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Country of Origin of Soldiers Joy? Midi?

DigiTrad:
SOLDIER'S JOY
SOLDIER'S JOY 2


Related threads:
Lyr Req: Soldier's Joy (33)
(origins) Origins: Soldier's Joy (70)
Tune Req: Soldier's Joy (12)
Lyr Req: Soldier's Joy (4) (closed)
Lyr Req: Soldier's Joy (6)


Nan 15 Sep 99 - 10:31 PM
Mike Fiore ( mfiore@netscape.net) 15 Sep 99 - 10:38 PM
Barry Finn 15 Sep 99 - 10:40 PM
BobLusk 15 Sep 99 - 10:46 PM
Jon Freeman 15 Sep 99 - 10:55 PM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 15 Sep 99 - 11:03 PM
j0_77 15 Sep 99 - 11:15 PM
15 Sep 99 - 11:27 PM
Barry Finn 15 Sep 99 - 11:38 PM
alison 16 Sep 99 - 12:44 AM
M. Ted (inactive) 16 Sep 99 - 12:54 AM
Philippa 16 Sep 99 - 05:52 AM
Jim Lucas 16 Sep 99 - 08:24 AM
Jon Freeman 16 Sep 99 - 09:02 AM
selby 16 Sep 99 - 12:51 PM
Malcolm Douglas 16 Sep 99 - 02:45 PM
wildlone 16 Sep 99 - 02:53 PM
Guy Wolff 16 Sep 99 - 05:38 PM
paddymac 16 Sep 99 - 06:13 PM
dick greenhaus 16 Sep 99 - 08:20 PM
Amaranth 16 Sep 99 - 09:49 PM
GeorgeH 17 Sep 99 - 08:08 AM
M. Ted (inactive) 17 Sep 99 - 12:04 PM
radriano 17 Sep 99 - 02:19 PM
Ted from Australia 18 Sep 99 - 02:51 AM
toadfrog 16 Nov 02 - 08:56 PM
greg stephens 16 Nov 02 - 09:21 PM
masato sakurai 16 Nov 02 - 09:27 PM
GUEST,Dennis W 11 Dec 11 - 10:07 AM
GUEST,dryanddusty 02 Feb 12 - 01:41 PM
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Subject: Country of Orgin of Soldiers Joy?Midi?
From: Nan
Date: 15 Sep 99 - 10:31 PM

Is Soldiers Joy American in orgin or ? Anyone know a place where I can find the midi AND the gif? Thanks! Nan


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Subject: RE: Country of Orgin of Soldiers Joy?Midi?
From: Mike Fiore ( mfiore@netscape.net)
Date: 15 Sep 99 - 10:38 PM

This song is performed by a traditional Scottish group called "Father,Son, and Friends" which I fall into the latter catagory. I think you will find that is Scottish in nature.


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Subject: RE: Country of Orgin of Soldiers Joy?Midi?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 15 Sep 99 - 10:40 PM

Search the fourm, there's been a great deal of info on this tune/song. Barry


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Subject: RE: Country of Orgin of Soldiers Joy?Midi?
From: BobLusk
Date: 15 Sep 99 - 10:46 PM

I believe in England it was called Kings Head - Definatly not american in origin

Bob


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Subject: RE: Country of Orgin of Soldiers Joy?Midi?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 15 Sep 99 - 10:55 PM

Like Mike, I would suggest that Soliders Joy is Scottish. A good source for finding tunes in ABC, MIDI, gif and PostScript is John Chambers Tune Search which does have more than one version of this tune and can be found at: http://trillian.mit.edu/~jc/music/abc/FindTune.html

Jon


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Subject: RE: Country of Orgin of Soldiers Joy?Midi?
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 15 Sep 99 - 11:03 PM

It could be Scottish, I have no opinion. However, I know of at least two songs in English, one of which is written by Robert Burns. (According to the versions in DT). There is at least one, if not nore, song in Scottish Gaelic for that tune.


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Subject: RE: Country of Orgin of Soldiers Joy?Midi?
From: j0_77
Date: 15 Sep 99 - 11:15 PM

Info. The structure of the tune is 4/4 Hornpipe so it's more that likely English, just an opinion.


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Subject: RE: Country of Orgin of Soldiers Joy?Midi?
From:
Date: 15 Sep 99 - 11:27 PM

Song and tune were published as a single sheet song with music in London, c 1760 (listed in BUCEM). That I haven't seen, but both were reprinted in a book of c 1778, and from this both are at www.erols.com/olsonw. Start in Scarce Songs 1 file for song, and a note there will direct you to an ABC of the tune.


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Subject: RE: Country of Orgin of Soldiers Joy?Midi?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 15 Sep 99 - 11:38 PM

Goddam you, will you just log in & come back Bruce O (if that was you?) instead of lurking out there. There aren't many that leave a trail of info behind that even a dead dog like myself can sniff out & say that even the ounce & a half of droppings you just left tells more about the song & where to get to it's roots & about who posted the info than moose turd in the desert could tell a hunter. You were always welcomed here & been missed. Barry


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Subject: RE: Country of Orgin of Soldiers Joy?Midi?
From: alison
Date: 16 Sep 99 - 12:44 AM

Here you go..... GIF and ABC at Richard Robinson's tunebook......

there are afew different versions there....

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Country of Orgin of Soldiers Joy?Midi?
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 16 Sep 99 - 12:54 AM

There is a old nameless Ukranian dance melody that always sounded suspiciously like "Soldier's Joy" to me--but those major melodies all sound alike, don't they?


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Subject: RE: Country of Orgin of Soldiers Joy?Midi?
From: Philippa
Date: 16 Sep 99 - 05:52 AM

When I heard the tune in Norway, my companions told me it was a typical Norwegian reel. But I didn't here many reels in the Norwegian repetoire, My companion from Orkney, where there is much Norse influence, told me the tune is well-known on her island as well.


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Subject: RE: Country of Orgin of Soldiers Joy?Midi?
From: Jim Lucas
Date: 16 Sep 99 - 08:24 AM

You can add both Finland and Denmark to the list of countries where it's considered a native dance tune. I'll try to remember to ask my Polish friends this weekend.

I have an old (50s, I think) Capitol recording of Ukrainian dance music which includes a tune that sounds suspiciously like "I'm a Little Teapot". I wouldn't be surprised if several simple tunes (ur-tunes?) either arose independently in more than one place or originated while tribes were still migrating through Europe.

Other explanations are possible, however. I recently heard a Danish band playing several "native" tunes from one of the smaller islands, which were clearly recognizable as Playford dance tunes. And I'm told that in Norway it's considered just fine to take contemporary Appalachian tunes, play them in the local style, and claim them as Norwegian.

By the way, I'm curious about the statement that Soldier's Joy is a hornpipe. I've always heard it played like a reel, fast and even.


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Subject: RE: Country of Orgin of Soldiers Joy?Midi?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 16 Sep 99 - 09:02 AM

The Scandinavian influences on Celtic music subject recently cropped up in rec.music.celtic. I don't have any real knowledge on this but the arguements for it occuring (especially if you accept that the Vikings were not the "rapers looters and pillagers" that some history books portray them as) seems quite reasonable to me and a tune like Soldiers Joy could therefore equally be well known in say Norway as it is in the Celtic repertiore.

I have heard Soldiers Joy played as a hornpipe on rare occasions but IMO, it sounds best played fast. I think of it as a reel but I find that it can fit in quite happily in a set of polkas but there again, I have been known to put St Annes Reel in the middle of polkas...

Jon


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Subject: RE: Country of Orgin of Soldiers Joy?Midi?
From: selby
Date: 16 Sep 99 - 12:51 PM

In Mike Ravens 1000 English Country Dance Tunes Soldiers Joy is suggested by its position in the book to be a hornpipe. But in the preface to the section it says "----- The reel is a fast dance with 2 beats to the bar& a Hornpipe is moderately paced with 4 beats to the bar & a characteristacally dotted rythm. By simply varying the tempo & lilt the same tune can serve both dances " The book is a constant source of insparation to myself and a good tune scource. As for Soldiers Joy it is a very good tune however you play it.


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Subject: RE: Country of Orgin of Soldiers Joy?Midi?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 16 Sep 99 - 02:45 PM

I seem to remember seeing Soldiers Joy described as a rant, as well. The tune turns up in Sweden, too, where it is called "Engelska": presumably they think it's originally English.

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: Country of Orgin of Soldiers Joy?Midi?
From: wildlone
Date: 16 Sep 99 - 02:53 PM

a friend of mine,John Waltham who is a bit of a collector tells of a tune which variants of can be found from Turkey to Scandinavia. all local, all trad. you just can't keep a good tune down can you.WL.


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Subject: RE: Country of Orgin of Soldiers Joy?Midi?
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 16 Sep 99 - 05:38 PM

I'm always happy to hear the family tree of an old friend ,,It sounds like the kind of tune alot of people have odoped{SP?} for their own!The other day I was talking about putting Soldgers joy on a CD I had done and the reaction was very exsteme.."It's been done so many times!" I think when a peice has such a stronge personal history for anyone it becomes theirs and so completly new...Thats why its still with us and living strong!!!Every time we Adoped a tune it becomes new again...My answer to this young Fiddler was "You've never heard me do it".I don't know if she got what I meant or just thought I was some stange EGOMANIAC..Who knows<<<>>>> Yours guy

PS I just donated 12 of the cd's to max for the Mudcat so ask him for it if you like. All the best..


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Subject: RE: Country of Orgin of Soldiers Joy?Midi?
From: paddymac
Date: 16 Sep 99 - 06:13 PM

It's a great tune, indeed. But it seems so wide-spread that it's real country of origin may be impossible to determine. I understand and appreciate a song sleuth's interest in origins, but a tune such as this makes you wonder if it really matters in the grand scheme of things. (sort of like Ashokan Farewell) Maybe we could better focus on what there is about it (or any tune) that leads so many peoples to embrace it. How do it's various names in languages other than English translate?


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Subject: RE: Country of Orgin of Soldiers Joy?Midi?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Sep 99 - 08:20 PM

My goodness--Jim Lucas. Welcome aboard. Yes, I've heard SJ as a hornpipe, and it's certainly easier to fit Burns' words if it's played that way.


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Subject: RE: Country of Orgin of Soldiers Joy?Midi?
From: Amaranth
Date: 16 Sep 99 - 09:49 PM

I heard that Soldier's Joy was composed by an American First World War vet, who had been wounded and returned to the states addicted to morphine...I have only heard it done on the fiddle


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Subject: RE: Country of Orgin of Soldiers Joy?Midi?
From: GeorgeH
Date: 17 Sep 99 - 08:08 AM

Amaranth: I guess the morphine had muddled the vet's memory of how he came by the tune . .

I'd always believed the tune to be Southern English so it's amazing to learn just how widespread it is. As for the Scandinavian / "Celtic" connection - IIRC Shetland is closer to Scandinavia than it is to mainland Scotland (then again it also has a fairly distinct musical tradition, which gets obscured by that damned catch-all "celtic" label).

G.


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Subject: RE: Country of Orgin of Soldiers Joy?Midi?
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 17 Sep 99 - 12:04 PM

The great thing about a strong melody line is that once you've learned it, you can play it in whatever dance rhythm your dancers like--

I have played a good deal of Balkan dance music, and I know that the itinerant musicians to fill out there dance repertoire by simply taking melodies they knew and playing them in the dance meter that people wanted--

We used to play "Jingle Bells" in a 7/8 Bugarian medley and no one would ever notice--

Jim Lucas, you mentioned "I'm a Little Teapot" have you ever noticed how much it sounds like "Hatikvah"?


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Subject: RE: Country of Orgin of Soldiers Joy?Midi?
From: radriano
Date: 17 Sep 99 - 02:19 PM

Hello, all:

I couldn't say with certainty what the country of origin is for Soldier's Joy but I have seen it in Irish collections and it is usually classified as a hornpipe. It certainly has the classic hornpipe format.

Regards,
radriano


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Subject: RE: Country of Orgin of Soldiers Joy?Midi?
From: Ted from Australia
Date: 18 Sep 99 - 02:51 AM

G'day Nan,
If you still want a MIDI of SJ sened me your email address and i will forward it to you ed42@4kz.com.au

Regards Ted


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Subject: RE: Country of Orgin of Soldiers Joy?Midi?
From: toadfrog
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 08:56 PM


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Subject: RE: Country of Orgin of Soldiers Joy?Midi?
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 09:21 PM

Not all hornpipes are(or were) played slow and dotted. You can play them either way. Try the Sailors(College). I reckon from the style the tune could be northern English or Scottish in origin, no way of deciding. First publication in England doesnt prove anything. Now its English, Scottish, Welsh, Irish, American, Australian etc etc etc.


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Subject: RE: Country of Orgin of Soldiers Joy?Midi?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 09:27 PM

Related threads (and links there):

Soldier's Joy

Origins: 'Soldier's Joy'?

See also The Fiddler's Companion: Result of search for "soldier's joy".

~Masato


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Subject: RE: Country of Origin of Soldiers Joy? Midi?
From: GUEST,Dennis W
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 10:07 AM

Soldiers Joy is the name of the Cabell ancestral home situated in Nelson County Virginia and built around 1785. Anyone know if there is any connection between this ancient tune and it's present name?


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Subject: RE: Country of Origin of Soldiers Joy? Midi?
From: GUEST,dryanddusty
Date: 02 Feb 12 - 01:41 PM

This tune was definitely in tune collections around 1750-60 in both England and Scotland, and it is such a basic tune that it's not surprising to find similar tunes in other traditions. In any case, plenty of amateur and professional musicians and dancing masters were travelling around Europe in the 1700s, so any good tune was bound to travel widely. It was in America before 1800, again not suprising based on the number of immigrants and the many officers and soldiers who crossed the pond. Sometimes you hear people claim that its name relates to morphine or drug use, but since the tune was around in the 1700s and morphine didnt get widely used until the 1850s, it's much more likely that morphine took its nickname from the tune rather than the other way around. I have never met a fiddler above the beginner level who didnt know how to play some version of Soldier's Joy.


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