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BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???

artbrooks 06 May 11 - 07:53 PM
Wesley S 06 May 11 - 10:42 PM
andrew e 06 May 11 - 11:12 PM
Donuel 07 May 11 - 12:42 AM
Donuel 07 May 11 - 12:58 AM
Jim Carroll 07 May 11 - 02:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 May 11 - 03:09 AM
Jim Carroll 07 May 11 - 04:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 May 11 - 04:54 AM
GUEST,lively 07 May 11 - 04:57 AM
Richard Bridge 07 May 11 - 05:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 May 11 - 06:12 AM
GUEST,lively 07 May 11 - 06:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 May 11 - 07:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 May 11 - 07:12 AM
GUEST,lively 07 May 11 - 07:34 AM
GUEST,lively 07 May 11 - 07:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 May 11 - 07:41 AM
artbrooks 07 May 11 - 08:02 AM
GUEST,Lighter 07 May 11 - 09:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 May 11 - 09:14 AM
bobad 07 May 11 - 09:35 AM
GUEST,lively 07 May 11 - 09:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 May 11 - 09:59 AM
GUEST,lively 07 May 11 - 10:13 AM
bobad 07 May 11 - 10:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 May 11 - 10:29 AM
GUEST,Lighter 07 May 11 - 10:42 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 07 May 11 - 11:55 AM
Donuel 07 May 11 - 11:57 AM
gnu 07 May 11 - 01:08 PM
Jim Carroll 07 May 11 - 01:15 PM
GUEST,lively 07 May 11 - 01:28 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 May 11 - 01:35 PM
Don Firth 07 May 11 - 02:25 PM
Don Firth 07 May 11 - 04:30 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 07 May 11 - 04:44 PM
GUEST,lively 07 May 11 - 04:52 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 07 May 11 - 05:33 PM
Wesley S 07 May 11 - 05:35 PM
bobad 07 May 11 - 05:55 PM
GUEST,number 6 07 May 11 - 06:21 PM
GUEST,lively 07 May 11 - 06:25 PM
Charley Noble 07 May 11 - 09:15 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 May 11 - 02:16 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 May 11 - 03:13 AM
Richard Bridge 08 May 11 - 03:38 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 May 11 - 03:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 May 11 - 04:20 AM
Jim Carroll 08 May 11 - 04:37 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 May 11 - 07:53 PM

I would guess that the senators who are claiming that waterboarding or other harsh interrogation techniques led to - or didn't lead to - Osama's capture know about as much about it as anyone here...which is to say, nothing. The most credible comment I've heard is that his location was deduced by putting a number of very small pieces together over several years.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 May 11 - 10:42 PM

I'm wondering if the people who are saying that the ""enhanced interrogation techniques" worked and helped find Bin Laden - are the same people who WANT it to work and support it's usage.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: andrew e
Date: 06 May 11 - 11:12 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Donuel
Date: 07 May 11 - 12:42 AM

The prior administration does deserve all the debt and credit for killing bin Laden

Listen up.

It is as large and oily as the nose on your face that Dick Cheney is instrumental in killing bin Laden.
First he showed America and the world the technique of shooting old men in the face at close range.
Second, torture clearly defeated bin Laden. Did you know that Ossama was in the same room as his wife and a couple toddlers for 6 years and never went out of the house !?
When the commandos showed up he said "Just shoot me".

All this is behind us now. It has gone full circle.
All the conspiracy nuts are even at peace. Since they thought bin Laden is not really dead and that it was really George Bush who did 9-11 by implosion to distract attention from Hawaii where CIA operatives were planting photoshopped birth certificates so that a Kenyan guy named Obama could come to power to kill the phoney bin Laden who Bush blamed for blowing up the WTC in a phoney act of terrorism.

With the exception of a couple dozen Pakistani nukes and several small nukes that they have lost the pass words to make them explode, we can all take a collective sigh of relief.

As long as we don't let the Supreme Court elect another D student spoiled rich kid with a daddy complex to the white house, we should
do OK.
















Bunker entrance
_
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______
________
H===========
H
H
H
H===========
H
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H
HH===========
H
H mmmmMmMMmmm
H
H___H----H___    A loud and droning hum of the ventillation system reverberates deep underground in the situation room where Obama speaks plainly asking each advisor their opinion.
Barak asks quetly, "What do you say we get out of Afghanistan?"
Hillary says "Yes we can".
Petraus says "its to soon to change"
Pannetta says "Yeah man, thats a good idea.
Barack: "Yeman? really? I think its a good idea too. OK lets go into Yeman next ."
Panetta: "Sir is this a joke like your 'two jihadists walk into a bar' story?"
Barak: No, I'm serious, but this time were are going to give George W Bush and Dick Cheney full credit from the git go."
Petraus: "Sending them both to Gitmo has been a secret wish of mine for the last eight years."
Barak: "Thanks everyone lets break for lunch and get this plan started ASAP."


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Donuel
Date: 07 May 11 - 12:58 AM

I say spike the football, do a victory lap, make the very special mini series...

IF we can't have a real picture of bin Laden's dead head, I say we issue a postage stamp of a wounded bin Laden and postmark the shit out of his face for the next year.

Or maybe casting a bust of bin Laden with all the gory wounds and sell them as lawn ornaments.

I think the politically correct restraint has left a deep seated need to have one last swipe at the fucker.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 11 - 02:51 AM

"Yank-bashing" is sure what it sounds like to me"
One way out Don - but you really need to look in the mirror sometime.
Nobody here has a good word to say about bin Laden and his bunch of fanatics - we all wanted justice - for 9-11, for London, and for every act of terror they've committed, but the operative word is justice - not vengeance.
You blew it - you executed your man without taking him through due process, you killed a bystander and you invaded the sovereign territory of another nation (needlessly) to do it. In that way you were, and are seen by many as little different from them, especially with your unenviable track record. Almost the first comment in the press here was of the jingoisticly triumphalist chanting mobs on the streets of New York and Washington.
You'll get your support from brown-noses like Keith, who will happily bare their country's arse for whatever you choose to do, but you'll not get it from where it counts, which is what will be needed if our kids are to have a future where they can live in peace - you don't shoot and bomb religious fanatics into submission - that's the way to give them something to die for.
You're right - there is a great deal of anti-Americanism in all this - it's the self-flagellation kind, rising directly from your own behaviour.
Jim Carroll
BTW - it was Dick Cheyney who has called for the continued use of torture.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 11 - 03:09 AM

" you executed your man without taking him through due process"

You know this Jim?
How?
Were they in fear of their lives possibly?

", you killed a bystander"


An extraordinarily low number of civilian casualties for such an operation.
There were about twenty people in that compound.

"and you invaded the sovereign territory of another nation"

Yes but only for fourty minutes by 25 blokes.
And they did them a massive favour while there.
No one is complaining and it was legal.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 11 - 04:40 AM

"No one is complaining and it was legal. "
Yes they are, and the legality remains to be seen - your 40 minutes is just bloody nonsense - it wouldn't make any difference if it had been 40 seconds and one soldier - they belligerantly sent troops into a country to carry out an assassination when there was no need for them to do so.
Not only did they kill a bystander in the process, the importance of which you have snopaked out (collateral damage) but they incurred the animosity of many countries, which will have repercussions on the fight against terrorism ("The Yanks are at it again")
In the end it is not the point. Appeasers like yourself can sell your or anybody's country to the highest bidder on the grounds of legality if you want - the question being discussed here is was the US action the best course to follow - it wasn't and it is likely to backfire on all of us - it is about time they cleaned up their act, for all of our sakes.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 11 - 04:54 AM

"they incurred the animosity of many countries"

Which countries Jim?
Give us a short list of the major ones.

The only ones complaining are you, and other West hating fanatical extremists.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 07 May 11 - 04:57 AM

"No one is complaining and it was legal."

I would say that outside of the US, reactions have been very mixed and less than jubilant. Pakistan in particular has given out some very mixed messages, including threats of "disastrous consequences" if the US were to attempt any more unauthorised unilateral military raids of like kind within Pakistan. Those sound like fighting words to me.

In any event, as to the issue of legality, I believe that question is still open. The UN have requested full disclosure of details pertaining to the raid from the US:

"the norm should be that terrorists be dealt with as criminals, through legal processes of arrest, trial and judicially decided punishment.
Actions taken by States in combating terrorism, especially in high profile cases, set precedents for the way in which the right to life will be treated in future instances.
In respect of the recent use of deadly force against Osama bin Laden, the United States of America should disclose the supporting facts to allow an assessment in terms of international human rights law standards. For instance it will be particularly important to know if the planning of the mission allowed an effort to capture Bin Laden."

http://www.ohchr.org/en/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=10987&LangID=E


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 May 11 - 05:05 AM

Jim, I don't think Keith is an appeaser. He just approves of shooting people. In his world justice comes from the barrel of a gun. Indeed I suspect he'd have rather the UK assassinated ObL as a measure of our virility.

Notice how he sets out no legal justification of drone attacks - merely that they are common.

Don, pretending that waterboarding is not torture is pretty silly. It involves slowly drowning people, letting them cough their lungs up, and doing it again. "Stress positions" are no more justifiable - simply modern variations of the strappado. With torture you can get anyone to say anything. Just think Salem witch trials. You appear to be treating the world like a Stephen Seagal film.

The US does not set a great example for civil rights or the rule of law. Guantanamo bay was established precisely to keep detainees out of any available justice system. Its oppression of its indigenous peoples is worse than anything the UK ever did in Ireland (about which so many USAians wax wroth), and probably as bad as the world's first concentration camps - used by the UK against Boers.

Whether the USA is still involved in rendition is not the point. The fact of rendition is well established. Imagine that you are an innocent man, siezed in your home country, and flown to where you can conveniently be tortured until you admit to something you did not do. Some so seized may be guilty even though their guilt is not established, but a 100% record of accuracy in deciding who to seize and torture is simply inconceivable.


I would also mention that although the US is claiming that its torture regime found ObL they would say that, wouldn't they? I have seen other suggestions that it was the interception of one telephone call "from a trusted lieutenant" that actually enabled the USA to find ObL.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 11 - 06:12 AM

Lively, if you read it in context,"of "disastrous consequences" if the US were to attempt any more unauthorised unilateral military raids of like kind within Pakistan." they were concerned that they might be an unintended engagement.

Richard,that was not a nice thing to say about me, and it is not true.
Wars do sometimes have to be fought.
In war it is accepted that you must kill enemy combatants without warning or due process.
OBL was an enemy combatant.
I find it surprising if he did not have some way of taking some Americans with him.

I am not knowledgeable on the law regarding drone strikes, but they have been happening for years now with no legal challenge.
They are also credited with turning the tide against the insurgency.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 07 May 11 - 06:28 AM

Keith, I agree that the phrase is ambiguous and open to differing interpretations. I haven't seen any clarification of what was precisely meant by it from the source however.

....

An (unrelated) opinion piece from Noam Chomsky on the "planned assassination" of Bin Laden:

"We might ask ourselves how we would be reacting if Iraqi commandos landed at George W. Bush's compound, assassinated him, and dumped his body in the Atlantic."

http://www.guernicamag.com/blog/2652/noam_chomsky_my_reaction_to_os/

While I have much respect for him as a thinker and writer, I imagine feelings about Chomsky will range very widely on this forum.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 11 - 07:09 AM

I have already stated that I will not support the soldiers if they acted unlawfully.
That would be if they ignored a request to surrender.
Remember, their own lives depended on a split second decision.
We are told that his companion, you have to say bravely, rushed at the soldiers.
She clearly did not intend to be taken without a fight.
Is he about to detonate an explosive belt?
If it was your son or daughter in that room, what advice would you give them?

That is what your UN piece was about Lively.
No-one is questioning the legality of the incursion itself.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 11 - 07:12 AM

Lively, that exact phrase, in the context I gave, was used by a Pakistan government official in that BBC programme I linked to.
It comes just before Lubell comes on.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 07 May 11 - 07:34 AM

"I have already stated that I will not support the soldiers if they acted unlawfully.
That would be if they ignored a request to surrender. ...
That is what your UN piece was about Lively."

Yes, that's correct.

I wouldn't advice soldiers on anything of course.
However, considering the differing accounts of the event as initially given by The Whitehouse press office, compared to those later submitted by the Seals themselves, I think it legitimate that the UN request disclosure of further details pertaining to the operation.

Note the text of the UN statement which refers to the planning of the mission rather than it's execution:

"the United States of America should disclose the supporting facts to allow an assessment in terms of international human rights law standards. For instance it will be particularly important to know if the planning of the mission allowed an effort to capture Bin Laden."

If it were to unfold that this was in fact a planned assassination, as some indeed suspect, then it's not merely soldiers who acted unlawfully.

Many on this thread (from your statements, clearly you are not among them) clearly find issues of lawfulness or otherwise, to be an irrelivancy in this matter. I don't agree with such a position.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 07 May 11 - 07:40 AM

"Lively, that exact phrase, in the context I gave, was used by a Pakistan government official in that BBC programme I linked to."

Thank you, I'll have to take a look later.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 11 - 07:41 AM

Thanks for that endorsement Lively.
It would have been legal to make an attempt on his life.
It is illegal to order soldiers to kill a prisoner.
If such an order was given, it would not have been on the record, and we shall never know.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 May 11 - 08:02 AM

Sailors, actually.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 07 May 11 - 09:09 AM

One of CNN's regular legal commentators (in other words, not someone specially selected to address this case) says that it is legal under international law to seize a suspect like Bin Laden in another country if it can be shown that that country "is unable or unwilling" to extradite him or otherwise bring him to justice.

She suggested that the fact that Bin Laden had been living for years less than a mile from a military installation while Pakistan knew he was wanted internationally was prima facie evidence that Pakistan was unwilling or unable to deal with him.

I suppose that questions may still be raised (in theory) about how many of the shots actually fired by the Americans were "legal" or "illegal," but international law would seem to have been observed. As it is never observed by Al Qaida.

There is also the moral principle of choosing the lesser of two evils: invade one house in Pakistan for forty minutes or let Bin Laden plot ten thousand more deaths.

As far as I'm concerned, case closed.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 11 - 09:14 AM

"There is also the moral principle of choosing the lesser of two evils: invade one house in Pakistan for forty minutes or let Bin Laden plot ten thousand more deaths."
Indeed Lighter.
Who will disagree?
Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: bobad
Date: 07 May 11 - 09:35 AM

The only people I see disagreeing are this sites usual malcontents and other terrorists like Hamas that they side with.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 07 May 11 - 09:42 AM

"the moral principle of choosing the lesser of two evils"

As has already been discussed here, I suppose that depends on what you consider the "two evils" to actually be? Bin Laden is already being described as "Obi Wan Bin Laden" online for example, or in other words, more powerful dead than alive.

Here are some considered comments on the possible long term fallout of this incident and the dangerous potential consequences of a resultant "redirection of the Arab spring":

Ed Husain, Senior Fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, says that Osama bin Laden is more valuable to al-Qaeda dead than alive.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 11 - 09:59 AM

From Livlely's link, 1m 20secs in.
"I am not arguing for a moment that he should not have been killed.
Of course he should have been killed."


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 07 May 11 - 10:13 AM

"I am not arguing for a moment that he should not have been killed.
Of course he should have been killed."

Yes, of course the speaker there wasn't responding to the question of a supposed moral case involving "the lesser of two evils" - I was.

The "moral case" Lighter put forward based on "the lesser of two evils", was founded on the premise that Bin Laden would be a more dangerous figure alive than dead - others however - such as the speaker in that clip, argue differently. I think it's a valid point of view.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: bobad
Date: 07 May 11 - 10:17 AM

That's all just speculation for now, remove the tumour first and deal with any potential complications as they arise.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 11 - 10:29 AM

Jim, I hope you are not still compiling that list.
I only asked for a short list of the major countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 07 May 11 - 10:42 AM

It's a valid point of view, lively, but it's a question that could (and can) never be answered. Who knows what might have happened? Bin Laden could even have died of a sudden heart attack minutes before the raiders got there. That wouldn't mean they shouldn't have gone. Or whether Bin Laden's natural death, saving him (presumably by God's will) from his enemies, would have inspired his followers even more.

Decisions for action have to be based on the known or probable rather than on the completely unknown or unknowable.

Because the world is as it is and humans are fallible, sometimes those decisions are wrong. This one, I believe, was right.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 May 11 - 11:55 AM

Fuck him..he's dead..get over it!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Donuel
Date: 07 May 11 - 11:57 AM

Jim, there are plenty of people who complain about the legality.
I whole hearteldy accept my humanity and remain homest about the hypocrisy of being a blood thirsty pacifist. The most Chrstian cheek turning enemy loving person is not a fanatic in certain circumstances. Murdering a genocidal rich fanatic is one of those cases where humanity is tested and left wanting. I know this is no more profound than saying "it is what it is" but in this world of food chains that is the way it is.

Nature makes mistakes, people make mistakes and I wager even bacteria makes mistakes.

The dilemma of enforcing our law outside our border with or without the UN or International courts is settled by one factor. Might makes right. This was evidenced when a Belgian COurt was forced to back down from thier indictment and arrest warrent for Dick Cheney and Rumsfeld. Whatever they were threatened with, worked.



What has the CIA learned from Usama's villa and personal effects?
He used American products like Vasoline.
Planned rail and bridge attacks.
Was more a prisoner of Pakistan than a guest.
Was not very computer savvy.
When it came to movies he was a big VIn Diesel Fast and Furious fan.




What we have learned that is surprising is that Usama bin Laden, one of 55 children of a common father slept on a cheap water bed and had over a dozen pot plants growing in a room off his bedroom.
Imagine if he had been captured and some of the charges at his indictment in his Gitmo tribunal, included growing pot, bigamy, aiding the deliquency of minors, sodomy, conspiracy to commit murder, interferring with the business of Wall St,


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: gnu
Date: 07 May 11 - 01:08 PM

He's on video tape... turn on your TV news.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 11 - 01:15 PM

"Jim, I hope you are not still compiling that list."
Will be ready when you give us your thoughts about the US use of torture and imprisonment without trial, and the wisdom of giving free access to your country to such a nation
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 07 May 11 - 01:28 PM

"Who knows what might have happened? ... whether Bin Laden's natural death, saving him (presumably by God's will) from his enemies, would have inspired his followers even more.
Decisions for action have to be based on the known or probable ... sometimes those decisions are wrong. This one, I believe, was right."

Lighter, well I think I may differ with you there somewhat.
As to the "known or probable", well Obama himself made a statement a few years ago (I can't summon the quotes offhand) amounting to a promise that Bin Laden would never be made a martyr on his watch.

Of course Obama was clearly aware of the power of martyrdom and the serious danger implied by making Bin Laden a martyr to the cause of extreme Islamists. Martyrs are those who sacrifice themselves for their cause - not old men who die peacefully in their sleep, and arguably there's no better death for a wannabe martyr than getting "executed in cold blood" (as it has been represented by some) by one's enemy during a controversial midnight raid.

That said, I respect your view and while I don't know any better than you what the outcome of this will be, I am always happy to exchange civilly expressed differences of opinion..


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 11 - 01:35 PM

Wait no longer Jim!
I have already given my opinion on a US incursion into Britain, and the other matter is outside the scope of this thread.
I will oblige as soon as you reopen one of the many threads on the subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 May 11 - 02:25 PM

"Don, pretending that waterboarding is not torture is pretty silly."

You, too, Richard?

Will you people stop trying to put words in my mouth? PTUI!! I am NOT "pretending" that waterboarding is not torture. I am unalterably opposed to any form of torture no matter who does it, and I deeply resent your and Jim's accusations that I condone it.

You both seem to be assuming that the information that led to locating bin Laden came solely from torture, knowing really nothing about the intelligence processes that were actually used. Never even took into account the detail and accuracy available from spy satellites, for one thing. Capable of identifying the make and model of an automobile from 200 miles up, for example—AND often, of recognizing people. And that was one of their capabilities twenty years ago. I suspect they've made substantial advances since. Somewhat less high-tech, perhaps, are overflights with drones, which, believe me, have been on the prowl for some time, and are NOT solely used for "killing civilians," as you keep accusing American forces of using them for. And remember--American forces are not the ONLY ones there! You conveniently forget that this has been a joint operation from the start.

". . . although the US is claiming that its torture regime found ObL. . . ."

REALLY?   Who said THAT? Dick Cheney? And you accept the idea that people like that speak for the entire American citizenry?

Now, I'm fully aware that there are a lot of very iffy issues about tracking down bin Laden, and what might ultimately grow out of it, and there will be a lot of dissections and investigations of it in the future—done by American jurists, and, of course, by politicians of various stripes. That's inevitable.

But your knee-jerk idea that Americans in general, or me personally, totally approve of the whole operation, especially the possibility of the use of (and call it what it is!) torture, are insulting, offensive, holier-than-thou, and blatant evidence of rank prejudice.

SHAME!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 May 11 - 04:30 PM

Much of the mess that some folks are blaming "America" for started with an administration that lost the popular vote by a close margin, but through the machinations of a corrupt election system in the State of Florida (where George W. Bush's brother was Governor) and a conservative-biased Supreme Court, was put into office anyway.

From Truthout:
On Sunday, May 1, President Obama stated "al-Qaeda's leader and symbol" Osama bin Laden had been killed: "Tonight, I can report to the American people and the world that the United States has conducted an operation that killed Osama bin Laden." Less than 24 hours after President Obama made his announcement, Sarah Palin, in a speech at Colorado Christian University, said, "We thank President [George W.] Bush for having made the right calls to set up this victory." She never mentioned President Obama. The conservative Washington Times newspaper wrote, "Bin Laden's death is more Mr. Bush's victory than Mr. Obama's because American forces wouldn't even be fighting in South Asia had Democratic doves had their way." The National Review Online wrote, "Mr. Obama might have noted that this work began under President Bush, but as usual he did not."

If conservatives want to give former president Bush the credit for the capture of bin Laden, they must also ensure that he take the responsibility for the misinformation and disinformation that led us into two protracted military misadventures. Every single excuse that Cheney/Bush provided to the American people for invading Afghanistan and Iraq proved to be false.

•   The 9/11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia, not Afghanistan.
•   No weapons of mass destruction (WMDs) were found in Iraq.
•   No relationship between Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden tied Hussein to 9/11.
•   No attempt from Saddam to purchase "yellow cake" uranium from Niger was ever documented.

According to Iraq on the Record, a report prepared for Rep. Henry Waxman (D-California) in 2004, prior to the war in Iraq, Bush, Vice President Richard Cheney, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of State Colin Powell and National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice, "made misleading statements about the threat posed by Iraq in 125 public appearances consisting of 40 speeches, 26 press conferences and briefings, 53 interviews, 4 written statements, and 2 congressional testimonies. The report ... identifies 237 specific misleading statements ... Most of the statements ... were misleading because they expressed certainty where none existed or failed to acknowledge the doubts of intelligence officials. Ten of the statements were simply false." Bush took action, but it was based upon the false narrative that his administration created.

If conservatives want to give Bush the credit for the capture of bin Laden, why didn't they take him in 2001, just ten weeks after 9/11? In July of 2009, 60 Minutes reported that in November 2001, Delta Force troops, "Using radio intercepts and other intelligence, the CIA pinpointed bin Laden in the mountains near the border of Pakistan. According to a Delta commander being interviewed, "We're about 2,000 meters away from where we think bin Laden's at still ... bin Laden was on the radio. The CIA, Delta and their Afghan allies were listening." They failed to even attempt to engage him. Their plans of attack were never approved. "How often does Delta come up with a tactical plan that's disapproved by higher headquarters?" Pelley from 60 Minutes asks. "In my experience, said a former Delta commander, in my five years at Delta, never before." They either have to take credit or responsibility.

Conservatives can't have their cake and eat it, too.
This is the same administration that authorized such things as "waterboarding" and "enhanced interrogation" (euphemisms for torture), and "extraordinary rendition," so they wouldn't have to watch.

No matter what one may think of the Obama administration, it beats the hell out of the alternative.

Put the onus where it belongs!! Barack Obama got stuck with the thankless task of trying to cleam up the septic tank that the Bush/Cheney administration dumped on the nation and the world.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 May 11 - 04:44 PM

Well, it looks like our resident America-bashers are back at it. Perhaps they would have liked it if they would have asked 'permission' from the corrupt U.N. before they carried out a top secret mission..but then, going to the VERY corrupt U.N., would for sure, screwed up the element of surprise, because, for a price, the info would have gotten to the Pakistanis, and eventually to OBL...where he could have made an escape, to frolic in the Islam dream world, of killing everything innocent, that doesn't subscribe to one sect's or another sect's bullshit1 Now that doesn't bother our resident 'intellectuals' who can't reason past their noses..I mean, if you're are going to plan a secret attack, why not tell the whole world, before you do it??..Even though, then President Bush did just that!..which I pointed out, but the 'wonder-geniuses' can't seem to register that...speaking of which, some operations are secret..like 'Operation Overlord'...which had you have been alive, I'm sure you would have wanted Roosevelt, Eisenhower, and Churchill, to get your fucking approval....but then, maybe you're just pissed off, because you'd rather be speaking German, hating the U.S. and killing Jews!!..which happens to be consistent with the sentiments of most of your posts, even before this thread!!!! Check it out yourselves!
"Like most 'intellectuals'..they are intensely boring!" --'Dangerous Liaisons'
'We can for give those who bore us, we can NEVER forgive those who We bore!'--Wilde

Agreeing,

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 07 May 11 - 04:52 PM

Don Firth: "your knee-jerk idea that Americans in general, or me personally, totally approve of the whole operation,"

I can't speak on behalf of anyone else of course, but I'm sure that no-one who has read through this thread properly could have missed that responses from US posters have been varied and considered and certainly not smugly self-congratulatory or jingoistic.

"No matter what one may think of the Obama administration, it beats the hell out of the alternative."

I believe you. And being an outsider, I really don't have a dog in that race.
However, I feel it is still nonetheless appropriate to judge this President according to both his words and actions.
The statement I referred to previously also made mention of the importance of emulating the inspirational example set by the Nuremburg trails in relation to any future capture of bin Laden:

"'What would be important would be for us to do it in a way that allows the entire world to understand the murderous acts that he's engaged in and not to make him into a martyr, and to assure that the United States government is abiding by basic conventions that would strengthen our hand in the broader battle against terrorism.'
The senator cited the Nuremberg trials as an inspiration because the liberators of Nazi-occupied Europe acted to advance universal principles and set a tone for the creation of an international order."

Quote from the Daily Mail, which isn't a preferred usual source, but it seems an unbiased report:

I Won't Make bin Laden a Martyr


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 May 11 - 05:33 PM

By the way, I think Obama is a crappy President!..but taking out OBL was the first promise he's ever kept!..health-care not withstanding..but that was Pelosi's and Reid's baby!
I do question the reason 'Why' he chose to to it, being as he hasn't given a damn about anything else American..but nonetheless, OBL died according to HIS rules, and by his rules! Thousands of his victims, never even were even aware that 'his rules' is what killed them! Osama was just a festering pimple on the ass of humanity, that's time to get popped just came up. Civilized people around the world are grateful. Fanatic jihadists inflamed....whiny, bleeding heart screwballs, just have to feel 'involved' to champion, some sort of 'unfairness', and use any lame excuse they can, to feel important!...You want to feel important, and useful??...Go comfort one of the many thousands of families whose loved ones were killed needlessly by the lunatic, whose time just ran out! He 'wanted' to be a 'martyr', which was just empty rhetoric, to get others to do the dirty work...Team Six merely gave him a 'helping hand'!...sorta like the 'Make-A-Wish-Foundation'. (They give terminally ill children their wish, as to 'lighten their suffering'). Now, OBL got his phony wish. You should be happy for him!

May all your wishes come true!!!!...(as long as they don't include killing innocent men women and children!!)....Osama got all of his!!
Rejoice, and be glad!...sing a folk song in his memory!..raise a toast to him for getting his 72 virgins!..He's in great shape!..that is, if you believe in that horseshit!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 May 11 - 05:35 PM

"However, I feel it is still nonetheless appropriate to judge this President according to both his words and actions."

And - being an outsider - you realize that your opinion and $2.00 American will get you a small cup of Starbucks coffee.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: bobad
Date: 07 May 11 - 05:55 PM

I'm wondering if those who are spewing spittle over the Americans "violating" Pakistan's sovereignty feel the same about Afghani Taliban who regularly move into and out of Pakistan without, I am sure, checking into customs.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 07 May 11 - 06:21 PM

"being an outsider - you realize that your opinion and $2.00 American will get you a small cup of Starbucks coffee."

... come to Canada .... you can get a much better cup of coffee at much less the cost at Tim Horton's !! No one might give a rat's ass on you opinion there but what the hell eh ....

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 07 May 11 - 06:25 PM

"being an outsider - you realize that your opinion and $2.00 American will get you a small cup of Starbucks coffee."

Most definitely - I assure you that I'm not as dumb as I sound..


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 May 11 - 09:15 PM

"come to Canada .... you can get a much better cup of coffee at much less the cost at Tim Horton's"

Come to Maine and you can get your cup of coffee at Tim Hortons but most of us don't, or at Starbuck's either. There's still local breakfast places we can get our coffee black, when we're too lazy to brew up our own.

Anyone bothered to check out the neat videos that were released today from the raid of Bin Laden's compound? I especially liked the one where Bin Laden is shown at his Playstation gunning down aliens.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 11 - 02:16 AM

Those who argued that Obama was wrong have stopped trying to defend their beliefs.
They have stopped posting.
Given up.
Change of heart?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 May 11 - 03:13 AM

Kieth A of Hertford: "Change of heart?"

Maybe they read their own posts...
Maybe they thought of the families who lost loved ones, and considered that they were more victims, than their killer!
Maybe they thought of empathizing with children without fathers or mothers, who were on their way to work, to provide them with food, and homes, more than slick 'legal' arguments to justify why those families deserved that.
Maybe they thought that while the SEALS were rappelling down from their choppers, OBL was planning to make more orphans, and widows.....then again..
Maybe they just don't care...and were tired of embarrassing themselves...and showing other musicians, that they didn't have a heart to begin with.
Maybe they're thinking....
Maybe we're all thinking...
Maybe we should be praying for peace in the hearts of all mankind.
Maybe love really is the answer....we've tried enough alternatives...

Guest from Sanity


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 May 11 - 03:38 AM

I believe it is now established that the US did not inform Pakistan prior to the raid, much less seek consent. Illegal incursion unless a case of hot pursuit. Which it wasn't.

The US claims that its information came from "enhanced interrogation" - call a spade a spade - torture. Fruit of the poisonous tree.

There was no lawful warrant for the arrest of ObL.

Therefore the US had no lawful power to seek to seize ObL at that time and in that place.

Therefore to use reasonable force to resist arrest would have been lawful.

It is clearly established by US admission that ObL was unarmed. His brave wife was I think also unarmed. Against armed soldiers their efforts could have been no more than reasonable force.

Therefore the killing was unlawful. It remains to be seen whether it was a good thing in the abstract.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 May 11 - 03:53 AM

Never trust in a man's better nature...he might not have one!

Is it Richard?..or maybe..never-mind....

You really have nothing to say..nor I to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 11 - 04:20 AM

OBL was clearly taken completely by surprise.
He expected his friends within Pakistan security to tip him off of any such move.
I agree Richard that Pakistan was not informed.
That is why the SEALS are still living and OBL is not.
The incursion is legal if for national self defence.
Pakistan is not disputing the legality of the incursion.
Neither is the UN or any other country or organisation.

The SEALS were entitled to assume that such a fighter would be armed, and to assume a suicide belt


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 11 - 04:37 AM

"Given up." - "Maybe they read their own posts..."
And maybe they have a life away from the screen.
It is is a beautiful day here in the West of Ireland.
Yesterday we were treated to superb displays of traditional music, mainly on the uilleann pipes, from some of the most talented musicians in Ireland, many of them young Travellers - all taking place in the idyllic surroundings of the Atlantic coastline.
The sessions lasted well into the early hours of the morning.
In half an hour's time we're off again to hear more superb playing, drink more foaming pints of Guinness, and spend more time in the the company of people who share our love of music. This again will almost certainly go on into the early hours of tomorrow morning, when we will roll home with our ears ringing with wonderful music and great conversation, having partaken of probably more than enough of the hospitality of 'the blonde in the brown skirt'.
Given the choice of this, and discussing the finer points of assassination, invasion and regimes that use torture and illegal imprisonment, with two spineless individuals who don't even have the bottle to face the conclusions of their own twisted logic - sorry, no competition.
You really should try to get out more.
Jim Carroll


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