the Volga River!

Fess up! You've had a go at writing that Mike. Its too funny to just walk away from.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 01:04 AM

I remember few people showing any signs of wincing when Sandy Paton sang.

~M~

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 10:09 PM

To each her own. I would rather listen to fake Scottish accents than listen to songs where the locales have been changed..Way down upon the Volga River? Banks and braes of old Lake Michigan? it's a long way to Sacramento? Nah...mg

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 08:44 PM

I went the accent route. i regard myself as working within the tradtion, but I think unimaginative people have turned 'tradition' into a dirty word. Dull conformity - when actually tradition is a repository of wonderful techniques and funny hats, that we are all entitled to try on.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 01:14 PM

I'm not 'denying' anybody anything. People can sing however they like. People do sing however they like. People will continue to sing however they like. I'm just saying that, if you choose to sing songs in English in a different accent to your own, there will be people in the audience inwardly wincing.

Thankfully, out of all the folk music I've ever heard, I can only think of two or three singers who ever went the accent route. Almost all traditional music ever has been sung by singers who stuck to their own voice, irrespective of whether the songs were from.

As for Ewan MacColl's Scots accent - well if it sounds authentic to you, then it clearly did its job. But I'm by no means the only person who thought it sounded caricatured:
http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=95082

How do you rate MacColl's Irish accent on his "Whiskey In the Jar" album? It's hard to tell whether he's employing one or not, actually, it comes and goes. He oirishes up the words "darlin'" and "wah-ter", but that's about it. And have you ever heard MacColl's American accent? It is insane. Mercifully, he only ever tried it the once.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: olddude
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 12:47 PM

As Spaw says, the best cowboy singer he has ever heard is Seamus Kennedy. Seamus is certainly not an American Cowboy .. I agree with him completely

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 11:27 AM

We lived for thirty years a couple of miles from Eastwood - the birthplace of DH Lawrence. The accents in that area are every localised. My wife was from Heanor, Derbyshire - about four miles away and another set of spoken inflexions in the speaking voice.

We always used to laugh at RADA all purpose northern accents trying to negotiate the subleties of Lawrence's dialogue - often completely misunderstanding the nuances.

And of course Derbyshire folksong is a set of linguistic beartraps for the unwary. And who knows in ten years, maybe no one will pick up the nuances - certainly not in a hundred years.

Still, the actors got Oscars and some of the folksingers made livings and got great reviews for their albums - and thousands of people got enjoyment from those performances. So what the hell does any of it matter?

Most of the so called purists couldn't tell talk from mutter anyway.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 10:06 AM

---I'm not arguing against empathy, or passion, or conveying what's in the song.---
,,,
If, as it seems to me, you are denying singers performing a song the same privileges you would afford an actor performing a play, then surely that is precisely what you are doing? A singer performing adopts the persona of the person he is singing AS; just as does an actor playing a part. The fact that the singers you instance above didn't adopt accents where appropriate rather suggests to me that they couldn't rather than that they wouldn't. Two of the best folksingers, Theo Bikel & Ewan, were also professional actors. AND masters of accent ~~ listen to Bikel's 'One Sunday Morning', e.g. And denigrations of Ewan's Scots is rubbish: he had it direct from his parents & it was the lingua franca of his childhood home. & it's all v well to talk patronisingly of Donald's Trousers, but it is, within its own genre, actually a very good song very well performed; not a genre which will appeal to all on this forum, but that is no reason for you to be so superior & toffee-nosed about it: & I hope you are not going to tell us that Andy Stewart wasn't really a Scot and couldn't do the accent.

~M~

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 08:12 AM

"to follow your logic, you would appear to object to anyone who didn't shoot as disqualified from singing any such thing"

No, I don't think that follows at all. I'm not arguing against empathy, or passion, or conveying what's in the song.

I'm just saying I'd feel stupid singing a song in an accent not my own. None of my favourite folk singers ever did that: Paddy Tunney, Harry Cox, Walter Pardon, Horton Barker, Frank Proffitt ,to name a few.

I think Ewan MacColl is a bad example, anyway, as somebody else noted above. Despite the fact that both his parents were Scottish his Scots accent was really OTT. You listen to Archie Fisher or Norman Kennedy and then to Ewan MacColl: by comparison he's very 'Dornall wheres ye trooosers'. He sounds theatrical. He sounds a bit hammy. I don't really like 'actorly' singers.

He does a terrible American accent on a song on one of his early albums, in which he sounds like ET doing a Woody Guthrie impression while holding his nose.

that doesn't stop me enjoying and listening to Ewan MacColl, by the way. I have a love/hate relationship with the old stick-in-the-mud (partly because I have an affection for old stick-in-the-muds). The 'Broadside Ballads' are terrific albums, and I like plenty of other bits and pieces. But none of his songs have ever made me cry, and that's because he can never quite shake off the declamatory aspect of his performance. Hey, it clearly does things for some people though. I'd have loved to have seen him live.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 08:00 AM

Well I have the "Mango Time" book. And no, Edric Connor uses his own accent (generally), as do I (Australian Chinese, with relatives in Southeast Asia- Malaysia and Singapore) while singing those songs. My voice still sounds generally Australian underneath, with Jamaican inflections.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 07:47 AM

"would you sing a song in dialect?"

Um, no, it just wouldn't feel right to me. Probably because you can't sing a dialect song without doing the accent. It would be like cutting off my nose to spite my face: I like folk for its adaptability, for its spin.

I don't mean to sound prescriptive: it's not a moral thing, it's an aesthetic thing.

Well, in the case of me, with regard to Caribbean songs, it would actually be slightly a moral thing: I'm a middle-class white English person, who is generationally close to things like the Black & White Minstrel show. My great-grandparents were contributing to and perpetuating the hardships bemoaned in a lot of those songs. Irrespective of what anybody else thought, I'd feel I was doing something a bit crass.

That's the key though, I think, it's simply what you yourself feel comfortable doing. I sing a couple of songs from that part of the world. "Lionheart" (which is in the 'Mango Time' book), "Rum & Coca Cola" and "Iron Bar".

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 07:32 AM

And also, I think it is possible to sing a song in dialect using your own accent. Your "accent" is different from dialect. Edric Connor, the actor and singer who sang the Jamaican folk song "Day-O/Day Dah Light" (better known in the Harry Belafonte/Irving Burgie version, which standardises the text) and other Jamaican folk songs on an album (LP originally, now CD), called "Songs from Jamaica" in Jamaican dialect, yet because of his accent, he sounds quite different to a Jamaican singing these songs.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 07:32 AM

Songs may not be plays, Matt; but, esp those narrated in the first person, they may well be ·dramatic monologues·: in any event, their delivery is a performance: if you sing [e.g.] "Come all ye young fellow that follow a gun", that doesn't turn you into a man going out shooting; that is the persona you have adopted for the purposes of the narration; to follow your logic, you would appear to object to anyone who didn't shoot as disqualified from singing any such thing. If ∴ any locale or nationality is implied or stated in such narrative, then it is surely reasonable, if one is adept enough at such impersonations to make it reasonably convincing, to adopt an appropriate diction or accent. I can't see that Ewan MacColl singing "The Battle of Harlaw"["As I cam in frae Dunedeer and doon by Netherha'" in the accent of his ancestry rather than in his own native Salford was in any significant particular different from Kate Winslet adopting a well studied and practised US accent to perform the part of Mildred Pierce.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 07:23 AM

"What about some Gullah traditional songs, or songs in a completely different language, where if you sing a translated version into English or whatever your main spoken language is, it loses something?"

I think songs in a totally different language are less problematic. Because, er, it's a totally different language. So you sing them with the best accent you can muster.

But I can't think of any folk singers that deliberately chose to sing all/the majority of their repertoire in a foreign language. For the simple reason that it's a perverse amount of effort for not a lot of returns.

As far as translation goes, sure you do lose some nuances and of course the actual sound of the words changes, but I think of it as just being two different entities. Not necessarily worse. Just different. The meaning will inevitably change, but there's a reason why a particular person decides to translate a particular song (or poem or novel or whatever): usually it's because they feel some sympathy with the spirit of the original. A good translation sacrifices detail but maintains spirit.

I'm a big fan of Boris Vian, the late French surrealist, satirical singer and jazz trumpeter. Whenever I listen to his songs, I'm struck by how good the lyrics are and often think I might like to sing them. (I sing along in the privacy of my flat when I'm on my own.) I did French A-level, so I could probably make a reasonable fist of singing them in French. But ultimately, I reckon I'd be better off translating them and singing them in English. It'd feel more legitimate. His song 'Valse Jaune' (Yellow Waltz) is a prime candidate. Not that I'll ever get round to it.
(A Britfolk tribute to Boris Vian, anyone?)

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 07:17 AM

Matt, would you sing a song in dialect?

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 07:09 AM

"But- what about dialect, for instance, in songs such as "Dallas Gawn A Cuba" (a Jamaican song)? What's your opinion on that? What about some Scottish (possibly Irish as well?) songs with dialect in them, where the language is an important part of the song?"

Well, what a lot of British and American singers have always done is change it to make it their own. Changing the localities, changing the words. I sing the Scottish song "Lauchie Wilson", changing the titular subject of the song from "Lauchie Wilson" to "Matthew Milton" (it was the happy coincidence of having a similar-sounding name with the right syllables that first attracted me to the song). I change the line in it that mentions "the deepest part of the Clyde" (a river) to "the deepest part of the Thames". In fact, that's what I call the song when I introduce it.

This might sound like doing violence to a song, but it's just a song, it's not a person. That's the folk process for you. It's no different to what happened to hundreds of songs when they went from Britain to the US and turned into old-time American classics. It's no different to various appropriations of the 'Black Velvet Band'.

But it's still a case-by-case basis. I sing an Irish song called 'Sheila nee Iyer'. That has a Gaelic word in it, in the line "Be off to your speirbhean", said Sheila Nee Iyer". Most of the time I replace "speirbhean" with "sweetheart", but sometimes I sing "speirbhean". I looked up how to pronounce it and pronounce it accordingly. I don't exaggerate it or hype up the accent, any more than I would, say, pronounce the word "spaghetti" with an Italian accent. For me, that's the most comfortable policy. Note how many times I've used "For me.." in the above posts! Prescriptive? Moi?

Then again, sometimes I replace the whole line with "you're a long way from the library, said Sheela Nee Iyer", which usually gets a laugh, and fits the song (Google the lyrics, they're great).

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 06:53 AM

As a matter of fact, I may have given the wrong impression. I find it easy to sing in dialect but not to sustain an accent for a long time (any more than the occasional pronunciation of a word) when singing.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 06:41 AM

Well, Matt, after I finish my Year 12 I *am* planning to study ethnomusicology in university (and I hope, calypso in Trinidad as part of that). I'm very interested in the folk music of other cultures. But- what about dialect, for instance, in songs such as "Dallas Gawn A Cuba" (a Jamaican song)? What's your opinion on that? What about some Scottish (possibly Irish as well?) songs with dialect in them, where the language is an important part of the song? What about some Gullah traditional songs, or songs in a completely different language, where if you sing a translated version into English or whatever your main spoken language is, it loses something?

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 06:21 AM

"If actors who can manage the accent can get contracts from exigent managements who wish to make a profit on their products by convincing and impressing their audiences, why should not singers who happen to be talented in accents do the same? What should make you feel 'weird' if you could pull it off? Should Ms Paltrow and Ms Winslet feel 'weird' IYO? Aren't you being a bit prescriptive?"

No, I don't see music and acting as remotely alike, other than the obvious (standing up and doing something artistic in public). Acting is mimesis (99% of the time). Singing isn't. I consider singing in a different accent as weird as I would do speaking in a different accent in introducing those songs. In fact, if the goal is mimesis, and you consider singing and acting to be so alike, shouldn't you really be spending the entire gig speaking in that accent, and perhaps even dressing in clothes that enhance that illusion? I'm not even joking here.

For me, it comes down to whether you see singing as 'entertainment' (for want of a better word) or 'craft/art'. I say 'for want of a better word', because of course art and entertainment can be both.

But that's why I mentioned cabaret in a previous post: for me, singing an Irish song in an Irish accent when you're not Irish is moving into acting/comedy (as in a comedian singing songs in a specific persona, like Rich Hall does). As opposed to singing a song like a perceptive, mature adult getting to grips with the material.

Irish and Scottish singers have never bothered to sing English songs in English accents. They just made them their own. English (or American) accented singers could learn a lot from that.

When you move to a different place, as Morwen suggests, and your accent changes, well, there's not really anything to discuss there. That's just a situation changing. Not a whole lot unlike the way your voice changes when you got older. However, I'll note that Morwen does seem rather keen to accelerate her accent-change as speedily as possible...

Ulitmately, none of this is prescriptive though: people are always going to do what they want to do. We're only talking about singing songs here. But I do think a singer ought to be aware of what *some* members of the audience will be thinking.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 11:37 AM

Just to add my two cents, If traditional music was only played by people from those cultural traditions, music would not propigate. (I don't know if I'm making myself clear here) Short answer, if you like Calypso I see no reason why you shouldn't play it. Regards, Neil (AKA Irish Sergeant)

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 09:48 AM

Refresh.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 11:55 PM

Matt ~~ What do you think of Gwyneth Paltrow (US) playing Jane Austen's Emma in film a few years ago, and Kate Winslet (British) currently playing James M Cain's Mildred Pierce on tv, both to much acclaim? Or, for that matter, British Vivien Leigh in Gone With The Wind and Streetcar Named Desire (in London & in film), & British Jessica Tandy [on Broadway] in that same T Williams play?

I once played the part of an American for a drama group; some of our members brought along some American guests, who, they told me later, said after the performance, "Weren't you lucky to get a real American to play that part?" (Sorry if this sounds vain, but it happens to be true & I think it happens to be relevant ~~ &, yes, I do sing Scots & Irish songs in appropriate accents ~~ try some on my Youtube site; and my old Glaswegian friends like it; & I don't feel 'weird'. But in other, non-specifically national songs, I try just to sound like me, &, as a much-valued review once said, avoid 'the folk voice'.)

If actors who can manage the accent can get contracts from exigent managements who wish to make a profit on their products by convincing and impressing their audiences, why should not singers who happen to be talented in accents do the same? What should make you feel 'weird' if you could pull it off? Should Ms Paltrow and Ms Winslet feel 'weird' IYO? Aren't you being a bit prescriptive?

~Michael~

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 11:04 PM

Matt, why would you consider it weird? I get why you might think it is weird if the person adopting the accent spent only a short time in the area, but what if the person was so immersed in the culture and spent such a long time in another country or region that their accent changed?

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 10:41 PM

BTW, in response to Richard Bridge's 20 April 11 post, Lord Executor (Phillip Garcia), one of the greatest calypsonians in Trinidad who was famous for his English-language singing (and began his career in 1893, dying in 1950), was Venezuelan in ancestry.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 09:45 PM

200

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 07:26 PM

Singing songs in a cabaret or somewhere similar is not exactly what I had in mind. I'm thinking of going to Trinidad (or Costa Rica) to learn calypso from people like The Mighty Sparrow and get a chance to perform in a tent.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 07:59 AM

also, I'm not really sure how much traditional calypso still exists in the West Indies (outside of the tourist/heritage/hotel circuit). Soca is huge of course, but that has about as much in common with old-school calypso (Mighty Sparrow et al) as present-day dancehall has to traditional reggae. It's digital, bass-heavy party music, not dissimilar to reggaeton.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 07:32 AM

" I have a knack for picking up accents in a short time. I have a friend from the Southern US, who came to my school in Year 9 (not that long ago- 2008) and after a while, I would find myself talking in a similar way to her. So I expect if i went to Trinidad, I may find myself being asked what part of the country I am from after a long period there"

see this is where I think you might come unstuck. do you intend to sing calypso in a Trinidadian accent? I seriously advise against this.

If I sing an Irish song, I don't put on an Irish accent. If I sing a Scottish song, I don't put on a Scots accent. Irrespective of how "well" I might be able to do it. It's just naff. I wouldn't consider it a badge of pride if a listener listened to it and assumed I was Irish or Scottish. I'd consider it a waste of time, and a bit weird.

Are you going to sing all your "the"s as "de"s? Like Diana Coupland, the white English actress who dubbed Ursula Andress singing "Under de mango tree" in Dr No?

Listen to John faulkner's "turtle calypso" on the otherwise brilliant Bagpuss album. OK, it's a children's song, but it's painfully dated. You can bet the people that do the voices for 'Rastamouse' aren't white RADA actors.

When black Londoners first started rapping in the 1980s, most of them put on American accents. They sounded rubbish. London Posse took a lot of flak for rapping in their East End cockney accents. All the people into hip-hop laughed at them, thinking they sounded ridiculous. Ten years later, time has totally proved London Posse were right all along, as now rappers all rap in their own accents, whether they're from Cardiff or Peckham. Nobody raps in someone else's accent.

Sing your calypso songs in your own accent, or you'll always be a cabaret act.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 12:00 AM

Chop-Tensils "On Cultural Appropriation" .

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 11:58 PM

This is the blog post I mentioned in my 21 April 11 post.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: Big Ballad Singer
Date: 25 Jun 11 - 04:35 PM

Just want to echo what some others have said here.

OWN what you sing. If it moves you, sing it.

A friend of mine used to get requests for "Blood and Fire", a song from the Indigo Girls, all the time. He is neither Indigo nor a girl, and admits himself to not be the best singer in the world, but he loves the song and sings it powerfully.

Do what you love... the great achievers in life, no matter what their skill or trade, did (and do) what they love, and it shows through.

Best of luck to you!

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: Musket
Date: 25 Jun 11 - 09:22 AM

Just had a scan down a few posts since my last one and I reckon this is a thread with no definitive consensus. In fact when I see somebody stating that if you disagree with them you must be a troll, (still haven't worked out what that means...) I get very bored very quickly.

However, it is an interesting thread title and I have been thinking about it, hence this observation.

We may be discussing "other" musical traditions, but we are still being very parochial. I am me, and "me" has a few guitars (+ banjos etc but I digress.) When I was a teenager, I would be playing in a punk band in pubs and clubs Saturday and Sunday night, then playing "folk" in a folk club on a Sunday, Monday etc. It is still me, it is still my songs about my experiences. In the punk band, we did rock up a few jigs & reels and I have always slowed down a few rock classics when doing a folk turn.

I play in a local folk club regularly alongside a banjo player from South Yorkshire who comes originally from Wales and plays American banjo and fiddle songs, usually with Chicken in the title. Is anybody here seriously saying Banjo Ray has no place in the folk scene? I might be expendable but talent such as his is to be celebrated...

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 25 Jun 11 - 08:37 AM

Thanks, Desi C, for sharing that (late, but still appreciated) opinion! Could someone get rid of prchecker's post, please?

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 25 Jun 11 - 08:18 AM

I don't think you should have any such qualms. As An Irish trad singer playing in the UK my music has long now been acceoted as a part of the Folk scene, and the British Folk scene in particular has evolved from being somewhat insular to widely accepting and welcoming all kinds of Ethnic cultural music. So the more the merrier I say