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BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???

Keith A of Hertford 08 May 11 - 04:53 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 May 11 - 04:48 PM
GUEST,lively 08 May 11 - 04:27 PM
GUEST,Lighter 08 May 11 - 04:17 PM
GUEST,lively 08 May 11 - 04:01 PM
GUEST,Lighter 08 May 11 - 03:39 PM
artbrooks 08 May 11 - 03:23 PM
GUEST,lively 08 May 11 - 03:04 PM
Richard Bridge 08 May 11 - 02:54 PM
Stringsinger 08 May 11 - 02:07 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 May 11 - 01:11 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 08 May 11 - 12:57 PM
GUEST,lively 08 May 11 - 12:53 PM
Stringsinger 08 May 11 - 12:41 PM
Charley Noble 08 May 11 - 12:07 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 May 11 - 07:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 May 11 - 05:48 AM
Jim Carroll 08 May 11 - 04:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 May 11 - 04:20 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 May 11 - 03:53 AM
Richard Bridge 08 May 11 - 03:38 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 May 11 - 03:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 May 11 - 02:16 AM
Charley Noble 07 May 11 - 09:15 PM
GUEST,lively 07 May 11 - 06:25 PM
GUEST,number 6 07 May 11 - 06:21 PM
bobad 07 May 11 - 05:55 PM
Wesley S 07 May 11 - 05:35 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 07 May 11 - 05:33 PM
GUEST,lively 07 May 11 - 04:52 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 07 May 11 - 04:44 PM
Don Firth 07 May 11 - 04:30 PM
Don Firth 07 May 11 - 02:25 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 May 11 - 01:35 PM
GUEST,lively 07 May 11 - 01:28 PM
Jim Carroll 07 May 11 - 01:15 PM
gnu 07 May 11 - 01:08 PM
Donuel 07 May 11 - 11:57 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 07 May 11 - 11:55 AM
GUEST,Lighter 07 May 11 - 10:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 May 11 - 10:29 AM
bobad 07 May 11 - 10:17 AM
GUEST,lively 07 May 11 - 10:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 May 11 - 09:59 AM
GUEST,lively 07 May 11 - 09:42 AM
bobad 07 May 11 - 09:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 May 11 - 09:14 AM
GUEST,Lighter 07 May 11 - 09:09 AM
artbrooks 07 May 11 - 08:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 May 11 - 07:41 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 11 - 04:53 PM

Re 9/11 conspiracy.
I do not believe it, but I accept that cleverer people than me do.

I followed all the arguments and counterarguments, but that was before the administration changed.

What are the theories about the Democrats?
Were they in on it from the start?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 11 - 04:48 PM

Richard, I have acknowledged that Pakistan expressed "concern"
That is not challenging the legality of the incursion.
Their concern was that, not having been informed, there could have been an incident.
Reasonable concern I suppose.

Richard, are you not aware that national self defence can justify an incursion without consent?
That is what you would have to argue against.
Some individuals do, but no country or organisation so far.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 08 May 11 - 04:27 PM

"Obama outlawed waterboarding"

I believe the relevant information gleaned by such methods, was about ten years old. Clearly there is a contingent of commentators who wish to ensure that "credit" for Bin Laden's elimination, goes to the prior Bush administration.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 08 May 11 - 04:17 PM

Just as a point of interest, Obama outlawed waterboarding almost as soon as he took office in 2009.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 08 May 11 - 04:01 PM

I saw it discussed on BBC's Question Time, though I don't recall if any official source for the information was cited then. Possibly not.

Otherwise, an article in The Telegraph here CIA Admits Waterboarding Yeilded Vital Information goes into greater detail. According to Leon Panetta (director of the CIA) both so-called "enhanced" and other more conventional methods contributed to the full picture. I hear there has been some criticism of the Obama administration's seeming coyness about divulging this detail of the story, particularly from those who support the use of such methods.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 08 May 11 - 03:39 PM

Somehow I don't agree that the most complicated, most sinister explanations of events are most likely to be correct.

Obama is not Stalin.

Years ago I saw Oliver Stone's paranoid-fantasy flick JFK in the theater. In one scene, an unknown somebody secretly places a bullet on JFK's stretcher. The little old lady next to me shouted out, "Those sons of bitches!" She believed it because she saw it in a movie.

If anyone doubts the Warren Commission (and I know you do), I recommend Vincent Bugliosi's exhaustive book on the subject. Bugliosi is the former prosecutor who secured convictions for Charles Manson and company. A later book strongly indicted George W. Bush for an unnecessary invasion of Iraq.

Bugliosi concludes, among many other things, that Stone's film is baloney.

But Bugliosi could be part of the conspiracy too, and Manson might be innocent. Think about it. The anti-Bush book would then be part of Bugliosi's cover, perhaps written to Obama's order.

And I can't prove it wasn't, either.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 May 11 - 03:23 PM

Just because I'm always interested in what other peoples' media are reporting, exactly what "official" source said that the information on Osama's location came from "enhanced interrogation"?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 08 May 11 - 03:04 PM

"Colin Powell's graphs said it all. Weapons of Mass Delusion."

I was aware of the shoddy case of the plagiarised and 'sexed-up' Phd thesis that our intelligence service used to push the war, I wasn't aware until just now of the shoddy case of the CIA (ab)using Powell by briefing him with material gathered from sources already known to be unreliable.
The more you hear about this stuff, the more attractive the prospect of Iraqui troops swooping in on their own midnight raid to assassinate Bush & Blair becomes.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 May 11 - 02:54 PM

Surely, Charlie, the official line is: "The US claims that its information came from "enhanced interrogation"".

Keith, Pakistan has officially voiced its concern. It can hardly do more if it still wants its aid.

"The incursion is legal if for national self defence." - Hmm, funny, what about the Graf Spee?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 May 11 - 02:07 PM

Guests,I agree and as an addition,, my heart goes out to all of the Iraqis and Afghans who George Bush killed during his "terrist" assaults. Colin Powell's graphs said it all. Weapons of Mass Delusion.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 May 11 - 01:11 PM

Stringsinger: "ObL targeted assassination was Obama's hail mary pass to get re-elected. "Congress? He don't need no stinkin' Congress!"

I pretty much agree with you on that one! I've always distrusted him, from the beginning, as I'm sure my previous posts for the last two-three years would attest to. After the election I layed off of him for a years, as voluntarily promised Amos, and to give the guy room for a chance to do whatever he was going to do...and for the FIRST time, since he's been President, he actually went through the motions, of acting Presidential...and as soon as this bump in the polls go down, I imagine he'll release the photos, just to 'remind' people how 'wonderful' he is.
Personally, I think he is a schill for the bankers, with an 'almost' black face, to appeal to the left/liberals, but in fact, he is just a continuation of Bush/Clinton/Bush/Ford/Kissinger/Carter regimes..with NO slack in between!...each 'appealing' to the 'left' or 'right' ON THE SURFACE, but the main policies, which are ripping off the citizens, of their freedom, liberty, money, property, rights and warring foreign countries, for the highest bidding corporate 'special interests' has NOT changed!..Therefore, the hard sell to the American public!
Also, you possibly are correct about 911, and you can add the Oklahoma City federal building bombing, in with that..(remember the middle eastern guy getting out of the truck, right before the blast, as reported by several witnesses, and caught on camera?).
Sooner or later, all the truth may come out, but meanwhile, the country pretty much applauds Obama for OBL....but looks the other way for Waco!
Still, that being said, my heart goes out for all the innocent victims, who lost their families, or loved ones during this whole charade.
As far as OBL, it appears that the recalcitrant terrorist was at it, all the way to the end, and he was just stopped, in the course of it. Only his supporters, and sympathizers are doing the bitching. Makes you wonder, huh?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 May 11 - 12:57 PM

On the BBC news, did I just see a video of Bin Laden watching himself on TV???...I have strong doubts...


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 08 May 11 - 12:53 PM

"ObL targeted assassination was Obama's hail mary pass to get re-elected."

I think similarly, that it was a primarily political decision rather than a pragmatic one.

"Does it matter? If you think so, you're kidding yourself. Zawarhiri is still out there to become another political football."

Yes..

"The idea that ObL was really behind 911 is becoming increasingly more ludicrous, the more information out there is available.
No one has completely debunked a "conspiracy theory" about 911."

You don't have to be a 'conspiracy theorist' to suspect that in the absence of any other takers Bin Laden may well have falsely claimed the attack, not because he actually masterminded it, but instead for purposes of enhancing his prestige.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 May 11 - 12:41 PM

ObL targeted assassination was Obama's hail mary pass to get re-elected. "Congress? He don't need no stinkin' Congress!"

Does it matter? If you think so, you're kidding yourself. Zawarhiri is still out there to become another political football.

The idea that ObL was really behind 911 is becoming increasingly more ludicrous, the more information out there is available.

No one has completely debunked a "conspiracy theory" about 911. There just isn't enough information available to the public.

Forget transparency in government.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 May 11 - 12:07 PM

Richard-

The US claims that its information came from "enhanced interrogation"

A more correct phrasing of what you've posted above would be that there's an active debate within the US of whether any information derived form "enhanced interrogation" was useful or critical. It seems that the alias of the courier did first come from "enhanced interrogation" but that name was meaningless until other prisoners were interviewed with more conventional interrogation techniques and provided corroboration and more detail. Linking the courier to a phone call was the next step and then tracking him to Bin Laden's hide-a-way was the final piece in the puzzle.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 11 - 07:03 AM

You typed more words than I did yesterday Jim.
Get a life mate.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 11 - 05:48 AM

Glad you had a nice day yesterday Jim.
The weather was not so good here, but we have been very lucky in recent weeks.

I made my comment 24 hours after your early posts yesterday morning.
You did post again during the day, but not to make any contribution to the debate.
Just a snipe at me, and a refusal again to list those countries you referred to earlier.

No contribution in your last post either.

Have you given up?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 11 - 04:37 AM

"Given up." - "Maybe they read their own posts..."
And maybe they have a life away from the screen.
It is is a beautiful day here in the West of Ireland.
Yesterday we were treated to superb displays of traditional music, mainly on the uilleann pipes, from some of the most talented musicians in Ireland, many of them young Travellers - all taking place in the idyllic surroundings of the Atlantic coastline.
The sessions lasted well into the early hours of the morning.
In half an hour's time we're off again to hear more superb playing, drink more foaming pints of Guinness, and spend more time in the the company of people who share our love of music. This again will almost certainly go on into the early hours of tomorrow morning, when we will roll home with our ears ringing with wonderful music and great conversation, having partaken of probably more than enough of the hospitality of 'the blonde in the brown skirt'.
Given the choice of this, and discussing the finer points of assassination, invasion and regimes that use torture and illegal imprisonment, with two spineless individuals who don't even have the bottle to face the conclusions of their own twisted logic - sorry, no competition.
You really should try to get out more.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 11 - 04:20 AM

OBL was clearly taken completely by surprise.
He expected his friends within Pakistan security to tip him off of any such move.
I agree Richard that Pakistan was not informed.
That is why the SEALS are still living and OBL is not.
The incursion is legal if for national self defence.
Pakistan is not disputing the legality of the incursion.
Neither is the UN or any other country or organisation.

The SEALS were entitled to assume that such a fighter would be armed, and to assume a suicide belt


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 May 11 - 03:53 AM

Never trust in a man's better nature...he might not have one!

Is it Richard?..or maybe..never-mind....

You really have nothing to say..nor I to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 May 11 - 03:38 AM

I believe it is now established that the US did not inform Pakistan prior to the raid, much less seek consent. Illegal incursion unless a case of hot pursuit. Which it wasn't.

The US claims that its information came from "enhanced interrogation" - call a spade a spade - torture. Fruit of the poisonous tree.

There was no lawful warrant for the arrest of ObL.

Therefore the US had no lawful power to seek to seize ObL at that time and in that place.

Therefore to use reasonable force to resist arrest would have been lawful.

It is clearly established by US admission that ObL was unarmed. His brave wife was I think also unarmed. Against armed soldiers their efforts could have been no more than reasonable force.

Therefore the killing was unlawful. It remains to be seen whether it was a good thing in the abstract.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 May 11 - 03:13 AM

Kieth A of Hertford: "Change of heart?"

Maybe they read their own posts...
Maybe they thought of the families who lost loved ones, and considered that they were more victims, than their killer!
Maybe they thought of empathizing with children without fathers or mothers, who were on their way to work, to provide them with food, and homes, more than slick 'legal' arguments to justify why those families deserved that.
Maybe they thought that while the SEALS were rappelling down from their choppers, OBL was planning to make more orphans, and widows.....then again..
Maybe they just don't care...and were tired of embarrassing themselves...and showing other musicians, that they didn't have a heart to begin with.
Maybe they're thinking....
Maybe we're all thinking...
Maybe we should be praying for peace in the hearts of all mankind.
Maybe love really is the answer....we've tried enough alternatives...

Guest from Sanity


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 11 - 02:16 AM

Those who argued that Obama was wrong have stopped trying to defend their beliefs.
They have stopped posting.
Given up.
Change of heart?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 May 11 - 09:15 PM

"come to Canada .... you can get a much better cup of coffee at much less the cost at Tim Horton's"

Come to Maine and you can get your cup of coffee at Tim Hortons but most of us don't, or at Starbuck's either. There's still local breakfast places we can get our coffee black, when we're too lazy to brew up our own.

Anyone bothered to check out the neat videos that were released today from the raid of Bin Laden's compound? I especially liked the one where Bin Laden is shown at his Playstation gunning down aliens.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 07 May 11 - 06:25 PM

"being an outsider - you realize that your opinion and $2.00 American will get you a small cup of Starbucks coffee."

Most definitely - I assure you that I'm not as dumb as I sound..


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 07 May 11 - 06:21 PM

"being an outsider - you realize that your opinion and $2.00 American will get you a small cup of Starbucks coffee."

... come to Canada .... you can get a much better cup of coffee at much less the cost at Tim Horton's !! No one might give a rat's ass on you opinion there but what the hell eh ....

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: bobad
Date: 07 May 11 - 05:55 PM

I'm wondering if those who are spewing spittle over the Americans "violating" Pakistan's sovereignty feel the same about Afghani Taliban who regularly move into and out of Pakistan without, I am sure, checking into customs.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 May 11 - 05:35 PM

"However, I feel it is still nonetheless appropriate to judge this President according to both his words and actions."

And - being an outsider - you realize that your opinion and $2.00 American will get you a small cup of Starbucks coffee.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 May 11 - 05:33 PM

By the way, I think Obama is a crappy President!..but taking out OBL was the first promise he's ever kept!..health-care not withstanding..but that was Pelosi's and Reid's baby!
I do question the reason 'Why' he chose to to it, being as he hasn't given a damn about anything else American..but nonetheless, OBL died according to HIS rules, and by his rules! Thousands of his victims, never even were even aware that 'his rules' is what killed them! Osama was just a festering pimple on the ass of humanity, that's time to get popped just came up. Civilized people around the world are grateful. Fanatic jihadists inflamed....whiny, bleeding heart screwballs, just have to feel 'involved' to champion, some sort of 'unfairness', and use any lame excuse they can, to feel important!...You want to feel important, and useful??...Go comfort one of the many thousands of families whose loved ones were killed needlessly by the lunatic, whose time just ran out! He 'wanted' to be a 'martyr', which was just empty rhetoric, to get others to do the dirty work...Team Six merely gave him a 'helping hand'!...sorta like the 'Make-A-Wish-Foundation'. (They give terminally ill children their wish, as to 'lighten their suffering'). Now, OBL got his phony wish. You should be happy for him!

May all your wishes come true!!!!...(as long as they don't include killing innocent men women and children!!)....Osama got all of his!!
Rejoice, and be glad!...sing a folk song in his memory!..raise a toast to him for getting his 72 virgins!..He's in great shape!..that is, if you believe in that horseshit!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 07 May 11 - 04:52 PM

Don Firth: "your knee-jerk idea that Americans in general, or me personally, totally approve of the whole operation,"

I can't speak on behalf of anyone else of course, but I'm sure that no-one who has read through this thread properly could have missed that responses from US posters have been varied and considered and certainly not smugly self-congratulatory or jingoistic.

"No matter what one may think of the Obama administration, it beats the hell out of the alternative."

I believe you. And being an outsider, I really don't have a dog in that race.
However, I feel it is still nonetheless appropriate to judge this President according to both his words and actions.
The statement I referred to previously also made mention of the importance of emulating the inspirational example set by the Nuremburg trails in relation to any future capture of bin Laden:

"'What would be important would be for us to do it in a way that allows the entire world to understand the murderous acts that he's engaged in and not to make him into a martyr, and to assure that the United States government is abiding by basic conventions that would strengthen our hand in the broader battle against terrorism.'
The senator cited the Nuremberg trials as an inspiration because the liberators of Nazi-occupied Europe acted to advance universal principles and set a tone for the creation of an international order."

Quote from the Daily Mail, which isn't a preferred usual source, but it seems an unbiased report:

I Won't Make bin Laden a Martyr


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 May 11 - 04:44 PM

Well, it looks like our resident America-bashers are back at it. Perhaps they would have liked it if they would have asked 'permission' from the corrupt U.N. before they carried out a top secret mission..but then, going to the VERY corrupt U.N., would for sure, screwed up the element of surprise, because, for a price, the info would have gotten to the Pakistanis, and eventually to OBL...where he could have made an escape, to frolic in the Islam dream world, of killing everything innocent, that doesn't subscribe to one sect's or another sect's bullshit1 Now that doesn't bother our resident 'intellectuals' who can't reason past their noses..I mean, if you're are going to plan a secret attack, why not tell the whole world, before you do it??..Even though, then President Bush did just that!..which I pointed out, but the 'wonder-geniuses' can't seem to register that...speaking of which, some operations are secret..like 'Operation Overlord'...which had you have been alive, I'm sure you would have wanted Roosevelt, Eisenhower, and Churchill, to get your fucking approval....but then, maybe you're just pissed off, because you'd rather be speaking German, hating the U.S. and killing Jews!!..which happens to be consistent with the sentiments of most of your posts, even before this thread!!!! Check it out yourselves!
"Like most 'intellectuals'..they are intensely boring!" --'Dangerous Liaisons'
'We can for give those who bore us, we can NEVER forgive those who We bore!'--Wilde

Agreeing,

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 May 11 - 04:30 PM

Much of the mess that some folks are blaming "America" for started with an administration that lost the popular vote by a close margin, but through the machinations of a corrupt election system in the State of Florida (where George W. Bush's brother was Governor) and a conservative-biased Supreme Court, was put into office anyway.

From Truthout:
On Sunday, May 1, President Obama stated "al-Qaeda's leader and symbol" Osama bin Laden had been killed: "Tonight, I can report to the American people and the world that the United States has conducted an operation that killed Osama bin Laden." Less than 24 hours after President Obama made his announcement, Sarah Palin, in a speech at Colorado Christian University, said, "We thank President [George W.] Bush for having made the right calls to set up this victory." She never mentioned President Obama. The conservative Washington Times newspaper wrote, "Bin Laden's death is more Mr. Bush's victory than Mr. Obama's because American forces wouldn't even be fighting in South Asia had Democratic doves had their way." The National Review Online wrote, "Mr. Obama might have noted that this work began under President Bush, but as usual he did not."

If conservatives want to give former president Bush the credit for the capture of bin Laden, they must also ensure that he take the responsibility for the misinformation and disinformation that led us into two protracted military misadventures. Every single excuse that Cheney/Bush provided to the American people for invading Afghanistan and Iraq proved to be false.

•   The 9/11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia, not Afghanistan.
•   No weapons of mass destruction (WMDs) were found in Iraq.
•   No relationship between Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden tied Hussein to 9/11.
•   No attempt from Saddam to purchase "yellow cake" uranium from Niger was ever documented.

According to Iraq on the Record, a report prepared for Rep. Henry Waxman (D-California) in 2004, prior to the war in Iraq, Bush, Vice President Richard Cheney, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of State Colin Powell and National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice, "made misleading statements about the threat posed by Iraq in 125 public appearances consisting of 40 speeches, 26 press conferences and briefings, 53 interviews, 4 written statements, and 2 congressional testimonies. The report ... identifies 237 specific misleading statements ... Most of the statements ... were misleading because they expressed certainty where none existed or failed to acknowledge the doubts of intelligence officials. Ten of the statements were simply false." Bush took action, but it was based upon the false narrative that his administration created.

If conservatives want to give Bush the credit for the capture of bin Laden, why didn't they take him in 2001, just ten weeks after 9/11? In July of 2009, 60 Minutes reported that in November 2001, Delta Force troops, "Using radio intercepts and other intelligence, the CIA pinpointed bin Laden in the mountains near the border of Pakistan. According to a Delta commander being interviewed, "We're about 2,000 meters away from where we think bin Laden's at still ... bin Laden was on the radio. The CIA, Delta and their Afghan allies were listening." They failed to even attempt to engage him. Their plans of attack were never approved. "How often does Delta come up with a tactical plan that's disapproved by higher headquarters?" Pelley from 60 Minutes asks. "In my experience, said a former Delta commander, in my five years at Delta, never before." They either have to take credit or responsibility.

Conservatives can't have their cake and eat it, too.
This is the same administration that authorized such things as "waterboarding" and "enhanced interrogation" (euphemisms for torture), and "extraordinary rendition," so they wouldn't have to watch.

No matter what one may think of the Obama administration, it beats the hell out of the alternative.

Put the onus where it belongs!! Barack Obama got stuck with the thankless task of trying to cleam up the septic tank that the Bush/Cheney administration dumped on the nation and the world.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 May 11 - 02:25 PM

"Don, pretending that waterboarding is not torture is pretty silly."

You, too, Richard?

Will you people stop trying to put words in my mouth? PTUI!! I am NOT "pretending" that waterboarding is not torture. I am unalterably opposed to any form of torture no matter who does it, and I deeply resent your and Jim's accusations that I condone it.

You both seem to be assuming that the information that led to locating bin Laden came solely from torture, knowing really nothing about the intelligence processes that were actually used. Never even took into account the detail and accuracy available from spy satellites, for one thing. Capable of identifying the make and model of an automobile from 200 miles up, for example—AND often, of recognizing people. And that was one of their capabilities twenty years ago. I suspect they've made substantial advances since. Somewhat less high-tech, perhaps, are overflights with drones, which, believe me, have been on the prowl for some time, and are NOT solely used for "killing civilians," as you keep accusing American forces of using them for. And remember--American forces are not the ONLY ones there! You conveniently forget that this has been a joint operation from the start.

". . . although the US is claiming that its torture regime found ObL. . . ."

REALLY?   Who said THAT? Dick Cheney? And you accept the idea that people like that speak for the entire American citizenry?

Now, I'm fully aware that there are a lot of very iffy issues about tracking down bin Laden, and what might ultimately grow out of it, and there will be a lot of dissections and investigations of it in the future—done by American jurists, and, of course, by politicians of various stripes. That's inevitable.

But your knee-jerk idea that Americans in general, or me personally, totally approve of the whole operation, especially the possibility of the use of (and call it what it is!) torture, are insulting, offensive, holier-than-thou, and blatant evidence of rank prejudice.

SHAME!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 11 - 01:35 PM

Wait no longer Jim!
I have already given my opinion on a US incursion into Britain, and the other matter is outside the scope of this thread.
I will oblige as soon as you reopen one of the many threads on the subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 07 May 11 - 01:28 PM

"Who knows what might have happened? ... whether Bin Laden's natural death, saving him (presumably by God's will) from his enemies, would have inspired his followers even more.
Decisions for action have to be based on the known or probable ... sometimes those decisions are wrong. This one, I believe, was right."

Lighter, well I think I may differ with you there somewhat.
As to the "known or probable", well Obama himself made a statement a few years ago (I can't summon the quotes offhand) amounting to a promise that Bin Laden would never be made a martyr on his watch.

Of course Obama was clearly aware of the power of martyrdom and the serious danger implied by making Bin Laden a martyr to the cause of extreme Islamists. Martyrs are those who sacrifice themselves for their cause - not old men who die peacefully in their sleep, and arguably there's no better death for a wannabe martyr than getting "executed in cold blood" (as it has been represented by some) by one's enemy during a controversial midnight raid.

That said, I respect your view and while I don't know any better than you what the outcome of this will be, I am always happy to exchange civilly expressed differences of opinion..


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 11 - 01:15 PM

"Jim, I hope you are not still compiling that list."
Will be ready when you give us your thoughts about the US use of torture and imprisonment without trial, and the wisdom of giving free access to your country to such a nation
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: gnu
Date: 07 May 11 - 01:08 PM

He's on video tape... turn on your TV news.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Donuel
Date: 07 May 11 - 11:57 AM

Jim, there are plenty of people who complain about the legality.
I whole hearteldy accept my humanity and remain homest about the hypocrisy of being a blood thirsty pacifist. The most Chrstian cheek turning enemy loving person is not a fanatic in certain circumstances. Murdering a genocidal rich fanatic is one of those cases where humanity is tested and left wanting. I know this is no more profound than saying "it is what it is" but in this world of food chains that is the way it is.

Nature makes mistakes, people make mistakes and I wager even bacteria makes mistakes.

The dilemma of enforcing our law outside our border with or without the UN or International courts is settled by one factor. Might makes right. This was evidenced when a Belgian COurt was forced to back down from thier indictment and arrest warrent for Dick Cheney and Rumsfeld. Whatever they were threatened with, worked.



What has the CIA learned from Usama's villa and personal effects?
He used American products like Vasoline.
Planned rail and bridge attacks.
Was more a prisoner of Pakistan than a guest.
Was not very computer savvy.
When it came to movies he was a big VIn Diesel Fast and Furious fan.




What we have learned that is surprising is that Usama bin Laden, one of 55 children of a common father slept on a cheap water bed and had over a dozen pot plants growing in a room off his bedroom.
Imagine if he had been captured and some of the charges at his indictment in his Gitmo tribunal, included growing pot, bigamy, aiding the deliquency of minors, sodomy, conspiracy to commit murder, interferring with the business of Wall St,


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 May 11 - 11:55 AM

Fuck him..he's dead..get over it!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 07 May 11 - 10:42 AM

It's a valid point of view, lively, but it's a question that could (and can) never be answered. Who knows what might have happened? Bin Laden could even have died of a sudden heart attack minutes before the raiders got there. That wouldn't mean they shouldn't have gone. Or whether Bin Laden's natural death, saving him (presumably by God's will) from his enemies, would have inspired his followers even more.

Decisions for action have to be based on the known or probable rather than on the completely unknown or unknowable.

Because the world is as it is and humans are fallible, sometimes those decisions are wrong. This one, I believe, was right.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 11 - 10:29 AM

Jim, I hope you are not still compiling that list.
I only asked for a short list of the major countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: bobad
Date: 07 May 11 - 10:17 AM

That's all just speculation for now, remove the tumour first and deal with any potential complications as they arise.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 07 May 11 - 10:13 AM

"I am not arguing for a moment that he should not have been killed.
Of course he should have been killed."

Yes, of course the speaker there wasn't responding to the question of a supposed moral case involving "the lesser of two evils" - I was.

The "moral case" Lighter put forward based on "the lesser of two evils", was founded on the premise that Bin Laden would be a more dangerous figure alive than dead - others however - such as the speaker in that clip, argue differently. I think it's a valid point of view.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 11 - 09:59 AM

From Livlely's link, 1m 20secs in.
"I am not arguing for a moment that he should not have been killed.
Of course he should have been killed."


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 07 May 11 - 09:42 AM

"the moral principle of choosing the lesser of two evils"

As has already been discussed here, I suppose that depends on what you consider the "two evils" to actually be? Bin Laden is already being described as "Obi Wan Bin Laden" online for example, or in other words, more powerful dead than alive.

Here are some considered comments on the possible long term fallout of this incident and the dangerous potential consequences of a resultant "redirection of the Arab spring":

Ed Husain, Senior Fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, says that Osama bin Laden is more valuable to al-Qaeda dead than alive.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: bobad
Date: 07 May 11 - 09:35 AM

The only people I see disagreeing are this sites usual malcontents and other terrorists like Hamas that they side with.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 11 - 09:14 AM

"There is also the moral principle of choosing the lesser of two evils: invade one house in Pakistan for forty minutes or let Bin Laden plot ten thousand more deaths."
Indeed Lighter.
Who will disagree?
Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 07 May 11 - 09:09 AM

One of CNN's regular legal commentators (in other words, not someone specially selected to address this case) says that it is legal under international law to seize a suspect like Bin Laden in another country if it can be shown that that country "is unable or unwilling" to extradite him or otherwise bring him to justice.

She suggested that the fact that Bin Laden had been living for years less than a mile from a military installation while Pakistan knew he was wanted internationally was prima facie evidence that Pakistan was unwilling or unable to deal with him.

I suppose that questions may still be raised (in theory) about how many of the shots actually fired by the Americans were "legal" or "illegal," but international law would seem to have been observed. As it is never observed by Al Qaida.

There is also the moral principle of choosing the lesser of two evils: invade one house in Pakistan for forty minutes or let Bin Laden plot ten thousand more deaths.

As far as I'm concerned, case closed.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 May 11 - 08:02 AM

Sailors, actually.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 11 - 07:41 AM

Thanks for that endorsement Lively.
It would have been legal to make an attempt on his life.
It is illegal to order soldiers to kill a prisoner.
If such an order was given, it would not have been on the record, and we shall never know.


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