A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 07:14 PM

Is Guest lively being sarcastic? Post a *comment* on a blog.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other t
From: GUEST,Paul Slade
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 07:13 PM

For God's sake, just play the music you love and let the rest take care of itself. It's only when different traditions come together that anything new is born anyway, so who knows what amazing Chinese/Australian/calypso hybrid you might accidently invent?

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other t
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 07:10 PM

All right, I have started to post on a blog.

LAWLZ

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 06:56 PM

All right, I have started to post on a blog.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 06:15 PM

And all your other assumptions about me, Azizi, are true. I didn't know much about Chinese calypsonians and I use the internet a lot.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 06:11 PM

If you do, I'll go post there.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 06:11 PM

I don't know of any messageboards about calypso either. Can someone provide me with an example?

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 06:08 PM

You are wrong, Azizi. I would talk to a calypsonian if I knew one. Tell me why you have doubts. I don't have a blog and have no intention of starting one.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 05:27 PM

Does this mean you have to be a middle class baby boomer to perform prog rock?
As a musical voluptary and aural sensualist I'm of the sing what the hell you please school, just treat the stuff with respect. I recall a college tutor who was raised in Kingston, Jamaica who spoke with the broadest West Indian accent imaginable. Only in the UK did people think she was taking the micky because she was white.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 04:37 PM

"However, it's possible that MorwenEdhelwen1 is actually a 17 year old Chinese girl from Australia who wants to be a Calypsonian. ... I have my doubts"

It seems to me that Morwen is doing a pretty fine job of faking being a seventeen year old enthusiast for Calypso in order to blog about the thoughts of middle-aged folk enthusiasts.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 01:50 PM

'I'm starting to think you're a troll, too.'

Lets just leave it that you're starting to think....don't overdo it.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other t
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 11:09 AM

anonymous GUEST (who sounds like a troll),

anyone who puts limits on her dreams. Oh, boo hoo, limits on her dreams! Why don't you strum me a song about it? Well, this is why she made the query -- to get the sense if there are situations out there where one would be limited. And there are, of which one needs to be aware. She didn't ask it so that people could boost her confidence.

"Lighten up"? Don't be silly. The whole reason I mentioned world music classes was humor and irony. A few posts up I had said that "world music" means nothing (in other words, it's a b.s. category, but we sometimes have to deal with it). Perhaps you haven't learned to read smiley faces, the universal Internet language of lightness broadcasted to warn sensitive people. Lightness is one thing -- in discussion-- but the issue is serious. People have had their livelihood and traditions messed up by assuming outsiders who decide they don't need permission to take on the music developed by others and use it for their own promotion.

She should not, however, be required to seek anyone's permission to pursue her passion.
Why not? Why make this blanket statement? Can you speak for everyone?
Why is it that in India you literally ask for "permission" ("Do I have permission?") from your teacher and audience before you play? If you totally disregarded all of these gestures of respect, you wouldn't be part of that world of music making at all. And then where would you be? If your dream is to strum a sitar in front of hippies n England, well then you've reached it. Use your spending power to buy an instrument, teach yourself through recordings, and screw those damn Indian musicians who are limiting your passion!

But "permission" doesn't accurately characterize the relationship you want. Your "permission" sounds like a legal right. You don't need permission to be a jerk to someone. But that doesn't mean you should do it.

Alan Whittle,

august personage within a a traditional artform unblemished by sordid commerciality, would you choose the name Eek a Mouse
This makes no sense. Who said anything about an "august personage"? A "traditional artform"? Who said commerciality blemishes? And if you are absolutely clueless about reggae culture (which can be gathered from your earlier posts), what makes you think you could judge the appropriateness of an artist's name?

Your Paul Simon analogy is disgusting, because it suggests that there is nothing to music besides the most money you can make from it. I'm starting to think you're a troll, too.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: GUEST,Azizi
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 09:35 AM

Greetings to all those who earlier greeted me by name and greetings to those who didn't. I'm not writing this to elicit greetings but to express a concern I have.

I've been reading this thread with a great deal of interest (as opposed to skimming posts). And it occurs to me that taking on a persona and then asking for assistance from persons who post to an online community is one technique that a blogger could use to stimulate discussion and to inform readers about a particular subject or particular subjects. And I believe that MorwenEdhelwen1 may be using this technique.

Of course, there's no way of verifying this. And yes, I'm also aware that some people could (also) think that I put on a persona while blogging for a particular purpose or purposes. However, while I admit to an overarching reason for many of the posts I used to write on this forum (to increase the awareness of African American and other Black cultures), I did so and do so openly without the use of any persona.

However, it's possible that MorwenEdhelwen1 is actually a 17 year old Chinese girl from Australia who wants to be a Calypsonian. It's also possible that MorwenEdhelwen1 knows a lot about rather obsure (to most people) Calypsonians, and also (from this thread and, in particular other Mudcat threads) has exhibited a skill in doing online searches, but somehow didn't know that there were Chinese Calypsonians and also didn't know about Calypso message boards. It is also possible that rather than spend her time on Calypso and other Caribbean blogs, Morwen would prefer to spend her time and energy asking insistent questions about "obscure" (to most people) Calypso records and engaging in pointed conversation with persons on this folk music forum which-by now-she has realized has few if any posters who know much about Calypso music.

Again, all of this is possible. But I have my doubts.

And I don't like those persons who I consider my online friends to be fooled.

Yet I could be wrong. And, if so, my apologies to MorwenEdhelwen1.

Whatever the reason/s this thread was started, I am glad that this discussion elicited information about Calypso music as well as comments about the general subject of people performing music that isn't indigenous to them.

As the original poster wrote:

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 10:33 PM

And BTW, I agree with you when you say that to learn music from another culture, you need to respect it and become aware of its context as well as involved in the culture of the music as well as forming relationships that will gain you respect- and the best way to do it would be to be taught by someone from that culture who has extensive experience of the tradition. That's partly why I started this thread in the first place...

-snip-

Best wishes,

Azizi

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 07:04 AM

Can't help thinking if an artist wanted to be regarded as an august personage within a a traditional artform unblemished by sordid commerciality, would you choose the name Eek a Mouse...!

As you say brother Guest, the man talketh enormous bollocks. And did not Jesus say unto us, you will know Satan and his envoys by the enormous bollocks they talketh unremittingly.

You know bloody well if Paul Simon was making an album Graceland Three (subtitled Paul and the pygmies of Mongolia) - all the 'world musicians' would be queue-ing up to sell our Paul a few crotchets. Dreadnought strumming liberal or not.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 06:47 AM

Gibb Sahib, lighten up. Of course Morwen should (eventually) seek out actual Trinidadian practitioners if she wants to refine her craft. She should not, however, be required to seek anyone's permission to pursue her passion. The only limiting advice I'd give her is to sing in her own voice without attempting to mimic anyone else.

Your stale, bigoted swipes at those of us "dreadnought-strumming liberals" are not appreciated. This young woman does not need advice from anyone who puts limits on her dreams. The advice she's mostly gotten here is the same as yours. Don't be miffed that she's getting it from people who don't teach world music classes.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: Max Johnson
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 06:41 AM

he began to riffle his way through the 'world music' racks, looking to see if there was a copy of his own album.

He should worry. When one our albums went on sale at HMV on Oxford Street, we eventually found it under 'Easy Listening'. The bastards.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 05:44 AM

Thanks, Jack. Definitely think of those suggestions.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 05:43 AM

Does anyone have an idea how I could find tradition bearers in my home city?

Music shops have noticeboards for small ads.

Gumtree or whatever your local electronic small-ads board is. (You may have to repeat the ad every few weeks, as things tend to drop into invisibility quite fast).

Ask around any place that might have calypso music fans going to it - food shops or eateries with a Caribbean clientele, for example.

You sound determined enough that I can't imagine something along those lines not working.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 04:24 AM

*might

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 04:22 AM

Gibb, do you have suggestions on how I could ask Trinidadians how they feel about this? As I've written, I don't know any Trinidadians personally. GUEST mg suggested a trip, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't tell me anything personally. I highly doubt the other situations I've thought about mightn't help much.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 04:13 AM

Yes, probably. But for how long? A one-week trip isn't going to tell you much. People in the tourist industry are trained, pretty much expected, to be hospitable to travellers visiting their country. Unless it was something like a gap year or longer than that.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 04:03 AM

If you can afford it, a trip would be a great place to start, unless you have already. mg

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 03:23 AM

So, about the fact that I don't know any Trinidadian people to ask? What should I do about that? And how should I go about doing that?

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 03:18 AM

Thanks, Gibb! But the problem is I don't know any Trinidadians personally to ask. If I can ask you, when and how did you realise you would never be a professional in the style you were studying? What style was it?

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 02:42 AM

Morwen, you don't sound rude at all, and I hope I don't. Just being brief is all.
Clarification: "world music" means nothing that would be PRODUCTIVE to your purposes. Its very broadness makes it even less useful than "roots music" or "folk music" for use in *specific* study.

Go ask some Trinis!...and leave the folk biddies to their Anglophile warblings and bleatings :)

By the way, I learned music in a foreign culture over the span of 10 years. Had a formal, native teacher -- a hereditary professional, "born into" the tradition. Lived in the country 4 times (for spans of a years, months), also brought the teacher to my home 9USA) twice. Traveled all around and studied the playing of many performers. But I could only ever be considered an amateur, someone who "takes an interest." People would be flattered by my interest. However, I could never be a professional within that culture. No amount of skill/fluency would do it. My sense of ethics -- instilled by my teacher -- tells me that while I could appear as facsimile of a performer in other cultural spheres, that I *should* not. So I don't.

Moral of the story is that there is no blanket answer. Those that are saying, "It's no problem, go for it!" have not had occasion to consider all the situations. In my opinion they are speaking from a relatively narrow, even ethnocentric perspective.

It's culture-specific. Which is why you have to talk to people in calypso culture, not the strummers of dreadnaughts with hootenany straps -- mostly well-meaning, kind, welcoming liberals, but who have not had much experience living a life where your existence was so crappy that music was your only option for survival...and you don't take kindly to other with far more options taking over your music, imperfectly at that, as privileged choice. True, they may smile and praise you for learning their tradition -- but don't take advantage of their generous nature or code of hospitality. The resentment may not be obvious until, like with most colonized nations, there had to be an independence struggle.
Although people use the language of political correctness and inclusiveness, "colonizing" of a sort still goes on -- particularly in the global music industry.

It helps to think that some genres of music are in essence the people who have created them. They are not abstract forms available to anyone who would adopt their stylistic features. You might become one of the creators, and thus part of the music. Yet there's a profound difference between performing in a musical style and being one of its creators.

best wishes,
Gibb

P.S. I teach a university course right now called "World Music." :-)

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 02:29 AM

"World music" means nothing."
There's a story of a veteran Irish fiddle player who went into one of the big record shops in Dublin,
As there was no 'folk' or 'traditional' section, he beagn to riffle his way through the 'world music' racks, looking to see if there was a copy of his own album.
Not finding it, he rather disgruntledly went to the counter and asked, "got anything from anywhere else?"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 01:24 AM

Does anyone have an idea how I could find tradition bearers in my home city? I don't
know how because most of the calypso performers in Sydney appear to provide party music. I have almost no knowledge of the folk music scene beyond what's posted on these boards?

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 01:16 AM

if it is a big city as opposed to a small town, for your personal security reasons, I would just post it here. I am assuming that is not your real name. mg

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 12:25 AM

So, to go back to the question I asked a few posts earlier, does anyone have an idea how I could find tradition bearers in my home city? Would it be beneficial to ask on a "world music" message board?

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 12:04 AM

It's what they categorise it as in CD shops, even, I believe, on Smithsonian Folkways. It's a catchall term, not a genre name. it's just a broad category for the uncategorisable genres that don't belong to the broader ones and for a kind of "exotic" category. I'm sorry if I sounded like I thought that it did mean something. Most shops which sell CDS slam anything that doesn't fit the broader genre categories into "world music" which means any music which originates in places whose music styles are obscure and not really "popular", such as traditional West African music, for example. I hope this doesn't come off as angry or rude. 

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other t
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 11:44 PM

"World music" means nothing.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 11:20 PM

Sorry, I meant "world music".

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 11:04 PM

Calypso counts as "roots music" doesn't it? I may try and find roots music forums and ask the posters. Thanks for the suggestion.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 10:58 PM

I would find a message board for calypso lovers and mention the generic area at least. mg

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 10:33 PM

And BTW, I agree with you when you say that to learn music from another culture, you need to respect it and become aware of its context as well as involved in the culture of the music as well as forming relationships that will gain you respect- and the best way to do it would be to be taught by someone from that culture who has extensive experience of the tradition. That's partly why I started this thread in the first place- if I didn't want to learn the tradition correctly, I wouldn't have asked, I'd just have assumed I could do whatever I want and people would love it. Now does anyone have any tips as to how I might go about learning the tradition accurately and respectfully in the future, as well as having fun, by finding tradition bearers in my home city?

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 10:27 PM

You can't learn or grow as an artist in a vacuum.

The artists you may have available to learn from, may not be the best. Just like the friends you have, may not be the best people in the world. But folk music without real folks - rather like friendship without friends is not really possible. We must make do with what we have, and life is a miserable business without them.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 10:14 PM

Gibb Sahib, do you believe that I should sing calypso? I said maybe I'll ask my singing teacher...

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other t
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 10:07 PM

Two perspectives/examples to compare:

Eek-A-Mouse (Jamaican singer) venting about foreign singers (and locals from privileged class) stealing the spotlight from the sufferas:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDnBJio67pA

I have to admit I have a similar feeling when someone says, "Hey, Gibb, have you heard this Hasidic Jewish guy (Matisyahu) who sings reggae? He's really good." What's so great about him that I need to hear it? So what if he does a passable version of reggae for the ears of outsiders? There are so many great Jamaican artists that one could never scrape the bottom if they only looked at Jamaica. So why would I necessarily look to this American guy just because he is being put on the TV because he is a novelty? If he were my friend, I would support him. Not being my friend, I have no reason to disrespect him. Nevertheless I would naturally look to the artists involved in and accepted by the native culture of reggae music, first -- who are masters of all the subtle aspects of the music that bring satisfaction.

Gotta respect Eek-a-Mouse for speaking his mind, advocating for the "people who grow with reggae music" and not taking the liberal "it's all good" approach.

(The transcription of the video was written by someone with poor English skills. Let me know if you need any clarification.)

Second example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fR0oQwrlZD8

Not only is David Rodigan, a White man from England, very widely accepted/respected in his genre (reggae sound systems/clash), many Jamaicans consider him to be among the best. Part of this is because he has developed the relationships and gone through the experiences to earn that respect. He has not been exploitative (either actively or passively). And, luckily, in this particular genre, one's "skills" ultimately count for more than one's nationality/color/etc.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 10:05 PM

They might not be native Trinidadians though. Call me a purist or whatever you like but I read on one blog (just one person's opinion, so you can disregard it if you want) that the best way of learning from another culture and avoiding cultural appropriation is to learn from someone from that culture. As I said, maybe I should ask my singing teacher.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 09:59 PM

Why not check out these calypso bands, they may contain musicians who view of calypso might appear commercially compromised - but they may have some techniques you can learn from. Also perhaps tricks of diction and communication that the record companies got the original artist you have heard, to abandon.

Unless you are a very big star, or you are recording for a folk label where they don't expect to sell many copies - the musician is not the boss when he goes into a recording studio. When a company is putting up big bucks to record and promote a record that they think has a good chance of making them money, they take over. They are taking the financial risk - and they call the shots.

learn from whoever you can.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 09:33 PM

Jack, I understand what you are saying about "If you are in a big multicultural city there should be a practicing calypso performer or two around." The problem is that I don't know of any calypso performers (by that I mean calypsonians) in the city where I live in Australia- Sydney, which is big and multicultural. There seem to be a few calypso bands around but from the descriptions (I searched on Google for "calypso singing scene Sydney"), they seem to specialise in providing party music. I guess I'll have to ask my singing or piano teacher.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 08:59 PM

Thanks, GUEST,Ref.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: GUEST,Ref
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 08:44 PM

...And if you need any more inspiration, check out Johnny Clegg.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: GUEST,Ref
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 07:46 PM

Sing what you like to sing, Morwen. Life is too short to worry about gaining the approval of jerks.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 06:59 PM

Yeah, that's a problem. I'm sure that there are bad performances on YouTube or anywhere by singers who have no idea of what they are singing.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 06:53 PM

Sort of an aside, but I've been bothered for years by performers and groups telling me something like "This next song is from the Balkans. It's the song the women sing when they go to harvest the apples." Do they REALLY know what they're singing? It IS, after all, from the Balkans, and I always have the sneaking suspicion that what they're really singing is the song the women sing when they go out to finish off the wounded and mutilate the dead.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 06:10 PM

Of course, calypso is mostly improvised, different from gospel, blues and jazz. I guess I'll have to do what Jack Campin suggested, or find a calypso performer who could teach me. But this will all to have to be done in the future, when I'm finished studying and have had singing lessons. I think a basic knowledge of singing techniques is important whatever a singer chooses to do.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 05:42 PM

Judith Durham sang blues and gospel, despite the fact that she had classical vocal training.

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 05:36 PM

In some cases it might be advantageous to have an outside objective view of a culture. I think of probably one of the greatest interpreters of Italian classical songs, Jussi Boerling who was Swedish.

Pete never tried to adopt the musical characteristics that were specific to cultural styles, though. He did it his way.

Leadbelly sang songs his way and changed them (ie: Kisses Sweeter Than Wine taken from Dhrinnan the Cow, an Irish song.

I think that jazz is a product of musical acculturation.

Most folk music is the same. You can slavishly try to imitate another singer or in attempting to play so-called "alien" music, you might define your own style.

The most problem you will have with this approach is that there will always be stuffy academics who will say "that's not the way you do it." It's best to ignore them, folk snobs and pseudo musicologists.

The most important aspect in performing music from another culture is to
try to understand it in depth as best you can. Even in the traditional cultures,
the way some play the music in one village will differ than the way some do in another village. The idea of authenticity becomes vague; the attempt to approach it sincerely and study it gives the performance a validity of its own.

Take the blues for instance. In spite of the attempt, many white blues artists don't have quite the same phrasing or physical interpretations as black artists but so what? They study and what they do is valid in expressing the meaning of the music rather than an arbitrary "style".

Subject: RE: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 05:32 PM

And surely that means that someone (me) with a singing voice that has been described as "a combination of Joan Baez and Judith Durham" by one teacher at her school can go on to become a professional calypsonian, performing in tents?