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BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???

Jim Carroll 07 Jun 11 - 05:16 PM
Don Firth 07 Jun 11 - 10:31 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 11 - 01:15 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jun 11 - 04:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 11 - 04:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 11 - 04:31 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Jun 11 - 04:58 AM
GUEST,Jon 08 Jun 11 - 05:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 11 - 05:55 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jun 11 - 06:46 AM
Silas 08 Jun 11 - 06:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 11 - 06:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 11 - 06:55 AM
Silas 08 Jun 11 - 07:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 11 - 07:13 AM
Silas 08 Jun 11 - 07:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 11 - 07:48 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jun 11 - 08:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 11 - 08:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 11 - 08:54 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jun 11 - 09:39 AM
MGM·Lion 08 Jun 11 - 11:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 11 - 11:41 AM
Silas 08 Jun 11 - 12:01 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Jun 11 - 01:12 PM
Don Firth 08 Jun 11 - 03:26 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 11 - 03:34 PM
Don Firth 08 Jun 11 - 05:30 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Jun 11 - 08:38 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Jun 11 - 08:45 PM
Don Firth 08 Jun 11 - 09:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 11 - 01:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 11 - 01:22 AM
Silas 09 Jun 11 - 01:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 11 - 02:01 AM
GUEST,Jon 09 Jun 11 - 02:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 11 - 02:41 AM
Silas 09 Jun 11 - 02:56 AM
Silas 09 Jun 11 - 03:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 11 - 03:05 AM
Silas 09 Jun 11 - 03:15 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 11 - 03:52 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 11 - 03:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 11 - 03:55 AM
Silas 09 Jun 11 - 05:58 AM
Teribus 09 Jun 11 - 10:31 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 11 - 10:46 AM
Teribus 09 Jun 11 - 12:12 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 11 - 12:55 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 11 - 01:16 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 05:16 PM

Don,
Nobody has accused the American people of these crimes - the finger is pointed at your various governmets who have overseen these atrocities.
I re-read the article, which says torture shouldn't happen, indicating that it still does. "We're doing everything we can to strengthen the consensus against torture."   
We don't know if the special rendition flights still happen, but we do know they were happening a couple of years ago.
Obama promised to close Guantanamo, yet it remains, with 80 odd prisoners still being held there, uncharged and untried, in intolerable conditions.
America has a fairly recent history to live down, and until it comes clean and says that these atrocities no longer happen (unlike you, I doubt if anybody's head will roll for them), any claim for the fight against terrorism will continue to ring very hollow.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 10:31 PM

". . . I re-read the article, which says torture shouldn't happen, indicating that it still does."

Non sequitur.

Saying that torture shouldn't happen does NOT mean that it's still happening. What they are saying is that it should not even be considered. And they are taking to task those who are claiming that it should be used--the ones who authorized it in the first place. This matter is far from settled.

You have a great gift for twisting anything to fit your pre-conceived notions.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 01:15 AM

"Separating the assassination of bin Laden from the Middle East situation in general is, as far as I'm concerned, insane."

The Arab Spring has left al Qaeda marginalised and irrelevant.
They have been trying to overthrow the likes of Mubarak for twenty years or more.
Ordinary pro-democratic people managed it peacefully in a few weeks where extreme violence and anti-democracy failed.
(A lesson for Ireland's dissidents if the lesson of US Civil Rights movement was not enough.)

No doubt they will try to exploit the power vacuum, but ordinary decent Arabs have no time for them.
There has been no outcry over his killing on the Arab Street.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 04:11 AM

"ordinary decent Arabs have no time for them."
The Arab spring still hangs in the balance.
There has been open fighting between Christians and Muslims in Egypt, Yemen is heavily influenced by Muslim extremism, Syria and Bahrain is resisting any reforms with extreme violence (the latter with British trained special forces), Gadaffi is still hanging on by his fingernails in Libya, not one country so far is in a position to plan a future and the religious militants are waiting in the wings for a chance to jump into the gap.
Nothing has been "achieved" yet.
"There has been no outcry over his killing"
Nor has there been any support for it - which is probably much more significant.
Everything hangs in the balance and to claim it doesn't is sheer, arrogantly stupid complacency - our behaviour, past and present, has meant that we really don't have many friends, "ordinary decent" or otherwise" in the Arab world, (except a handful of feudal despots, ex-rulers or deposed) and the training of the special forces of feudal regimes or the killing and maiming of civilians isn't going to win us too many.
"A lesson for Ireland's dissidents"
And for those who have attempted to suppress any calls for change militarily and with extreme force, such as the shooting down unarmed demonstrators, the Diplock Courts, and the jailing of innocents who would undoubtedly have been executed had we still retained the quaint old custom of capital punishment.
"You have a great gift for twisting anything"
And you have a great gift for avoiding the real issues by putting up straw men and arguing against something that has not been suggested; this is the nearest you have come to admitting that torture has even happened, and you have yet to recognise that Guantanamo even exists, let alone condemning it.
I caught the end of a feature film called 'Special Rendition' last night which depicted a British Asian being picked up on the streets somewhere in Southern England by American and British agents, flown to an unnamed country and tortured until he signed a confession for something he knew nothing about - a work of fiction, but claimed to have been based on an actual event. The message flashed up on the screen at the end was that there have been over 1,100 such cases of 'suspects' having been taken by CIA and British agents and sent abroad since 2002 - this is the reputation that goes before you and which you need to openly discuss.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 04:26 AM

"Nothing has been "achieved" yet"
Of course it has Jim.
Tunisia and Egypt, regimes overturned.
Yemen, leader ousted.
These are regimes that have resisted all reforms for decades.

The scale of the popular demonstrations in Syria, utterly unprecedented and whatever happens the regime will be forced to reform.

"Nor has there been any support for it (OBL's killing) - which is probably much more significant."

It just emphasises that Al Qaeda is no longer relevant to Arabs.

You have failed to make any case against the operation Jim.

Just irrelevant, dead issues, made up accusations and personal abuse.

Even Pakistan does not care about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 04:31 AM

In an independent Egyptian daily, al-Shorouq, Imad Eddin Hussein condemns Mr bin Laden and his approach to Islamic liberation as an utter failure:

God have mercy on Osama bin Laden… He did everything he thought he could to serve the Muslim cause. But in the end, if America and Israel had launched a multi-trillion dollar campaign to demonise Muslims, they couldn't have done a better job… Al-Qaeda ended up killing more Muslims than anyone else. They inflicted indescribable damage on the Muslim nation, while failing to inflict any real damage on the West…For us to confront the West, we need to be strong. But we will only become strong when we become free, well-educated citizens of democratic nations. If we could achieve that, Israel would not be able to push us around—the West would not be able to occupy our lands. Who knows—maybe they would start giving us the respect we deserve without us having to fire a single shot. But for us to simplistically reduce our relationship with the West either to complete subordination (à la Hosni Mubarak) or perpetual clash (as bin Laden would have had it)—that is the real tragedy.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 04:58 AM

Wow Keith! Very interesting article, assuming that is accurate, in it's reflection of their mind set. It would be interesting if America, as well, could be united in confronting its real enemies of our Freedom!!
It remains to be seen, in either instance.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 05:41 AM

It would be interesting if America, as well, could be united in confronting its real enemies of our Freedom!!

That, I think is the key question...


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 05:55 AM

"And for those who have attempted to suppress any calls for change militarily and with extreme force,"

We must not debate Ireland here Jim, but Britain did not do that.
It accepted many changes such that the NI Civil Rights Association disbanded because its claims were all met.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 06:46 AM

No Keith - nothing has been achieved yet in the way of the direction that these countries will take, whether it will be to embracing fundamentalist practices or democratic ones.
Newspaper articles, no matter how independent, do not speak for the people as a whole, or even those who are going to bring about any changes, certainly not at this stage of the game, and one article in one newspaper can in no way give anything like an accurate picture of the thinking or even the events in these countries.
The future of all of these countries hang in the balance, the future is totally undecided and instead of (your) spurious comparisons with Ireland, perhaps it is far more apposite to remember what happened when the Shah fell in Iran, an event that opened up this whole can of worms.
That al Qaeda is no longer relevant is an extremely dangerous and irresponsible assumption - certainly not the case in Yemen; we have no idea whatever of the situation anywhere else.
And please stop whining about personal abuse and the "accusations" are well enough recorded not to require further mention.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Silas
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 06:50 AM

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-intelligence-classified-white-phosphorus-as-chemical-weapon-516523.html

Worth a read?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 06:54 AM

"the future is totally undecided "
Obviously.
As I said earlier, "No doubt they (Islamists) will try to exploit the power vacuum"

You can not dismiss what has happened in just a few weeks as " no achievement" and you have still not made any case against the OBL action.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 06:55 AM

Thanks Silas (yawn).


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Silas
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 07:08 AM

Sorry Keith, I know it is not as riveting as your post about who said what about you and when, but it does have the merit of being relavent tio this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 07:13 AM

Relevant to Jim's diversion from the thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Silas
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 07:29 AM

OK Keith, perhaps you can tell me what you think about the other people who were assasinated during the 'Get Bin Laden' operation?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 07:48 AM

I would say that the number of caualties was remarkably small for such an operation.
None of the children were hurt, and the adults present must have been complicit.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 08:26 AM

"and you have still not made any case against the OBL action."
Nobody has made a case for or against the action, the whole situation is in the balance, which is why it is gratuitous nonsense to claim that "Al Qaeda is no longer relevant to Arabs." .
The assassination was an act of revenge, nothing more, and it has, at best. done nothing to improve the situation in the middle east; it might have seriously effected the signs of change there; we've yet to find out.
"yawn"
Facts can be boring sometimes, not to mention embarrassing. Wonder what our absent friend Terrorist will make of it?
Well done in bringing this particular issue to a satisfactory conclusion Silas
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 08:50 AM

Jim
"it is gratuitous nonsense to claim that "Al Qaeda is no longer relevant to Arabs." ."

Here is some more of it Jim.


How the Arab Spring Made Bin Laden an Afterthought
By Rania Abouzeid / Beirut

During these past few months of momentous political upheaval in the Middle East, Al-Qaeda's leaders were barely seen or heard. Their feeble attempts to claim a role in unshackling Arabs from their decades-old, repressive (and largely pro-American) regimes were ignored. In many ways, Osama bin Laden and his band of extremist brothers were already largely irrelevant in this region long before news of the terror mastermind's death in Pakistan. The movement was marginalized and "little more than a symbol as a result of his past achievements," as Peter Harling, a Middle East analyst with the International Crisis Group, told TIME.


Shadi Hamid, director of research at the Brookings Doha Center and a fellow at the Saban Center for Middle East Policy at the Brookings Institution, says that in recent years, Al-Qaeda morphed from an organization into an idea, "and the idea has proven increasingly unattractive to most Arabs," he tweeted. "Bin Laden, Hamid says, "presided over Al-Qaeda's turn toward irrelevance the past five years."


, says Olivier Roy, a professor at the European University Institute in Italy, and one of the world's foremost experts on Islam Roy says, "but the bigger blow was already dealt. "It wasn't making headlines in the Middle East, it ceased to be at the core of the region's issues."

While Reuters reported that the Palestinian militant group Hamas released a statement condemning the "assassination" of an "Arab holy warrior," the Palestinian Authority had a very different take on bin Laden's take down. Spokesman Ghassan Khatib said bin Laden's death "is good for the cause of peace worldwide." In Yemen, a member of Al-Qaeda contacted by AFP called the killing a "catastrophe."


"It's certainly coincidence that the two events are linked in time, but in fact it's logical because the death of bin Laden symbolized the marginalization of Al-Qaeda in the Middle East," Roy says.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2068931,00.html


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 08:54 AM

Jim,
"Nobody has made a case for or against the action,"

Not true Jim.
We have put up a lot of pros, but no cons from you.
The Arabs are happy, Pakistan is happy.
What exactly is your objection?
Is it just that it was a US operation, and a resounding success?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 09:39 AM

We can all do that Keith, if we wish to score points. It is far to early to make any such claims, especially based on a couple of articles
Jim Carroll

Reaction in the Arab world to the claim Osama bin Laden is dead has run the full range; from despair to disbelief, to calls for revenge, and happiness a killer's career is over.
In the Gaza strip Hamas's leader Ismail Haniyeh was guarded, yet also clear he saw no change for the better coming from it:
"If the news is correct, we regard this as a continuation of the American policy that is based on oppression and shedding the Muslim and Arab blood."
Saudi Arabia, which stripped bin Laden of his citizenship, hoped his death would help the fight against terror, but in his ancestral home Yemen people on the streets of Sanaa appeared divided on the issue:
"His death is normal of course. This man's name is connected with committing many wrongdoings, hurting Islam more than benefitting it, what can we say? Killing him was right."
"Killing him without any justification, whether he's bin Laden or not bin Laden, this loss of blood is haram is haram is haram – is Forbidden."
"If Osama bin Laden has really died and they killed him as they claim, a thousand Osama Bin Ladens will appear, God willing." Just three reactions, but all different.
Benghazi in rebel-held Libya has other things on its mind, remembering the fallen of its struggle on a martyr's wall, but here too there were voices raised for and against the terrorist leader.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 11:40 AM

===The assassination was an act of revenge, nothing more===

Jim, you know that I make it a principle to use only moderate language on this forum, & have done so for the last 2 years. & also that I am ambivalent about this thread as a whole.

BUT regarding above comment of yours

DOUBLE BOLLOCKS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 11:41 AM

Jim, You can describe an opinion as "insane" and "gratuitous nonsense" if it is just me, but not when such well informed people are saying it.
And what are your quotes worth?
Just vox pops from Yemen!
I was forcefully told that vox pops were worthless a couple of weeks ago.
Except the Hamas quote.
My post acknowledged that they are out of line with Arab thinking.
Not surprising as they are the old kind of regime, authoritarian and undemocratic, that Arabs are busy kicking out just now.
Also, they are a West hating terrorist organisation, so not surprising they agree with you.

Are you going to tell us why you think OBL should not have been killed now?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Silas
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 12:01 PM

Errr, Kieth, I don't think anyone is suggesting that OBL did not deserve what he got, the problem is the manner in which it was done, which was so wrong on so many levels.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 01:12 PM

Mike - compliments returned - if it was a serious attempt to bring him to justice there would have been some effort to capture him and bring him to stand trial. Rather they were prepared to slaughter a compound full of mainly women and children rather than let him escape and no effort whatever was made to bring him back alive - shot squarely in the face while attempting to escape - come on!!
"well informed people"
Hiding behind selected experts again Keith - look up the varying reports of the response to his killing rather than seizing on the first convenient one.
Incidently, Pakistan was one of those listed as being both angry and disturbed at what happened, contrary to your claims.
There are full breakdowns of the varied responses throughout the world if you care to do your homework properly.
"Also, they are a West hating terrorist organisation, so not surprising they agree with you."
One again a deliberate distortion of what I have put forward - as I said earlier, always a sign that you have run out of steam:
My earlier contribution sums up exactly my own feelings about the whole affair - from an American, and I believe that of others who find it distasteful.
"In 1945, Robert H Jackson, the chief United States prosecutor, said in a court in Nuremberg: "That four great nations, flushed with victory and stung with injury stay the hand of vengeance and voluntarily submit their captive enemies to the judgment of the law is one of the most significant tributes that Power ever has paid to Reason."
That would have been justice and not the act of revenge I believe it was.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 03:26 PM

". . . you have yet to recognise that Guantanamo even exists, let alone condemning it."

You're scraping the bottom of the barrel, Jim!

Just because I haven't mentioned something doesn't mean I don't recognize that it exists or that I don't condemn it. I'm dreadfully sorry if I haven't mentioned to you that I'm aware that slavery was rife in the southern United States prior to the Civil War, but I do know about it and I condemn it wholeheartedly. Sorry I haven't mentioned that, just in case you were about to accuse me of condoning slavery as well as applauding waterboarding.

I—and a lot of other outraged American citizens—worked very hard to get George W. Bush and his puppet-master, Dick Cheney, out of office, and now we're working hard to keep the regime that approved that sort of thing out of power.

You, sir, are a veritable fount of pointless cheap shots.

But if that's all you've got, then. . . .

And it's STILL patently obvious that your sympathies lie with Osama bin Laden, a man who is responsible for planning the deaths of thousands pf innocent civilians. How many MORE deaths would you regard as just peachy-keen before you'd think it acceptable for someone to do something about him?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 03:34 PM

We have not been told the exact circumstances.
We do know he was in his bedroom, so he could not have been "running away."

We can be sure that the possibility of an explosive belt was considered.
In any case, a combatant can legally be killed unless actually surrendering.
Either one of those factors would justify killing him.

We have been through all this before, so what is your actual objection?

"flushed with victory "
That is the salient point.
That war was over. They were no longer combatants.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 05:30 PM

"Rather they were prepared to slaughter a compound full of mainly women and children. . . ."

And you know that for a fact, eh, Jim? You were there? Or are you clairvoyant?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 08:38 PM

""And it's STILL patently obvious that your sympathies lie with Osama bin Laden, a man who is responsible for planning the deaths of thousands pf innocent civilians. How many MORE deaths would you regard as just peachy-keen before you'd think it acceptable for someone to do something about him?""

How many MORE deaths would you regard as just peachy-keen provided that Bin Laden was one of them?

Into how many allied countries would you regard it as just peachy-keen to send special forces, if it suited you to do so?

Screw ObL, he got what he deserved, but in the process a lot of people lost any trust that they might previously have had in US integrity.

That'll come back to bite one day.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 08:45 PM

""I would say that the number of caualties was remarkably small for such an operation.
None of the children were hurt, and the adults present must have been complicit.
""

Yes Keith, The ease and the cold, callous unconcern with which you are able to write off the lives of men women and children as being insignificant providing the soldiers "get it done" has been well documented, and makes me ashamed to share Nationality with you.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 09:04 PM

"Screw ObL, he got what he deserved, but in the process a lot of people lost any trust that they might previously have had in US integrity."

You and Jim Carroll.

You keep talking about indefinite but large numbers killed in the raid, striving to make it sound like the Battle of Armageddon. It was my understanding that there were only a couple of casualties other than bin Laden. You have any authoritative figures? And where did you get them?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 01:15 AM

Two men and a woman died.
They must have known who he was, what he had done, and that he was a target.
They chose to link their destiny to his and join in his martyrdom.
And they were combatants.

Had OBL been allowed to continue planning mass casualty operations, unknown numbers more would have been slaughtered.
Don T, 9/11 was the highest number of our nationality ever killed in a single terror outrage.
50+ Londoners died in 7/7 and many more live on maimed, mutilated and disfigured.
Those who died in the compound were actively working to kill more of our people Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 01:22 AM

I almost forgot Don T.
A friend of my brother from Cornwall was among the Brits killed by OBL in Bali.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Silas
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 01:56 AM

"9/11 was the highest number of our nationality ever killed in a single terror outrage."

Exactly.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 02:01 AM

Exactly.

Don T how many of our Nationality are you not ashamed of?
Your ex army brothers?
What is there opinion on this Don T?
People at the pub and folk club?
People at the Conservative Club?

You will not find many in our country who would want him given another chance.
Are you ashamed of all of us Don T?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 02:14 AM

Had OBL been allowed to continue planning mass casualty operations, unknown numbers more would have been slaughtered.

Or would it have made any difference, Keith?

Following what was described as a revenge attack in Pakistan, you seemed to be arguing Bin Laden's death made no difference and posted (amongst others posts):

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 May 11 - 03:24 AM

The Pakistan bombs are just the latest in a series that have been going on in Pakistan for years.
Each bomb is justified by the bombers as a reprisal for some recent actions by Pakistan.
If ObL had not been killed some other justification would have been given for this week's bombs.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 02:41 AM

Jon, those bombs were probably already planned, and anyway were just 30 minutes drive from the tribal regions.
Throw the stuff in the back and drive to familiar locations.
Not complex operations like attacking Western countries.
That was OBL's speciality.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Silas
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 02:56 AM

Ther have been some 10,000 civilian deaths in Afghanistan and probably ten times that number in Iraq since Bush and Blair invaded - but it don't matter does it, they are not democratic western citizens, they don't really count do they.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Silas
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 03:02 AM

"A friend of my brother from Cornwall was among the Brits killed by OBL in Bali"


And your point is exactly?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 03:05 AM

Silas, does that advance this debate an inch?
The wars and their costs have been discussed here in great depth over and over and over.

Now, why do you think that the operation should not have been successfully carried out?

Jim,
"Pakistan was one of those listed as being both angry and disturbed at what happened"

Almost as angry and disturbed as they were about one pastor in one church burning one book.

So, not very angry and disturbed.
Any other reason for leaving OBL to his plotting?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Silas
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 03:15 AM

"Now, why do you think that the operation should not have been successfully carried out?"

Because it was illegal, it sets a very dangerous precedent, it effectively says that if the world's biggest superpower can ignore protocols like informing a country that it is about to launch an attack on a specific target within its territory, that the aim was clearly to kill, not to capture, that no regard was taken of any other casualties in the raid, that the body was illegally disposed of then it is a clear message that terrorism by what is regarded as the world's policeman, is OK, and if it is OK for America, then it follows that it is OK for anyone else to do this. China, Pakistan, Israel or whoever you like, we have no moral high ground any more from which to attempt to apply moderation to other aggressors.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 03:52 AM

"And you know that for a fact, eh, Jim? You were there? Or are you clairvoyant?"
Didn't need my ouija board Don - those who planned the raid had an almost exact account of who was in the compound prior to the raid, gathered beforehand and given to the troops, who carried that information with them - 8 women, 13 children and either 4 or 5 adult males - my lousy maths makes that 21 non- combatants in all. Added to this are the domestic dwellings in the immediate area, many of them adjacent to the compound, also the busy public road nearby. Using a 2,000 bomb would, in the US's own words have been "a major public relations disaster", .
All this was covered here by The Sunday Times in a comprehensive series of reports, including overhead maps of the area.
I have never mentioned "large numbers" being killed on the raid, I know there weren't. My concern is for the the total disregard for the lives of non-combatants in order to carry out what was, in my opinion, an unnecessary assassination - behaviour we have long come to expect from the US in the field, and are seldom disappointed.
"And it's STILL patently obvious that your sympathies lie with Osama bin Laden"
And you still deliberately distort mine and others opinions in order to defend your country's appalling and continuing human rights record - the only people here supporting terrorism are those defending or excusing US behaviour, particularly in regard (or in the US's case, disregard) towards civilians.   
I think the articles were based on information supplied by Reuters, but can't really remember.   
"We have not been told the exact circumstances."
The first of these articles also carried the information that he was unarmed and was shot directly in the face while fleeing; the only mention of possible armed resistance was that it was thought his son may have been armed (it turned out he wasn't), which was the reason given for his being shot.
"Had OBL been allowed to continue planning mass casualty operations"
There is no information regarding bin Laden's direct or planning role in operations and it is generally thought that he didn't have one, but was a spiritual and inspirational leader; maybe you should pass on the unique information you appear to have to those who can make better use of it.
Among the reports following his death is the fact that al-Quaeda has long ceased to be a definable organisation, but rather, many worldwide unconnected groups linked only by a philosophy - rather like The Mafia. It was suggested that, if it did exist as an identifiable entity, even on a national basis, it could have been dealt with long ago.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 03:54 AM

"So, not very angry and disturbed."
Angry enough to demand an international inquiry.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 03:55 AM

"Because it was illegal,"

We discussed the legality early on.
Most expert opinion was that it WAS legal.
Nothing against that from UN, The Hague or even Pakistan.

" it sets a very dangerous precedent,"
Yes. Perhaps it will deter some future terrorists.

" it effectively says that if the world's biggest superpower can ignore protocols like informing a country that it is about to launch an attack on a specific target within its territory,"
Obama was at pains to justify that.

"that the aim was clearly to kill, not to capture,"

That is not clear at all.

" that no regard was taken of any other casualties in the raid,"

Obama must have been tempted to just bomb the compound and kill everyone.
Had the Seals suffered heavy casualties, or the raid degenerated into a Jimmy Carter style fiasco, he would have been very politically damaged.
A brave decision I think.

" that the body was illegally disposed of"
Yes, but as with the whole situation, it was by far the lesser of evils.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Silas
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 05:58 AM

OK Keith, you carry on defending the indefensible, that is your right, I question your capacity to actually think for yourself though, it seems to me that you have fallen for the lies and propaganda that eminates from your govermnment just as much as the 'Ruskies' fell for the same under communist rule. Try shaking off the conventions of how Americans are 'supposed' to think and try to be a little objective and try questiuoning things occasionally - you may yet surprise yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 10:31 AM

1: "8 women, 13 children and either 4 or 5 adult males - my lousy maths makes that 21 non- combatants in all."

Why do you automatically assume that the 8 women are non-combatants?

2: "the domestic dwellings in the immediate area, many of them adjacent to the compound"

Here are aerial photographs of the "compound" and a drawing detailing 12'; 13'; & 18' perimeter concrete walls:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/02/bin-laden-compound-abbottabad-google-maps_n_856225.html

The 2,000lb bomb would have killed everybody inside the compound damage outside would have been fairly slight, I expect that you have witnessed the effects of a 2,000lb bomb detonating Jim? If you haven't then the walls deflect the blast upwards before they themselves are knocked down, the shock wave always takes the line of least resistance.

3: "the only people here supporting terrorism are those defending or excusing US behaviour, particularly in regard (or in the US's case, disregard) towards civilians."

Okay for civilian deaths let's just have a look at Afghanistan since 14th April 1978.

April 1978 to October 2001:

Between 2,100,000 to 2,700,000 Afghan citizens killed by Afghan Communists; Soviet 40th Army; Mujahideen War-Lords; Taliban. Over the period that works out using the lower figure at a daily average of 248 Afghan civilians killed every single day for that 23 year period

October 2001 to December 2010:

Since 7th October 2001 there has been an international force operating inside Afghanistan charged with the protection of the general population. Since October 2001 taking the worst case estimates some 35,000 Afghan civilians have been killed in Afghanistan 80% of those have been killed by the Anti-Government Forces (Afghan Taliban; Hekmatyar; Haqqani; Pakistan Taliban; Al-Qaeda). Over the period that works out at a daily average of 10 Afghan civilians killed every single day for that 10 year period. Since ISAF have taken charge throughout Afghanistan (2006) the daily average of Afghan civilians killed each day has dropped to 5 per day of whom 4 are killed by the Taliban.

Don't know how good your mathematics is Jim but I make that a reduction in the average daily total of civilian deaths in Afghanistan of some 96%. And for this US Forces are to be condemned, best ask the citizens of Afghanistan how quickly and how eagerly they wish for a return of the "Good Old Days"

4: "The first of these articles also carried the information that he was unarmed and was shot directly in the face while fleeing"

Anything strike you as being odd about that? How on earth can you be shot in the face whilst fleeing? If you are fleeing you are running away. To be shot in the face you must be running towards, unless of course Osama bin Laden was running backwards at the time.

A combatant running is a legitimate target, a combatant standing still with his hands open over his head is surrendering and is not.

Personally I found at the time a number of strange things about this:

a: If the orders were get him dead or alive then OK that is a judgement call on whoever it is that first comes upon him. As you seem to believe the tale he was running therefore a legitimate target, as nobody could tell for certain what he was running for or towards.

b: If it was an ordered assassination then no-one in the compound would have been left alive and no-one would ever have known that the raid actually took place.

c: What if the man in the compound was not bin Laden? Then he would have to have been shot. His body would have to have been spirited away and disposed of where no-one could ever find it and examine it. The raid and the death of bin Laden would be publicised to the high heavens and shouted from the roof tops. WHY all of this? Because it would then force Al-Qaeda to either produce bin Laden alive to refute the claim of his death, or confirm bin Laden as being dead.

All I know for certain is that the raid and the result of the raid was shouted from the roof-tops, there have been no photographs shown of the dead body that clearly show him as being Osama bin Laden and they made absolutely sure that the body will never be recovered for examination and Al-Qaeda did confirm that Osama bin Laden was dead beyond all shadow of a doubt.

5: "There is no information regarding bin Laden's direct or planning role in operations and it is generally thought that he didn't have one, but was a spiritual and inspirational leader; maybe you should pass on the unique information you appear to have to those who can make better use of it."

1996 - Khalid Sheikh Mohammed proposes the idea of what eventually became the 9/11 attacks to Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan. The plan is rejected by OBL as being over-elaborate and on too grand a scale, OBL's objection is that with those numbers involved it would never be kept secret. On the technical side OBL also objected to the idea of taking over aircraft on long distance flights flying into the USA as they would arrive at the target destinations with minimal fuel onboard. So KSM was told to go away and re-think the operation.

1998 - Plan resubmitted now using internal long haul flights taking off from US airports on the eastern seaboard to attack targets in New York and Washington DC. WTC picked on the directions of OBL in revenge for those taken in earlier failed Al-Qaeda attack on the same building complex (1993). The plan is now approved by OBL and handed to Mohammed Atef, Al-Qaeda's Chief of Operations. Atef selects Yemenis for the mission but unfortunately as it was discovered in training, they are not good material as prospective airline pilot candidates and their english is simply just not up to it. The Operation is postponed for a second time.

<1998 - Elsewhere Al-Qaeda has organised and planned two operations from inside Afghanistan that successfully blew up two US Embassies in East Africa. One of the side effects of this is that it becomes more difficult to obtain US entry visa from the middle and near east. Atef is instructed by bin Laden to get recruits for the attack on the US mainland from Europe.

1999- Atef's talent scouts locate and groom Mohammed Atta in Germany. In November of 1999 Atta and four others fly first to Pakistan then cross the border into Afghanistan where they are all interviewed by Osama bin Laden. OBL selects Atta to lead the operation and briefs him on the plan.

2000 - The attack on the USS Cole in Yemen

2001 - 9/11 attack + aftermath. The only thing that OBL and the Taliban have underestimated is the US response under GWB. The only thing they have not taken into account and completely overlooked are the ramifications of attacking the US mainland - Mullah Mohammed Omar will regret that oversight until the day he dies, it cost him a country.

And you say what Jim that Osama bin Laden was the "spiritual" leader?? No hand in operational decisions or direction? Bollocks.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 10:46 AM

"Why do you automatically assume that the 8 women are non-combatants?"
I'm assuming nothing of the sort, they were all described as non-combatant family members by the CIA observers.
The CIA observer making the report took pains to point out that bin Laden was a devoted family man who took an enormous risk in bringing his family to the compound - he headed his statement, "You may not want to know this but....." Given the US record on civilian casualties, BL would have been rather daft to have relied on their humanity towards "hostages" as Keith described them further up the thread.
Your speculation on how many people would be killed by a 2,000 is just that - pure speculation
Maybe they could have use done of those non-chemical weapons you're so fond of!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 12:12 PM

Osama bin Laden was "rather daft"

You should have made it clearer in your post that the assumption that the women were non-combatants had been made by someone else, again only an assumption that I certainly would have given no credence to if I was ordering my men to enter that compound.

As far as "humanity towards hostages" go, there are far and by way far too many amateur videos of people getting their heads clumsily sawn off by purported supporters of this clown for him ever to have expected anything but wall-to-wall-death when they came knocking at his door. He himself was reported to have stated that he would never ever allow himself to be taken alive. How nice of the US Navy SEAL's to give the man his own personally desired way out.

"Your speculation on how many people would be killed by a 2,000 is just that - pure speculation"

No Jim with regard to this specific point with you it is pure speculation, on my part it is "informed" speculation.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 12:55 PM

"towards "hostages" as Keith described them further up the thread."

No Keith did not!
The only hostages I have referred to were those in Iran, in Jimmy Carter's presidency.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 01:16 PM

"The only hostages I have referred to....."
Of for ****'* sake!
You wrote:
"What can you do when fighters surround themselves with civilians including children"
To which I replied:
"You can act on the basis that there are non-combatants in the area - you do not kill hostages"
To which you replied, not disputing my 'hostages' description:
"30 000 Pakistanis killed already by Al Qaeda and Taleban."
Indicating that you accepted the description of killing hostages and excused it on the basis that the Taleban killed people.
"informed" speculation."
Crap - how could you possibly know how accurately an unkown crew could drop a bomb?
Jim Carroll


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