Who can't sing? - 2011

Subject: RE: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 16 May 11 - 11:26 AM

In the folk world we are 90% entertainers I would suggest - thank goodness! (and its the notional 10% I personally find boring).

and (OP):

many (most?) people who go to folk clubs to be entertained by music or a music based folk acts (eg. more patter than music) want a good time

I dream of going to a folk club and seeing a performer who just gets on with the songs. The ideal: no patter, no entertainment, no would-be WMC comedians, no jokes, no attempts to engage with the audience. Instead, a few mumbled words (at most) by way of an intro and an attentive audience who don't need winning over because they've gone there to hear the music.

Subject: RE: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: Elmore
Date: 16 May 11 - 10:57 AM

" I was born this way, I had no choice, I was born with the gift of a golden voice." - Leonard Cohen

Subject: RE: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 15 May 11 - 02:59 PM

Rewinding to Bobert......

It's all about being an entertainer... Everything else is just details... Singing included... .

Can we identify two different reasons why someone might be on a pro / semi pro stage. One is as a 'musician', but "playing" a 'voice' rather than a violin or sax. You are reproducing someone elses work as near as possible to how it was intended. You're simply the mode by which that audience is receiving that work.

In this case you'd be expected to be accompished within the context of the musical genre, as the cellist in the orchestra.

If you're singing as an entertainer then Bobert's comments apply.

In the folk world we are 90% entertainers I would suggest - thank goodness! (and its the notional 10% I personally find boring).

Ian F

Subject: RE: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: Crane Driver
Date: 06 May 11 - 05:44 AM

I think it was G K Chesterton who wrote something to the effect that society started to go downhill when people stopped singing together and started paying professionals to sing for them, simply on the absurd grounds that they did it better. Many people (including some music teachers) seem to think that singing (and music in general) is the preserve of rare folk with a 'gift' and if you can't do it right first time, you 'can't do it'. I believe that anyone who sufficiently wants to do so, can learn to make music. However, I do accept that you have to find your instrument, and the voice is just one amongst many.

Many more people can sing for fun than believe they can, but if you are going to take money for singing, you should aim for sufficient proficiency to avoid startling the horses. Entertaining the audience, and involving the audience, is more important to me than showing off your vocal technique.

Andrew

Subject: RE: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 06 May 11 - 05:13 AM

Well, some singers, for example Lord Invader, have voices that wouldn't be considered conventionally "good" or "attractive", but their voices are good because they suit their genres and blend well with their other skills, like a way with words which helps them put across the content of the songs well. Probably a little, off-topic, but kind of related.

Subject: RE: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 06 May 11 - 04:51 AM

John P: I can't carry a tune in a bucket. It's not for lack of trying, learning, practicing, etc. I've been a performing musician for 40 years, play several instruments, have a good ear (I can hear when people, including me, are out of tune). I have worked with multiple teachers and have been in bands with and been advised by many very good vocalists

I'm in a very similar situation. I *can* sing some things, in a very narrow vocal range, and stay in tune *sometimes*, but it's very limited and almost unpredictably variable. What comes out well one time come out as out of tune the next time. And I *know* I'm doing it at the time.

For the last year to 18 months, having NEVER sung in public since I was 15, I *have* been singing in sessions and singarounds. I choose the songs I do carefully and will switch into instrumetnal only mode if, that evening, I feel as if I can't carry a tune. I even sing unaccompanied sometimes, and find that I usually hold the tune BETTER that way (again, though, a very limited set of tunes with a narrow range).

But there's no way I'm ever going to be anything other than "tolerable, on a good day...on a bad day, don't even bother".

Genie: in my case it's absolutely NOT that I "can't tell when I'm hitting the right notes and when I'm not". I absolutely CAN tell... I just can't make them come out right if they've "decided" not to.

Subject: RE: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 06 May 11 - 04:33 AM

I like a happy mix. I should say that I am more inclined to pay better attention to the story, message of the song and the feeling conveyed by the singer, if the voice is not so perfect.

Subject: RE: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: Genie
Date: 06 May 11 - 04:30 AM

John, I worked with a fine instrumental musician in Seattle a while back who had the same 'syndrome" as you: i.e., he could play songs by ear on guitar or bass, etc., but when I would try to help him learn to sing in tune, it was as if he really couldn't tell when he was hitting the right notes and when he wasn't. I don't know if he could have overcome whatever obstacle was there, but he basically gave up and just went back to jus doing instrumentals.


I guess you could really say of him that, at least at the stage of vocal skill he had attained, he really "couldn't sing" -- in tune, anyway. But even if I accept that, cases like his - and yours - seem very few and far between.

Genie

Subject: RE: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: John P
Date: 05 May 11 - 06:13 PM

I can't carry a tune in a bucket. It's not for lack of trying, learning, practicing, etc. I've been a performing musician for 40 years, play several instruments, have a good ear (I can hear when people, including me, are out of tune). I have worked with multiple teachers and have been in bands with and been advised by many very good vocalists. I can play a complicated accompaniment on the guitar or piano while singing with great expressiveness and phrasing. I know what note I want to sing and can hear it in my head, but that note doesn't come out of my mouth. My ex-wife, who used to work with people with brain injuries, thinks I had an injury when I was a kid that took out a narrow slice of functionality.

I, too, am tired of people telling me that everyone can sing and that I can learn. Yes, I can sing. No, I can't sing in tune.

Subject: RE: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: PoppaGator
Date: 05 May 11 - 03:06 PM

I'm in the US, and I've heard plenty of stories from people who were told by teachers, parents, etc., that they "couldn't sing."

Also, I've encountered people who are absolutely sure that they "can't" sing who do NOT have tales of woe about being told they lacked the ability. Many folks seem to grow up with the notion that singing is just too difficult or too alien an activity for them to even attempt. They seem to have picked up this attitude by osmosis from their families/communities as a general assumption ~ that most normal people can't sing, that singing is just not something that "we" do. There does not seem to be a single traumatic event when the person was singled out as unable to sing.

Subject: RE: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: Marje
Date: 05 May 11 - 01:21 PM

It's so sad to keep hearing about people who were told by their music teachers that they couldn't sing. I can't think of any other school subject where this would happen - would an English teacher say, "You can't spell!" or an art teacher say, "You can't draw!"? Would a piano teacher say, "You're rubbish at piano"?

Of course not - they'd consider it part of their job to make sure that pupil learned to spell or to draw or play piano to the best of their ability, even if they were never going to excel. Even in sport, where some pupils are of very limited potential, they are usually given the opportunity to enjoy the activity and participate at some level without being told they're a total waste of space. Singing should be treated with the same respect and sensitivity.

Incidentally, is this just a British thing or does it happen in the US too?

Marje

Subject: RE: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 05 May 11 - 07:42 AM

On the whole I prefer a singer who can keep in tune but I also like a singer that is interesting and can entertain. It depends on personal taste and sometimes age, what is one man's meat is another's poison. My parents who are in their 80s for example cannot stand it when a singer has to shout, whereas there are times when it goes with the song and it has to be expressed with that kind of emotion from time to time.

The kind of singing that I am getting increasingly tired of is the assembly line of young female singers who sing in a middle tone who insist on playing with the notes in Mariah Carey/Whitney Houston mode to hit the notes. Instead of interesting it makes each one sound exactly the same as the last even if the singer is talented there is nothing unique about it.

Subject: RE: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 04 May 11 - 06:12 PM

A singer at my local folk club was told by his school music teacher that he couldn't sing (the school music teacher sang with the BBC Symphony Chorus) but we enjoy his songs anyway.

Even though I appreciated Dylan's songs as a teenager I didn't appreciate his singing style or the introspective nerdy singer songwriter singing for themselves and not the audience load of performers that resulted...

Kitty

Subject: RE: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: mouldy
Date: 04 May 11 - 05:43 PM

The "guest" up there was me sans cookie!

I used to sit in front of an old guy in church who had obviously been a bit of a singer in his time (church choir, I guess). Unfortunately he'd gone a bit deaf... He still sang fairly well, but it wasn't quite the same pitch as everyone else and the organ. Sadly, he's no longer with us.

Andrea

Subject: RE: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 04 May 11 - 04:53 AM

I think sincerity is very important when singing. I often sit next to an old man in church, and during the hymns he growls away, mostly off-key. But somehow his aged voice raised in praise moves me deeply, I feel quite choked to think he has sung thus for many decades in the same pew, it's as if an old gnarled oak tree is singing.

Subject: RE: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: Marje
Date: 04 May 11 - 04:50 AM

I had a school music teacher who had sung professionally, and she used to say that girls' voices also "break". Even though there isn't the huge change in pitch that boys experience, they still have to learn to manage a whole new grown-up woman's voice. So a girl who has sung sweetly as a child may struggle with the more complex tones of her adult voice, while others (as in my case) who had weak, childish voices may find they can sing much better when the new, womanly voice arrives.

My comments of the rest of what's being discussed: if a singer can't keep in tune, I simply can't relax and enjoy their singing, no matter how clever their patter, arrangement or accompaniment may be. Out-of-tune singing just grates on my ears like nails on a blackboard, and a singer who emits a tuneless or unpleasant sound is not something I can enjoy. I'm not saying that such people shouldn't or can't sing - they should learn to sing better, which almost anyone can do. It just need a bit of attention, in the same way as playing and tuning an instrument does.

I suppose there are a small number of people who really can't hold a tune, but Dylan isn't one of them. I have heard early recordings of him singing perfectly in tune. He chose and developed his particular singing style to suit the delivery of his poetic his lyrics, and got away with it, but he's a bit of a one-off. He has a lot to answer for when others hold him up as an example. Trying to sound like Dylan (or hoping you sound like Dylan because you know you're not in tune) will not work.

Marje

Subject: RE: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: GUEST
Date: 04 May 11 - 04:26 AM

I used to sing in school choirs when quite young, (I was told I was a "rather breathy soprano") and I swear my voice "broke" at some point.

I was told at a workshop a few years ago that I had a "voice" - but not a good one, and that I should find stuff to sing that is within my (limited) range. I don't sing often, but I do now and again, and I always seem better able in a chorus than on my own. Sometimes if I get it right at the start, it carries through in a not-too-painful way... and usually in quite a low register. (It's been worse after the couple of viruses I had earlier this year).

I would never sing much else than "ditties" on my own, as I have too much respect for other folks' ears! I'm more inclined to do a recitation.

I remember being at a party some years ago, and delivering "William Brown" whilst out on the patio. Straight afterwards a beautiful bass voice came from the room behind me, singing one of what I call the "parlour" type of traditional songs. It turned out he was a principal bass with Opera North. Now THAT was a voice, but the style of song that it would suit was just as limited as mine to some extent.

At the sessions I attend (largely music, but we do have singing as well) there is a young lad of 16 who has the most amazing bass-baritone voice. He hasn't quite learnt to relax into the songs yet, but he has immense power there. He's about to go to a performing arts course. His dad's a handy singer too.

The thing that gets my goat with singers is when they "put on" an accent for a song which doesn't suit them. Not all Irish songs need to be sung in "Oirish", for example...but that's only my opinion.

Andrea

Subject: RE: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: Bobert
Date: 03 May 11 - 10:35 PM

It's all about being an entertainer... Everything else is just details... Singing included...

B~

Subject: RE: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 03 May 11 - 09:46 PM

A lot more good sense from Genie....

Subject: RE: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: Genie
Date: 02 May 11 - 02:04 AM

That's a great way of expressing it, Falcon: "they doubtless keep the pigeons from defecating on their newly washed windows during shower-time." LOL

This particular guy has power and resonance in his voice to die for, and he "carries a tune" perfectly. It's just that a) he tries too hard to emulate Ian Tyson's style (resulting in something that sounds contrived and weird) and b) he's a bit hard of hearing, so he belts it out much louder than is required or even desireable,
The point being: there's a difference between having great "pipes" and knowing how to sing well.

Subject: RE: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: GUEST,The Falcon - guest
Date: 01 May 11 - 11:43 PM

How very true, Genie. I know of that affliction - they either feel the voice must be continuously vibrato, or have a twang totally off the continent. I too know people who can hit notes - rich, strong notes, yet have no clue as to how to string them together. Musical dyslexia perhaps? In any case they doubtless keep the pigeons from defecating on their newly washed windows during shower-time.

Subject: RE: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: Genie
Date: 01 May 11 - 11:31 PM

mg and Falcon, yes, there are some people who sing so badly (notice I didn't say "who can't sing") -- either by virtue of being off key or by having voices that grate -- that they can ruin even a group sing. Especially if their voices are also loud.

(I have a friend who was once told - quite astutely - by a voice coach, "You have a great voice but you don't know how to use it." This man could be a wonderful singer if he would drop some affectations he's picked up, trying to sound like some other singers, and if he didn't sing so loud that he drowns out most of the others. But he does use those affectations and does overpower other voices, and it has sometimes messed up a good group sing.)

But it's a matter of degree. A lot of people are told "You can't sing" just because their voices sound more like Bob Dylan or Nancy Sinatra than Gordon Bok or Judy Collins. There are many people whom few people would ever care to hear in concert or pay to hear at a pub but who nevertheless can be good participants in singarounds or other informal gatherings when they sing a song or two.

There's a vast range between "makes my ears bleed" and "isn't ready for Carnegie Hall."

Subject: RE: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: GUEST,The Falcon - guest
Date: 01 May 11 - 10:57 PM

Sorry, but "singing" involves enunciationn, projection, and the ability to produce notes in a melodic arrangement. Even rap and jazz have their own characteristic metre. House music is a bipolar wasp trapped near the tympanum. All this nonsense about "feel" is a shared confessional of the tone-deaf, who'd be just as happy downing their multitude of ales on a traffic island at rush hour, or who find the necessity of appreciation a chore because it interrupts the eternal spring of 'wisdom and wit' issuing from between their lips. "Who can't sing?" What a specious question.

Subject: RE: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 01 May 11 - 08:14 PM

Shallow me would rather hear someone with a good voice but no emotion singing rather than someone with great emotion and sincerity but a bad voice. Now if someone had an OK voice that would be different. But bad voices hurt my ears. I can't help it. I think it is great if they sing and have fun but there is a time and a place for it. Like there is a time and a place for poor baseball players like myself to play baseball...I would ruin a real game. Some bad voices can ruin a real group singing. If they are bad and very quiet they can be absorbed but sometimes they are bad and loud and love the spotlight. There should be spotlights for them. I don't know a way around this. Sometimes there is a group I would love to sing with and one person can wreck it. I could name names. This is my hobby and I like music for the sound of it, not the emotion, not the group spirit. The sound. If the sound is off I do not enjoy it period. Although I would be glad to meet separately with people for the purpose of supporting unpleasant sounding people. By that I do not mean weak. I mean either way off key or sometimes people can sing on key but just have voices that are painful to listen to. And I am not saying that I am that great but I have a quiet voice so no matter what I do it is probably not going to be too disturbing.

Subject: RE: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: Genie
Date: 01 May 11 - 05:47 PM

I grew up with my mom always saying "I can't carry a tune." And, even though she sang the hymns in church with the rest of the congregation, it generally seemed she was pretty accurate in her assessment of her singing ability. Then sometime after we kids had 'flown the nest" and now she was "an old lady," she seemed to stop worrying about how she sounded, stopped trying to hold back her voice for fear of not sounding good, and, lo and behold, she CAN carry a tune!   

Things like breath control, pitch recognition & control, and tonal coloration can be taught, though some learn more quickly than others.   But if you can tell when someone else is off-key, you're obviously not "tone deaf," even if you have trouble telling where the right notes are when you try to sing. Getting over self-consciousness, singing frequently, and not trying to hold back your voice all really help improve your sining.   And group singing (even duets) can help get over the hurdles.

So, DLT, even if you sound like a strangled cat, you still may be singing. (Heck, Adam Lambert often sounds like a cat whose tail has just been stepped on! As do quite a few rockers.)

And, Desi, a couldn't agree more about the 'artists' who seem to be more concerned with instrumental or vocal 'gymnastics' (Mariah Carey, anyone?) than with interpreting lyrics or a sharing a melody that the audience might go away humming and not be able to get out of their heads.    Often a rather ordinary voice, with a good story to tell & the ability to convey the emotion of the song will be much more entertaining and memorable than someone who can just do fancy stuff with their fingers and/or their voice.

Subject: RE: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 01 May 11 - 02:55 PM

We've found a good pitch in this debate all ready, despite a hastily (lazily?) produces title - apols Genie.,

I support three singarounds a week, all with the ethos "everyone should be able to have a go".

A little story: this afternoon friends and myself were singing at a church garden party. A young girl came up to ask if we could sing a particular song.

My colleague I was sharing that spot with, Ellen, asked her how it went. She sang quite a bit of the chorus. Ellen then asked the young girl, Megan, if she would like to sing it herself.

The young girl said "I can't sing". Ellen put the mic in front of the girl and we all quietly encouaged her to try it again for us. Megan sang a whole and everyone clapped.   Megan told us afterwards. was only 6.

I think most people likely to be in an audience are much more supportive of encouraging new singers to have a go than a lot of folk club organizers.

Subject: RE: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 08:21 AM

Very true. once read that scientists had rated Celine Dion's voice technically the best in the world, yet I can't bear to listen to one note from her lips. bob Dylan most agree has a very poor singing voice, yet he is so listenable to. With top instrumentalists I think it's the case that the better the get technically the go for ever more complicated tunes which usually tend to very long and not too tuneful in a catchy sense, and your average audience out for a fun night prefer something quicker and snappier. I'm just glad in that case to be just average ;)

Subject: RE: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: terrier
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 08:06 AM

If you can talk, you can sing. A 'good' voice for singing doesn't always make a good singer and not having a 'normal?' voice doesn't mean one can't learn how to sing. If you want to sing and can't figure out yourself the best way to use what you've got, find a sympathetic teacher to help you. I've never published anything of myself singing because I don't like the sound of my voice (a lot of singers seem to have the same problem with their own voice) but other people tell me I'm a good singer and should sing more. The main thing is that I enjoy singing and as long as people accept what I do...

Subject: RE: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 06:24 AM

I can't sing, I know I recorded my self played it back and realised that unless you were going for the strangled cat sound it wasn't my thing.
Only people who can sing insist no one can't sing. And it irritates me when I say I can't sing and I get the reply 'everyone can sing'.

Subject: RE: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: Genie
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 06:14 AM

Well, my quarrel was with the thread title, not the question of what makes for excellence as a vocal performer.   
As for how good you have to be before you should get up and sing before an audience, I still hate to discourage people from doing that until they've achieved some standard of excellence, because most singers have to sing somewhat badly in public before they get the confidence and control to sing really well in front of an audience.   And I think that goes both for vocal technique and things like connecting with the audience, conveying what the song is about, etc.
Personally, I agree with Ian and Richard.   Some of the singers I've enjoyed most and who've expressed songs best have been rather mediocre in terms of pure vocal talent & technical skill.

Subject: RE: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: Richard from Liverpool
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 07:40 PM

As just your basic pub singaround singer, I have to say, I would rather hear 100 'bad singers' who know what they're singing about, and what it means to them, than 1 'good singer' who's all style and no substance.

Autotune isn't the only way of polishing the life out of a song. Some well-trained singers, more concerned with the medium (i.e. their precious voice) than the message, have been polishing the life out of songs for years.

Subject: RE: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: John P
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 07:35 PM

Genie, of course no one should be told they can't sing. But what this thread seems to be about is people who get up on stage and sing to an audience. In that situation, being able to sing well is a basic requirement.

Subject: RE: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: Genie
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 06:26 PM

Ian, you raise some interesting points. I cringe at your thread title, though.

Whether in churches, music therapy groups, song circles, classrooms, choirs looking for more voices, or general sing-alongs, I'm always running into people who refuse to sing -- or, worse, hold back their breath and their voices -- because someone (usually a teacher) told them "You can't sing!"
As I heard someone observe, when a child walks awkwardly or has a speech impediment, we don't tell them "You can't walk." or "You can't talk." So why do we tell someone they "can't sing" just because they don't do it as well as some others? Even more importantly, why would we ever want to tell someone "You can't sing" just because their singing technique isn't at a professional level or their performances are "boring?"

I would rather encourage people to sing -- which not only is good for your health but also tends to get better if you do it often -- and be prepared to offer constructive critiques when asked for than discourage people by telling them they "can't."

(And, Janie, you definitely can sing - and are not boring either!)

Genie

Subject: RE: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: Tootler
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 06:11 PM

I don't think there's anything worse than that, other than pop stars.

Nothing quite like a good sweeping generalisation.

Subject: RE: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: Janie
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 06:11 PM

I couldn't sing in 2010.

Now it's 2011, and guess what? I still can't!

Subject: RE: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 05:55 PM

Florence Foster Jenkins, the "opera singer" couldn't sing. I don't think there's anything worse than that, other than pop stars.

Subject: RE: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 05:45 PM

So, is this thread about self confession, or condemnation of others?


:-)

Subject: RE: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: John P
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 04:29 PM

I want both . . . But yes, feel is more important than technique. If the technique is bad enough, however, no amount of feel will save the show.

Subject: Who can't sing? - 2011
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 01:30 PM

Basically there are several aspects to a singing performance.

A good singer, technically, can be incredibly boring (like many so called "good" guitarists).

If you're going to see a singer who is an amazing musician, fine, if you're just going to admire technique.

But many (most?) people who go to folk clubs to be entertained by music or a music based folk acts (eg. more patter than music) want a good time. A good spirited performer who's not technically brilliamt will send more people home feeling they've had a good night than the "amazing" but boring..