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Clogging question?

GUEST,LDT 20 Apr 11 - 04:58 AM
johnadams 20 Apr 11 - 05:08 AM
GUEST,LDT 20 Apr 11 - 07:57 AM
catspaw49 20 Apr 11 - 08:51 AM
Dead Horse 20 Apr 11 - 08:51 AM
ChrisJBrady 20 Apr 11 - 08:55 AM
ChrisJBrady 20 Apr 11 - 09:01 AM
GUEST,LTD 20 Apr 11 - 09:17 AM
treewind 20 Apr 11 - 09:22 AM
GUEST,Eliza 20 Apr 11 - 09:26 AM
GUEST,LTD 20 Apr 11 - 09:43 AM
Tradsinger 20 Apr 11 - 10:01 AM
ChrisJBrady 20 Apr 11 - 11:02 AM
GUEST 20 Apr 11 - 11:11 AM
GUEST,LTD 20 Apr 11 - 11:13 AM
Desert Dancer 20 Apr 11 - 11:15 AM
Tradsinger 20 Apr 11 - 12:53 PM
treewind 20 Apr 11 - 01:11 PM
treewind 20 Apr 11 - 01:12 PM
ChrisJBrady 20 Apr 11 - 01:19 PM
Tradsinger 20 Apr 11 - 01:49 PM
GUEST,LDT 21 Apr 11 - 04:52 AM
pavane 21 Apr 11 - 08:04 AM
johnadams 21 Apr 11 - 08:23 AM
GUEST,LDT 21 Apr 11 - 02:15 PM
sian, west wales 21 Apr 11 - 05:49 PM
ChrisJBrady 21 Apr 11 - 07:54 PM
GUEST,Jim Martin 22 Apr 11 - 09:20 AM
GUEST 22 Apr 11 - 09:21 AM
ChrisJBrady 23 Apr 11 - 05:31 AM
GUEST,Jim Martin 23 Apr 11 - 07:52 AM
ChrisJBrady 23 Apr 11 - 01:26 PM
GUEST 26 Apr 11 - 11:53 AM
GUEST,lurcio 26 Apr 11 - 04:33 PM
Mo the caller 27 Apr 11 - 08:18 AM
GUEST,LDT 27 Apr 11 - 09:56 AM
Ruth Archer 27 Apr 11 - 10:03 AM
GUEST,LDT 27 Apr 11 - 10:14 AM
Ruth Archer 27 Apr 11 - 11:02 AM
GUEST,LDT 30 Apr 11 - 04:21 AM
GUEST,LDT 06 May 11 - 04:50 AM
sian, west wales 11 May 11 - 05:11 AM
GUEST,LDT 04 Jun 11 - 05:28 AM
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Subject: Clogging question?
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 04:58 AM

I ordered a pair of clogs after seeing the bbc show about it in a fit of enthusiasm which belies my lack of dance ability and two left feet. They are now ready and I'm panicking a bit.

- I have a question. Clog dancing. Can it be danced as something separate from morris? (I want to do it more as a solo kinda 'keep fit' thing...)
- In other words I want to learn the steps but not join a 'team'.
- What are the different types?
- And what is most commonly danced in the south east (uk)?
- Are there any tutorial videos on youtube?


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: johnadams
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 05:08 AM

Solo clog dancing in England is a historic form and has different styles in the various regions, notably Lancashire, County Durham and Westmorland but there will be others and also there is a Welsh tradition which I've not seen displayed for years.

I'm away from home and on a slow connection at the moment so I can't check You Tube stuff but if you search it for Lancashire Wallopers you'll get to the experts who gather round Harry Cowgill and Melanie Barber and that crowd.

Ryburn 3 Step are planning a beginners day for clog dancers sometime later this year but it might be a bit far for you to travel. I'm sure that folks here will come up with the relevant advice.


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 07:57 AM

Thanks for the pointers....been enjoying the vids
here. Shame its all so far north. :(


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 08:51 AM

Clogging can be fraught with problems. The solution to those problems!!! Hope this helps!


Spaw


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: Dead Horse
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 08:51 AM

http://kerryfletcher.co.uk/gigs.html
Excellent teacher of all things dance & clog and she is in South East.


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 08:55 AM

I am assuming that you mean *English* clog dancing as opposed to the misnamed 'Appalachian clogging' aka a sort of folkie tap dancing which is entirely different. But whatever clog dancing or step dancing with wooden-soled shoes can be done solo &/or in a group. It can be done formally on a stage, or informally in a pub session (the latter of course is currently illegal unless the pub. is licensed for dancing).

You will have a problem learning on your own although I did hear of a young guy who taught himself French-Canadian steeping from a video. So the best way is to find a teacher.

You will be taught some steps, and as Sammy Bell (Champion clog dancer from the 1930s) said to me about 20 years ago "I've taught you my steps now they are yours to do with as you wish." So the steps he taught me are now mine to develop or change as I wish, and maybe to pass on to others.

Clog dancing is all about personal style within the tradition of the steps, e.g. Lancashire, Welsh, Northumberland & Durham, Scottish even, etc.

You didn't say where you are based. But there are clog dance classes at Cecil Sharp House in London run by Pat Tracey's group the Camden Cloggies. They teach Pat's inimitable Lancashire styles (there are a number of styles from Lancs).

There's a number of clog groups in the South if that's where you are.
Actually if you email EFDSS they can tell you where the nearest clog groups are.

But there is a repository of clips of clog dancing from the Reading Cloggies Festival. These can be found on Tony Barrand's DVRA database. Go to: http://www.bu.edu/dbin/dance/
ALSO you might like to download the following films from Google Video before they all get deleted:

Reading Festival 1990

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=8025092240876326309
   
Reading Festival 1992

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-5482374110745073337

Also if you want videos / dvds then contact Chris Metherell at chris AT metherell DOT org DOT uk

He can sell you those of Sam Sherry, Pat Tracey - including her instructionals, Sammy Bell, Ivy Sands, Mrs. Marhof, etc.

Geoff Hughes also has an excellent beginners book that you can get from EFDSS or Amazon: Clog Steps for Beginners by Geoff Hughes.

Good luck.


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 09:01 AM

"http://kerryfletcher.co.uk/gigs.html
Excellent teacher of all things dance & clog and she is in South East."

Yes, excellent indeed - from the website she appears to teach modern Appalachian 'clogging'. I'm not sure that this is what the OP is looking for though. Although it is great to watch and do, I'm not sure that you can dance modern Appalachian step dancing in English clogs!!!


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: GUEST,LTD
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 09:17 AM

Yeah. I meant English rather than Appalacian.
Everything I look up locally seems to involve North West Morris???
But its not morris I'm interested in.

I did have a go at a East Anglian Stepdancing workshop once. Was rather wobbly..I think wearing heels (only hard soled shoe I had) might have been my error. :/

<< Clog dancing is all about personal style within the tradition of the steps, e.g. Lancashire, Welsh, Northumberland & Durham, Scottish even, etc. >>
I like the thought of that. That it can be 'customized'.

My mum is always using me as a guinea pig for teaching beginners ballroom dancing (dancing with me is like dancing with a plank of wood apparently...and if I can pick something up anyone can. lol!)

<>
I did have a look at that. But it means a trek to then across london to camden to get there. I could do once a month during day at a weekend perhaps....but evening classes just don't work for my schedule.

I did get someone suggest I try chelmsford ladies as they might have a stepclogger (is that the right term?) I'm always worried I'm not using the correct terminology.


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: treewind
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 09:22 AM

- Can it be danced as something separate from morris?
- In other words I want to learn the steps but not join a 'team'.

Most certainly!

- What are the different types?
I think that's been answered above.

- And what is most commonly danced in the south east (uk)?
We don't have a clog tradition - we have East Anglian step dancing instead, (as you WELL know:-)) But there are people around East Anglia who do solo Lancashire and Westmorland clog.

I suggest you get in touch with Sarah Graves - despite not mentioning it on her web site, she is (or used to be) a cloggie supreme. If she's not dancing or teaching it any more, she might well know who is, in your area.


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 09:26 AM

I know it's not what you're looking for, but do watch 'Blue Ridge Mountain Dancers with Pete Seeger' on Youtube. The first time I watched this it blew my mind away, and I must have viewed it dozens of times since, it's just amazing. (And filmed about fifty years ago I think). That in my view is CLOGGING!


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: GUEST,LTD
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 09:43 AM

"We don't have a clog tradition - we have East Anglian step dancing instead, (as you WELL know:-)) "
I have noticed. ;)


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: Tradsinger
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 10:01 AM

We tend to call it step dancing in the south of England. The Devon version is taught every year at the Dartmoor Folk Festival. There are also people learning Sussex step dancing whom I can put you in touch with. As others have said, this is a separate tradition from Morris clog. There are quite a number of gypsies who are very good at step dancing, namely the Wests and Buckleys in Cambridgeshire and the Orchards in Devon.

Good luck

Tradsinger (not a stepdancer myself)


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 11:02 AM

Hmm - Sussex step dancing - a la Scan Tester maybe? That's my home county - who are those teaching / learning it? I know that there is a Sussex stick dance called 'Over the Sticks' and also a broom dance. but I wasn't aware that there is any step dancing left.

Yes - Sarah is a good contact for English clogging / step dancing.

The other Romany step dancing from Zeal near Dartmoor is Tommy Orchard - he's on YouTube. And I have hours of footage of him which I must upload sometime. I've even seen (filmed) his kids (now grown up) who step dance in trainers! And very good they were too

But you ask about clog dancing. Yes - try the Chelmsford Ladies. Whilst they do do clog morris they also do step clog dancing. And they might be able to put you in touch with other clog dancers.

Meanwhile have a look at my work in progress at chrisjbrady DOT com

Chris B.


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 11:11 AM

Well I always enjoy watching the stepdancing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_G1DYsVEH8

And went to the stepdance day last year.


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: GUEST,LTD
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 11:13 AM

But I've bought the clogs...and will use them.

Thanks for all the pointers so far. Consolidating all the info before I go and fire off emails.


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 11:15 AM

CJB,

Appalachian clogging or flatfooting is never (or certainly not typically) danced in English clogs, so between that and Guest,LTD's reference to the morris context, it's clear she's not talking about Appalachian clogging.

Originally, all of these forms were free-form, individualized step dancing, so "folkie tap dancing" is not a particularly distinguishing term.

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: Tradsinger
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 12:53 PM

Here's the video of Tommy Orchard stepping http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_G1DYsVEH8 and yes he really does step that fast.

Tradsinger


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: treewind
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 01:11 PM

Not that one - That's Doreen West O'Connor dancing, and me playing!


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: treewind
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 01:12 PM

YOu meant this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDGLF1kMoW4 I think...


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 01:19 PM

"CJB, Appalachian clogging or flatfooting is never (or certainly not typically) danced in English clogs, so between that and Guest,LTD's reference to the morris context, it's clear she's not talking about Appalachian clogging. Originally, all of these forms were free-form, individualized step dancing, so "folkie tap dancing" is not a particularly distinguishing term. ~ Becky in Tucson"

But I disagree that all the step dance traditions in the States were free-form. Maybe flat-footing / buck dancing were free-form and individualised.

BUT there were at least four clog dancing (wooden-soled shoes) traditions in the States that had routines up to a point and all but one of these has been completely neglected for over 80 years.

Seek out Rhett Kraus' excellent articles on Clog Dancing on the America Music Hall Stage (CDSS Journal). Tony Barrand has some of the original wooden split-soled shoes used by some of the professional clog dancers - Dick Sands, Henry Tucker, Ed. James, and others. Their manuals are all online. They date from the late 1800s. Their steps routines have been ignored and unresearched for years.

And I'm not talking about Juba here - although he and the other negro minstels of his time would be yet a second tradition of clog dancing (with wooden-soled shoes) now also lost forever.

Then there are the routines in the books by Helen Frost from the 1920s which describe old-time clog dance routines (wooden-soled shoes again).

And finally there are the Marleys, researched and filmed by Tony Barrand. See: http://homepages.sover.net/~barrand/NDM.html

So in comparison with these four (at least) forgotten traditions the so-called Appalachian 'clog' dancing simply isn't 'clog dancing.' No clogs or wooden-soled shoes are worn, but taps shoes with metal / fibre glass taps are.

The term 'clogging' for Appalachian step dancing (in tap shoes) is only used, and sadly is highly commercialised into a multi-million dollar business, because our young Queen at the times saw some flat-footing / buck dancing once on a visit to Appalachia and thought that it looked a bit like real clog dancing as per the English form. For some unknown reason the term 'clogging' then stuck to what she saw - but clogging it ain't.


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: Tradsinger
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 01:49 PM

Did I post the wrong url? Sorry.


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 04:52 AM

Shame they don't do Wii Step/Clog dancing now that would be handy. (I can play the dance computer games where you have to step on the arrows at the right time...well till I broke the mat that was)


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: pavane
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 08:04 AM

Welsh Clog dancing is alive and well, as far as I know, and can be see at the National Eisteddfod if not elsewhere. The steps differ from English, and much of the tradition has had to be "re-invented" due to lack of surviving dancers.

Some years ago, Mrs Pavane was a dancer (until she wrecked her knees), and I was a musician, for a side in Pontardawe.

Unfortunately, the Eisteddfod is a competition, and the judges insist on the dances being done to traditional Welsh tunes which are known to them. If you find a tune which they don't happen to know, however traditional it is, you get marked down without any chance of appeal. This tends to inhibit originality, and you find all the dances being done to the same few tunes.


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: johnadams
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 08:23 AM

You used to see Welsh clog dance from time to time at English festivals and I think the last time I saw it was from the band Ar Log, who, according to Wikipedia, might still be performing.

I'm not sure that 'alive and well' is covered by the description of the Eisteddfod situation.It would be nice to see the dancing out and about again and developing.


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 02:15 PM

sounds like someone needs to set it free. ;)


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 05:49 PM

Excuse me, people, but there's quite a lot of clogging/stepping in Wales apart from the Eisteddfod. Huw Williams (of Huw & Tony Williams previously) does a lot of work in schools teaching the dance as part of the Welsh Curriculum. I've used him in a number of community projects as well, including a day of clogging in Cricieth on 10 June (come all ye). And he'll be running a clogging stream in our next big weekend event, 21 - 24 October so if you want a lot of instruction packed into a short period of time, that's for you.

Actually, clogging is the only _unbroken_ dance tradition in Wales, pavane. It survived thanks to the Welsh gypsies - primarily the Woods family. It's the Court Dances and Fair Dances that mostly had to be reinvented.

sian


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 07:54 PM

"Actually, clogging is the only _unbroken_ dance tradition in Wales, pavane. It survived thanks to the Welsh gypsies - primarily the Woods family. It's the Court Dances and Fair Dances that mostly had to be reinvented."

Digressing somewhat - not actually 'reinvented.' What happened was that revivalists scoured the old dance manuals for Welsh sounding dances and then deemed them to be part of a lost Welsh 'tradition.' Google or search the catalogues of the BL (and Birmingham University incidentally) for the dances in John Walsh's Dancing Master of there late 1700s/early 1800s. He had quite a few from wales (presumably).

The RSCDS did this for the Scots. See The Invention of Scotland by Hugh Trevor Roper.

The same thing happened regionally with the Kentish Hops 'tradition' - the old books were searched for Kentish sounding names, which were then published and voila a new tradition.

There is a new Cornish 'tradition' of dances which suddenly appeared a few years ago.

Once in the 1970s when I had the UB40s I searched C#H Library for dances with names alluding to the Regency and Sussex. I was going to create a Sussex 'tradition' of country dancing. But then I got a job ...

Its all called the Invention of Tradition as described by Hugh Trevor Roper.


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 09:20 AM

Just been watching your videos of Dan Fury & the McCarthy sisters at WCSS and thoroughly enjoyed them. Hope the Google ones don't get lost!


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 09:21 AM

"Just been watching your videos of Dan Fury & the McCarthy sisters at WCSS and thoroughly enjoyed them. Hope the Google ones don't get lost!"

Sorry, that was meant for Chris Brady.


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 05:31 AM

Yup - Google is wiping it. But it may go up on YouTube. I have the original footage.

Incidentally there's a great clip of Dan Furey at

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WvhPtiarW4

Now THAT's step dancing!!!

And here is a clog competition in the 1890s:

into your post:

http://www.mediafire.com/?39mgab18dlbud


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 07:52 AM

Thanks again Chris.

Yes, I'd seen that clip of Dan & the Wren dancers before (incidentally, do you know who the guy on the box was?). Thank God you got those clips, I'll bet not many (if any) others did!


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 01:26 PM

Comments say that box player on the Wrens clip is:

"Alfie Marrinan on the accordian; a living legend!"


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 11:53 AM

refresh


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: GUEST,lurcio
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 04:33 PM

Two words - Sam Sherry. Dead now, sadly, but on youthing I believe. Vera Aspey may still be clogging but I have not seen her for some years.

Good luck.

L.


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 08:18 AM

Are there any festivals that do Clog workshops now?
We went to some at Whitby in the 80s, but I decided that my feet are not conected to my brain - I prefer dancing figures, to steps.

My husband found that the Whitby programme was not as informative as it could have been, and turned up to a 'clog workshop' that turned out to be a Morris Team rather than Green Ginger or the Lancashire Wallopers that he'd attended the year before (yes I know it was probably there in the programme somewhere - but who has time at a festival to hunt for details on other pages?)


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 09:56 AM

Yes. Festival clog workshops would be handy to know.


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 10:03 AM

Lots of clog at Sidmouth this year. We're welcoming Jackie Toaduff, who was recently in the clog dancing programme on BBC 4, and Laura Connolly who also featured as the teacher in the programme. Jackie doesn't dance anymore, but Laura will be teaching his repertoire, and there will be screenings of rare footage of Jackie dancing.

This is all coming via Chris Metherell and the Instep Research Team.


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 10:14 AM

Sounds like what I'd be interested in...but afraid this year is out due to lack of funds and holiday days. :(
Will there be something similar next year?


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 11:02 AM

We tend to have a good range of clogging stuff each year.


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 04:21 AM

Woo! my clogs have arrived. :)


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 06 May 11 - 04:50 AM

Oooh, I found out something yesterday. Showed my grandad & grandma my clogs. And my Grandad turns round to say his Dad told him his dads mum (My great great grandmother) used to own a pub in Grimsby (and had enough money to be able to leave her 7 children £100 each), where she clog step danced. How weird is that. lol!
Hope it's true and I've inherited the right genes. ;)


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 11 May 11 - 05:11 AM

Just to let you know that trac is working with the Cricieth Festival to offer a Clogging/Stepping day on Saturday 11 June, 10 am till 4.45 pm at Ysgol (school) Treferthyr, Heol Henbont, Cricieth.

There'll be a Master Class with Huw Williams
for improving performance, developing step routines, choreography, etc and a Beginners and Improvers with Penny Sheard.

Footwear: Clogs if possible or Hard soled shoes otherwise (sandals/ trainers etc not suitable). Some Clogs (not lots!) will be available to borrow.

Costs: Adult (over 18) full day £17.50 Youth (12 -18) £15.00 Child (under 12) £10.00.

Clog-maker Trefor Owen is organizing the day; PM me for his contact details if you're interested.

sian


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Subject: RE: Clogging question?
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 04 Jun 11 - 05:28 AM

I've decided to 'blog' my progress or not as the case may be
http://thelearningtoclogblog.blogspot.com/


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