Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 06:16 PM

Steve - I'm reading your post carefully. You said "being presented in an imperfect way on national media when I know there are hundreds who could do a better job"

But - the devil's advocate would reply - there is no-one, not one single person on God's earth who CAN do a better job.

Why? Because Later did not want any of the hundreds who could do it better (though actually you mean DIFFERENTLY, if you did but know it). They wanted the Unthanks themselves to perform as the Unthanks, doing Unthanks material in the Unthank style. And that's what they got.

You seem to be perilously close to suggesting (forgive me if I'm wrong - but I'm getting a very strong impression) that because the girls come from a traditional music background and play SOME trad music in a traditional style, then somehow they are representing the values and material and musical styling that you, as a (very honourable and knowledgeable, I'm sure) champion of traditional music would espouse.

They do not represent anything - except themselves, and nor should they have to. They're doing their own thing, because it's a free country. Those trad songs are in the public domain, so after that it comes down to merit by force majeure - aka The Peter Principle. (Hell if that attitude had won out in the 60's we'd have had no revival, never mind all the rest that's come since).

Later did not say to themselves; 'Ok, we need to book a folk act - what band best represents the type of music that that fellow Steve Gardham calls folk. Aha! I know - The Unthanks. Let's book them because they are proper folk.'

If they had, it might be reasonable for you to get on the blower and say, hang on, I'd rather you booked someone else.

They booked the Unthanks because they wanted the Unthanks. THEY think they're good, and they believed the Later audience would like them - and I get the feeling that the audience did. I certainly did.

Yes we'd all like there to be a lot more slots on TV and radio where folk, folky, folkish, folk-like, hyphen-folk type acts could strut their stuff. But carping about who is 'allowed' to perform in the few slots that do exist is missing the point. We all have to work from the status quo. The Unthanks have - to their enormous credit - got to a place where they're on that shortlist - and none of us has any right to say they do not deserve to be. (Say we don't like them, yes, but not that they don't deserve to be there -see the difference?)

And you never know, maybe, the producers will say - hmm loved those Northumbrian Girls, lets see if there's anything else a bit more hard-core next time. You see? That would be good, wouldn't it? But if there had been no Unthanks, the producers might never have got into that vibe. It's a possibility, no?

Bedtime

Tom Cup Always More Than Half Full Bliss (note the surname - that's why they called us that back in the 12th century and it's stuck).

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 04:50 PM

Tom,
Whilst I totally defend your right to dis the dissers, negative criticism is an essential part of life. If it didn't exist the world would be in an even sorrier state than it is. Ten-year-olds performing brain surgery simply because they claimed they could do it.
I think you get my drift. Okay that's an extreme example but I know of a whole bunch of idiots in middle management at the moment who are extremely incompetent, but very confident and willing to say they can do anything just to get the job, and I'm sure many people here know of them as well as I come across cases on a weekly basis, and I'm retired!

To bring this closer to home I resent being told I shouldn't express negative opinions here when I see the music I love being presented in an imperfect way on national media when I know there are hundreds who could do a better job. Before you shoot me down again I know this might be due to the medium itself and as I've said some of the programmes have been very good. I'm not saying they were all below the best standard possible.

Please read this carefully. You keep misrepresenting my statements.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST, TB
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 03:45 PM

There was meant to be a BIG WINK at the end of that, but if fell off

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 03:43 PM

Ok, sorry if so, but I'm really not sure there are too many sacred cows on this site. Maybe there is some community protection around people (i.e. friends) who are known users of Mudcat - but that's only natural.

I suspect what does happen is that people interested (one way or another) in an act or issue are drawn to threads with that in the title, so the discussion quickly becomes cow-selective, if you see what I mean.

As most people prefer saying nice things to saying bad things in public, those with a negative opinion are liable to find themselves in a minority. That's only natural too. If you go on TalkAwhile or the Show of Hands forum you'll certainly find yourself in a BIG minority if you're negative about the Fairports or the Tousled Trio.

That said, I agree that voicing a negative opinion can be misconstrued to mean other negatives, which is precisely why I try never to do so. If I do, I try to anticipate all the the potential misunderstandings and deal with them pre-emptively in my post. Yes it makes my posts wordy, time-consuming to write and it makes me look pompous and pedantic at times, but hey ho. (I'm not like that in person, am I kids? )

Tomsk

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: caitlin rua
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 01:23 PM

Tom, you're over-analysing and reading way too much into what was only a general turn of phrase. You know as well as I do that some acts are favourites with enough people around this site that to find fault with them is to invite accusations of begrudging their success. And I find this offensive, to borrow the word another poster used. Are you saying that this doesn't happen? That's the only real point I was making. I don't need a lecture about something I wasn't trying to say.

Of course I know there are no official Mudcat Darlings (unless Ralphie wants the job). I think my point is pretty clear, that if you dare say you dislike certain artists you get labelled with a load of assorted character adjectives, and it makes a lot of people hesitant to express an opinion. Like it or not, it certainly happens.

If you don't like the word "darlings", fine, choose another. But that's quibbling over semantics and is beside the point.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 11:31 AM

Caitlin: "anytime or place that someone disses a Mudcat Darling."

There is no such thing as a Mudcat Darling. Every act or person that might be ever mentioned in a public forum (i.e every human soul) is someone's darling, and that someone (or even the person him or herself) is liable to read that mention, and if not take umbrage then wish to voice a contrary opinion. The more strongly worded the original criticism, the more likely it is that the rebuttal will be stronger still.

Sometimes I know the people being talked about well, sometimes a bit, sometimes they're just fellow performers or just fellow human beings. It makes no difference to me. If someone's being criticised in a public place, my instinct will be to defend them. And if the criticism seems unfair, my instinct will be criticise the criticism.

You see for me - and probably a lot of people - the question is this: Why would anyone ever want to criticise someone (semi-anonymously) on a public forum in the first place? It seems such a strange thing to want to do - so it's only natural that ulterior motives will appear high in the list of possible explanations - even when they're not in fact present.

It's like dis. If you diss people in dis place, the dissers disciples are going to dissent and diss you back.

Stands to reason.

Tom

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 10:56 AM

Usually theres a £100 signing up fee, and a strict vetting procedure - but seeing as its you Ralphie - we'll call it fifty quid and no questions asked. Use the Paypal point on my website. Do it in the next 24 hours and you get a free badge and certificate - could take up to five weeks to deliver however.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 10:55 AM

Have just re-read the Un-named Guest (NFA apologist) post above.
Not so much a chip on the shoulder, more like a bag of King Edwards!
I too have schlepped up and down the country for very little money, and very little thanks (not always, but there have been a few occasions!)
No artist has a divine right for media attention. As Tom Bliss says, If your face fits, trebles all round....If it doesn't....Ah Well.
No artist/muso/singer performs expecting that the "Meeja" will fawn all over them. The outlets are limited anyway, and with the dumbing down of all local Radio folk/whatever shows, the future is indeed looking bleak.
Maybe, I should have done the world a favour, and drowned myself at birth. Nobody would have had to put up with my pathetic noodlings for the past 40 years. I've worked it out. I have had my recordings played 5 times on National Radio, and about 10 on local Radio.
Not bad in a 35 year career.
Income?
Over 40 years....about 40K....thats £1000 per year! Result!
Royalties from the Radio stuff...Zilch.
Must go now, Have got a Yacht to investigate.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 09:51 AM

How can I become a "Mudcat Darling"? do you have to fill in a form or turn up for an interview?

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: caitlin rua
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 09:28 AM

Will... whoa... No, that statement was not directed at you (only the "some folks seem to have missed the sarcasm" bit was). After those words, the rest of my post was not aimed at any specific individual. Not you, not Nick either. It's not even restricted to this thread alone.

But this situation does exist, it happens repeatedly, and titling a thread "Why Begrudge Success" is making a judgment statement in itself, intentionally or not. The point I raised is a valid one, relevant to the topic. This vexed issue has come up over and over and over again, and it's fair to challenge it. People on internet forums are not mind readers. They cannot know what inner feelings underlie other people's criticisms. But that doesn't stop the accusations regarding motives flying thick and fast. Just take a trawl through some of the numerous threads where this battle has broken out. You don't even need a search term - you can identify them by their length.

I stand by what I said, because one can depend on charges of begrudgery, jealousy and all their unsavoury cousins appearing anytime or place that someone disses a Mudcat Darling. But, to turn an old phrase around, if the cap doesn't fit, you* needn't wear it.




* plural & general, not personal-address pronoun

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 09:11 AM

I was the guest - sorry!keep doing that! I am in agreement with everybody - I'm an idiot!

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Johnny J
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 08:58 AM

"Nor how quickly do some leap to conclusions that are neither there nor meant"

..but that's my point too, Nick. Isn't this what some people here have been doing?

Sorry if it seemed I was getting at you in particular and I also realise that you weren't specifically referring to me. Obviously other contributors here have also raised matters which don't apply to me either but, *may*, in relation to other individuals be relevant.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Nick
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 08:41 AM

Let's get one thing straight if I say that I don't particularly like the Unthanks it's not because I "begrudge" their success! To make that inference is so stupid, childish and immature it takes my breath away! The initiator of this thread should grow up.

Finally...just to make things crystal clear... just because I might not enjoy a particular artist's music(and say so) doesn't mean that I begrudge them their success nor that I am guilty of harbouring such views and prejudices which have been suggested by the opening poster and some others here. Such suppositions are "a nonsense" as well as being offensive.

Are you allowed to just not like someone's musical output, without being accused of "begrudging" something or other?

The Unthanks seem like very nice, sincere people. But what they do doesn't impress me. I don't resent their success, I'm not jealous or any other neurotic thing, they're just not my cup of tea. Is it permissible to merely express a negative opinion, based on the work the artists produce (not their Selves) without getting called names and cod-psychoanalised by a bunch of people who don't know me?

I started this thread NOT because of the Jools Holland thread. The Jools Holland thread was one of a number of threads over time which are particularly critical of artists with very little reference to anything objective; it's like people saying of others 'well they're just rubbish' or 'they have no talent' - schoolground stuff. I can't express it better than Will's last post which is similar to what I had started writing.

I didn't say that ALL people do this - perhaps I should have said 'why do some people...' but I didn't realise how ultra-sensitive some people here are. Nor how quickly do some leap to conclusions that are neither there nor meant. I opened the tread up as a discussion not as a flame to the one word review that some people have presumed this is about.

It isn't about whther you like someone or not. I'm desperately trying to work out what part of my contribution to the thread has anything to do with whether you like something or not; what part says that you shouldn't criticise people; what part was about name calling; what part is offensive? I'm tempted to mention caps fitting but I won't (but I have, d'oh!) because I'll be accused of being childish and immature again which cut me to the very heart of my being.

In starting a thread you have a very short subject line to try and write something pithy that will attract attention and encourage people to contribute. If I wanted to just know my own view then I'd talk to myself. I posed a question that I thought would get a reaction and it did. Some of it was even relevant to the question!

I believe that the phenomenon exists in many spheres of life so it would be strange if it were not also demonstrated here on Mudcat as it is a cross section of all sorts of people - ie some people hae an illogical reaction to success and need to rubbish that, based less on any objective grounds but purely because one can.



(From a different world. I have for a long time had a soft spot for Tottenham Hotspur FC who I first saw in 1962. I heard today that there are people starting a 'get rid of Harry campaign' to 'move the club on'. As a reaction to a manager who has moved the club from the bottom of the Premier division in Nov 2008 to their present position seems a reasonable example of the above phenomenon. Reactions like 'he's not the man for the job', 'he's not a big enough manager', 'he does't have the vision' are typical comments that are made in circumstances like this that mean absolutely nothing. It's their right to express the view though - I have no problem with that)

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 08:39 AM

'colossally ill-informed'

even if its colossally ill informed by a lifetime's bitter experience.

These people have been getting away with buggering up and blocking people's careers for too damn long as it is. What are you are hoping for = a place round the table of worthies. Bugger 'em and their for the most part lousy music.

And now someone's had a go at your friends - you say. Its been intimated that if dj's play NFA, they will have people complaining for weeks.

this is NFA who last year raced from one end of the country to another to provide (unpaid) the PA for some worthy traddy, get treated and talked to like skivvies by the great one for their pains.
The scene couldn't function without people like NFA - if you won't stand up for them Tom, what would you do for people who weren't your friends?
Another gem from folkiedave, ringing in my ears:-
', we are on a different planet. Clearly you have not been involved in protesting about the closure of local radio folk shows. Including your area. The very antithesis of getting airplay on local radio'.

made bugger all difference to anyone I know. paul Mackenzie at BBC Derby and used to invite me for his afternoon show to play live. they sacked Paul and I was never played on the country or folk programmes - to common for such refined palates.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Johnny J
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 08:28 AM

"Not liking an artist or performance and saying so is one thing (though I'd rather people said it in private or to the artist in a tactful, positive way). "

I agree with most of what you say especially with regard to the "suggestions" you mentioned.

However, surely the opinion of a listener, viewer, or audience member is just as valid as that of an official reviewer(journalist etc)whetehr favourable or not? Arguably, it ought to even more important what the actual public think?

As I've already said, I take the point about the one word comment but many paid reviewers can be extremely blunt and less than tactful too.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 08:12 AM

Ditto from me as from Will.

I personally never present my own negative subjective opinions on public forums (I do have them, but that's what mates are for) and I'm perplexed as to why anyone would ever want to. But that does not mean I don't think people should be allowed to voice those opinions, however critical or even begrudging.

What I do believe, as a matter of old fashioned manners if nothing else, is that no-one should ever voice an opinion in a public forum (knowing as they should do that their target is very likely to read it) unless they'd be willing to say exactly the same thing to that person's face (and I often get a distinct opinion this would not happen - which I think stinks to high heaven, frankly - so how's that for a subjective negative opinion?)!

So when the nibbling looks like heading towards a feeding frenzy I often offer positive counterbalancing views in support of fellow artists, (or just other human beings) - because I know what it's like up there (and getting there). Trust me it can hurt a lot more than you may realise - and I know people who've given up just because of unreasonable criticism which came at a bad time.

This is not really why I've raised objections in this thread, though.

What I personally object to, and usually speak out against whenever I encounter it, is unfair or inappropriate criticism (such as suggestions around selling out, underhand dealing, favouritism, abuse of The Tradition / public funds /airtime etc), when that opinion is presented as objective when it is in fact highly subjective (and often colossally ill-informed).

Not liking an artist or performance and saying so is one thing (though I'd rather people said it in private or to the artist in a tactful, positive way). Suggesting they should not be an artist at all - or be performing such and such in this or that arena is something else entirely.

Tom

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 07:37 AM

caitlin - I'm assuming that "I loathe having some stranger pronounce judgment on my character or motives in the light of their own prejudices, just because I don't like some artist they like" is partially or wholly directed at me.

There's no question of me pronouncing judgment on your character or motives. None whatsoever - and I'm sorry if you took my post that way. I'm merely trying to point out, as I have done on other threads similar to this, that a blunt statement of opinion - which you're entirely entitled to have - with no qualifying reasons or context, is in itself not very helpful. Johnny has himself said that, in retrospect, his one word summing-up of an act was not useful, and has qualified it to his own satisfaction. It's not a question of sacred cows.

To demonstrate what I'm trying to get at, over a year ago I opened a thread which questioned some of what I thought at the time was a bit of a media hype on Nick Drake. The thread is Nick Drake - hype and reality. I had qualms about opening such a thread for the very reasons (sacred cows, etc.) that you've mentioned above. Whether I opened the thread in a reasonable or unreasonable way is for you to judge - so I'm not averse to making a reasoned criticism of an artist by any means.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 07:35 AM

'As far as this in-fighting about "No Fixed Abode" Sorry, guys, I've never heard of them. Pleased that they (and others) are making a living out of music, good luck to them, I have a feeling that they wouldn't do it for me'

Don't worry Ralphie, just in case they didn't do it for you, the BBC are going to make sure you don't hear them.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: caitlin rua
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 07:10 AM

> Such suppositions are "a nonsense" as well as being offensive.

HEAR HEAR. Exactly the point I was trying to make above, though some folks seem to have missed the sarcasm.

I loathe having some stranger pronounce judgment on my character or motives in the light of their own prejudices, just because I don't like some artist they like. It can't possibly be that said artist has limits to the appeal of their music, oh no, we all have to be at fault for bad attitudes.

This happens way too much on this site, too many sacred cows that no one dares criticise, however reasonably and moderately. I know I'm not the only person who feels this way. But too often it's more than your hide's worth to say so.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Johnny J
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 06:51 AM

Although it's unlikely that The Unthanks will ever be my favourite band, I actually quite enjoyed some of their other numbers on the full show last night and "Queen of Hearts" was actually rather good.

However, I stand by my original opinion re the song featured on Tuesday. I didn't enjoy the vocals(on that particular song), the string arrangements were a bit over the top(my opinion), and the perfromance as a whole appeared very stilted. What's more, the band just didn't appear very comfortable about being there. Just my impression.(Yes, I realise that I should have given a fuller explanation at the time).

They certainly weren't the worst act on the show though. That honour goes to Ron Sexsmith! Overall, the full programme was much better especially the contributions from P.J. Harvey and Avery Sunshine.

Some comment was made earlier suggesting that insulting an artist(I didn't actually do that) was also an insult to the producer.
Well, perhaps, some criticism(not an insult) could arguably be levelled at producers and the "team" too in some of these programmes? After all, they are responsible for the environment where the artists perform and for selecting what the consider to be the highlights. So, it's not necessarily the fault of the acts on the show if they are not always shown in their best light.
Having said that, I'm sure that most of the time they do get things right.

Finally...just to make things crystal clear... just because I might not enjoy a particular artist's music(and say so) doesn't mean that I begrudge them their success nor that I am guilty of harbouring such views and prejudices which have been suggested by the opening poster and some others here. Such suppositions are "a nonsense" as well as being offensive.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 02:06 AM

Have just watched the JH show. Can't see what the problem is myself! I thought the Unthanks fitted in really well with the other acts...(Loved the Trumpet!)
Wasn't that keen on the Swedish girl, and Ringos video clip was a bit naff (Don't let drummers sing, whilst drumming!), and Polly Harvey was excellent, the South Wests answer to Bjork!
As far as this in-fighting about "No Fixed Abode" Sorry, guys, I've never heard of them. Pleased that they (and others) are making a living out of music, good luck to them, I have a feeling that they wouldn't do it for me though. As for begrudging success? Not me. I'm delighted when people I know get some media attention/win an award/make some dosh.
I certainly don't carp, when people I know are overlooked by "The Media Machine" After all, that's 90% of the artists I like!
As Will Fly says. What's the point in doing the same endless gig, month in month out, even if it pays the bills.
Some people get their 15 minutes of fame, most don't.
The Unthanks/Kate Rusby/Bellowhead/et al, seem to be in that zone. Well, good luck to them.
Here endeth the lesson!

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Richard from Liverpool
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 07:55 PM

And while I'm on the subject, PJ Harvey (also on the aforementioned Jools Holland) is bloody good too.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Richard from Liverpool
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 07:20 PM

Just listening to Unthanks on Jools Holland now. Really good stuff, I'm enjoying it. Lovely voices, interesting arrangement, and so nice to see folk done with something other than someone twanking a guitar.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 04:27 PM

'As for the complaints about Tony and una doing your radio programme, you really should have informed Tony. he might have got something from it. At the time I knew I wasn't right for your show, and told him so.

Still i think that says a lot about how far adrift folk radio is from folk clubs. I'm usually considered acceptable or pt uppable with for one song at least, in most folk clubs these more tolerant times.'

The only tyhing i can really think that i ought to add is this and this is in justice to the facts about No Fixed Abode and Jack Hudson.

In Derbyshire, whenever these people walked into a folkclub a thrill of excitement would run through the audience, because they knew they were in for some fabulous singing, Both Una Walsh and Jack Husdon have voices to die for.

And this is so at a variance with the blanket ignoring of their talents by the local BBC station.

I'm sorry your audience failed to appreciate them Dave and apparently bothered you for weeks about it. Jack is now to ill to perform - so none of his detractors in places high or low will bother you much in the forseeable future.

I despair for the future. Young Sanjay Brain is coming into the profession and has vowed to devote his life to it. His dad has brought him up with the recordings of the great coffee bar cowboys of folk - Brimstone, Lockran and Roger brooks. And he plays like a dream, 17 years old and already as good as the originals - I've tried explaining to him that nowadays its not even regarded as folk music in England. to no avail - he's going for it.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 04:01 PM

BTW - Ron,yes you are right on reflection. The initial premise was just that sucess is begrudged. It just seemed to turn into a bit of 'an English thing' at one time. I am lucky enough to be in a position to have seen both - albeit not too much on the west, sides of the pond - and yes, there is little difference. I can say quite categoricaly that sucess is not begrudged here as it is not there. Hope this helps.

Cheers

MP

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 03:55 PM

One Nun Dead!

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 03:53 PM

I fail to see anything in the Unthanks music or performance that makes Mudcat threads go into repeated meltdown.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 03:46 PM

Folks, life`s too short for this shit, imo. On this thread we have some wonderful writers and singers arguing about wonderful writers and singers with other wonderful writers and singers. In the vernacular, it don`t make no sense to me.

Al, it`s in the mail.

BM

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 03:11 PM

I don't, myself, recognise any defining line between the folk scene and the pop scene, or the pop scene and the blues scene, or the blues scene and the reggae scene. It's all a multi-hued picture. You can put a pin in one place and say, yep, they'd red all right, or over there, blue - but in-between there are all manner of pinks and mauves and purples. And that does for musical style, roots, methods, techniques - anything you want. The White Heather Club was Folk. The Clash were folk. The Coppers and the Kippers. Fairport. The Pogues and The Watersons. In each case different criteria, different circumstances, different objectives, different audience, different values. But all valid and good within their own terms.

All that matters is that people are not unfairly judged by inappropriate criteria. Playing trad informed music from a trad background in a pop or any other context is simply not selling out. It really isn't.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 02:03 PM

Tom,
Your descriptions tell me that actually there is only a fine line running between our two stances. I suppose what I'm really carping against is that the top of the folk scene for some acts is little removed from the pop scene in its machinations.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 06:08 AM

Lets just forget it. You think your stuff, I'll think mine. We all have to take the world as we find it. I speak from what my considerable experience has taught me - your considerable experience has taught you something else.

As for the complaints about Tony and una doing your radio programme, you really should have informed Tony. he might have got something from it. At the time I knew I wasn't right for your show, and told him so.

Still i think that says a lot about how far adrift folk radio is from folk clubs. I'm usually considered acceptable or pt uppable with for one song at least, in most folk clubs these more tolerant times.

Lucy and her family, i know quite well. She came quite often to the folkclub in Spondon that Denise and i used to go to. In Derby, we all wish her well.

Christ i hate getting old, i'm not in Derby any more! But in general I wish all the players on the folk scene well.

Sorry Dave, i stick by my guns. No names, no packdrill. I am not going to discuss individuals and their careers

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 04:38 AM

Performer A and Performer B have identical amounts of talent. Peformer A makes it on radio, TV, etc.("A is lucky, oh so lucky")* and B doesn't. Why? Tom's outlined many of the variables: being in the right place at right time or making the effort to being there, knowing the right people or making the effort to know the right people, fitting the current fashion or adapting yourself to fit it. I've known, and do know, many wonderful performers who will get little or no hearing in the professional music business, not only because of the variables above, but probably also because they don't have a burning ambition to make it whatever that entails - or personal circumstances have conspired to make it difficult. That's life.

Here's a personal anecdote:

The most money I've made on a regular, pay-the-rent basis, from music is while playing in a 1950s, hard-core rock'n roll trio from around 1982 to 1995. We had an agent and we played every social club, British Legion, Trades & Labour Club, Con Club, etc. in a hundred mile radius. We played dinner dances once a month at the Old Ship Hotel in Brighton. We did birthday parties and the occasional wedding reception. We did support stints on tours with people like Showaddywaddy and Bernie Flint (anyone remember Bernie Flint?). And - best of all - we played for unreconstructed, middle-aged Teds and their wives in the Swan in Worthing. This where we saw some of the best jiving ever to be seen - and received the straightest and most up front criticism if we hadn't played something quite right!

All this was at a time when '50s rock'n roll (nothing later than 1961...) was deeply unfashionable. We got by because, even though I say it myself, we were bloody good. In fact, we were shit hot - we looked great, we sounded great - and we put it across.

Why did it end for me? Several reasons. Doing the same music solidly for 13 years with little variation became a drag. Then there were the tours - as Charlie Watts said about touring with the Stones: 10% playing and 90% hanging around. Then were the Showcases! If you don't know what a Showcase is, it's a freebie put on for potential bookers by agents. The agents book a venue, bring entertainers from their stable to perform one after another, while the bookers get wined and dined and take notes. Utterly dispiriting and boring - like being a whore sitting in a window for hour after hour with no trade. The last straw was when our agent got permission for us to use the name of a long defunct but well-known band (because the drummer had played with them briefly). So - we were going to change our name, step up to a higher level, become part of the 'you-know-the-name-of-these-has-beens' circuit - playing themed rock'n roll weekends at holiday camps in midwinter, etc. In short, taking us away from the roots of what we were doing.

I quit - with relief and joined a Memphis/Stax-style funk band in Brighton. No money but back to the roots. So, just another showbiz story of Mr. Average, the jobbing musician. But - and here's the point: I needn't have quit. I could have pushed and pushed again, made some more contacts, switched agents, got on the blower to this person and that person, talked the talk...

And, do you know - I couldn't be arsed.

*Gilbert and Sullivan

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Woodsie
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 04:12 AM

I agree totally with Nick about Elton John - I can't stand his music/image etc - but the man DID pay his dues in the early years - working the club circuit as a band member, playing as a session man and composing music, for years before making it big. The man writes his own music and plays it well. I too, saw him in 1970 when he was just beginning to be accepted by the then hippie/alternative rock scene as the next big thing. John Peel at the time championed him and said "One day this man will be a household name" people laughed. When Elton made it. The same hippies that had cheered him at the London Roundhouse turned their backs and snarled "Crap"

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 03:46 AM

Goodness me.

Steve - ok, but please bear in mind that noticing Emperors Garments is as subjective as any other opinion, and it's not shared by all. You don't happen to like some of the 'top' acts - but that doesn't make them fools or charlatans - which is, of course, the point of Hans Christian Andersen's fable. You've every right to feel that your opinion trumps that of Jools Holland, Later's producers, lots of other artists, other folk experts, and many thousands of fans, but it doesn't mean those artists are in fact nekkid. If we think they're good, then they are. Period.

As for believing one's own hype, I think most performers will tell you they have to manage an uncomfortably dualistic opinion around that. You do have to nurture self-belief. If you don't carry on as though you're good you'll never get any gigs. And if you didn't believe that the audience will think you're good, you'd never step on a stage. Yet at the same time you're secretly ginning to yourself, thinking, as you lurch into the wings with the applause ringing in your ears; hee hee - fooled 'em again!

The Peter Principle really does rule - albeit with various glass ceilings on the way up that can only be broken by good fortune coupled with huge effort. And once through each level, no-one expects their luck to last. You just make the best of it while you're there, expecting any minute to crash back down - and I know life-long, successful artists who still feel exactly that.

Al - this is tricky, because I'm having trouble following your logic. Tony and Una are good friends of mine too, and they are indeed excellent at what they do. Una has a really really lovely voice, and Tony's a very fine guitar player. They work damn hard and deserve much more success. But they're not being deliberately overlooked, they've just not had that kind of good fortune so far (but health, happiness and singing for a living is good fortune too, no?)

Making records that get played on the radio is a fine art - and even then luck is a major player. I get lots of plays on local radio, but never found the formula for Harding. That's partly about my repertoire, partly about my profile, partly about the way I managed my career but probably mainly about my voice - which is just not Radio 2. No point in being bitter about it. I'm just hugely grateful that two years into retirement I still get a decent PRS check every quarter from the radio plays I still do get.

The village hall thing is not a gift from some Emperor's Aide at the arts council. It's a spectacularly challenging game - in direct competition with jazz bands, puppeteers, novelists, circus acts, classical quartets - you name it, which requires all sorts of skills that great musicians don't automatically possess - around creating product, marketing, branding, pitching, negotiating - things I happen to be quite good at, so I've done a lot of halls. If T and U want some advice on what to do, tell them to give me a bell. I'd be glad to help.

You seem to believe that there is a conspiracy of gatekeepers who decide who wins and who looses. Well, there is, but they are subject to exactly the same constraints as the artists. They all - at the many different levels and tasks they engage in - want to be successful if they can get away with it, whether they are club bookers, producers, record company A+R, magazine editors. They're all looking for good, worthwhile music to feature and support. Anyone can have a go, and the same Peter Principle applies.

It's still about being in the right place at the right time - hearing that demo, or seeing that great new young act on the side stage at a festival.

In general, you have to be good, canny AND lucky. You need to put yourself in the way of good fortune. Hard work earning a crust and impressing people is seldom enough - it might pay the bills, but...

Malleable youngsters? We've all been one of those - but we learn. Questionable types? I refer you to the response I made above to Steve: Remember the difference between subjective and objective opinion. To do otherwise only brings bitterness.

Tom

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 03:36 AM

Al, we are on a different planet. Clearly you have not been involved in protesting about the closure of local radio folk shows. Including your area. The very antithesis of getting airplay on local radio.

Village hall tours? No idea how they work. My friend lives in a village and they have never had a folk tour - though they do get other acts.

Village Hall Tours are big in Scotland of course but they employ mainly Scottish artists. The Arts Council there does give money for folk music not like England.

Mike Harding? Well Mike recently played a relatively unknown young singer song writer called Lucy Ward from Derby so he is hardly ignoring new talent. I played an interview with her well over a year ago.

And since you have mentioned Christy Moore a couple of times - at his last gig in Sheffield he mentioned that Malcolm Fox - who ran a folk club in Sheffield kept on booking him when he couldn't get a gig in Dublin. I suspect he could say the same about the two folk clubs in Hull one of which I was involved in. We booked him when he couldn't get gigs in Dublin too.

And neither of those folk clubs got a public subsidy either.

So Tony and Una are making a living now - and just need recognition.

I know which feeds the family.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 10:19 PM

Of course its not really financial help people like Tony and Una need. Its not really what the Beeb has to give - its that recognition.

A publisher phoned me up from Germany a few years ago - having traced me through my website. Therss loads of stuff on the website, but the one thing he fastened upon was the fact that I'd got an award from the BBC. Now Sooz was there the night i got the award - it could have been me, her or a guy with a noseflute and a tambourine. I was the lucky one that night.

this is the favour that is within the remit of the top guys - prestige. And they do hand it out to some some suspiciously malleable youngsters and some frankly questionable types.

And you hear them chatting together backstage, about the time they played Sydney folk festival, or was it san Francisco, or was it that little one in malibu.

It would never have fitted in with my lifestyle - with a disabled wife to take care of. Jack hudson's too ill amd roger Brooks is dead....but Tony, Una... they deserve it.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 10:01 PM

Tony and Una are No Fixed Abode

http://musicnfa.webs.com/biog.htm

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 08:47 PM

Who are Tony & Una - never heard of them?!

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 08:30 PM

'Hiring low quality talent is not the way to do that!'

Says everything about the pompous arrogance of the middle class folkies and nothing bout the facts of the matter.


No bother at all Dave. Tony and Una jealously guard their reputation which has been painstakingly put together without any help from the many people who were paid from the public purse to help with the development of folk talent. Arts council Commissions, tours of village halls, the paid gigs at folk fetivals, radio plays by Harding, support from their local BBC station - Tony and Una saw none of it. Money from the public purse.

When Tony did your show he played low quality talent such as myself, Jack Hudson and No Fixed abode and some other people - I think Christy moore - but I couldn't swear. tony will have a list of what he did.

But if your listeners didn't know that Jack, myself, and NFA have been staunch supporters of folk clubs for years - and have been there on the scene. Doesn't this say something about folk radio. You really have got into state where half the folkscene is being ignored totally - and has frankly buggered off to leave you stewing in your own esoteric juice.

Incidentally Commode Man, Tony and Una DO get bookings. This is their most busy and commercially successful month they have ever enjoyed. they just get no recognition for being one of the hardest working folk duos in the country - no major reviews, no plays on the publicly funded radio.

No recognition for having (from necessity and a deep committment to folk music)developed a craft whereby they can take folkmusic into places that none of the current folk festival headliners could follow.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 07:46 PM

'They "bet" the success of their folk clubs, folk festivals and so on on a bunch of lesser talents. For the life of me I cannot see why people would want to do that.'

Well I think access to public funds has a certain amount to do with it.

Well I think you are seriously off your trolley. What public funds? A folk club with public funds? Some of the bigger folk festivals might get some help with things like road closures not being charged for and other payment in kind. Larger festivals do get grants of course - but they are regarded as an attraction to bring in people. Hiring low quality talent is not the way to do that!

I went to the Sheffield Session Festival over Easter. Public funds - nil.

On the Saturday I went to a folk club. Public funds - nil. I am off to a folk club next week. Public funds - nil.

I am off to Shepley Festival later this month. Public funds - nil.

I have belonged to a dance team for over thirty years. We have been all over Europe and also to South America. Public funds - nil.

I don't know who is getting this public subsidy Al, but I can assure you I have never seen a penny of it. And yes I have applied.

I have helped to organise or been a part of the Sheffield City Giants for over ten years. They belong to the City of Sheffield. In three trips to Spain, two other trips to Europe and a trip to Canada - all representing the City of Sheffield - have a guess Al. You got it Al. Fuck all.

But the logic of putting on lesser talent to get public subsidy still escapes me. You obviously don't think much of the public.

And do not bother Tony and Una on my behalf. I only mentioned it two years later because you accused me of bullying you. People may have forgotten that there was another side to the story. The complaints were about their choice of music. They can probably tell you who they played.

But I accept full responsibility for that. I know better now.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 07:44 PM

And as for you No Fixed Commode....you comments are worthy of only one answer......

Plop!

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 07:35 PM

I can't really add anything here as Tom has expressed many of my views on this so eloquently.

In the end it is a combination of luck and talent that results in success - fortunately those musicians on the folk scene who have reached wider audiences have talent in abundance - unlike some others whose luck has been more to the fore

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Alan whittle
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 07:09 PM

sorry that was me.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 07:08 PM

'Al - the idea that BBC producers choose people of lesser talent deliberately, and get away with it because it's public funds is beneath you'

Er no! Its what i believe.

We live in an island with people who are musically sensitive and speak a very expressive language, which contains all sorts of variations and rhythms.

If they played the work of people who expressed themselves naturally then the game would be up. Lots of people would do it write and sing songs, quite unaffectedly. that's why Ewan was so down on Donovan - he thought every Tom, Dick and Harry would be horning in on his game.

A corollary of this is that people would realise that the word traditional come from the Latin - traditio - I hand over. Most traditional English music from Cecil Sharp's time to the present day has just been handed over from one gang of middle class twonks to another.

So what do they do.. they say we sing with a mid Atlantic accent. ignoring the fact that England isn't really very far into the North Atlantic. Its certainly not South - its somewhere round the middle.

If England were situated in the middle of the 19th century martin carthy would have the right accent. sadly not the case.

Anyway, I heard you sing at lambley - you don't sing in a weird voice - why are YOU sticking up for them?

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 07:08 PM

'Al - the idea that BBC producers choose people of lesser talent deliberately, and get away with it because it's public funds is beneath you'

Er no! Its what i believe.

We live in an island with people who are musically sensitive and speak a very expressive language, which contains all sorts of variations and rhythms.

If they played the work of people who expressed themselves naturally then the game would be up. Lots of people would do it write and sing songs, quite unaffectedly. that's why Ewan was so down on Donovan - he thought every Tom, Dick and Harry would be horning in on his game.

A corollary of this is that people would realise that the word traditional come from the Latin - traditio - I hand over. Most traditional English music from Cecil Sharp's time to the present day has just been handed over from one gang of middle class twonks to another.

So what do they do.. they say we sing with a mid Atlantic accent. ignoring the fact that England isn't really very far into the North Atlantic. Its certainly not South - its somewhere round the middle.

If England were situated in the middle of the 19th century martin carthy would have the right accent. sadly not the case.

Anyway, I heard you sing at lambley - you don't sing in a weird voice - why are YOU sticking up for them?

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 06:50 PM

"Bearing in mind that this thread was started mentioning young and new BritFolk how has it come to your statement that being west of the pond is somehow better? Not saying that it isn't - I have been there and loved it - but I feel extremely lucky that I am in England and experiencing the resurgence that the OP mentioned with such bands as the Unthanks, Mumford and Sons, Bellowhead etc. As you will know if you read my earlier comments, they are not all my cup of tea, but at least they are making their mark and it is very exciting:-)"


I'm not in a position to accurately compare the two countries.   The inference of the initial thread was that there was a faction that "begrude success" of young performers.   You can tell me if that is the case or not, hopefully it was just misrepresented in the initial statements.

Here in the U.S., for the most part, I am seeing a warm embrace to the newcomers that are making waves.   The other night, a network TV series called "The Voice" featured Rebecca Loebe, an artist who plays the contemporary folk scene here in the U.S. When I spoke with her last fall, she was bascially living in her car and traveling the country doing house concerts and whatever gig she could pick up. To see her on national TV was outstanding, and the folk community is strongly supporting her.

Yes, there is a faction of died-in-the-wool folkies that won't accept contemporary singer-songwriters coming out of a folk tradition, but they are the minority from what I see.   We too are enjoying hearing our "new kids" taking up the mantle, and seeing groups like Mumford & Sons (one of my favorite CD's of last year) is wonderful. I hope we have another "British invasion" because I think you have some amazing performers, and I hope our audiences will enjoy them as well.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 06:27 PM

Tom
I don't think marriage is relevant here. They are obviously ticking all the right boxes to maintain a high profile. I just hope they don't start believing their own hype.

There was a lot of banter earlier on about taking clothes off. IMO there are already too many naked ones among the top acts at the moment and I'm with those who have spotted the Emperor's new clothes.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 05:58 PM

Sorry Steve - I read your remark as saying The Unthanks had 'sold out' which would be as silly as saying my deep green mate who lives off grid in Otley and is as committed to sustainability as they come, and is now running a small business on low margins putting retrofit interior insulation into people's houses has sold out.

I read your comment on the other thread about people being pushed too far by their managers. When that happens they don't usually marry them.

Al - the idea that BBC producers choose people of lesser talent deliberately, and get away with it because it's public funds is beneath you. They just have a different opinion to you, (which happens to be in tune with a majority view - they're very careful in their research) and that's what happens in a free society. If your chums were in the right pace at the right time - who knows. But most of us are in that soup, and it's not the end of the world. Some of us go on to make political campaigning films about peak oil, and write musicals, and get asked to start up new schools of ecological design by major universities - which wouldn't have happened if we'd been successful enough to get onto Later. You see? No point in being bitter. Seize the day and have fun

Tom

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,No Fixed Commode
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 05:21 PM

You may think Tony and Una are the bees knees Al, but maybe the reason that they don't get bookings isn't because the mafia keeps them out. Maybe it's because of their cheesey, end of the pier, big haired soft rock. One man's musical geniuses are another's vision of music hell. That's just life.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 05:14 PM

Nice to see you, Ron - You don't get on here often enough nowadays but I ask about the comment -

I think we are lucky on this side of the Atlantic, I experience more acceptance of both the trad and contemporary. Support of young performers is also highly encouraged in these parts!    The future does look bright!

Bearing in mind that this thread was started mentioning young and new BritFolk how has it come to your statement that being west of the pond is somehow better? Not saying that it isn't - I have been there and loved it - but I feel extremely lucky that I am in England and experiencing the resurgence that the OP mentioned with such bands as the Unthanks, Mumford and Sons, Bellowhead etc. As you will know if you read my earlier comments, they are not all my cup of tea, but at least they are making their mark and it is very exciting:-)

Good luck to you and your folk revival - Fleet Foxes to mention but one!

MP