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BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???

GUEST,number 6 01 May 11 - 10:51 PM
GUEST,Number 6 01 May 11 - 10:55 PM
LilyFestre 01 May 11 - 10:57 PM
Genie 01 May 11 - 11:01 PM
Genie 01 May 11 - 11:05 PM
Haruo 01 May 11 - 11:06 PM
SINSULL 01 May 11 - 11:08 PM
EBarnacle 01 May 11 - 11:13 PM
michaelr 01 May 11 - 11:15 PM
Wesley S 01 May 11 - 11:15 PM
J-boy 01 May 11 - 11:18 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 May 11 - 11:27 PM
Amergin 01 May 11 - 11:28 PM
Jeri 01 May 11 - 11:29 PM
Rapparee 01 May 11 - 11:33 PM
Genie 01 May 11 - 11:34 PM
Genie 01 May 11 - 11:36 PM
Rapparee 01 May 11 - 11:46 PM
J-boy 01 May 11 - 11:46 PM
bobad 01 May 11 - 11:47 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 01 May 11 - 11:52 PM
GUEST,Don Meixner 02 May 11 - 12:04 AM
Jack the Sailor 02 May 11 - 12:09 AM
Stilly River Sage 02 May 11 - 12:16 AM
J-boy 02 May 11 - 12:17 AM
J-boy 02 May 11 - 12:33 AM
Little Robyn 02 May 11 - 12:51 AM
robomatic 02 May 11 - 01:08 AM
Ron Davies 02 May 11 - 01:20 AM
J-boy 02 May 11 - 01:22 AM
Backwoodsman 02 May 11 - 02:05 AM
Stilly River Sage 02 May 11 - 02:23 AM
J-boy 02 May 11 - 02:33 AM
Lonesome EJ 02 May 11 - 02:51 AM
skarpi 02 May 11 - 02:53 AM
Backwoodsman 02 May 11 - 02:55 AM
Richard Bridge 02 May 11 - 02:55 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 02 May 11 - 03:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 May 11 - 04:06 AM
C-flat 02 May 11 - 04:12 AM
Roger the Skiffler 02 May 11 - 05:12 AM
Roger the Skiffler 02 May 11 - 05:14 AM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 02 May 11 - 05:44 AM
Backwoodsman 02 May 11 - 05:48 AM
McGrath of Harlow 02 May 11 - 05:54 AM
gnu 02 May 11 - 05:56 AM
Arnie 02 May 11 - 06:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 May 11 - 06:58 AM
GUEST,John MacKenzie 02 May 11 - 07:10 AM
Wesley S 02 May 11 - 07:31 AM
Charley Noble 02 May 11 - 07:31 AM
Backwoodsman 02 May 11 - 07:31 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 02 May 11 - 07:40 AM
Arnie 02 May 11 - 07:44 AM
GUEST,kendall 02 May 11 - 07:50 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 02 May 11 - 08:08 AM
GUEST,John MacKenzie 02 May 11 - 08:25 AM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 02 May 11 - 09:13 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 02 May 11 - 09:15 AM
Wesley S 02 May 11 - 09:17 AM
Greg F. 02 May 11 - 10:09 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 02 May 11 - 10:34 AM
Mrrzy 02 May 11 - 10:34 AM
josepp 02 May 11 - 10:46 AM
kendall 02 May 11 - 10:46 AM
olddude 02 May 11 - 10:51 AM
josepp 02 May 11 - 10:51 AM
jacqui.c 02 May 11 - 10:56 AM
kendall 02 May 11 - 11:01 AM
Wesley S 02 May 11 - 11:06 AM
josepp 02 May 11 - 11:07 AM
Bill D 02 May 11 - 11:19 AM
bobad 02 May 11 - 11:20 AM
pdq 02 May 11 - 11:24 AM
Wolfgang 02 May 11 - 11:27 AM
Taconicus 02 May 11 - 11:28 AM
Lonesome EJ 02 May 11 - 11:32 AM
Amos 02 May 11 - 11:33 AM
katlaughing 02 May 11 - 11:38 AM
Taconicus 02 May 11 - 11:40 AM
Beer 02 May 11 - 11:50 AM
Lonesome EJ 02 May 11 - 11:57 AM
Rapparee 02 May 11 - 12:05 PM
josepp 02 May 11 - 12:10 PM
GUEST,John MacKenzie 02 May 11 - 12:16 PM
Lonesome EJ 02 May 11 - 12:19 PM
michaelr 02 May 11 - 12:27 PM
josepp 02 May 11 - 12:34 PM
josepp 02 May 11 - 12:36 PM
Donuel 02 May 11 - 12:42 PM
olddude 02 May 11 - 12:43 PM
Lonesome EJ 02 May 11 - 12:45 PM
Donuel 02 May 11 - 12:50 PM
Donuel 02 May 11 - 12:53 PM
Lonesome EJ 02 May 11 - 12:55 PM
Donuel 02 May 11 - 12:56 PM
bobad 02 May 11 - 12:57 PM
Donuel 02 May 11 - 01:05 PM
Richard Bridge 02 May 11 - 01:07 PM
Donuel 02 May 11 - 01:19 PM
Lonesome EJ 02 May 11 - 01:26 PM
GUEST,lively 02 May 11 - 01:34 PM
Donuel 02 May 11 - 01:44 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 May 11 - 02:01 PM
saulgoldie 02 May 11 - 02:24 PM
Jack the Sailor 02 May 11 - 02:28 PM
kendall 02 May 11 - 02:30 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 May 11 - 02:31 PM
Lonesome EJ 02 May 11 - 02:37 PM
olddude 02 May 11 - 02:38 PM
Lonesome EJ 02 May 11 - 03:14 PM
frogprince 02 May 11 - 03:17 PM
olddude 02 May 11 - 03:19 PM
Jack the Sailor 02 May 11 - 03:19 PM
Lonesome EJ 02 May 11 - 03:29 PM
Don Firth 02 May 11 - 03:30 PM
gnu 02 May 11 - 03:35 PM
Jack the Sailor 02 May 11 - 03:41 PM
Jack the Sailor 02 May 11 - 03:43 PM
Amos 02 May 11 - 03:48 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 02 May 11 - 03:55 PM
Bill D 02 May 11 - 03:59 PM
Jeri 02 May 11 - 04:10 PM
Richard Bridge 02 May 11 - 04:23 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 May 11 - 04:26 PM
gnu 02 May 11 - 04:56 PM
Taconicus 02 May 11 - 05:01 PM
katlaughing 02 May 11 - 05:10 PM
gnu 02 May 11 - 05:29 PM
Shanghaiceltic 02 May 11 - 06:10 PM
Wesley S 02 May 11 - 06:11 PM
Greg F. 02 May 11 - 06:12 PM
Wesley S 02 May 11 - 06:24 PM
Greg F. 02 May 11 - 06:31 PM
Greg F. 02 May 11 - 06:32 PM
Wesley S 02 May 11 - 06:36 PM
Wesley S 02 May 11 - 06:39 PM
Janie 02 May 11 - 06:41 PM
gnu 02 May 11 - 06:43 PM
GUEST,TIA 02 May 11 - 07:06 PM
Janie 02 May 11 - 07:11 PM
Janie 02 May 11 - 07:23 PM
bobad 02 May 11 - 07:36 PM
Joe_F 02 May 11 - 08:00 PM
Janie 02 May 11 - 08:00 PM
josepp 02 May 11 - 09:03 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 02 May 11 - 09:25 PM
artbrooks 02 May 11 - 09:37 PM
Taconicus 02 May 11 - 09:46 PM
Richard Bridge 02 May 11 - 10:00 PM
Janie 02 May 11 - 10:04 PM
EBarnacle 02 May 11 - 10:20 PM
Bobert 02 May 11 - 10:29 PM
Bill D 02 May 11 - 10:32 PM
Taconicus 02 May 11 - 10:38 PM
kendall 02 May 11 - 10:49 PM
Rapparee 02 May 11 - 10:55 PM
Bobert 02 May 11 - 11:25 PM
J-boy 03 May 11 - 12:00 AM
LadyJean 03 May 11 - 12:22 AM
josepp 03 May 11 - 12:24 AM
josepp 03 May 11 - 12:39 AM
JohnInKansas 03 May 11 - 12:57 AM
artbrooks 03 May 11 - 01:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 May 11 - 02:18 AM
GUEST,lively 03 May 11 - 02:44 AM
Richard Bridge 03 May 11 - 03:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 May 11 - 03:08 AM
GUEST,Patsy 03 May 11 - 03:17 AM
McGrath of Harlow 03 May 11 - 04:25 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 May 11 - 05:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 May 11 - 05:56 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 03 May 11 - 05:58 AM
Wesley S 03 May 11 - 07:12 AM
Charley Noble 03 May 11 - 07:46 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 03 May 11 - 07:58 AM
Mrrzy 03 May 11 - 10:21 AM
Rapparee 03 May 11 - 10:45 AM
josepp 03 May 11 - 10:48 AM
josepp 03 May 11 - 11:06 AM
Donuel 03 May 11 - 11:07 AM
Donuel 03 May 11 - 11:13 AM
artbrooks 03 May 11 - 11:19 AM
wysiwyg 03 May 11 - 11:29 AM
Greg F. 03 May 11 - 12:53 PM
Little Hawk 03 May 11 - 01:23 PM
Jack the Sailor 03 May 11 - 01:27 PM
Charley Noble 03 May 11 - 01:37 PM
gnu 03 May 11 - 01:40 PM
josepp 03 May 11 - 01:53 PM
josepp 03 May 11 - 02:03 PM
Greg F. 03 May 11 - 02:08 PM
josepp 03 May 11 - 02:14 PM
Greg F. 03 May 11 - 02:17 PM
Amos 03 May 11 - 02:40 PM
GUEST,roderick warner 03 May 11 - 02:49 PM
josepp 03 May 11 - 02:55 PM
gnu 03 May 11 - 03:15 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 May 11 - 03:26 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 03 May 11 - 03:27 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 May 11 - 03:30 PM
Charley Noble 03 May 11 - 03:55 PM
Don Firth 03 May 11 - 03:55 PM
Jack the Sailor 03 May 11 - 04:05 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 03 May 11 - 04:07 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 03 May 11 - 04:12 PM
Bobert 03 May 11 - 05:05 PM
Bill D 03 May 11 - 05:11 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 May 11 - 05:11 PM
Don Firth 03 May 11 - 05:13 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 May 11 - 05:27 PM
Richard Bridge 03 May 11 - 05:28 PM
Bobert 03 May 11 - 05:31 PM
Richard Bridge 03 May 11 - 05:36 PM
andrew e 03 May 11 - 05:57 PM
Charley Noble 03 May 11 - 06:35 PM
bobad 03 May 11 - 06:49 PM
Don Firth 03 May 11 - 07:30 PM
Bobert 03 May 11 - 07:50 PM
gnu 03 May 11 - 08:22 PM
Rapparee 03 May 11 - 10:09 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 03 May 11 - 10:27 PM
bobad 03 May 11 - 10:36 PM
Rapparee 03 May 11 - 11:11 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 03 May 11 - 11:43 PM
Ebbie 03 May 11 - 11:57 PM
GUEST,Clint Westwood 04 May 11 - 12:03 AM
josepp 04 May 11 - 12:09 AM
josepp 04 May 11 - 12:11 AM
J-boy 04 May 11 - 12:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 May 11 - 01:09 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 May 11 - 01:13 AM
J-boy 04 May 11 - 01:20 AM
michaelr 04 May 11 - 01:25 AM
artbrooks 04 May 11 - 01:39 AM
Richard Bridge 04 May 11 - 02:16 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 May 11 - 02:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 May 11 - 03:59 AM
GUEST,Patsy 04 May 11 - 04:17 AM
Silas 04 May 11 - 04:40 AM
Lox 04 May 11 - 05:30 AM
Lox 04 May 11 - 05:52 AM
Richard Bridge 04 May 11 - 06:59 AM
bobad 04 May 11 - 07:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 May 11 - 07:46 AM
GUEST,Lighter 04 May 11 - 08:48 AM
Charley Noble 04 May 11 - 09:10 AM
GUEST,Lighter 04 May 11 - 09:18 AM
Taconicus 04 May 11 - 09:55 AM
Jim Carroll 04 May 11 - 09:59 AM
Silas 04 May 11 - 10:04 AM
Silas 04 May 11 - 10:17 AM
Jim Carroll 04 May 11 - 10:27 AM
Donuel 04 May 11 - 10:34 AM
Silas 04 May 11 - 10:37 AM
GUEST,Lighter 04 May 11 - 11:19 AM
Silas 04 May 11 - 11:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 May 11 - 11:33 AM
Donuel 04 May 11 - 11:38 AM
Silas 04 May 11 - 11:43 AM
Greg F. 04 May 11 - 11:59 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 04 May 11 - 12:44 PM
Richard Bridge 04 May 11 - 12:49 PM
Donuel 04 May 11 - 01:53 PM
Jim Carroll 04 May 11 - 03:40 PM
gnu 04 May 11 - 04:21 PM
olddude 04 May 11 - 04:41 PM
andrew e 04 May 11 - 04:43 PM
Bobert 04 May 11 - 04:53 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 May 11 - 05:08 PM
artbrooks 04 May 11 - 05:32 PM
Jim Carroll 04 May 11 - 05:57 PM
bobad 04 May 11 - 06:24 PM
Don Firth 04 May 11 - 06:44 PM
Jim Carroll 04 May 11 - 06:57 PM
Jim Carroll 04 May 11 - 07:06 PM
Don Firth 04 May 11 - 07:09 PM
olddude 04 May 11 - 07:19 PM
Bobert 04 May 11 - 07:29 PM
bobad 04 May 11 - 07:37 PM
Bobert 04 May 11 - 07:58 PM
Donuel 04 May 11 - 08:25 PM
andrew e 04 May 11 - 08:26 PM
GUEST,number 6 04 May 11 - 09:08 PM
Richard Bridge 04 May 11 - 09:19 PM
bobad 04 May 11 - 09:28 PM
GUEST,number 6 04 May 11 - 09:59 PM
GUEST,number 6 04 May 11 - 10:06 PM
gnu 04 May 11 - 10:18 PM
GUEST,number 6 04 May 11 - 10:31 PM
bobad 04 May 11 - 10:32 PM
GUEST,number 6 04 May 11 - 10:40 PM
Ebbie 04 May 11 - 10:52 PM
Janie 04 May 11 - 11:40 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 May 11 - 12:50 AM
J-boy 05 May 11 - 01:40 AM
Don Firth 05 May 11 - 01:45 AM
Jim Carroll 05 May 11 - 01:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 11 - 01:59 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 May 11 - 02:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 11 - 02:16 AM
Taconicus 05 May 11 - 02:29 AM
Ebbie 05 May 11 - 02:39 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 May 11 - 03:20 AM
Jim Carroll 05 May 11 - 03:31 AM
Stu 05 May 11 - 03:49 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 May 11 - 03:50 AM
Jim Carroll 05 May 11 - 03:52 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 May 11 - 03:58 AM
GUEST,lively 05 May 11 - 04:01 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 May 11 - 04:10 AM
GUEST,lively 05 May 11 - 04:15 AM
Richard Bridge 05 May 11 - 04:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 11 - 04:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 11 - 04:49 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 May 11 - 04:55 AM
GUEST,lively 05 May 11 - 05:41 AM
Jim Carroll 05 May 11 - 05:45 AM
GUEST,liely 05 May 11 - 05:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 11 - 05:59 AM
GUEST,lively 05 May 11 - 06:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 11 - 07:31 AM
Brian May 05 May 11 - 07:46 AM
Silas 05 May 11 - 07:51 AM
Richard Bridge 05 May 11 - 07:55 AM
Charley Noble 05 May 11 - 07:59 AM
Donuel 05 May 11 - 08:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 11 - 08:02 AM
Silas 05 May 11 - 08:05 AM
Jim Carroll 05 May 11 - 08:13 AM
GUEST,lively 05 May 11 - 08:29 AM
Donuel 05 May 11 - 08:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 11 - 08:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 11 - 09:58 AM
Silas 05 May 11 - 10:01 AM
Jim Carroll 05 May 11 - 10:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 11 - 10:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 11 - 10:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 11 - 10:18 AM
Silas 05 May 11 - 10:19 AM
Donuel 05 May 11 - 10:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 11 - 11:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 11 - 11:11 AM
Silas 05 May 11 - 11:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 11 - 11:37 AM
Jim Carroll 05 May 11 - 11:40 AM
Silas 05 May 11 - 11:43 AM
Jim Carroll 05 May 11 - 11:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 11 - 12:13 PM
Silas 05 May 11 - 12:15 PM
Donuel 05 May 11 - 12:24 PM
Silas 05 May 11 - 12:28 PM
Donuel 05 May 11 - 12:30 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 05 May 11 - 12:31 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 11 - 12:33 PM
Richard Bridge 05 May 11 - 12:38 PM
Greg F. 05 May 11 - 12:44 PM
Donuel 05 May 11 - 12:56 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 May 11 - 01:01 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 May 11 - 01:03 PM
Jim Carroll 05 May 11 - 01:04 PM
The Sandman 05 May 11 - 01:05 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 May 11 - 01:29 PM
Donuel 05 May 11 - 01:43 PM
Donuel 05 May 11 - 01:49 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 11 - 02:16 PM
gnu 05 May 11 - 02:46 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 11 - 03:09 PM
gnu 05 May 11 - 03:24 PM
Jim Carroll 05 May 11 - 03:44 PM
Don Firth 05 May 11 - 03:54 PM
Justa Picker 05 May 11 - 04:05 PM
Jim Carroll 05 May 11 - 04:05 PM
Richard Bridge 05 May 11 - 04:10 PM
Wesley S 05 May 11 - 04:20 PM
Justa Picker 05 May 11 - 04:27 PM
GUEST,lively 05 May 11 - 04:40 PM
Don Firth 05 May 11 - 04:42 PM
Jim Carroll 05 May 11 - 04:47 PM
bobad 05 May 11 - 04:58 PM
Don Firth 05 May 11 - 06:07 PM
Jim Carroll 05 May 11 - 06:25 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 May 11 - 06:27 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 05 May 11 - 06:33 PM
artbrooks 05 May 11 - 06:44 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 May 11 - 06:45 PM
Don Firth 05 May 11 - 06:52 PM
Jim Carroll 05 May 11 - 07:48 PM
Charley Noble 05 May 11 - 08:19 PM
artbrooks 05 May 11 - 09:14 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 May 11 - 10:57 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 May 11 - 02:03 AM
Jim Carroll 06 May 11 - 02:34 AM
Richard Bridge 06 May 11 - 02:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 May 11 - 02:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 May 11 - 03:15 AM
Jim Carroll 06 May 11 - 03:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 May 11 - 04:07 AM
GUEST,lively 06 May 11 - 04:07 AM
Richard Bridge 06 May 11 - 05:19 AM
GUEST,lively 06 May 11 - 05:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 May 11 - 06:31 AM
GUEST,Lighter 06 May 11 - 07:52 AM
bobad 06 May 11 - 07:55 AM
Jim Carroll 06 May 11 - 08:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 May 11 - 08:21 AM
GUEST,lively 06 May 11 - 08:29 AM
GUEST,Lighter 06 May 11 - 08:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 May 11 - 08:49 AM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 06 May 11 - 09:10 AM
Jim Carroll 06 May 11 - 10:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 May 11 - 10:20 AM
GUEST,Lighter 06 May 11 - 10:26 AM
Jim Carroll 06 May 11 - 10:27 AM
GUEST,lively 06 May 11 - 10:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 May 11 - 11:11 AM
Arthur_itus 06 May 11 - 11:21 AM
Richard Bridge 06 May 11 - 11:35 AM
artbrooks 06 May 11 - 12:42 PM
GUEST,lively 06 May 11 - 01:01 PM
BanjoRay 06 May 11 - 01:13 PM
artbrooks 06 May 11 - 01:21 PM
GUEST,lively 06 May 11 - 01:32 PM
GUEST,lively 06 May 11 - 01:36 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 May 11 - 02:03 PM
artbrooks 06 May 11 - 02:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 May 11 - 02:22 PM
Richard Bridge 06 May 11 - 02:23 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 May 11 - 02:26 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 May 11 - 02:28 PM
GUEST,lively 06 May 11 - 02:40 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 May 11 - 02:43 PM
GUEST,lively 06 May 11 - 02:43 PM
Don Firth 06 May 11 - 02:51 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 May 11 - 02:56 PM
GUEST,lively 06 May 11 - 03:22 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 May 11 - 03:27 PM
GUEST,lively 06 May 11 - 03:45 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 May 11 - 04:23 PM
Taconicus 06 May 11 - 04:26 PM
Jim Carroll 06 May 11 - 04:27 PM
Taconicus 06 May 11 - 04:36 PM
Don Firth 06 May 11 - 04:37 PM
Taconicus 06 May 11 - 04:39 PM
GUEST,lively 06 May 11 - 04:42 PM
bobad 06 May 11 - 04:46 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 May 11 - 04:51 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 May 11 - 05:04 PM
GUEST,lively 06 May 11 - 05:06 PM
Taconicus 06 May 11 - 05:26 PM
artbrooks 06 May 11 - 07:53 PM
Wesley S 06 May 11 - 10:42 PM
andrew e 06 May 11 - 11:12 PM
Donuel 07 May 11 - 12:42 AM
Donuel 07 May 11 - 12:58 AM
Jim Carroll 07 May 11 - 02:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 May 11 - 03:09 AM
Jim Carroll 07 May 11 - 04:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 May 11 - 04:54 AM
GUEST,lively 07 May 11 - 04:57 AM
Richard Bridge 07 May 11 - 05:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 May 11 - 06:12 AM
GUEST,lively 07 May 11 - 06:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 May 11 - 07:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 May 11 - 07:12 AM
GUEST,lively 07 May 11 - 07:34 AM
GUEST,lively 07 May 11 - 07:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 May 11 - 07:41 AM
artbrooks 07 May 11 - 08:02 AM
GUEST,Lighter 07 May 11 - 09:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 May 11 - 09:14 AM
bobad 07 May 11 - 09:35 AM
GUEST,lively 07 May 11 - 09:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 May 11 - 09:59 AM
GUEST,lively 07 May 11 - 10:13 AM
bobad 07 May 11 - 10:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 May 11 - 10:29 AM
GUEST,Lighter 07 May 11 - 10:42 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 07 May 11 - 11:55 AM
Donuel 07 May 11 - 11:57 AM
gnu 07 May 11 - 01:08 PM
Jim Carroll 07 May 11 - 01:15 PM
GUEST,lively 07 May 11 - 01:28 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 May 11 - 01:35 PM
Don Firth 07 May 11 - 02:25 PM
Don Firth 07 May 11 - 04:30 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 07 May 11 - 04:44 PM
GUEST,lively 07 May 11 - 04:52 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 07 May 11 - 05:33 PM
Wesley S 07 May 11 - 05:35 PM
bobad 07 May 11 - 05:55 PM
GUEST,number 6 07 May 11 - 06:21 PM
GUEST,lively 07 May 11 - 06:25 PM
Charley Noble 07 May 11 - 09:15 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 May 11 - 02:16 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 May 11 - 03:13 AM
Richard Bridge 08 May 11 - 03:38 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 May 11 - 03:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 May 11 - 04:20 AM
Jim Carroll 08 May 11 - 04:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 May 11 - 05:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 May 11 - 07:03 AM
Charley Noble 08 May 11 - 12:07 PM
Stringsinger 08 May 11 - 12:41 PM
GUEST,lively 08 May 11 - 12:53 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 08 May 11 - 12:57 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 May 11 - 01:11 PM
Stringsinger 08 May 11 - 02:07 PM
Richard Bridge 08 May 11 - 02:54 PM
GUEST,lively 08 May 11 - 03:04 PM
artbrooks 08 May 11 - 03:23 PM
GUEST,Lighter 08 May 11 - 03:39 PM
GUEST,lively 08 May 11 - 04:01 PM
GUEST,Lighter 08 May 11 - 04:17 PM
GUEST,lively 08 May 11 - 04:27 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 May 11 - 04:48 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 May 11 - 04:53 PM
Richard Bridge 08 May 11 - 05:23 PM
Don Firth 08 May 11 - 05:42 PM
GUEST,Lighter 08 May 11 - 06:40 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 May 11 - 07:29 PM
Don Firth 08 May 11 - 07:58 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 May 11 - 08:09 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 May 11 - 08:18 PM
bobad 08 May 11 - 08:18 PM
bobad 08 May 11 - 08:55 PM
Richard Bridge 08 May 11 - 09:32 PM
Richard Bridge 08 May 11 - 09:44 PM
artbrooks 08 May 11 - 09:45 PM
bobad 08 May 11 - 09:49 PM
GUEST,Lighter 08 May 11 - 09:53 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 May 11 - 01:18 AM
Wotcha 09 May 11 - 02:08 AM
GUEST,lively 09 May 11 - 02:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 May 11 - 02:50 AM
Jim Carroll 09 May 11 - 03:22 AM
Richard Bridge 09 May 11 - 03:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 May 11 - 04:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 May 11 - 04:02 AM
GUEST,lively 09 May 11 - 04:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 May 11 - 04:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 May 11 - 05:24 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 09 May 11 - 05:42 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 09 May 11 - 05:51 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 09 May 11 - 06:16 AM
Jim Carroll 09 May 11 - 06:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 May 11 - 06:39 AM
Jim Carroll 09 May 11 - 06:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 May 11 - 07:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 May 11 - 07:29 AM
Jim Carroll 09 May 11 - 07:34 AM
Jim Carroll 09 May 11 - 07:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 May 11 - 07:54 AM
Ron Davies 09 May 11 - 07:58 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 09 May 11 - 08:12 AM
Richard Bridge 09 May 11 - 08:13 AM
Ron Davies 09 May 11 - 08:24 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 09 May 11 - 08:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 May 11 - 08:36 AM
Jim Carroll 09 May 11 - 09:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 May 11 - 09:18 AM
Charley Noble 09 May 11 - 09:23 AM
GUEST,Lighter 09 May 11 - 09:27 AM
Ron Davies 09 May 11 - 09:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 May 11 - 10:11 AM
Wesley S 09 May 11 - 10:19 AM
bobad 09 May 11 - 10:41 AM
Jim Carroll 09 May 11 - 11:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 May 11 - 11:38 AM
Jim Carroll 09 May 11 - 12:08 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 May 11 - 12:46 PM
Jim Carroll 09 May 11 - 01:47 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 09 May 11 - 02:06 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 09 May 11 - 02:17 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 May 11 - 02:49 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 09 May 11 - 03:11 PM
Don Firth 09 May 11 - 03:16 PM
Jim Carroll 09 May 11 - 04:00 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 May 11 - 04:28 PM
Jim Carroll 09 May 11 - 04:32 PM
Greg F. 09 May 11 - 04:53 PM
Don Firth 09 May 11 - 04:58 PM
Greg F. 09 May 11 - 05:10 PM
Don Firth 09 May 11 - 05:29 PM
andrew e 09 May 11 - 06:29 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 May 11 - 07:53 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 May 11 - 08:05 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 May 11 - 08:10 PM
michaelr 09 May 11 - 08:11 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 May 11 - 08:21 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 May 11 - 08:33 PM
Greg F. 09 May 11 - 09:17 PM
artbrooks 09 May 11 - 09:19 PM
michaelr 09 May 11 - 09:40 PM
artbrooks 09 May 11 - 10:58 PM
michaelr 09 May 11 - 11:19 PM
artbrooks 10 May 11 - 12:01 AM
number 6 10 May 11 - 12:04 AM
Ron Davies 10 May 11 - 12:04 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 May 11 - 12:18 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 May 11 - 12:31 AM
Jim Carroll 10 May 11 - 02:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 11 - 03:01 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 May 11 - 03:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 11 - 03:12 AM
Richard Bridge 10 May 11 - 03:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 11 - 04:01 AM
Jim Carroll 10 May 11 - 04:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 11 - 04:18 AM
Richard Bridge 10 May 11 - 04:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 11 - 05:14 AM
Jim Carroll 10 May 11 - 05:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 11 - 05:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 11 - 05:42 AM
Richard Bridge 10 May 11 - 06:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 11 - 07:36 AM
bobad 10 May 11 - 07:43 AM
bobad 10 May 11 - 07:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 11 - 07:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 11 - 08:11 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 May 11 - 10:27 AM
Backwoodsman 10 May 11 - 10:34 AM
GUEST,Lighter 10 May 11 - 11:39 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 May 11 - 12:04 PM
Greg F. 10 May 11 - 12:31 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 10 May 11 - 12:54 PM
bobad 10 May 11 - 12:55 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 May 11 - 12:59 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 May 11 - 01:39 PM
Greg F. 10 May 11 - 03:02 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 May 11 - 03:26 PM
GUEST,lively 10 May 11 - 03:40 PM
bobad 10 May 11 - 04:06 PM
artbrooks 10 May 11 - 04:39 PM
Richard Bridge 10 May 11 - 05:48 PM
GUEST,lively 10 May 11 - 06:15 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 May 11 - 07:20 PM
artbrooks 10 May 11 - 07:42 PM
Don Firth 10 May 11 - 07:58 PM
GUEST,Lighter 10 May 11 - 08:08 PM
Charley Noble 10 May 11 - 08:57 PM
Wesley S 10 May 11 - 09:44 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 May 11 - 10:00 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 May 11 - 11:50 PM
Richard Bridge 10 May 11 - 11:53 PM
Ron Davies 11 May 11 - 12:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 May 11 - 01:39 AM
GUEST,lively 11 May 11 - 03:01 AM
bobad 11 May 11 - 07:02 AM
Richard Bridge 11 May 11 - 07:28 AM
Jim Carroll 11 May 11 - 07:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 May 11 - 07:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 May 11 - 07:55 AM
Ron Davies 11 May 11 - 08:36 AM
Jim Carroll 11 May 11 - 08:56 AM
Ron Davies 11 May 11 - 09:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 May 11 - 09:08 AM
GUEST,lively 11 May 11 - 09:12 AM
GUEST,Lighter 11 May 11 - 09:16 AM
GUEST,lively 11 May 11 - 09:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 May 11 - 09:23 AM
GUEST,999 11 May 11 - 09:32 AM
Greg F. 11 May 11 - 09:36 AM
GUEST,lively 11 May 11 - 09:38 AM
Richard Bridge 11 May 11 - 09:59 AM
GUEST,999 11 May 11 - 10:09 AM
GUEST,lively 11 May 11 - 10:11 AM
Jim Carroll 11 May 11 - 11:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 May 11 - 11:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 May 11 - 11:52 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 May 11 - 12:27 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 May 11 - 12:35 PM
GUEST,Lighter 11 May 11 - 12:50 PM
Richard Bridge 11 May 11 - 01:07 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 May 11 - 01:13 PM
Teribus 11 May 11 - 01:24 PM
GUEST,number 6 11 May 11 - 01:24 PM
Richard Bridge 11 May 11 - 01:29 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 May 11 - 01:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 May 11 - 01:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 May 11 - 01:57 PM
GUEST,Lighter 11 May 11 - 02:34 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 May 11 - 02:45 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 May 11 - 02:49 PM
GUEST,Lighter 11 May 11 - 03:02 PM
Richard Bridge 11 May 11 - 03:06 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 May 11 - 03:21 PM
Don Firth 11 May 11 - 03:47 PM
Jim Carroll 11 May 11 - 03:51 PM
gnu 11 May 11 - 03:59 PM
Jim Carroll 11 May 11 - 04:24 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 May 11 - 05:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 May 11 - 05:13 PM
Don Firth 11 May 11 - 05:32 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 May 11 - 05:32 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 May 11 - 05:42 PM
Teribus 11 May 11 - 05:50 PM
Richard Bridge 11 May 11 - 05:51 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 May 11 - 06:38 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 May 11 - 06:39 PM
Don Firth 11 May 11 - 07:02 PM
Teribus 12 May 11 - 12:48 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 12 May 11 - 01:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 May 11 - 01:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 May 11 - 01:21 AM
Jim Carroll 12 May 11 - 02:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 May 11 - 02:59 AM
Jim Carroll 12 May 11 - 12:23 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 12 May 11 - 12:39 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 May 11 - 01:19 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 May 11 - 02:03 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 May 11 - 02:34 PM
Jim Carroll 12 May 11 - 03:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 May 11 - 04:12 PM
Donuel 12 May 11 - 04:30 PM
Don Firth 12 May 11 - 04:31 PM
Richard Bridge 12 May 11 - 05:14 PM
Don Firth 12 May 11 - 08:36 PM
GUEST,number 6 12 May 11 - 10:08 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 11 - 12:20 AM
Teribus 13 May 11 - 12:26 AM
Jim Carroll 13 May 11 - 03:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 11 - 03:59 AM
Jim Carroll 13 May 11 - 05:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 11 - 05:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 11 - 05:40 AM
Jim Carroll 13 May 11 - 06:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 11 - 06:58 AM
GUEST,number 6 13 May 11 - 07:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 11 - 07:43 AM
Jim Carroll 13 May 11 - 09:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 11 - 10:31 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 May 11 - 10:49 AM
Richard Bridge 13 May 11 - 10:59 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 May 11 - 11:15 AM
Jim Carroll 13 May 11 - 11:42 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 May 11 - 11:46 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 May 11 - 12:03 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 May 11 - 12:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 11 - 12:15 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 May 11 - 12:41 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 May 11 - 01:01 PM
Teribus 13 May 11 - 01:21 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 11 - 02:00 PM
Don Firth 13 May 11 - 02:31 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 May 11 - 02:37 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 May 11 - 02:38 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 May 11 - 02:40 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 May 11 - 02:41 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 11 - 02:41 PM
GUEST 13 May 11 - 02:42 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 May 11 - 02:45 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 May 11 - 02:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 11 - 03:15 PM
Jim Carroll 13 May 11 - 03:24 PM
Richard Bridge 13 May 11 - 03:32 PM
bobad 13 May 11 - 03:42 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 May 11 - 05:00 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 11 - 05:12 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 May 11 - 06:05 PM
Jack Campin 13 May 11 - 06:11 PM
bobad 13 May 11 - 06:30 PM
bobad 13 May 11 - 06:44 PM
Donuel 13 May 11 - 10:16 PM
Don Firth 13 May 11 - 11:14 PM
Donuel 13 May 11 - 11:32 PM
Donuel 13 May 11 - 11:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 May 11 - 01:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 May 11 - 01:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 May 11 - 01:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 May 11 - 02:03 AM
Jim Carroll 14 May 11 - 03:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 May 11 - 03:41 AM
Jim Carroll 14 May 11 - 04:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 May 11 - 04:10 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 May 11 - 07:16 AM
Richard Bridge 14 May 11 - 07:20 AM
bobad 14 May 11 - 07:28 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 May 11 - 07:34 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 May 11 - 07:55 AM
bobad 14 May 11 - 08:06 AM
bobad 14 May 11 - 08:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 May 11 - 08:55 AM
GUEST,999 14 May 11 - 09:45 AM
GUEST,Jim Knowledge 14 May 11 - 09:57 AM
Richard Bridge 14 May 11 - 10:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 May 11 - 10:42 AM
Jeri 14 May 11 - 11:06 AM
Charley Noble 14 May 11 - 11:28 AM
Teribus 14 May 11 - 12:07 PM
Jeri 14 May 11 - 12:15 PM
GUEST,Lighter 14 May 11 - 12:28 PM
Jeri 14 May 11 - 01:31 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 14 May 11 - 02:34 PM
Teribus 14 May 11 - 05:22 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 May 11 - 05:34 PM
gnu 14 May 11 - 05:43 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 May 11 - 05:55 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 May 11 - 06:05 PM
Jeri 14 May 11 - 06:31 PM
bobad 14 May 11 - 06:41 PM
andrew e 14 May 11 - 07:11 PM
Don Firth 14 May 11 - 07:42 PM
Richard Bridge 14 May 11 - 07:50 PM
Don Firth 14 May 11 - 08:00 PM
GUEST,number 6 14 May 11 - 08:44 PM
GUEST,Lighter 14 May 11 - 09:02 PM
gnu 14 May 11 - 09:48 PM
GUEST,number 6 14 May 11 - 11:11 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 May 11 - 03:24 AM
Teribus 15 May 11 - 03:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 May 11 - 04:28 AM
GUEST,lively 15 May 11 - 05:04 AM
Teribus 15 May 11 - 05:33 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 May 11 - 06:20 AM
bobad 15 May 11 - 06:28 AM
bobad 15 May 11 - 08:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 May 11 - 09:07 AM
GUEST,number 6 15 May 11 - 09:41 AM
GUEST,number 6 15 May 11 - 10:07 AM
Richard Bridge 15 May 11 - 12:21 PM
bobad 15 May 11 - 12:25 PM
Don Firth 15 May 11 - 02:48 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 May 11 - 04:03 PM
Don Firth 16 May 11 - 01:57 AM
Richard Bridge 16 May 11 - 02:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 11 - 02:53 AM
Teribus 16 May 11 - 04:45 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 May 11 - 06:42 AM
Richard Bridge 16 May 11 - 06:53 AM
Bill D 16 May 11 - 10:30 AM
Backwoodsman 16 May 11 - 12:02 PM
Donuel 16 May 11 - 12:14 PM
Bill D 16 May 11 - 12:19 PM
Donuel 16 May 11 - 12:43 PM
GUEST,lively 16 May 11 - 12:52 PM
Backwoodsman 16 May 11 - 01:21 PM
Richard Bridge 16 May 11 - 01:22 PM
GUEST,lively 16 May 11 - 01:34 PM
Don Firth 16 May 11 - 02:55 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 11 - 03:16 PM
GUEST,lively 16 May 11 - 03:16 PM
GUEST,lively 16 May 11 - 03:24 PM
GUEST,Lighter 16 May 11 - 04:13 PM
GUEST,lively 16 May 11 - 04:29 PM
bobad 16 May 11 - 04:32 PM
GUEST,lively 16 May 11 - 04:33 PM
Don Firth 16 May 11 - 05:28 PM
GUEST,lively 16 May 11 - 05:47 PM
andrew e 16 May 11 - 06:09 PM
Don Firth 16 May 11 - 06:10 PM
GUEST,lively 16 May 11 - 06:44 PM
Don Firth 16 May 11 - 07:00 PM
Stringsinger 16 May 11 - 07:11 PM
Don Firth 16 May 11 - 07:58 PM
bobad 16 May 11 - 10:42 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 May 11 - 06:08 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 17 May 11 - 06:38 AM
bobad 17 May 11 - 07:23 AM
Greg F. 17 May 11 - 09:53 AM
GUEST,number 6 17 May 11 - 01:17 PM
gnu 17 May 11 - 02:34 PM
Don Firth 17 May 11 - 02:48 PM
GUEST,number 6 17 May 11 - 03:08 PM
bobad 17 May 11 - 03:18 PM
GUEST,number 6 17 May 11 - 04:04 PM
Don Firth 17 May 11 - 04:10 PM
GUEST,lively 17 May 11 - 07:13 PM
Teribus 17 May 11 - 07:34 PM
Teribus 17 May 11 - 07:37 PM
GUEST,Guest (Tommy) 17 May 11 - 07:41 PM
GUEST,Lighter 17 May 11 - 07:54 PM
GUEST,lively 17 May 11 - 08:27 PM
Don Firth 17 May 11 - 11:32 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 May 11 - 02:44 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 18 May 11 - 05:39 AM
GUEST,number 6 18 May 11 - 09:58 AM
gnu 18 May 11 - 02:40 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 18 May 11 - 05:27 PM
GUEST,Lighter 18 May 11 - 08:45 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 18 May 11 - 09:30 PM
Charley Noble 19 May 11 - 07:56 AM
GUEST,number 6 19 May 11 - 08:18 AM
Greg F. 19 May 11 - 08:55 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 19 May 11 - 08:54 PM
Charley Noble 19 May 11 - 09:01 PM
GUEST,Guest (Tommy) 20 May 11 - 06:16 AM
GUEST,lively 20 May 11 - 06:54 AM
GUEST,Lighter 20 May 11 - 09:02 AM
Silas 20 May 11 - 09:36 AM
GUEST,number 6 20 May 11 - 09:51 AM
Don Firth 20 May 11 - 02:33 PM
gnu 29 May 11 - 04:47 PM
Stringsinger 29 May 11 - 07:12 PM
Lighter 29 May 11 - 08:22 PM
Bill D 29 May 11 - 08:59 PM
andrew e 30 May 11 - 05:48 PM
gnu 30 May 11 - 07:34 PM
Lighter 31 May 11 - 07:39 AM
Teribus 31 May 11 - 11:36 AM
Jim Carroll 31 May 11 - 02:58 PM
Greg F. 31 May 11 - 03:19 PM
andrew e 31 May 11 - 05:42 PM
bobad 31 May 11 - 06:35 PM
Lighter 31 May 11 - 07:49 PM
number 6 31 May 11 - 11:27 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 31 May 11 - 11:31 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jun 11 - 06:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jun 11 - 06:01 AM
number 6 01 Jun 11 - 08:04 AM
GUEST,number 6 01 Jun 11 - 10:05 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 11 - 12:26 PM
Teribus 02 Jun 11 - 03:23 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jun 11 - 03:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jun 11 - 04:24 AM
Teribus 02 Jun 11 - 05:28 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jun 11 - 06:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jun 11 - 07:52 AM
Silas 02 Jun 11 - 08:08 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jun 11 - 08:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jun 11 - 08:50 AM
Silas 02 Jun 11 - 08:54 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Jun 11 - 09:15 AM
Silas 02 Jun 11 - 09:19 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Jun 11 - 09:21 AM
Lighter 02 Jun 11 - 09:46 AM
GUEST,number 6 02 Jun 11 - 09:59 AM
Teribus 02 Jun 11 - 12:38 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Jun 11 - 01:11 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Jun 11 - 01:32 PM
MGM·Lion 02 Jun 11 - 01:52 PM
olddude 02 Jun 11 - 02:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jun 11 - 02:53 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Jun 11 - 03:52 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jun 11 - 04:01 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Jun 11 - 02:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jun 11 - 04:18 AM
Silas 03 Jun 11 - 04:46 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Jun 11 - 04:48 AM
GUEST,Jon 03 Jun 11 - 04:56 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jun 11 - 05:21 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jun 11 - 05:26 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Jun 11 - 05:47 AM
GUEST,Jon 03 Jun 11 - 06:46 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jun 11 - 07:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jun 11 - 07:41 AM
GUEST,Jon 03 Jun 11 - 07:55 AM
Lighter 03 Jun 11 - 10:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jun 11 - 11:03 AM
Silas 03 Jun 11 - 11:11 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jun 11 - 03:33 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jun 11 - 03:57 PM
MGM·Lion 03 Jun 11 - 04:24 PM
Lighter 03 Jun 11 - 04:35 PM
andrew e 03 Jun 11 - 06:15 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Jun 11 - 02:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jun 11 - 04:19 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Jun 11 - 05:30 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Jun 11 - 05:32 AM
Teribus 04 Jun 11 - 06:49 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Jun 11 - 07:09 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jun 11 - 07:18 AM
bobad 04 Jun 11 - 07:19 AM
Lighter 04 Jun 11 - 08:10 AM
bobad 04 Jun 11 - 08:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jun 11 - 09:01 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jun 11 - 11:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Jun 11 - 02:02 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Jun 11 - 04:37 AM
Teribus 05 Jun 11 - 05:42 AM
Teribus 05 Jun 11 - 05:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Jun 11 - 05:45 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Jun 11 - 07:39 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Jun 11 - 07:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Jun 11 - 08:04 AM
Teribus 05 Jun 11 - 08:21 AM
GUEST,Jon 05 Jun 11 - 08:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Jun 11 - 08:31 AM
Teribus 05 Jun 11 - 08:34 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 05 Jun 11 - 11:58 AM
Teribus 05 Jun 11 - 12:41 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Jun 11 - 04:07 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Jun 11 - 04:25 PM
Teribus 05 Jun 11 - 05:08 PM
andrew e 05 Jun 11 - 06:07 PM
Don Firth 05 Jun 11 - 06:35 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Jun 11 - 04:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jun 11 - 04:43 AM
GUEST,Jon 06 Jun 11 - 04:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jun 11 - 05:05 AM
GUEST,Jon 06 Jun 11 - 05:27 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jun 11 - 06:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jun 11 - 06:44 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jun 11 - 10:50 AM
Lighter 06 Jun 11 - 11:24 AM
GUEST,Jon 06 Jun 11 - 11:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jun 11 - 12:07 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jun 11 - 12:11 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Jun 11 - 12:11 PM
Teribus 06 Jun 11 - 12:18 PM
Teribus 06 Jun 11 - 12:18 PM
Teribus 06 Jun 11 - 12:36 PM
Silas 06 Jun 11 - 01:23 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Jun 11 - 01:52 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jun 11 - 02:40 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Jun 11 - 03:03 PM
Don Firth 06 Jun 11 - 03:20 PM
Silas 06 Jun 11 - 03:27 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Jun 11 - 03:53 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jun 11 - 04:21 PM
Teribus 06 Jun 11 - 04:27 PM
GUEST,999 06 Jun 11 - 05:00 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Jun 11 - 05:26 PM
Teribus 06 Jun 11 - 06:47 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Jun 11 - 06:59 PM
Don Firth 06 Jun 11 - 07:50 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jun 11 - 10:58 PM
Teribus 07 Jun 11 - 01:19 AM
Silas 07 Jun 11 - 02:27 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Jun 11 - 03:07 AM
Silas 07 Jun 11 - 03:40 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Jun 11 - 03:45 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jun 11 - 03:56 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Jun 11 - 04:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jun 11 - 04:14 AM
Silas 07 Jun 11 - 04:18 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Jun 11 - 04:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jun 11 - 04:26 AM
Silas 07 Jun 11 - 04:28 AM
Silas 07 Jun 11 - 04:43 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jun 11 - 05:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jun 11 - 05:21 AM
Silas 07 Jun 11 - 05:23 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Jun 11 - 05:27 AM
GUEST,Jon 07 Jun 11 - 05:28 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jun 11 - 06:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jun 11 - 06:23 AM
Silas 07 Jun 11 - 06:24 AM
GUEST,Jon 07 Jun 11 - 06:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jun 11 - 06:42 AM
Teribus 07 Jun 11 - 12:16 PM
Silas 07 Jun 11 - 12:34 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Jun 11 - 01:30 PM
Don Firth 07 Jun 11 - 02:01 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Jun 11 - 02:31 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Jun 11 - 03:35 PM
Don Firth 07 Jun 11 - 04:04 PM
Teribus 07 Jun 11 - 05:00 PM
andrew e 07 Jun 11 - 05:01 PM
Teribus 07 Jun 11 - 05:06 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Jun 11 - 05:16 PM
Don Firth 07 Jun 11 - 10:31 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 11 - 01:15 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jun 11 - 04:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 11 - 04:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 11 - 04:31 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Jun 11 - 04:58 AM
GUEST,Jon 08 Jun 11 - 05:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 11 - 05:55 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jun 11 - 06:46 AM
Silas 08 Jun 11 - 06:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 11 - 06:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 11 - 06:55 AM
Silas 08 Jun 11 - 07:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 11 - 07:13 AM
Silas 08 Jun 11 - 07:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 11 - 07:48 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jun 11 - 08:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 11 - 08:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 11 - 08:54 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jun 11 - 09:39 AM
MGM·Lion 08 Jun 11 - 11:40 AM
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Silas 08 Jun 11 - 12:01 PM
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Don Firth 08 Jun 11 - 05:30 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Jun 11 - 08:38 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Jun 11 - 08:45 PM
Don Firth 08 Jun 11 - 09:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 11 - 01:15 AM
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Silas 09 Jun 11 - 01:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 11 - 02:01 AM
GUEST,Jon 09 Jun 11 - 02:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 11 - 02:41 AM
Silas 09 Jun 11 - 02:56 AM
Silas 09 Jun 11 - 03:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 11 - 03:05 AM
Silas 09 Jun 11 - 03:15 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 11 - 03:52 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 11 - 03:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 11 - 03:55 AM
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Teribus 09 Jun 11 - 10:31 AM
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Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 11 - 12:55 PM
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Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 11 - 04:32 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 11 - 05:06 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 11 - 05:15 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 Jun 11 - 06:36 PM
Teribus 09 Jun 11 - 07:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 11 - 01:12 AM
andrew e 10 Jun 11 - 02:48 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jun 11 - 03:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 11 - 03:13 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Jun 11 - 11:32 AM
Teribus 10 Jun 11 - 02:57 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Jun 11 - 06:24 PM
Teribus 11 Jun 11 - 02:27 AM
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bobad 11 Jun 11 - 10:10 AM
Don Firth 11 Jun 11 - 02:36 PM
MGM·Lion 11 Jun 11 - 03:36 PM
GUEST,dan bromberg 11 Jun 11 - 05:00 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 11 Jun 11 - 06:45 PM
Silas 12 Jun 11 - 05:23 AM
Teribus 12 Jun 11 - 06:21 AM
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GUEST,lively 13 Jun 11 - 06:30 AM
Teribus 13 Jun 11 - 07:22 AM
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GUEST,lively 13 Jun 11 - 08:53 AM
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Silas 13 Jun 11 - 10:30 AM
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Silas 14 Jun 11 - 02:06 AM
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Silas 14 Jun 11 - 09:09 AM
GUEST,Jon 14 Jun 11 - 09:14 AM
Teribus 14 Jun 11 - 10:54 AM
Silas 14 Jun 11 - 10:59 AM
Teribus 14 Jun 11 - 03:31 PM
Silas 14 Jun 11 - 05:35 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Jun 11 - 07:44 PM
Teribus 15 Jun 11 - 12:44 AM
Teribus 15 Jun 11 - 12:48 AM
Silas 15 Jun 11 - 05:05 AM
Teribus 15 Jun 11 - 08:19 AM
Silas 15 Jun 11 - 08:27 AM
Teribus 15 Jun 11 - 09:46 AM
Silas 15 Jun 11 - 10:07 AM
Teribus 15 Jun 11 - 11:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jun 11 - 11:47 AM
Silas 15 Jun 11 - 12:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jun 11 - 12:57 PM
Silas 15 Jun 11 - 01:03 PM
Don Firth 15 Jun 11 - 02:15 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jun 11 - 03:31 PM
Teribus 15 Jun 11 - 05:26 PM
Silas 16 Jun 11 - 04:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jun 11 - 05:26 AM
Silas 16 Jun 11 - 07:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jun 11 - 07:23 AM
Silas 16 Jun 11 - 07:36 AM
bobad 16 Jun 11 - 07:44 AM
Silas 16 Jun 11 - 09:18 AM
Teribus 16 Jun 11 - 10:29 AM
GUEST,Lighter 16 Jun 11 - 10:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jun 11 - 03:12 PM
GUEST,number 6 16 Jun 11 - 04:28 PM
Teribus 16 Jun 11 - 05:34 PM
GUEST,number 6 16 Jun 11 - 07:09 PM
Teribus 17 Jun 11 - 01:41 AM
Silas 17 Jun 11 - 09:10 AM
GUEST,number 6 17 Jun 11 - 07:01 PM
bobad 17 Jun 11 - 07:39 PM
GUEST,number 6 17 Jun 11 - 09:47 PM
Bobert 17 Jun 11 - 10:22 PM
bobad 17 Jun 11 - 10:31 PM
GUEST,number 6 17 Jun 11 - 10:57 PM
Don Firth 18 Jun 11 - 01:59 AM
Silas 18 Jun 11 - 04:47 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Jun 11 - 10:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jun 11 - 01:31 PM
Greg F. 20 Jun 11 - 11:11 AM
Silas 20 Jun 11 - 11:24 AM
GUEST,number 6 20 Jun 11 - 12:01 PM
Greg F. 20 Jun 11 - 12:23 PM
Richard Bridge 10 Jul 11 - 04:40 PM
Charley Noble 01 Aug 11 - 11:30 AM
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Keith A of Hertford 25 May 12 - 04:58 AM
bobad 25 May 12 - 07:36 AM
GUEST,Teribus 25 May 12 - 11:30 AM
gnu 25 May 12 - 03:32 PM
Wesley S 25 May 12 - 04:03 PM
Stringsinger 26 May 12 - 01:12 PM
gnu 26 May 12 - 02:01 PM
Jim Carroll 26 May 12 - 02:16 PM
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bobad 11 Feb 13 - 01:57 PM
Little Hawk 11 Feb 13 - 05:03 PM
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Subject: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 01 May 11 - 10:51 PM

It's starting to circulate around the web .... Obama to make news announcement later.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Number 6
Date: 01 May 11 - 10:55 PM

It's now making news on CNN

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: LilyFestre
Date: 01 May 11 - 10:57 PM

It's on NBC as well. Dead by US military action.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Genie
Date: 01 May 11 - 11:01 PM

60 Minutes has also been interrupted for the news confirming that Bin Laden's body is in US custody.

Of course, news reports have been wrong before, but this is not just an internet rumor.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Genie
Date: 01 May 11 - 11:05 PM

President Obama is going to have a TV news conference about this in a few minutes.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Haruo
Date: 01 May 11 - 11:06 PM

It was reported here before it made the front page of Google News!


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 May 11 - 11:08 PM

Stunned and baffled.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: EBarnacle
Date: 01 May 11 - 11:13 PM

Now, can everyone declare victory and go home?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: michaelr
Date: 01 May 11 - 11:15 PM

I want to see the death certificate.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Wesley S
Date: 01 May 11 - 11:15 PM

It's been reported that he was killed by a bomb or missle from the US and that DNA tests confirm that the body is Bin Laden.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: J-boy
Date: 01 May 11 - 11:18 PM

Srange. I feel almost nothing at all. Ten years ago (almost) I would have felt justice had been served with the man's death. Revenge is a very cold dish indeed.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 May 11 - 11:27 PM

Killed by a "US asset" outside Islamabad.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Amergin
Date: 01 May 11 - 11:28 PM

Not going to change anything....they'll just come up with another boogeyman to scare us into submission.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jeri
Date: 01 May 11 - 11:29 PM

So important to get the 'scoop', eh?
Obama was supposed to be on at 10:30, before the leak hit the air. It's nearly an hour later now, everybody knows, and folks have to get up in the morning. I feel very ambivalent about Bin Laden. Glad they finally got him, but not going to put the party hat on and get the noise-maker out.

On a different sort of positive note, this new pre-empted Trump's Celebrity Apprentice. (He fired Hope.)


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 May 11 - 11:33 PM

What if it's not Bin Laden?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Genie
Date: 01 May 11 - 11:34 PM

LOL, MichaelR!   

Will we now have Orly Taitz, Donald Trump, etc., being "deathers?"


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Genie
Date: 01 May 11 - 11:36 PM

Obama is speaking now. Not a press conference but an address to the nation.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 May 11 - 11:46 PM

Yup, he said Bin Laden's dead, killed in an attack on a compound in Pakistan by US forces.

I have no feelings now one way or the other, but that might change.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: J-boy
Date: 01 May 11 - 11:46 PM

Guess who just guaranteed himself a second term?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: bobad
Date: 01 May 11 - 11:47 PM

He is now cavorting in paradise with 72 virgins -- some guys have all the luck.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 May 11 - 11:52 PM

Jesse Ventura said that a week ago, oddly enough. Also, the speech by the President, was the most presidential that I've seen him, ever....even if he was using a teleprompter, and the speech was written a week ago. I hope, though guardedly, that this may begin a easing of tensions, rather than a 'new martyr' to lift up.
GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Don Meixner
Date: 02 May 11 - 12:04 AM

This to me is very good news. I imagine it will disrupt the organization of terror for some time. It won't stop Al Quieda and it will probably have some retaliation. But this will disrupt things for a while.

If ever there was a man who deserved this type of justice it was Bin Laden. The world didn't need him and it won't miss him

Don


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 May 11 - 12:09 AM

Obama pre-empting Trump? I'm starting to see the 2012 election as a "pro wrestling" style scripted battle cooked up between those two. Will they hit each other with fake metal chairs during the "debates"? It is not as if the GOP had Pawlenty of strong candidates.

Navy Seals on the ground in Pakistan, Osama shot in the head, body recovered! I wonder who has the movie rights?

Vin Diesel and The Rock in Osama Vs Obama! Coming to Imax and Real 3d!


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 May 11 - 12:16 AM

Yes! Finally! So many things we do today are impacted by the planning and plotting of that one man. It's time his evil was brought to an end.

Everyone of a certain age will no doubt remember where they were when they heard of the planes hitting the twin towers, just as those of us old enough remember where we were when Kennedy was shot, or the Challenger exploded.

It also seems to be such an incredible weekend of opposites - a Royal Wedding and the death of a Monster. I dubbed it "beauty and the beast" in my twitter feed.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: J-boy
Date: 02 May 11 - 12:17 AM

Throngs are gathering outside the White House and ground zero to celebrate. I thought this sort of tribal enthusiasm was on the wane. I was wrong. But it was nice of Obama to wait until after the royal wedding. And that was just a more civilized form of primal group-think by the way.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: J-boy
Date: 02 May 11 - 12:33 AM

USA! USA! USA! It's just like when we beat the Soviets at hockey! I grow weary of it. So very very weary. Has anybody got a better plan?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Little Robyn
Date: 02 May 11 - 12:51 AM

He has his just desserts!
Somehow, I feel a little safer tonight.
Robyn


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: robomatic
Date: 02 May 11 - 01:08 AM

So was it worth the powder it took to blow him to Hell?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 May 11 - 01:20 AM

It's not been a good year for al-Qaeda. in some ways other events are more important than this--particularly the toppling of Mubarak by a bunch of middle-class Facebook, etc. fans rather than al-Qaeda and other radical groups, which had been trying to remove him for about 30 years.

Al-Qaeda is in grave danger of becoming irrelevant.


But the death of bin Laden certainly will help Obama politically. It will be much harder to argue that he is somehow sympathetic to radical Islam.    So on that score it's great news.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: J-boy
Date: 02 May 11 - 01:22 AM

I can't say I will sleep safer tonight Robyn. We have more important things to worry about than Bin Laden and his ragged group of fundamentalists. I'm more concerned about the thousands of thermonuclear warheads in the armories of the world. That is our real threat. That and the fundamentalists we might elect to office in our own countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 May 11 - 02:05 AM

The sad thing is that more innocent people are going to die now, in the reprisal attacks that will follow as surely as night follows day. Maybe not on the scale of 9/11, but remember Madrid and London, Reid the shoe-bomber et al.

Bin Laden had become almost an irrelevance, they could quite easily have left him to pass away whatever time he had left in a hole in Pakistan, but his death at US-hands will almost certainly re-awaken and re-juvenate The Beast in al-Quaeda. Those guys just love a martyr to avenge, and Bin Laden has just become the biggest of them all.

Enjoy your 'celebrations' if you must but, mark my words, this will all end in tears.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 May 11 - 02:23 AM

Backwoodsman, they were probably going to die anyway. That's the sad truth of an organization like Al Qaeda.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: J-boy
Date: 02 May 11 - 02:33 AM

I only wish Al Qaeda was the disease. They are but a symptom.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 02 May 11 - 02:51 AM

It seems that Bin Laden died using a woman as a human shield. You'd think he might have been less of a coward knowing that Paradise was just moments away, wouldn't you?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: skarpi
Date: 02 May 11 - 02:53 AM

I don`t believe them when they say he is dead , and I don`t believe that
Bin laden was the head of the attack on twin tower , with all the respect for the victim may they rest in peace and god watch over their love onces , I don`t trust Us , it is all about oil and it was about oil
and selling weapons and still is m,its all about power and they who runs don`t give a damm about lives . Power and greed , to make more money
and misery .

I am sorry if some one is hurt my writing , but this my feeling about this and from where I stand , this is my vision . Same goes for the question , is there a live on other planned of course it is , and are the alien `s around yes there is.

Why should we be alone in this huge universe

rest well kv Skarpi


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 May 11 - 02:55 AM

"Backwoodsman, they were probably going to die anyway. That's the sad truth of an organization like Al Qaeda"

The operative word being probably, SRS. Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't. Now, we'll never know, and probability has been turned into certainty. He was a sleeping dog, old and tired, that should have been let lie. Instead he's been 'martyred', and a renewed impetus almost certainly driven into his band of followers who, raggle-taggle though they may be viewed by some, have demonstrated in London, Madrid and other places that they are still capable of inflicting damage and great loss of innocent life.

Ten years ago I'd have joined in the partying. At that time it would have been a hard punch on the nose for al-Quaeda, right when they were busying patting themselves on the back. Unfortunately, the USA-ian idiot who announced that they were tracking Bin Laden by his cellphone-signals blew that chance right out of the water, and gifted him a further ten years of freedom (9/11-conspiracy-theorists, think about that one please!) Today, I think a nest of very dangerous hornets has been given an unnecessary stir for God-knows-what reason.

And, as always, the innocent will pay the price.

Usual disclaimers - IMHO, YMMV etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 May 11 - 02:55 AM

A dead martyr is a dangerous thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 May 11 - 03:30 AM

" . . . For the American forces to expect anything from me personally reflects a very narrow perception. Thousands of millions of Muslims are angry. The Americans should expect reactions from the Muslim world that are proportionate to the injustice they inflict." - Osama bin Laden - to Time Magazine Dec 1998


My Jihad Camel, the one who started his lonely trek across a Libyan desert just a few weeks ago, gained tens of thousands of supporters the other day, when Gadaffi's grandchildren were killed.

Today, it has gained millions more.....


And meanwhile, back at the ranch, the Americans rejoice.


There are times when Rejoicing & Retaliation become Twin Towers of their own, reaching far higher, far wider, into the heart of this world than mere bricks and steel could ever do, castingn shadows so dark that it may take many years for the sun to penetrate.


May God Help Us All, Inshallah


PS: I wonder who they'll blame for everything now?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 May 11 - 04:06 AM

"Bin Laden had become almost an irrelevance, they could quite easily have left him to pass away whatever time he had left in a hole in Pakistan,"

Is there not a case for justice against a mass murderer?
Reprisals?
You would have to believe that they were holding back for some reason.
All they might do is bring forward an attack planned anyway.
That means it is less likely to succeed.

This man said all Americans deserved death without discriminating between military and civilian.
He did kill thousands of you.
He was your enemy.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: C-flat
Date: 02 May 11 - 04:12 AM

Bin Laden will have passed over the operational management of his organisation long ago, although his continued evasion of Western intelligence services still made him a powerful figurehead to every anti-western extremist group.
As such we must now expect some form of retaliation. With luck, their capabilities are seriously limited, and their rush for vengeance may prove ill-planned.
10 years ago Bin Ladens' death may have been a cause for celebration, today, whilst sending a clear message that no matter how long, terrorists will be brought to justice, it signals a time for vigilance.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 02 May 11 - 05:12 AM

Reports from Reuters remain confused. In revenge for a rocket attack by Mohammed Ali on British former boxer Sir Henry Cooper US forces are believed to have attacked the home products warehouse of Osman Bin Liners due to a transcription error on the Special Forces satnav. Buckingham Palace sources have denied that the helicopter shot down was taking a British copuple Mr & MRs Will & Kate Windsor-Wales to their honeymoon in the Maldives. Reports are continuing.

RtS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 02 May 11 - 05:14 AM

This just in: OBL was buried at sea. Admiral Rocco Soprano led a brief committal ceremony: "Sleep with the fishes, mother..."(transmission lost at this point.)

RtS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 02 May 11 - 05:44 AM

Intersting that they got him in Pakistan.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 May 11 - 05:48 AM

ROFLMAO Roger. Knowing the track record of US-Military Intelligence (isn't that an oxymoron?) your report could just be true! :-) :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 May 11 - 05:54 AM

Maybe he's dead.

I hope this means an end to innocent people being killed by drones in ah attempt to kill this pretty irrelevant man.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: gnu
Date: 02 May 11 - 05:56 AM

"Obama struck a less than boastful tone in his brief announcement, although he said the death of bin Laden was "the most significant achievement to date in our nation's effort to defeat al-Qaida.

"His death does not mark the end of our effort. There's no doubt that al-Qaida will continue to pursue attacks against us. We must and we will remain vigilant," he added."


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Arnie
Date: 02 May 11 - 06:50 AM

I wonder if there was a chance of taking him alive? Must've been considered but I suppose that this would have lead to Western hostage-taking on a grand scale by Al Qaeda so much better not to give them the excuse. There will of course still be some nasty retaliation to come but taking hostages will serve no purpose and there will be no trial to disrupt. As his hideout was a high-security compound 70 miles from Islamabad, questions are already being asked about how much the Pakistan authorities knew about his location.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 May 11 - 06:58 AM

Pretty irrelevant?
Obama disagrees.
Early in his office he made him the first priority of the CIA.
You know better?
Bin Laden plotted the violent deaths of you and your loved ones.
It was just chance that they escaped and others just like them died.
Not relevant?
He hated your liberalism and sought to destroy it and you.
Brave men risked their own violent death to protect our liberal ideals from him and his like.
Sure he was less involved in recent years, but can you not acknowledge with some gratitude that a threat to what you hold dear has been removed?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,John MacKenzie
Date: 02 May 11 - 07:10 AM

Osama Obama Ding Dong
Bam Bam, Osama gone
Wham Wham, Obama stay on.
Thump Thump, Donald Trumped!


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Wesley S
Date: 02 May 11 - 07:31 AM

I wonder what the "inside jobbers" will have to say about all of this? Maybe they won't believe it since the body has been buried at sea. They can get together with the Birthers and chant "Where's the body?"


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 May 11 - 07:31 AM

Evidently this raid on Bin Laden's secret compound had been in the planning stages since February. It's nice to know that our armed forces are capable of carrying out such high risk mission.

Now, can we all go home?

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 May 11 - 07:31 AM

Keith -

Al Quaeda, the Taliban, yadda-yadda-yadda - they won't be defeated by the gun. For each one that's blown away, another will spring up to replace him - FACT.

Vengeance is an ugly concept - FACT.

Too many have died in this century already. It won't stop with the killing of OBL, in fact his death will change nothing except, probably, to further radicalise Muslim extremists, and refresh and revitalise their hatred of the US and its allies - FACT.

The time to 'get' OBL was ten years ago - immediate retribution when the scale of his evil-doing was still fresh in everyone's minds (including his followers'). The Muppets blew it back then. It's a complete waste of effort now (unless you happen to be an American President who's trying desperately to secure his future employment) - FACT.

Education, not brute force, is the strongest weapon we have against people like OBL and his followers - FACT.

IMHO, YMMV etc.

I'm out (and I mean it).


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 02 May 11 - 07:40 AM

You can the yanks (poor souls) have little experience of this sort of thing. We had 30 years of this with the IRA. Nows the time you have to be specially careful - some other ghastly atrocity will be committed as a 'reprisal'.

Bet on it.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Arnie
Date: 02 May 11 - 07:44 AM

This is when we discover whether or not there really are 'dirty' nuclear bombs hidden in various cities across the West.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 02 May 11 - 07:50 AM

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth only makes the whole world blind and toothless. (M.M. Gandhi).

Keith, I believe our freedom and liberty had Nothing to do with his hatred of us. Our invasion and occupation of Iraq is why he hated us. He said so and I have no reason to doubt him.

If I was in any part of that area of the world, I would get the hell out, NOW! Mark my words, heads will roll.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 02 May 11 - 08:08 AM

Hard to explain Kendall. but you've got to see it. Its an arab thing. Its still there in the south of Spain, where they ruled for so long. England and especially the USA are seen as pits of moral decadence. Live with it - they hate our guts. Our ability to respond to a smack in the face is probably the one thing they respect.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,John MacKenzie
Date: 02 May 11 - 08:25 AM

Those who swore they wanted dance on his grave, are now free to do so. :-)
Surely his being buried at sea is no bar?
Certainly a difficult place to build a shrine too!


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 02 May 11 - 09:13 AM

Expect immediate retaliatory action on American interests aboard by members/units unable to contain their anger be means of suicide missions. Biggest worry will be from the thinking men within this organisation. They will most likely bide their time until the code red begins to dim. The incident will not go without a credible response, sadly a number of innocent civilians will most likely be the preferred target and pay with their lives.

I recall in Ulster, cutting edge responses usually came within a three year window. Long enough for senior security to relax it's guard and short enough to be seen as a response by those who support them.

His removal was never up for negotiation, he had to go, but I suspect his leadership role diminished several years ago due to inability to travel.   

A very concerning time ahead for all of us.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 May 11 - 09:15 AM

"...England and especially the USA are seen as pits of moral decadence..."

Sadly, they are exactly that.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Wesley S
Date: 02 May 11 - 09:17 AM

Already in my short drive taking my son to school I heard consrvative radio talk show hosts pointing out that this raid had been in the planning stages long before Obama got into office. So why is he getting all the credit? It all started with Bush.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 May 11 - 10:09 AM

Who gives a shit?

Does anyone with even a little brains think the death of this one man in an organization the size of Al Quaida is going to make any difference whatsoever?

Whoopee, the Land Of The Free And The Home Of The Brave carried out an assassination -- and in doing so created another thousand Bin Ladens.

The moment they shot Osama in the head, they shot the U.S. in the foot, if not in a more vital spot.

Besides, chances of being killed by Bin Laden & his gang approach negative numbers. Now, Been Drinkin'- THERE'S a real killer


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 May 11 - 10:34 AM

" "...England and especially the USA are seen as pits of moral decadence..."

Sadly, they are exactly that. "


You say "moral decadence" as if it were a bad thing. Sorry, but neither country has anything to apologize for. Some folks seem to feel that the only defense is to grab your ankles and bend over and apologize for creating the situation. Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

I'm not a flag waver and I'm not about to go dancing in the street, but this threat had to be fought.   Sure, there were many mistakes and many lives wasted. We can't change what has happened, but we can affect the future so that this won't happen again.

Education IS the best defense, and showing Bin Laden with a bullet in his head and dumped in the ocean is a just image of what will happen when you try to inflict warped values on others.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 May 11 - 10:34 AM

The "burial at sea" thing bothers me, nobody sees no body, I don't always believe my government, how about everybody else?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: josepp
Date: 02 May 11 - 10:46 AM

Jeri wrote:
So important to get the 'scoop', eh?
Obama was supposed to be on at 10:30, before the leak hit the air. It's nearly an hour later now, everybody knows, and folks have to get up in the morning. I feel very ambivalent about Bin Laden. Glad they finally got him, but not going to put the party hat on and get the noise-maker out.

On a different sort of positive note, this new pre-empted Trump's Celebrity Apprentice. (He fired Hope.)

***

Proof that in these days of celebrity worship nobody is guilty of anything other than being boring.

But don't worry. The "Osama's not really dead" conspiracy theories are already flying. You can entertain yourself with that, I'm sure.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: kendall
Date: 02 May 11 - 10:46 AM

Allen, how far back do you want to go? The Crusades?, when Richard the Lionheart slaughtered 50,000 Muslim men women and children?He wiped out a whole village of civilians.

The problem is, they are convinced that we are out to destroy Islam, and that is the fuel that keeps them going.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: olddude
Date: 02 May 11 - 10:51 AM

One cannot defeat a movement of hate through a bullet or a bomb. The only thing that defeats hate is to understand the root cause of it and take action to do some good. 1000 more like him just spring up. If his death saves more innocent lives then I accept that but I do not believe it changes anything. Hate brings on more hate ... No matter who the man is, no matter how evil the deeds. I will never celebrate the death of another. With each act of violence, we lose part of ourselves, no matter the country, no matter the race, creed or religion.

The world is a violent place, yes we need to protect ourselves, but we also need to think about our own actions and policies that initially caused the hate to form ..

I am glad to hear no seals were killed or wounded. They just carry out their orders and make no political calls. They take the oath and take it serious and seal team 6 is the best of the best. At least I am thankful they are ok.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: josepp
Date: 02 May 11 - 10:51 AM

////The "burial at sea" thing bothers me, nobody sees no body, I don't always believe my government, how about everybody else?////

So if they showed his body blown to bits, you'd have bought that?

It doesn't make any difference what they show or don't show. We are at the mercy of what the press reports and doesn't report. We hate to admit that we only know what they tell us but it's true. So is he dead or alive? Take your pick.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: jacqui.c
Date: 02 May 11 - 10:56 AM

I prefer to live in a 'morally decadent' country that allows me, as a female, the right to education, to decent medical attention and to being able to choose for myself who and whether to marry. I prefer to be able to dress as I please, even at the risk of offending others,to drive a car, go out unaccompanied, take up whatever work I am capable of and to make the myriad decisions about my own life that are denied to many Muslim women, including being able to divorce an abusive husband and retain custody of my children.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: kendall
Date: 02 May 11 - 11:01 AM

He wasn't "Blown to bits", he was shot in the head.

Old Dude, right on. We should cease disrespecting them and remove the reasons they hate us. ie invading Muslim countries, stationing our "Infidel troops" on their holy ground, and coveting their oil!
We started this punch up when we invaded Iraq 20 years ago. They hit us BACK!


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Wesley S
Date: 02 May 11 - 11:06 AM

////The "burial at sea" thing bothers me, nobody sees no body, I don't always believe my government, how about everybody else?////

The burial at sea also makes sure that there isn't a shrine made out of his body and his funeral can't be turned into an event.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: josepp
Date: 02 May 11 - 11:07 AM

While there is a long history of Western aggression against Islam that may justify some of their actions, let's face it: Islam is a religion in need of enemies.

Look what happens when there's no Jews or Americans around to hate--they turn on each other. Remember when the Sunnis and Shiites were roaming the streets of Baghdad killing each other openly and the US occupational forces could do nothing to stop it but wall themselves inside their little Green Zone compound?

They're great at directing tremendous hate at the West but when there are no Westerners around to hate, they direct it just as virulently at one another.

You know why Sunnis and Shiites are killing each other? They disagree over whether a certain lieutenant of Mohammad was the first or the fourth caliph. That's at the root of their murderous hatred towards one another.

These are people who need someone to hate. It really doesn't matter who. So all this "killing Osama will just make another thousand Osamas want to take his place" is typical bleeding heart crap that ignores the reality of Islam--that there were a thousand Osamas ready to take his place long before he was dead. And if he isn't dead--one of them will surely kill him now so he can take his place.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Bill D
Date: 02 May 11 - 11:19 AM

They announced "big news coming" at 10:15PM, at 10:20, I told my wife,"I'll bet they got bin Laden" at 10:40, news people who had 'sources' could no longer restrain themselves and began leaking what they knew.

As to what it means, and what will happen? That IS speculation. One man whose opinion I respect is Richard Engle, who speaks Arabic and spent much time in Afghanistan. He believes this will 'generally' reduce al Quaida's influence and help end this chapter.
Will there be some individual acts of attempted 'revenge'? Probably...but so what? If we had gotten bin Laden at Tora Bora 9 years ago, there would STILL have been reactions from those who viewed him as a hero!
All we have done is said: "We won't take attacks on us without responding."

What else did they expect?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: bobad
Date: 02 May 11 - 11:20 AM

These are the folks who did the heavy lifting:

"The members of Team 6 are all "black" operatives. They exist outside military protocol, engage in operations that are at the highest level of classification and often outside the boundaries of international law. To maintain plausible deniability in case they are caught, records of black operations are rarely, if ever, kept."

"When a former Navy SEAL was called for a comment about this article all he could say was: "You know I'd love to help you man, but I can't say a word about Team 6. There is no Team 6."

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/05/02/meet-the-navy-seals-who-killed-osama-bin-laden/


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: pdq
Date: 02 May 11 - 11:24 AM

"...questions are already being asked about how much the Pakistan authorities knew about his location."

Actually, the Pakistani government is working against the US in every way possible. They are two-faced SOBs who want the US to lose in Afghanistan and they allow the Taliban to have safe refuge in the western part of their counrty. They are Muslim and we are not. It's that simple.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 May 11 - 11:27 AM

The "burial at sea" thing bothers me, nobody sees no body, I don't always believe my government, how about everybody else?

Thinking logically: There's nothing the USA could win by lying in this case. OBL would love to send a tape in which he speaks about an event after yesterday and Obama would have egg on his face.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Taconicus
Date: 02 May 11 - 11:28 AM

It's a nice change that we finally did everything right: don't inform the false Pakistani allies in advance so he's not warned; shoot to kill, not capture, so we don't have a show trial or hostages taken to secure his release; dump (er, bury) the body at sea so we don't have a grave to serve as a shrine for his followers, etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 02 May 11 - 11:32 AM

Some of these comments remind me of an old joke.

A boxer goes into the ring and the bell sounds for the first round. He is first tapped a couple of times by his opponent, and responds by covering up and retreating. His opponent then comes after him in a flurry of punches which rock him, but he recovers and continues covering up. At the end of the round, his trainer holds a wet cloth to his battered face and says "why in hell don't you hit him back?"
The fighter looks at the trainer through swollen eyes and says "I don't want to make him mad."

Bin Laden intentionally murdered 3000 innocent people and was the sworn enemy of my country. I don't care if it happened yesterday or ten years ago. He got less than what he deserved in my opinion. They should have turned him over to the thousands who lost family members to his twisted blood lust. I thank and congratulate the brave men who were dropped into his compound and flushed him out of his nest.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Amos
Date: 02 May 11 - 11:33 AM

I am glad to hear it, although I see no grounds for celebration.

My prediction: the several branches of Al Qeda will begin sputtering and dying out by attrition.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 May 11 - 11:38 AM

No matter who the man is, no matter how evil the deeds. I will never celebrate the death of another. With each act of violence, we lose part of ourselves, no matter the country, no matter the race, creed or religion.

Same here, olddude.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Taconicus
Date: 02 May 11 - 11:40 AM

A number of people around here are so steeped in the anti-(American) military tradition that they could never bring themselves to find cause for celebration in any American military victory.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Beer
Date: 02 May 11 - 11:50 AM

My exactly Amos. I look at the celebrations over hear and think the only thing missing is guns shooting in the air. Is it really the end of a great war? I don't think so. A quiet vigil would show a lot more class and respect.
ade.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 02 May 11 - 11:57 AM

I don't see a reason to parade in the street waving a flag either. I would suggest it is highly appropriate, whatever your feeling about this, to take a moment and pause, and think about where these people might be today if Bin Laden had never existed.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 May 11 - 12:05 PM

Osama Bin Laden was responsible for the deaths of thousands, not only in the US but all in other countries. His orders killed Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, and those of other faiths or no faith at all.

I wish he could have been brought to trial (the order, according to Obama, was to "capture or kill"). Now, according to his faith, he has to answer to a Higher Judge -- I wouldn't want to be in his shoes.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: josepp
Date: 02 May 11 - 12:10 PM

The bleeding hearts on here are really starting to piss me off. If you don't like this country GET THE FUCK OUT!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,John MacKenzie
Date: 02 May 11 - 12:16 PM

Which country?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 02 May 11 - 12:19 PM

Well, josepp, it might be pointed out that many of the posters to this thread are not residents of this country. In addition, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and that's what America is supposed to be about, right?
Having said that, I completely get why you are pissed off.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: michaelr
Date: 02 May 11 - 12:27 PM

Josepp, if you don't like this forum, why don't you get the fuck out?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: josepp
Date: 02 May 11 - 12:34 PM

Anybody who lives outside the US who are criticizing the US action to kill Bin Laden need to shut up. 9-11 didn't happen in their country.

And it wasn't payback for Iraq. Apparently these idiots don't realize that Bush's illegal invasion of Iraq happened AFTER 9-11. And for the record-- I despise George Bush and everything he stands for and I loathe with every fiber of my being anyone who supports him. After Abu Ghraib, I consider such scum scarcely human.

But the people who participated in torture at Abu Ghraib were disgraced, some sent to prison. The US doesn't always do the right thing. I was ashamed of the invasion of Iraq. But Bin Laden declared war on the US and drew innocent blood without a hint of an apology for it. He got what he deserved.

I'm sick of these "every person who is killed takes away from us" bullshit. It's letting certain people live who don't deserve it which disrespects that person's victims and their families that takes away from us. They hide their cowardice behind bullshit platitudes and use it to act holier than thou and I am goddamn sick of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: josepp
Date: 02 May 11 - 12:36 PM

////Josepp, if you don't like this forum, why don't you get the fuck out?////

I wouldn't give you the satisfaction.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Donuel
Date: 02 May 11 - 12:42 PM

Ding Dong! bin Laden's dead. Which old bitch? The Wicked bitch!
Ding Dong! The Wicked bitch is dead.
Wake up - you sleepy head, rub your eyes, get out of bed.
Wake up, the Wicked bitch is dead.
He's gone where goblins go,
Below - below - below. Yo-ho, let's open up and sing and ring the bells out.
Ding Dong' the merry-oh, sing it high, sing it low.
Let them know
The Wicked bitch is dead!

(Obama)
As commander and chief, In the County of the Land of Ooz, I inform you most regally.
(Petraus)
But we've got to verify it legally, to see
(Panetta)
To see?
(O'Reilly)
If he
(Panetta)
Is burned and buried at sea
(O"Reilly))
Is morally, ethicly, certainly, interestingly
(Father No.1)
Spiritually, physically
Father No. 2
Positively, absolutely
(Talking Heads)
Undeniably and reliably Dead

(DNA expert)
As Coroner I must concur, I thoroughly examined his mitochondrial DNA cross referencing it with his sister...
And he's not only merely dead, he's really most sincerely dead.
(Obama)
Then this is a day of Independence For all good Americans and their descendants
(Petraus)
If any.
(Panetta)
Yes, let the joyous news be spread The wicked Old bitch at last is dead!


-------------------------------


as for my fellow Americans telling other fellow Americans to get out of the country, that is of course the most Un American thing you can say, intend and spew. Get a grip or get some help.

Remember your hero,
"FInding bin Laden is not important"
George W Bush


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: olddude
Date: 02 May 11 - 12:43 PM

No Seal Team 6 is not black ops. They are counter Terrorism specialists and the most highly trained unit in the Seals. They are currently on loan to the CIA but they are not black ops ... that is entirely different and usually involves Delta or the CIA's own special tactical group


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 02 May 11 - 12:45 PM

The "burial at sea" thing bothers me, nobody sees no body, I don't always believe my government, how about everybody else?

What, do we think he was stuffed and mounted on somebody's wall?

Bin Laden releases a video every two or three months. Don't you think he'd already have one on Al Jazeera if he was alive?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Donuel
Date: 02 May 11 - 12:50 PM

There is a picture of the hole in the water where he was dumped, if that makes you feel better.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Donuel
Date: 02 May 11 - 12:53 PM

We have retained his nose and are storing it in liquid nitrogen.
Perhaps one day it will be stolen and they will try to clone fearless leader back to life from his nose...or has that already been done?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 02 May 11 - 12:55 PM

And a Holy Hole it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Donuel
Date: 02 May 11 - 12:56 PM

We have seen what has become of the Birthers.

Ir you really want to contest the death of he who I will no longer mention, you will be reffered to as the crazy Deather.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: bobad
Date: 02 May 11 - 12:57 PM

More on the Navy Seal team that got him, also photos and schemata of his compound: http://nationaljournal.com/whitehouse/the-secret-team-that-killed-bin-laden-20110502


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Donuel
Date: 02 May 11 - 01:05 PM

I have video of two well known generals conversing and gleefully gesticulating prior to the Obama announcment at Noon today. You can clearly see one general excitedly describing the wounds of "the evil one" by pointing to the left eye and temporal region as well as the right occipital region. He did this by pointing to places on the other general's head and then pointing to his own left eye.

I thought of kids in a candy store.

These kind of dark scenarios is what I refer to as the new American Gothic.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 May 11 - 01:07 PM

I am certainly concerned that the absence of a dead body will fail to seem convincing to the Arab world.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Donuel
Date: 02 May 11 - 01:19 PM

"Why didn't Pakistan help us find bin Laden, after all we have given them 18 billion dollars since 2001 to help us find him?"


isn't it great when they answer their own question with the question itself?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 02 May 11 - 01:26 PM

You know, Richard, it wouldn't be entirely surprising to find out that a video showing Osama was being cobbled together to inform the Arab World that he's still alive. You have to wonder if he was smart enough to have pre-filmed something that would dispute claims that he was killed, which could be photoshopped with, for example, a 5/3 edition newspaper.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 02 May 11 - 01:34 PM

"And it wasn't payback for Iraq. Apparently these idiots don't realize that Bush's illegal invasion of Iraq happened AFTER 9-11."

That's correct. I think the prior poster was confusing Bin Laden's statement about his reasons for the 9/11 attack. In fact he claimed that it was retribution for the American-Israeli alliance, the Israeli occupation of Palastine and invasion of Lebanon:

    "Allah knows it did not cross our minds to attack the towers but after the situation became unbearable and we witnessed the injustice and tyranny of the American-Israeli alliance against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, I thought about it. And the events that affected me directly were that of 1982 and the events that followed – when America allowed the Israelis to invade Lebanon, helped by the U.S. Sixth Fleet. As I watched the destroyed towers in Lebanon, it occurred to me punish the unjust the same way (and) to destroy towers in America so it could taste some of what we are tasting and to stop killing our children and women."

    – Osama bin Laden, 2004[98]


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Donuel
Date: 02 May 11 - 01:44 PM

All biting satire aside...


After spending nearly 4 trillion dollars off budget in military expenditures since 2002 followed by a Wall St. inside job of stealing another 4 trillion dollars by fraudulently wagering up to 90 trillion...
what ever ideas Usama bin laden had by attacking our financial center and hoping for a bankrupting war similar to the Russians in Afghanistan that led to the loss of their empire, I daresay his prayers were answered many times over.

Given these facts, the same issues I warned about 10 years ago, I am sad to say bin Laden was partly victorious in the financial destruction of America.

Didn't anyone in the Bush Administartion read the Art of War?
















Similar to Bill D's psychic notion that an annourcment of our getting bin Laden was forthcoming, I said 8 years ago that if we want to have any chance of getting this guy we will need to follow his video tape courior.





regarding cable news.

There is a difference of course between the FOX converage of this event compared to NBC.

FOX says that Usama was told told to surrender before he was shot.
NBC says that capture was not the mission. It was only to kill.

FOX said his body was burned and then buried at sea.
NBC describes cleansing, wrapping, prayers in Arabic and burial at sea.

FOX mentioned Obama by name less than 6 times all day unless it was a quote by Dick Cheney who mentioned Obama by name. Otherwise FOX only says "The President". George W Bush is mentioned by name more than Obama. Obama is critisized for his handling of this mission.

NBC is roughly the opposite of the above.

FOX is saying that this mission is hard proof for an increased use of rendition and special interrogation techniques.

Both NBC and FOX have only seldom mentioned the killing of his adult son and the wounding of his wife.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 May 11 - 02:01 PM

UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon on Monday hailed Osama bin Laden's death as a key turning point in the world's struggle against terrorism.

"The death of Osama bin Laden, announced by President (Barack) Obama last night, is a watershed moment in our common global fight against terrorism," Ban told reporters.

Maybe he and Obama know something Mudcat libs don't?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: saulgoldie
Date: 02 May 11 - 02:24 PM

This from Andy Borowitz:

WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report) – In what historians are calling an unprecedented development in American politics, both major parties decided today to cancel the 2012 election.

The decision to scrap the 2012 contest came on the heels of a new poll showing President Barack Obama with an approval rating of one hundred percent, believed to be a record high for an American president.

Mr. Obama even polled well among Republicans, with a majority of GOP voters agreeing with the statement, "I no longer care that he wasn't born here."

The new bipartisan spirit sweeping the nation was captured well by House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio), who tearfully told reporters, "This is a great day for America… oh, leave me alone, goddamn it."

Republican presidential hopeful Donald Trump made no official announcement, but sources said he was considering running for Prime Minister of Canada.

The cancellation of the election comes in the aftermath of the death of Osama bin Laden, whose last words reportedly were, "I knew I shouldn't have signed up for Foursquare."

Of all the major news networks, Fox News did not report news of bin Laden's death, saying that it would air cartoons "until further notice."

In Libya, Colonel Muammar Gaddafi issued the following official statement: "Uh-oh."

In North Korea, President Kim Jong-Il said this: "I have lost my last friend on Facebook."

And in Wasilla, former Alaska Governor Sarah Palin said this: "We must find and kill Osama bin Laden."


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 May 11 - 02:28 PM

It may have made things more dangerous id the very short run. In the long run, he is not much of a martyr caught cowering in his million dollar bunker. As for being safer, there is this. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/05/02/cia-analyze-electronic-evidence-seized-bin-laden-compound/

Fox is reporting a large quantity of valuable information found in the compound. Fox is no friend of the Administration. So there is probably some truth to the report.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: kendall
Date: 02 May 11 - 02:30 PM

josepp, better get out the bifocals and look again. The first invasion of Iraq happened in 1991.
Osama also said they hate us for the reasons I already stated.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 May 11 - 02:31 PM

Well, he would say that. Can you imagine him saying "It doesn't really make much difference"?

Bin Laden was probably more of a cheerleader than anything. If anything being killed will make him a more effective cheerleader. It's hard to see any way in which it makes it any more likely that the people who share his ideology will give up or be defeated any more quickly because he is dead.

And what on earth are you adopting this Americanised jargon about "libs" for, Keith? Barack Obama is a "lib", in that sense, and so are you.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 02 May 11 - 02:37 PM

Had Ted Bundy been prevented from further serial killing and become only a "cheerleader" for serial killing, or for that matter for the abolition of capital punishment, it wouldn't have made him any more benign or any less deserving of his fate.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: olddude
Date: 02 May 11 - 02:38 PM

Look I am a person with military ties in my family back through the ages. I have a deep love and respect for those in uniform. I trained people in uniform.   However, my heart and conscience says revenge is never a good path to take. I have no desire to mourn for that guy, he was pure evil ... my comment was, in order to stop terrorism you have to address the root cause you can't stop it with bullets ... I think that is a logical assumption. Likewise, even in battle, I take no delight in the killing of another. At times it has to be done to protect others, but it is nothing to cheer about I think anyway. My only concern is we did not lose any of our people during the mission.   Bin Laden was evil, but finding out what made him that way and taking steps to stop the creation of another Bin Laden is the proper path ... If it is our policies, or our attitudes or our whatever then we need to address that. There will also be people who just do evil things for no reason .. I know that also .. but celebrating a death no matter who it is , I think is not the right path in life.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 02 May 11 - 03:14 PM

It's called justice, old dude, and I think that's what he got. I am not saying that we don't need to understand his motivations, or deal with the conditions that created him, or examine our own transgressions in the middle east.
Clyde Barrow was raised in an era of great poverty, repression, and injustice in the 30s. So was my Grandfather. The difference is my Grandfather treated people well, worked hard, and scrapped for a living. Clyde Barrow robbed banks and killed people. There is no doubt that a depression is a bad thing and needs to be prevented or eradicated. To do so, we must understand the facts about a depression. But morality, justice, and ethics are primary codes of human behavior, and someone like Clyde barrow, or Bin Laden, should never be excused for his actions, especially when performed on the scale of mass murder.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: frogprince
Date: 02 May 11 - 03:17 PM

"They hide their cowardice behind bullshit platitudes"

Josepp, you have all the right in the world to disagree with the stance of the people you're speaking of. But you have no justification whatever for linking their position to cowardice, and you are responding to an individual whom you have no justification whatever for marking as cowardly.

                      Dean


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: olddude
Date: 02 May 11 - 03:19 PM

Ej
I can completely understand that logic my dear friend, I do ... I will shed no tear for that creep ... I just won't celebrate it ... but I can certainly understand those who do for sure.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 May 11 - 03:19 PM

Kendall, I think your point was a good one. I think the problem was in the way you put it.

As I recall it, what Bin Laden said was that he was fighting at that time was the presence of infidels in Saudi Arabia. Though there was a lot of aerial bombardment at the time and Allied troops did cross Iraqi borders while chasing the invasion force out of Kuwait, Iraq was not per se invaded at that time. And I have never heard anything form Bin Laden indicating that he cared at all about Iraq until the GW Bush invasion.

That said, I don't think we could have allowed Saddam to keep Kuwait and to threaten Saudi Arabia just because Bin Laden did not like it. I think that G H W Bush did what he had to. So did Clinton. The major mistakes on this matter were made by W.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 02 May 11 - 03:29 PM

old dude, agreed. That's why today I am keeping in mind the victims of 911 and their families. I think this brings some closure to them, as it does to the country.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 May 11 - 03:30 PM

When the compound was stormed, bin Laden was found in an upstairs room. The troops who found him said that he was using a woman as a shield. They said he was given an opportunity to surrender and come quietly, but instead he reached for a weapon. The troops fired, carefully avoiding hitting the woman, hitting bin Laden twice in the head.

Muslim funeral rituals require that a person who has just died must be buried within twenty-four hours. bin Laden's body was ceremonially washed as is required by Muslim law, and the funeral ceremony was properly conducted by an Imam before he was buried at sea.

Wesley has the right of it. The decision to bury him at sea was in order to avoid his grave, wherever it might have been, from becoming "the shrine of a martyr."

The "birthers," now the "deathers" ("I don't believe it! Where's the body!?"), and all the conspiracy theory squirrel bait out there (and, of course, right here on Mudcat) are going to have a field day. But then, what's new?

A day for celebration? I think not! I felt that all that cheering and flag-waving is quite inappropriate. A feeling of grim satisfaction, yes. But celebrating? Kind of tacky.

*** *** *** *** *** *** ***
For the person who, whenever Barack Obama appears on television, never fails to say something about his using a teleprompter, as if Obama where incapable of stringing together a cohesive sentence (like Sarah Palin, who, when she starts a sentence in Ohio, it winds up on Mars and contains neither subject nor predicate). Actually, Obama, a very bright man, has, on many occasions, proven himself to be an excellent extemporaneous speaker. The remark, of course, is to try make him out to be some sort of mushy-brained doofus, which he obviously is not.

Profession broadcasters who work before television cameras all the time use teleprompters, and it only makes sense, if one is delivering a formal address on nationwide television, to have one's notes, or for that matter, the entire speech, written out and available on a teleprompter. Before television cameras and telepromters, speakers (FDR, Eisenhower, whoever) during the days of radio, often read their speeches from typed text, or most certainly from outlined notes.

Many popular entertainers use a teleprompter. And before it was invented, entertainers (Andy Williams, other singers, various comedians) had The Words written out in large letters on large cards held by someone standing next to the camera, who carefully changed cards as the song or routine progressed.

So—give it a rest, already!! It just makes YOU look petty and mean-spirited.

That's a friendly tip, by the way.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: gnu
Date: 02 May 11 - 03:35 PM

In light of the varied discussions herein, I have a question... in the "Bible' ir in the "Torah", are there any "directives" to kill people of other faiths simply based on their faith?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 May 11 - 03:41 PM

I don't think that the people celebrating V-E day and V-J were celebrating the tens of thousands of deaths in Nagasaki and Dresden. I think that they were happy and proud that their side had prevailed and an arduous and trying period of the war was over.

I'm not saying that the manhunt for Bin Laden was equal to the war in scale or cost to the country. On the other hand the celebration on the streets for the end of the threat of Bin Laden also was much smaller.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 May 11 - 03:43 PM

Gnu, I'd like for you to explain your question a bit. You seem to be implying that Bin Laden was killed for his faith. That's not like you at all so I am sure that I missed something.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Amos
Date: 02 May 11 - 03:48 PM

Let me point out that this entire operation probably cost less than fifty million, including choppers and intel. Imagine if we had categorized this man as a high-pri international criminal target of special ops ten years ago? We'd have had him by 2005, I imagine.

Ten years ago a bad policy call by a stupid individual put us instead on a course of invasion and war. PErhaps there's a lewsson to be learned here?


A


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 May 11 - 03:55 PM

"...You say "moral decadence" as if it were a bad thing. Sorry, but neither country has anything to apologize for. Some folks seem to feel that the only defense is to grab your ankles and bend over and apologize for creating the situation. Sorry, it doesn't work that way...."


Ron, when Al used that term, to me it meant moral decay, morals thrown out the window, morals and outlook going down, down, deeper and down.

Whether we like it or not, that's exactly what has happened in both our countries. Personally, I don't like it.

Moral decadence, to me, has *nothing* to do with women being treated as equals...(this is in relation to jacqui's post) I've said many a time that until the women of the Middle East rise up against how they are treated nothing will move forwards respect-wise. Of course women should have the same rights as men, be free to make their own choices, etc..I don't argue with that at all.

What saddens me is how things have progressed in our country these days, to a state of *anything* goes, because it seems to me that so many folks, men and women alike, have lost respect for themselves over here and in the USA.   We really could do with folks putting their clothes back on a bit more, raising the standard of behaviour and having both respect for others and respect for themselves.

That's what I was talking about, nowt to do with women's freedom etc, which goes without saying.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Bill D
Date: 02 May 11 - 03:59 PM

I repeat what I said above" "If we had gotten bin Laden at Tora Bora 9 years ago, there would STILL have been reactions from those who viewed him as a hero!"

Likewise..If we had gotten bin Laden at Tora Bora 9 years ago, or even had been successful in those several years BEFORE 9/11, there would have been little concern over our motives, or our methods! If a bully hits you, and it takes you awhile to get justice, are you less entitled?

Bin Laden was a symbol to terrorists and a future danger if we had simply gotten tired of looking and given up.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jeri
Date: 02 May 11 - 04:10 PM

My life was directly, but only moderately affected by him for about 3 weeks in June, 1998.

He was a threat before 9/11, and he would have continued to be a threat as long as he lived. I don't want to celebrate, either. The only option was to get rid of him, and while people are likely glad that one less killer is out in the world, nobody, including me, wants to think about what had be done to eliminate him.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 May 11 - 04:23 PM

While there may be occasions in which police or military in a police role may lawfully use "deadly force" without the target having been lawfully condemned to death, for example when someone is lawfully required to yield and in stead reaches for a weapon, what legal right did US forces have to detain someone in Pakistan?

I am quite concerned that if this US action was lawful (as distinct from desirable - I think it quite likely that it was desirable although I worry about the creation of a martyr and the absence of populist proof of death) then there may be many outside the USA who might claim that similar attempts to seize someone in the USA would be lawful and that their resistance rendered killing them lawful.

Much the same I think applies to attempts to kill Gadaffi - the distinction between "control and command" and him personally being a silly and transparent sophistry.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 May 11 - 04:26 PM

I can't see how stuff about a "end of a threat" are relevant - Bin Laden is no less of a threat dead than alive.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: gnu
Date: 02 May 11 - 04:56 PM

JtS... explain my question...

Okay, here it is... again... but MUCH more clearly asked.

In light of the varied discussions herein, I have a question... in the "Bible' or in the "Torah", are there any "directives" to kill people of other faiths simply based on their faith?

Sorry about the typo. I am sure that is what threw you off.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Taconicus
Date: 02 May 11 - 05:01 PM

Donuel, I've been watching all three cable networks sequentially, and most of what you say about the difference between the coverage by the three networks is false. Perhaps you're hearing the coverage through your own perceptual filter.

FOX said his body was burned and then buried at sea.
False. Fox News says buried, not burned, "according to Islamic tradition." Not once did they say burned.

FOX mentioned Obama by name less than 6 times all day unless it was a quote by Dick Cheney who mentioned Obama by name. Otherwise FOX only says "The President". George W Bush is mentioned by name more than Obama.
I've heard no perceptible difference in the coverage in this regard between the three cable networks.

[On FOX] Obama is critisized for his handling of this mission.
I've been watching since last night, and I've heard no criticism whatsoever on Fox News (or the other networks) for the handling of this mission. In fact, they've been outright laudatory.

FOX is saying that this mission is hard proof for an increased use of rendition and special interrogation techniques.
Fox News did mention that the intel for the mission was obtained by rendition, and suggested this would be evidence in favor of those techniques, but they never used the term "hard proof" or anything like it. I believe this may be your editorial contribution.

Both NBC and FOX have only seldom mentioned the killing of his adult son and the wounding of his wife.
No perceptible difference between the three cable networks in reporting this.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 May 11 - 05:10 PM

Donuel,

Once again, you have done BRILL with your parody skills. PLEASE send it to Rachel Maddow or give me permission to do so?

Jeri, well said, I agree.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: gnu
Date: 02 May 11 - 05:29 PM

Richard... "Much the same I think applies to attempts to kill Gadaffi - the distinction between "control and command" and him personally being a silly and transparent sophistry."

Indeed, such is, at the VERY least, an insult (sorry for such a POOR term) to all. It is inane.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 02 May 11 - 06:10 PM

The killing of Bin Laden will not stop the AQ carrying out further attacks, however it has removed a figurehead and an important one at that.

Had he been captured alive then that would have led to kidnappings and deaths worldwide in order to free him. So it was a right decision to take him out.

AQ will of course continue their attacks and continue to promote hate on non muslims, they now have a saint on which to hang their beliefs.

Been listening to the BBC news and it appears that he was given a respectful sea burial, not just dumped. That at least shows some forethought on the part of the people behind the operation.

I can never see the end of the terrorism, it will never go away, it is now so deeply rooted and entrenched in all parts of the middle east and quite honestly there is no one who can stop it unless you take out all fundementalists of all religeons and that is never going to happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Wesley S
Date: 02 May 11 - 06:11 PM

This will show what I think happened yesterday:


Youtube Filmclip


Did he feel happy about what happened - no

Did he celebrate - no

Would he do it again tomorrow - you bet.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 May 11 - 06:12 PM

Actually, Osama Bin Laden didn't kill anyone.

His minions did.

In which case, why hasn't Navy Seal Team 6 put bullets into Henry Kissinger's head?

Ain't that just the American Way, tho - an extra-legal assasination without trial.

Makes me so proud, I could just shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Wesley S
Date: 02 May 11 - 06:24 PM

"Makes me so proud, I could just shit. "

Please don't. One of you is enough....


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 May 11 - 06:31 PM

Hey, Wes- what about that "rule of law", & "due process" bullshit, eh? Just something to be disregarded as it suits, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 May 11 - 06:32 PM

Kinda puts the Land Of The Free on the same level as the Tay-Rists, don't it, Wes?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Wesley S
Date: 02 May 11 - 06:36 PM

Check out the film clip Greg. That should explain to to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Wesley S
Date: 02 May 11 - 06:39 PM

Maybe another film clip would help.....

The Rule of Law


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Janie
Date: 02 May 11 - 06:41 PM

Well said, Jeri.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: gnu
Date: 02 May 11 - 06:43 PM

Wesley S... the video... indeed. Well "said". RATHER well said indeed. My hat is off to you sir.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 02 May 11 - 07:06 PM

Actually Donuel's characterization of the FOX coverage is pretty good. They interviewed *only* former Bush admin people (Chertoff, Perino, etc.) and lauded the information gained at Gitmo by enhanced interrogation,nary a mention of the current president. It was a day-long celebration of GWB.

Oh, and by the way, a number of FOX stations mistakenly (yeah right) put up headlines or crawlers saying that Obama bin Laden was dead. No shit. Go Google it.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Janie
Date: 02 May 11 - 07:11 PM

Thanks for that To Kill a Mockingbird clip, Wesley.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Janie
Date: 02 May 11 - 07:23 PM

A somewhat thoughtful article.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/05/02/osama.bin.laden.emotions/index.html?hpt=T1


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: bobad
Date: 02 May 11 - 07:36 PM

For those wringing their hands over the legality of the op, I heard a spokesman for the Pakistani foreign service saying that Pakistan had an agreement with the US that if they located Bin Laden in Pakistan they could take him out.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Joe_F
Date: 02 May 11 - 08:00 PM

Good riddance, anyway.
ObSongs:
    We will heave him down into some dark hole
    Where the sharks'll have his body and the Devil have his soul.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Janie
Date: 02 May 11 - 08:00 PM

skarpi, I can't simply let your post stand, even knowing you are a popular figure here, and I am likely to be castigated for commenting.

First, let me say I do not celebrate the death of bin Laden. I do not celebrate the death of any person. I accept your antipathy and complete but somewhat (though not entirely) irrational antipathy and mistrust toward the United States as your right, and of course understand that you do not advocate violence toward us. I also accept that every person's point of view is valid from their perspective.   

What you wrote was.... I don`t believe that
Bin laden was the head of the attack on twin tower ....


Osama bin Laden very publicly claimed credit for the attack on the Twin Towers. He was a very smart man, and very certain of his righteousness and his mission. He went to great pains, and made considerable personal sacrifice, to organize and provide the seed financing for a terrorist group known as Al Qaeda, and in his righteous certainty, sowed more seeds of hate and terrorism around the world.

The implication of your statement, intended or not, is that the United States staged the attacks on September 11, 2001 for the sake of oil.    I find that both absurd and offensive.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: josepp
Date: 02 May 11 - 09:03 PM

////josepp, better get out the bifocals and look again. The first invasion of Iraq happened in 1991.
Osama also said they hate us for the reasons I already stated.////

Newsflash: there was no invasion of Iraq in 1991. They were pushed out of Kuwait. They were not pursued across the borders of Iraq and Hussein was left in power. THAT's what Osama didn't like.

Bin Laden and Hussein despised one another. Why do you think there were no Iraqi hijackers on 9-11 and no al-Qaida in Iraq? The US did him the biggest favor by taking out Saddam. No matter what Bin Laden says (and who in their right mind would take anything he says at face value?), Saddam hated him and would have had him killed if he dared set foot in Iraq which is why he never did.

Osama Bin Laden gave us George Bush the dictator, he gave us the REAL Invasion of Iraq, he gave us the War on Terror, he gave us the no-fly list and TSA body searches and the Patriot Act and the rise of Iran. If it hadn't been for him, Geroge Bush would have been done in 4 years. So am I glad he's dead? You're fuckin' A right I'm glad he's dead. I wish he'd died back in 1998 and saved the world a whole lot of trouble.

So, in many ways, he won. He got what he wanted. So fuck him.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 May 11 - 09:25 PM

I don't have the smallest smidgeon of concern for Osama Bin Laden, or any other terrorist. As far as I am concerned the only just end for them is death.

I'm glad he has gone although the idea that his death makes anyone safer is naive in the extreme.

I am concerned by the establishment of what I consider to be a dangerous precedent.

Ex Pakistan leader Musharraf was interviewed on BBC TV News this morning, and his views are very similar to my own. American special forces violated the sovereignty of an ally (nominally at least) in an action which would in the past have been considered an act of war.

Now it has been said above that there was tacit agreement with the current Pakistan government (as yet unconfirmed), but a precedent has still been set, of military action in a foreign sovereign state without the specific consent or knowledge of that state's rulers.

So, when the US gets its next GeeDub type President, we might expect some nasty situations to develop.

Or maybe we won't have to wait that long. Could we see Assange surgically removed from Sweden, or that young fool who hacked US computers taken off English soil.

I don't really expect either of those scenarios to occur. I just feel that the world has become a little less safe from the US, and I wonder what the US response would be if a high priority target terrorist were snatched from US soil by the SAS without the White House being notified.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 May 11 - 09:37 PM

Josepp, it would be a great surprise to a number of friends of mine to be told that Coalition troops did not cross the borders of Iraq. Wonder where they were, really? This might refresh your memory.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Taconicus
Date: 02 May 11 - 09:46 PM

There's a difference between celebrating the death of Osama bin Laden as an expression of hatred, and celebrating his death as a victory against Al Qaeda, which it is. For great many reasons, his death is a big advance in that war, which is still continuing. It's not morally wrong to celebrate it for that reason.

Nor is it wrong to feel that it is a victory for justice.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 May 11 - 10:00 PM

Justice requires due process.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Janie
Date: 02 May 11 - 10:04 PM

The following link was posted by a fellow Mudcatter on their facebook page. Without that person's permission, I'm not comfortable with attributing that person's posting of the link.

Very thoughtful, what is expressed.

http://ethicalplatform.net/leaders/2011/05/a-time-to-mourn/


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: EBarnacle
Date: 02 May 11 - 10:20 PM

I heard and interesting report on one of the financial sites. It seems that the long term effect of taking out OBL may be that the funding of al-Qaeda will dry up. Apparently, it has become increasingly difficult for AQ fundraisers to raise money unless they were able to get back to OBL to verify their legitimacy.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Bobert
Date: 02 May 11 - 10:29 PM

Well, I didn't learn of this until just a couple of hours ago... Been kinda busy... Haven't read all this thread either...

But...

... as much as I hate seeing people killed for their ideas I guess I'd rather see them get off'd than a couple hundred innocent people... Take Saddam... We could have off'd him and saved 4000 Americans and maybe a million Iraqis??? Yeah, that would have been messed up to have off'd Saddam but just do the "numbers game"???

Nah, this all boils down to ending the geo-political war that has been going on since WW II... I mean, we keep havng these "proxy wars"... Problem is that real people get real dead in them...

In the words of the late and great Waylon Jennings, "We need a change..."

But, hey, at least the Repubs gott eat a little crow pie tonight so Obama has a couple days off from the "birther" loonies... I mean, a couple days off from loonies ain't a bad thing...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Bill D
Date: 02 May 11 - 10:32 PM

"Justice requires due process." Spoken like one who makes his living following specific FORMS of due process....and there in nothing wrong with that, when it is both possible and appropriate.

...but 'due process' can defined in various ways. Formal 'legal' due process is only one way. When a terrorist or other serious criminal had vowed NOT to be taken alive, and is protected in various ways, justice can be served in other ways.


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Subject: Obama Bin Laden ???
From: Taconicus
Date: 02 May 11 - 10:38 PM

Justice requires due process. – R. Bridge

He got the kind of due process that is due an enemy on the battlefield, as appropriate.

Oh, and by the way, a number of FOX stations mistakenly (yeah right) put up headlines or crawlers saying that Obama bin Laden was dead. No shit. Go Google it. – Tia

Not exactly, Tia. A local Fox affiliate station in Sacramento, California did show a headline that read: "Obama bin Laden dead". But mentioning that as an example of media bias at Fox News is disingenuous, and only shows the bias of the poster, because it doesn't mention all the other stations that made the same easy mistake. Leftwinger Keith Olbermann made the same slip – blogging that George W Bush had "deprioritised the hunt for Obama". An MSNBC correspondent tweeted: "Obama shot and killed". In fact, the mistake was so common that a number of other anchors or journalists also got their Obamas and Osamas mixed up, including at CNN and ABC News stations.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: kendall
Date: 02 May 11 - 10:49 PM

Ok, let's split a few hairs. What Osama objected to was our invasion of Muslin holy ground whether it be Iraq or Kuwait. We are still there and they still hate us for it.
Too many people believe that Bush lie about our freedom being the cause of their hate. Bollox!

Comparing Bin Laden to Clyde Barrow just doesn't fly. Barrow was seveley abused in prison and he vowed to get even. He did.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 May 11 - 10:55 PM

I am no more celebrating the death of Osama bin Laden than I celebrated the death of Idi Amin or Saddam Hussein. Saddam had a trial, in his own country, and he was punished under his country's laws. Amin died a "natural death," as I remember. bin Laden had declared "a Holy War" against the US:

"We declared jihad against the US government, because the US government is unjust, criminal and tyrannical. It has committed acts that are extremely unjust, hideous and criminal whether directly or through its support of the Israeli occupation."
                      - Osama bin Laden - to CNN in March 1997

If someone declares war on me and takes violent actions against me I will defend myself as I find appropriate to the situation. Whether or not this applies to nations I don't know.

I do know that a human being (three or four, actually -- I've read different accounts) was killed in a firefight. I can wish that that person had been taken alive, but he himself said

We love death. The U.S. loves life. That is the difference between us two.

Some do not believe he is dead: he is. This is the man who said

I'm fighting so I can die a martyr and go to heaven to meet God. Our fight now is against the Americans.

All I can say is that he got his wish. I neither lament nor rejoice; I only hope that his death helps lower the level of terrorism in the world. It will never go away -- there is no guarantee of safety and security and there never was.

What I do hope is that the combat in Afghanistan and elsewhere ends soon.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Bobert
Date: 02 May 11 - 11:25 PM

End the geo-political war thinking...

Ya' know, Rodney King understands it better than the "collective" thinking world: "Get the heck along"...

No...

Make that "Get the fuck along" if that's what it takes to make it cool...

Just do it...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: J-boy
Date: 03 May 11 - 12:00 AM

It's a strange but true fact that Osama Bin Laden was once our ally. The CIA and Osama helped us supply the mujahadeen in their holy war against the Soviets. Some of those weapons we supplied are now being used against us. Round and round it goes.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: LadyJean
Date: 03 May 11 - 12:22 AM

President Obama began as a trial lawyer. My father was also a trial lawyer as is my sister. If there's one thing a lawyer who tries cases can do it's speak and speak well! It's their stock in trade. President Obama has, undoubtably, had plenty of experience speaking off the cuff, and he can, without doubt, do it better than most people. He does not need a teleprompter.
Bin Laden's unhappy demise means Obama can scale back military operations without looking weak. That will save lives.

I composed this in the fall of 2001. This will, probably be the last time I write it.

                   OSAMA BIN LADEN
             (With Appologies to Leigh Hunt)

Osama Bin Laden, may his tribe decrease,
Came home one night from disturbing the peace.
And in his cave was amazed to see
An angel writing on a gold PC.
Wow! said Osama, looking awed,
Are you listing the names of those who love God.
Nope, said the angel, this database
lists everyone who spits in God's face.
Great! said Osama, list away.
But you'll have to list the whole U.S.A.
With their Baywatch babes and their rock and roll.
Theirs is a nation without any soul.
Said the angel, Osama take a hint
Conisder as I save and print,
The things you do in Allah's name.
Osama was never quite the same,
For on that printout, as I know you guessed,
Lo! Bin Laden's name lead all the rest.

(Though the "Reverend" Fred Phelps ran a close second.)


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: josepp
Date: 03 May 11 - 12:24 AM

////Josepp, it would be a great surprise to a number of friends of mine to be told that Coalition troops did not cross the borders of Iraq. Wonder where they were, really? This might refresh your memory.////

That's not an invasion. That was to get them out of kuwait. When they were chased back far enough, we left.

Try again.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: josepp
Date: 03 May 11 - 12:39 AM

////don't really expect either of those scenarios to occur. I just feel that the world has become a little less safe from the US, and I wonder what the US response would be if a high priority target terrorist were snatched from US soil by the SAS without the White House being notified.////

What right would the US have to complain if we kept telling the SAS that we didn't have that high priority terrorist target when they can see he's living in Washington DC six blocks from the White House?

Pakistan is untrustworthy and a completely unworthy ally. If we have to depend on them to get anything done it will never happen. They have no integrity, their own word means nothing to them. They've taken our money and spent on themselves. They have breached international relations not the US. I've had a bellyful of Pakistan and their lying, dysfunctional bullshit.

Obama got it right. If they want to be trusted, they need to be trustworthy. They are not. And from I see they never will be. If Pakinstan had known we were going in after Bin Laden you can bet he would not have been there by the time we arrived. I'd trust Saudi Arabia before I trusted ever thought of trusting Pakistan and I don't trust Saudi Arabia one wit.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 03 May 11 - 12:57 AM

I didn't see a prior link to this:

World Leader Comments on Osama

Warning: "Frank" language.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 May 11 - 01:15 AM

Webster, invasion: "an entering or being entered by an enemy military force". Perhaps you have 'invasion' and 'occupation' confused?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 11 - 02:18 AM

Kevin,
"Well, he would say that. Can you imagine him saying "It doesn't really make much difference"?"

I can imagine the Guardian saying it, but they don't.
Strong letter required?

The extremist liberal view, pity the perpetrator and blame the victim, has gone too far here.

He was just so angry we that we supported Kuwait with the blessing of every other Arab and Muslim government.
He should be allowed to live out his life in luxury in a modern city.
No.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 03 May 11 - 02:44 AM

"He was just so angry we that we supported Kuwait"

I've no idea what Bin Laden's motivation was for bombing the twin towers, apart from the statement that he made describing his motivations. In which he goes into detail about the American-Israeli alliance (and in which he makes no mention of either Kuwait or Iraq):

    "Allah knows it did not cross our minds to attack the towers but after the situation became unbearable and we witnessed the injustice and tyranny of the American-Israeli alliance against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, I thought about it. And the events that affected me directly were that of 1982 and the events that followed – when America allowed the Israelis to invade Lebanon, helped by the U.S. Sixth Fleet. As I watched the destroyed towers in Lebanon, it occurred to me punish the unjust the same way (and) to destroy towers in America so it could taste some of what we are tasting and to stop killing our children and women."
– Osama bin Laden, 2004


It's fair enough to discuss what might have been additional motivations - but as someone said below - those were the motivations he publicly stated and as such I have no reason to assume his motivations were other than those which he publicly stated.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 May 11 - 03:01 AM

No, Taconicus, ObL did not get even that process.

US forces, without proper authority, secretly entered the territory of a nation with which the US was not at war, proposed unlawfully to kidnap someone by force, and when he resisted, killed him.

Even if there had been a properly declared war, international law provides that one may not assassinate the leader of one's enemy. The presence of an Imam to carry out Islamic rituals strongly suggests that death rather than capture was at least a significant objective.


The death of ObL may turn out to be a good thing, although there are risks that he may continue to be adulated as duly executed Irish terrorists once were, and there are risks that the absence of a body to exhibit may lead to some remaining unconvinced of the death. But it is silly to pretend that it was achieved in accordance with law.

Without rule of law the only remaining authority is might - "might is right".


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 11 - 03:08 AM

Thanks Lively, but Kuwait has been offered as a justification here.

My argument stands.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 03 May 11 - 03:17 AM

Well that was one long extended eventful UK Bank Holiday all in all. I was woken by my son at 5am just as the news about OBL came through saying 'Oh my God, you have got to wake up and watch this.' Bin Laden being in Pakistan did not surprise me and walking free right under peoples noses. He was obviously an educated and calculating man so knew he would be more likely to be found in hiding rather than walking around freely, clever. I am glad he is gone but I don't feel any safer with extremists around and I don't think I ever will.

If he was shot in the head as it was told on the news I can understand that action, he was the mastermind of so many atrocities it would have been too lengthy a trial for the same outcome on top of that he would have had to been fed and watered etc. The sea burial seemed the most logical thing to do under the circumstances.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 May 11 - 04:25 AM

You're still using that term "liberal" in that Americanized sense.   Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 May 11 - 05:07 AM

""What right would the US have to complain if we kept telling the SAS that we didn't have that high priority terrorist target when they can see he's living in Washington DC six blocks from the White House?""

Disingenuous Josepp.

You know damn well that would not be the response. The next day the President would be demanding that the members of that SAS unit be handed over to the US for trial, and threatening military action if they were not.

Where is the moral justification for doing to others what you would not accept being done to you?

The end achieved was a worthwhile one, rather spoiled by the means used to achieve it.

I would be quite interested in hearing the opinion of the UN on this one, but I fear they will wimp out.

Don T


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 11 - 05:56 AM

Don, I posted Bam Ki Moon's reaction.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 May 11 - 05:58 AM

Apparently, so I've just heard on the BBC News, Obama and Hilary Clinton were watching everything on video link. Whether they filmed the actual murder, I've no idea...but I find that fact disturbing.

Also, it was said that the moment he'd been given news that Osama bin Laden was dead, he immediately went out to tell the world.

Yet, wasn't the news already out there on the internet, prior to President Obama telling everyone?


I have such a bad feeling about all of this. Such a gut-churning, gut-wrenching feeling..and watching so many people whooping it up in New York made that feeling even worse.   It was almost as if I could sense, in other parts of the world, others watching those very same scenes, whilst in their heads and their hearts declaring the word 'JIHAD!' as never before...

I just hope to Allah that I am wrong.

But with this murder the world becomes an even more dangerous place.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Wesley S
Date: 03 May 11 - 07:12 AM

It's also being reported that when the Seals took Osamas body away that they also removed his computer and hard drive. That should be interesting.

So what to the 9/11 "inside job" cultists have to say about all of this?

By the way - isn't it time to remove the question marks from the title of this thread?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 May 11 - 07:46 AM

It seems clearer this morning that the Presidential order was "Shoot to kill!" for better or worse. I hope the Administration doesn't release the video and the still photography for a few decades, with the exception of one of the funeral ceremony.

Those who publicly celebrated Bin Laden's execution should realize (but probably won't) that videos of their "joy" will be spread around the world and be used to recruit more suicide bombers.

A "day (or year) in court" for Bin Laden instead of execution would have endangered thousands more.

Maybe this "immoral choice" was the better call.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 May 11 - 07:58 AM

Janie, I forgot to say earlier on...that link of yours, yes, very thought provoking indeed. I've often wondered about so many deeply intelligent folks who decide to cross that fatal line into destruction rather than salvation.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 May 11 - 10:21 AM

Oh, I'm not saying he isn't dead (I've started calling him Been Laden), just that I wish we'd seen the body before they buried it at sea.
There should be another word for that, to me "burial" implies in the ground. Maybe me cause in French it's "enterrer" - put into the earth - but still.
I have to say that it's the first time I was glad somebody was dead, and I was properly ashamed of myself for that feeling. Now I've rationalized it into being happy for Obama. Bet he still doesn't say Been Laden as often as Bush said 9/11 when campaigning for reelection!

(Footnote: it wasn't Al Quaeda who killed my dad in 1983, it was Hezbollah, financed by Iran - specifically Ayatollah-following Syrian-trained Lebanese moslems. But I'm still not sorry, not even that we went into another country to get him, since we'd warned that other country we would.)


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 May 11 - 10:45 AM

US forces, without proper authority, secretly entered the territory of a nation with which the US was not at war, proposed unlawfully to kidnap someone by force, and when he resisted, killed him. 9

Such as the Israeli kidnapping of Adolf Eichmann?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: josepp
Date: 03 May 11 - 10:48 AM

Here's the Meriam-Webster definition verbatim. There was no invasion of Iraq in 1991. There was no conquest of plunder. Accept it.

Main Entry:in£va£sion
Pronunciation:in-*v*-zh*n
Function:noun
Etymology:Middle English invasioune, from Anglo-French invasion, from Late Latin invasion-, invasio, from Latin invadere to invade
Date:15th century

1 : an act of invading; especially   : incursion of an army for conquest or plunder
2 : the incoming or spread of something usually hurtful


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: josepp
Date: 03 May 11 - 11:06 AM

/////""What right would the US have to complain if we kept telling the SAS that we didn't have that high priority terrorist target when they can see he's living in Washington DC six blocks from the White House?""

Disingenuous Josepp.

You know damn well that would not be the response. The next day the President would be demanding that the members of that SAS unit be handed over to the US for trial, and threatening military action if they were not./////

No, I do not know that damn well and neither do you. And even if the US did that, Pakistan is in no position to so who cares?

"You came into our country illegally and took Bin Laden!"

"Well, you swore you didn't have him after we gave you billions of dollars in aid as an ally."

Now what does Pakistan say? No, Pakistan is going to be very quiet. Look at it this way, one day your car is missing and you ask your neighbor if he saw anything. He says no. Then one day, he opens his garage door and you could SWEAR that's your missing car in there! You go to the cops who tell you, "We need more than that. You have to prove it's your car." So you open the guy's garage while he's at work and it's definitely yours. Now who are the cops going to arrest? You for breaking into his garage or him for grand theft auto?

////Where is the moral justification for doing to others what you would not accept being done to you?/////

You want deeply religious president, Don? I've had enough of those. I want a practical one and what Obama did was practical. I'd be furious with a president who refused to act on religious grounds.

////The end achieved was a worthwhile one, rather spoiled by the means used to achieve it.////

And you know damn well you'd have done exactly the same thing if you were in Obama's shoes. You know if you ask permission, Bin Laden will be spirited away and then Pakistan will deny he was ever there. By doing it this way, Pakistan is exposed for the lying, two-faced bastards they are. They're the ones with explaining to do. As far as I am concerned Obama was perfectly justified.

/////I would be quite interested in hearing the opinion of the UN on this one, but I fear they will wimp out.////

Anyone heere who thinks Obama was wrong to do it this way, tell me what you would have done if you were in his place. I know this is going to be GOOD.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Donuel
Date: 03 May 11 - 11:07 AM

Justice being served is a stretch but just revenge or vengeful justice is closer to the mark


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Donuel
Date: 03 May 11 - 11:13 AM

"Why didn't Pakistan help us find bin Laden, after all, we have given them 18 billion dollars since 2001 to help us find him?"


isn't it great when they answer their own question with their own question ?




What have you learned about Usama since the raid?

I learned he slept on a water bed with an unfinished pine board frame. He kept a jar of Vasoline by the bed. He had the same carpet I have. He seemed to not have a choice about where to live. The secret police probably kept him there as an ace in the hole for US aid or ransom, whichever was greater.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 May 11 - 11:19 AM

Josepp, you are wrong. The Coalition forces conquered Saddam in 1991. He lost - that is what conquer means. They choose not to occupy. Accept it.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 May 11 - 11:29 AM

How's THIS for surreal. Saturday was to have been the Race Against Racism, for which I had joined the Islamic Society's team to get to know and learn about THEIR culture. They welcomed me warmly to the team... I worked on getting sponsors.... but the Race got postponed to June, due to flooding at the venue.

Then we were away from TV/papers for a few days, and only learned of the purported hit on Bin Laden, when we were driving yesterday to an event. We learned it accidentally via cell from the contact we'd called for parking info-- she said that the venue had been closed and evacuated the night before due to an Islamic bomb threat because of Bin Laden! She wasn't sure we could even get into the city it was to be held in! And there WE were, worrying that the GPS might or might not work to find their new convention center!

It was an anti-racism event about the Underground Railroad, and on the way home-- as I reflected on the presentation, the consultation I picked up, and the issues of the people we'd just met-- all I could think about was the new friend I'd made for that Race, at the Islamic Society... and the awareness that I know NOTHING about how his life has changed since the weekend, but that it must have! And that it's on me to let him know that he is in my thoughts!

Bin Laden, BTW? We'll never "really" know, any more than we can ever be sure what really happened in Dallas. Too many layers of story-spinning, by real perfessionals. I'm keeping MY eye on the ball in MY court-- new Islamic friends to (hopefully) continue to get to know.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 May 11 - 12:53 PM

There was no invasion of Iraq in 1991

Not only is he WRONG, Art, he'a apparently delusional.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 May 11 - 01:23 PM

Article: On Bin Laden's Death


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 May 11 - 01:27 PM

Wesley, That clip shows the Boers lined up and shot firing squad style after being captured and secured.

I think it was more like this.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 May 11 - 01:37 PM

LH-

Thoughtful point of view.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: gnu
Date: 03 May 11 - 01:40 PM

Pretty much everyone has welcomed it including Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan (Karzai has also told NATO it must stop bombing.), Pakistan... only bunch I have heard of so far that haven't is Hamas.

NHK Japan...

US officials say Osama bin Laden was buried at sea after his death was confirmed by DNA testing.

Speaking to reporters on Monday, officials from the Defense Department and the CIA revealed the multiple methods used to identify the body of the Al Qaeda leader.

They said bin Laden was identified by a woman believed to be his wife, and by CIA experts who compared his face and body to known pictures of bin Laden.

The officials also said that a DNA test using samples collected from bin Laden's family members confirmed the identity.

A senior government official said that it was difficult to find a country willing to accept the remains and bury them within 24 hours in accordance with Islamic practice.

The official said that the corpse was lowered into the Arabian Sea from a US aircraft carrier on Monday.

The US government says there has been no evidence showing that the Pakistani government knew bin Laden was hiding in a compound near Islamabad.

The US government hopes to collect information about senior members of Al Qaeda by examining items, including computers, confiscated from the hideout.

Tuesday, May 03, 2011 08:32 +0900 (JST)


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: josepp
Date: 03 May 11 - 01:53 PM

////Josepp, you are wrong. The Coalition forces conquered Saddam in 1991. He lost - that is what conquer means. They choose not to occupy. Accept it.////

Oh, really? They conquered Saddam in 1991? Then who was running Iraq from 1992 until the Invasion?

How did George Bush manage to convince the American public and apparently much of the world that Saddam, conquered since 1991, had somehow managed to stockpile over 25,000 liters of anthrax ("enough doses to kill several million people"), over 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin ("enough to subject millions of people to death by respiratory failure"), approximately "500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent" along with "upwards of 30,000 munitions capable of delivering chemical agents"? Not to mention trying to get 500 tons of yellowcake out of Niger! That's pretty good for a conquered leader.

It's only because he was not conquered that Bush foisted that lie off on the world and got away with it.

The dirty ragged man they pulled out of spider hole in December of 2003? THAT was a conquered leader. Could the US have conquered him in 1991 if they wanted to? Yes, of course. The US chose not to and therefore there was no invasion. Iraqi troops were chased out of Kuwait and it was left at that.

Now, come on, be reasonable.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: josepp
Date: 03 May 11 - 02:03 PM

////I'm keeping MY eye on the ball in MY court-- new Islamic friends to (hopefully) continue to get to know.////

There's an eatery down the street from me run by two Arab brothers, both Muslims. I was talking to the younger brother one night and he said that Jews and Muslims are cousins and the fighting would stop if only people on both sides would quit stirring things up.

"Osama bin Laden?" he said, "I would gladly kill him myself if I knew where he was."

Unfortunately, the press only plays up on the crazy Muslims in America rather than ones like my friends down the street.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 May 11 - 02:08 PM

How did George Bush manage to convince the American public

Easy. He lied.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: josepp
Date: 03 May 11 - 02:14 PM

Well, of course, he lied. I'm asking how he could have convinced anyone of the lie if Saddam had been conquered 1991?

This isn't rocket science, folks. Those who say the US invaded Iraq in 1991 are wrong. Just admit it--you're wrong. The US's actions in 1991 simply don't meet the definition of an invasion.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 May 11 - 02:17 PM

The US's actions in 1991 simply don't meet the definition of an invasion.

Sez you. Rave on.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Amos
Date: 03 May 11 - 02:40 PM

Obviously, you guys, there is a difference between invading someone's territory, and overthrowing their government and taking control of their capitol. When we drove Saddam out of Kuwait we conquered him, invaded part of his territory, whupped his army, and left.


We invaded him without overthrowing him.

Second time, we overthrew him.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,roderick warner
Date: 03 May 11 - 02:49 PM

Osama? One scumbag less...


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: josepp
Date: 03 May 11 - 02:55 PM

////Obviously, you guys, there is a difference between invading someone's territory, and overthrowing their government and taking control of their capitol. When we drove Saddam out of Kuwait we conquered him, invaded part of his territory, whupped his army, and left.////

No, you didn't read the verbatim definition of invasion I posted from Meriam-Websters. Breaching the borders is an incursion. An invasion is an incursion for purposes or plunder or conquering. The US is guilty only of an incursion. The US did not invade Iraq in 1991. The US invaded Iraq in 2003.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: gnu
Date: 03 May 11 - 03:15 PM

CP is reporting "Pakistan slams US". Others are reporting Pakistan's foreign minister as approving in press conference. ???


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 11 - 03:26 PM

So has US now "invaded" Pakistan?
Of course not.
It carried out a limited operation on Pakistani territory and withdrew, as with Gulf war 1 and the attempt to rescue hostages in Iran a few years earlier.
Not invasions.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 May 11 - 03:27 PM

Now the White House is releasing information, that Osama wasn't armed, when he was shot dead....hmm..now before all the doily-headed, numb-skulls, start bitching of how unfair that was, consider that neither was anyone in the Trade Towers, either....or the commuters in train stations, or most of the people that he, and his cohorts murdered either.
Personally, I think the SEALS were on a mission to 'neutralize', him and gather intelligence, and that's what they did...FINALLY!
I do commend the whole operation, and Obama's decision to do it....in fact, I hope they get the rest of the scum-suckers, from the intelligence they gathered, Pakistan straightens up, and then the President gets onto cleaning up the economy, and the corruption that caused all of it!....and its not open for a stupid 'debate'!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 11 - 03:30 PM

Reuters) - U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon on Monday hailed Osama bin Laden's death as a key turning point in the world's struggle against terrorism.

"The death of Osama bin Laden, announced by President (Barack) Obama last night, is a watershed moment in our common global fight against terrorism," Ban told reporters.

U.S. officials said late on Sunday that bin Laden had been killed in a U.S. assault on his Pakistani compound on Monday, then quickly buried at sea.

"The crimes of al Qaeda touched most continents, bringing tragedy and loss of life to thousands of men, women and children," Ban said.

"This is a day to remember the victims and families of victims here in the United States and everywhere in the world," he added.

The written version of Ban's reaction included several remarks that were not included in the statement he made to reporters on camera. The additional comments made clear that Ban felt the U.S. targeting of bin Laden was just.

"Personally, I am very much relieved by the news that justice has been done to such a mastermind of international terrorism," Ban said in the emailed text of his statement.

"I would like to commend the work and the determined and principled commitment of many people in the world who have been struggling to eradicate international terrorism," he added.

(Reporting by Louis Charbonneau; Editing by Paul Simao)


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 May 11 - 03:55 PM

GfS-

I think myself a peaceful person but I agree with you that shooting Bib Laden, armed or not, was the better call than taking him prisoner. It's not the morally correct call but it's politically efficient.

Now maybe Obama can focus on getting our troops our of Iraq and Afghanistan, not to mention creating more jobs for the unemployed.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 May 11 - 03:55 PM

In 1991, Iraq invaded Kuwait with the aim of appropriating and taking control of their oil resources. The United States, acting in Kuwait's behalf, repelled the Iraqi invader and drove them out and back into their own country. The United States "invaded" Iraq only in a very loose sense of the word "invade."

International Law recognizes "the Right of Hot Pursuit." This permits a nation or law enforcement agency to pursue wrong-doers, whether they are private criminals (such as, say, pirates) or the retreating armed forces of a hostile country across national borders without it being construed as an "invasion" as such.

Discovering the location of a wanted international criminal and entering another country to get him falls under the "hot pursuit" clause of International Law, and although the host country may bellow like a goosed moose, it does not constitute an "invasion," provided the pursuers withdraw once the criminal is dealt with. Especially if there is some suspicion that the country may actually be sheltering the criminal and denying it, while claiming to cooperate.

"It's in the book!"
             —Doodles Weaver

The actual invasion of Iraq, declared by the Bush Administration in response (according to Bush) to the 9/11 attack and Iraq's alleged stockpiling of weapons of mass destruction (which turned out not to exist), was an invasion. But obviously that did not occur until some time after September 11, 2001

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 May 11 - 04:05 PM

/// josepp

I'm sure you know what Kendall meant. You constant prattling on about who invaded whom is worse than useless. Fact is Osama DID complain about "invasion" of his holy lands. "Invasion" was his choice of words Whether he meant, Arabia, or all of the Middle East or every Arab land was not made clear. Why don't you go argue with him?

By the way. I'd tell you just how I thought about how you were acting. But if I said you were acting like and asshole you would probably tell me that "Websters" defines you as dickhead.   

Also, I liked the comments about the neighbors. I like the Muslims I have met. I agree with your point of view on that issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 May 11 - 04:07 PM

Don-Babes, I think you hit it on the head!!!

Oh, and as an addendum to my last post, I think they should release the photos, with OBL pecker cut off, and stuffed in his mouth, and his body wrapped in pig shit. Maybe that would send a message to any other would be radical Muslim terrorists!!!

...Respectfully,

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 May 11 - 04:12 PM

Oh, and with a caption for the photo, "This awaits ALL Muslim terrorists who we capture, or kill in action!!"

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Bobert
Date: 03 May 11 - 05:05 PM

I will be the first to admit that I have not had time to follow the story as close as I'd like but I had to drive into town and had NPR on and NPR reported that bin Laden was unarmed when he was shot...

Anyone have the facts???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Bill D
Date: 03 May 11 - 05:11 PM

GfS... you sure have some 'interesting' suggestions ...


..that would ASSURE new terrorist recruits and jihads for years to come. Why don't you just threaten to bomb Mecca? Or something equally asinine...


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 May 11 - 05:11 PM

Invasion is a word, not a verdict regarding whether it is justified or not. It means one country's military forces enter into another country without the consent of the invaded country. It may be followed by an occupation or by a withdrawal or retreat.

For example, France was invaded in 1949, and Germany was invaded in 1945.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 May 11 - 05:13 PM

The word I heard was that bin Laden was found in an upstairs room. There was a woman with him (not necessarily "in flagrante delicto"). He was told to surrender and come quietly. He grabbed the woman to use her as a shield and was reaching for a weapon when the raiders opened fire, trying carefully to avoid wounding the woman and hitting him twice in the head.

That was the report that I heard. Your mileage may vary.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 11 - 05:27 PM

McG. I think you meant that France was invaded in 1939.
What about the Bruneval raid 1942?
Was that an invasion of France too?
Dieppe 1942?
St. Nazaire 1942?
No.
They were raids, not to be compared with invasions like that of 1939 and 1944.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 May 11 - 05:28 PM

It is now officially admitted that ObL was unarmed.

This is the day civilisation ended.

There is now no rule of law or safety of life.

What has been established is that the US will kill who it likes, where it likes, when it likes, without trial and without any pretext of self defence.

Welcome to the wild West.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Bobert
Date: 03 May 11 - 05:31 PM

Hmmmmm???

So bib Laden was wrestling with a woman and trying to retrieve a weapon at the same time???

Something fishy here...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 May 11 - 05:36 PM

Nope. His wife trued to rush the US soldiers and was shot but not fatally.

ObL was double-tapped, once in the head and once in the chest.

Come in peace (?) , shoot to kill.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: andrew e
Date: 03 May 11 - 05:57 PM

"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr.

None of us know the "truth". Only what we're told, which can change
from day to day.

http://www.kingofhits.co.uk/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=65&func=view&catid=2&id=70152


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 May 11 - 06:35 PM

Don-

"The word I heard was that bin Laden was found in an upstairs room. There was a woman with him (not necessarily "in flagrante delicto"). He was told to surrender and come quietly. He grabbed the woman to use her as a shield and was reaching for a weapon when the raiders opened fire, trying carefully to avoid wounding the woman and hitting him twice in the head."

That was one of the initial reports but now the story is that the woman was his wife and she was wounded in the foot when she tried to rush to Seals. Then they shot the unarmed Bin Laden twice in the head. His wife survived.

GfS-

You're on your own special trip now. Have fun while it lasts.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: bobad
Date: 03 May 11 - 06:49 PM

The touchy-feely platitudes and accusations of lawlessness apply equally to the terrorists, I presume.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 May 11 - 07:30 PM

There seems to be someone here who is all a-weep over the fact that bin Laden was shot while unarmed (although I heard--within the past hour--that he was going for a weapon, but didn't make it), and accusing those who shot him of "Wild West"ing it.

Not an ounce of sympathy for the 3,000+ people who were killed, and their families, when the World Trade Center was attacked.

Strange sense of values. Sounds like the kind of person who would sympathize with a rapist and blame his victim for provoking the attack.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Bobert
Date: 03 May 11 - 07:50 PM

It ain't about that, Don... Bin Laden got off too easy... There isn't any report that I know of that says bin Laden was going for a weapon so given what he did (9/11 et al) I think a life time of being locked up in a 8 X 12 cell with one very horny, ugly and brutal murderer would have been fine with me...

He got off light...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: gnu
Date: 03 May 11 - 08:22 PM

Well... if they could have taken him alive they would have. The trial would have been swift as he is on video tape saying he did the crime.

As for him spending time in prison being Bubba's bitch, that don't happen nor should it. It just don't happen.

As for all the CSI shit, I don't understand it. What supposedly happened supposedly happened. Now it will be to step up to the plate time for NATO... stop the bombing and the killing and work with "the enemy" or continue to be an enemy of the enemy who will, in turn, be an enemy... ad infinitum.

There is an opportunity to move forward... or further backward... and most nations, especially Arab nations, have expressed same.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 May 11 - 10:09 PM

Well, whatever the truth of the matter is, Osama bin Laden is with his friends now.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 May 11 - 10:27 PM

First of all, how short Americans memory serves them. Does anyone here remember the initial reports of Jessica Lynch??...and the truth that came out after?????
Second, This punk, Osama got young, naive religious jerks to blow up innocent people(including themselves), while he hid away and hid behind women..at least his own according to those same 'reports'...nonetheless, he declared war on America, and killed plenty of us...so, if that's his deal, why all the ballyhoo about how or when or the circumstances of his demise? What?? You want to 'rehabilitate' him?? This pig IS one of the corporate fat cats, who you regularly hate on this forum. Why all this bleeding heart sympathy, for this mass murderer??. Next, you'll be weeping for Charles Manson!...and this pig was WAY worse!
That being said, I am against murder, of virtually any sort..so, something had to stop him! (ever consider that?)

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: bobad
Date: 03 May 11 - 10:36 PM

Prof. Pervez Hoodbhoy on how the Pakistan Army gave protection to Osama Bin Laden, treating him as the Golden Goose that helped them extract more and more from the Americans.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/160658/the-curious-case-of-osama-bin-laden/


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 May 11 - 11:11 PM

As I said before, I'm sorry he's dead. I'm sorry when anyone dies. I am not, however, weeping over him anymore than I weep over the deaths of Adolph Hitler, Che Guevara, Elizabeth Bathory, Idi Amin, Saddam Hussein, Benito Mussolini, Tsar Ivan III, Pope Alexander VI, Boone Helm, Clay Allison, John Henry Holliday, Colonel Patrick Edward Connor, George Custer, Irma Ida Ilse Grese, Ilse Koch, Stalin or any others of that sort.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 May 11 - 11:43 PM

Rapparee: "As I said before, I'm sorry he's dead. I'm sorry when anyone dies. I am not, however, weeping over him anymore than I weep over the deaths of Adolph Hitler, Che Guevara, Elizabeth Bathory, Idi Amin, Saddam Hussein, Benito Mussolini, Tsar Ivan III, Pope Alexander VI, Boone Helm, Clay Allison, John Henry Holliday, Colonel Patrick Edward Connor, George Custer, Irma Ida Ilse Grese, Ilse Koch, Stalin or any others of that sort."

Any less?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 May 11 - 11:57 PM

As far as his being unarmed goes, that seems irrelevant to me. This operation was not a sheot'em up western; this was meant to take him out if he resisted in any way. It is most likely if he had held up his arms and fallen to his knees he would be alive.

Like Saddam- he was taken alive because he came meekly.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Clint Westwood
Date: 04 May 11 - 12:03 AM

conspiracy theory 1: shoot to kill to silence him to avoid capture and potentially embarrassing implicating trial disclosures..

conspiracy theory 2: killed years ago, body kept in deep freeze
to be thawed at an opportunistic political moment..

conspiracy theory 3: knew where he was all the time, CIA funded and built
compound to keep him safe from prying eyes until he was no longer a viable asset..

conspiracy theory 4: Genetic experiment gone wrong, Alien tissue samples fused with his body producing uncontrollable
mutant super villain capable of wiping out all life on planet
with one blast of evil x ray mind vision..

conspiracy theory 5: oops.. it's the wrong bloke, they aint got him after all...


etc etc etc etc etc...


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: josepp
Date: 04 May 11 - 12:09 AM

////I'm sure you know what Kendall meant. You constant prattling on about who invaded whom is worse than useless.////


They were pratlling more than anybody--shut up, man!

////Fact is Osama DID complain about "invasion" of his holy lands.////

I don't give a fuck what he waws complain about. He's dead so fuck him.

////By the way. I'd tell you just how I thought about how you were acting. But if I said you were acting like and asshole you would probably tell me that "Websters" defines you as dickhead.///

That's how I'd define you.   

///Also, I liked the comments about the neighbors. I like the Muslims I have met. I agree with your point of view on that issue.///

Whoopee.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: josepp
Date: 04 May 11 - 12:11 AM

///Fact is Osama DID complain about "invasion" of his holy lands. "Invasion" was his choice of words Whether he meant, Arabia, or all of the Middle East or every Arab land was not made clear. Why don't you go argue with him?///

Whose prattling about invasion now? Fuckin asshole.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: J-boy
Date: 04 May 11 - 12:53 AM

Some fuckwit in my hometown of Portland,Maine spray painted "Obama today. Islam tomorow"(sic) on the side of our local muslim community center. I wish I could say it was surprising.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 11 - 01:09 AM

Did "civilization end" in 1941 when there was a British attempt to kill Rommel?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 May 11 - 01:13 AM

Moral of the story: Declare war, kill people, and you might be next. Maybe he should have taken up folk music!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: J-boy
Date: 04 May 11 - 01:20 AM

Bin Laden did look a bit like a folkie. What with that beard and all...


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: michaelr
Date: 04 May 11 - 01:25 AM

Nah, too skinny.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 May 11 - 01:39 AM

Give up on polite dialogue, eh Josepp?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 May 11 - 02:16 AM

In case it escapes you Keith, there was a declared war in progress then.

It may be a "good thing" that ObL is dead, although there are possible adverse consequences, but the manner of his killing was improper.

If he was not an enemy soldier he was entitled to due process as much as anyone else. Outlawry vanished from civilised jurisprudence centuries ago. I hope that even the USA no longer has a category of "Wanted, dead or alive". There was no trial. There was no lawful sentence of death.

If he was an enemy soldier, then he was entitled to be treated as per convention. He wasn't.

If he was an enemy leader then international law proscribed assassination.

The US had no lawful power of arrest - or military action in what was neither within their jurisdiction nor an enemy territory.


This was simply the power of the gun.   The outcome may turn out to be advantageous, but that does not make it proper.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 May 11 - 02:26 AM

Richard Bridge to Nowhere: "This was simply the power of the gun."

Hey, he was the one who ordered CIVILIAN planes to kill innocent people in the WTC..according to the Geneva Convention, while declaring war on us, right???..and you're bitching because he wasn't wearing a uniform????

OK, now that you read this post, you can replace your head up your ass!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 11 - 03:59 AM

"In case it escapes you Keith, there was a declared war in progress then."

Of course!
Sorry I missed that obvious distinction.

Had US been at war with Al Qaeda, it would be quite legal to kill any fighter unless they offered to surrender.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 04 May 11 - 04:17 AM

I can believe that some of the people in that neighbourhood truly might have been unaware of him living locally. It is quite possible. There have been many cases in the UK of murderers and abducters for example living in quiet residental areas. Neighbours have been shocked and surprised because it was claimed that the person was so quiet, easy going and unassuming so I can go along with that.

A short while ago quite recently I recall a news report saying that a recording from Bin Laden the first in a long while had been broadcast. It seems a bit of a coincidence now this has happened,   seems really fishy to me, could it be the broadcast was fake? With all the inconsistencies about the events it does make you wonder.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Silas
Date: 04 May 11 - 04:40 AM

I just love you American guys.
Not only do you illegally enter a foreign country armed to the teeth, you break into a private residence, murder unarmed people in cold blood, injure and cause grievous bodily harm to others, remove a body and 'bury' it without due process, AND THEN have the gall to say that the use of torture on illegally held prisoners who have never been charged with any crime was justified as it allowed you to do all this.
Priceless.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Lox
Date: 04 May 11 - 05:30 AM

"As far as his being unarmed goes, that seems irrelevant to me. This operation was not a sheot'em up western; this was meant to take him out if he resisted in any way. It is most likely if he had held up his arms and fallen to his knees he would be alive."

How about if you are unarmed and cowering behind your wife?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Lox
Date: 04 May 11 - 05:52 AM

Well the answer is that you and your wife both get shot.

Its as if the US Government are deliberately thinking of ridiculous lies just make sure we understand that they couldn't give a shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 May 11 - 06:59 AM

Er - not only that Keith. The US in this case were not acting on enemy held territory.

Please note that I am not saying that the death of ObL was necessarily a bad thing - we will have to wait and see. The manner of its doing was IMHO unlawful.



Fugitive from Sanity: ObL may have committed crimes. Was he lawfully taken tried and sentenced? No. Unless rule of law prevails there is only the power of the gun.

Generally:

There are statements circulating (and parts of them may be true) that there had been offers to surrender ObL for an unbiassed trial in an unbiassed jurisdiction - but that the USA refused to consider them. That may or may not be accurate, but it is disturbingly similar to the refusal of the USA to recognise the jurisdiction of other countries on war crimes. I cannot see how ObL could have got a fair trial in the USA - indeed with the number of gun nutters there it would have been difficult to see how he could have survived in the USA until trial.

Proper trial is what separates criminal process from vigilantism. While I do not claim to be a master of US procedural rules it seems to me plausible that any trial of ObL in the US would have fallen foul of the "fruit of the poisonous tree" doctrine.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: bobad
Date: 04 May 11 - 07:24 AM

It's no surprise that someone from the legal profession is a proponent of a, most likely, quite lengthy and very expensive trial....did I mention expensive....ka ching!


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 11 - 07:46 AM

"Er - not only that Keith. The US in this case were not acting on enemy held territory"

No, the terrirory of an ally who have no objections, and who have themselves lost thousands to Al Qaeda.

No one is objecting except Hamas and the Mudcat left-libs.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 04 May 11 - 08:48 AM

I'm a lib. Don't link me with the views in question.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 May 11 - 09:10 AM

I do hope that the Obama Administration resists the call by some to release photos of the deceased Bin Laden, with the exception of the funeral service. Such a release would serve no other purpose than to further inflame his supporters around the world to take some kind of action, and recruit more to their cause. That should be an easy call but for some reason some Republicans want to see the proof; maybe they can have a private viewing of the photos after confiscating their cell-phones.

Such photos might be released after 50 years or so, after passions simmer down.

I also hope that the members of the Navy Seal Team are never identified for their personal safety. Seals should be protected.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 04 May 11 - 09:18 AM

Charley, Pentagon policy is that the names of special operations people are never divulged.

It doesn't matter whether they release the photos or not. Fakes are already circulating on the Net, and anybody that eager to kill will take his or her cue from one of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Taconicus
Date: 04 May 11 - 09:55 AM

Even if there had been a properly declared war, international law provides that one may not assassinate the leader of one's enemy. - Richard. Bridge

There is no such international law. You're speaking off the top of your head with obviously no knowledge of what you're talking about.

"Osama Bin Laden ... was an appropriate military target. As the titular and spiritual head of al-Qaida, he was the functional equivalent of a head of state or commander in chief of a terrorist army. From the beginning of recorded history, killing the king was the legitimate object of military action. The very phrase 'check mate' means 'the king is dead,' signifying the successful end of the battle." - Alan Dershowitz, Constitutional law scholar, renowned criminal and civil liberties attorney

http://www.hudson-ny.org/2093/targeted-killing-vindicated


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 11 - 09:59 AM

"No one is objecting except Hamas and the Mudcat left-libs. "
"ISLAMABAD (AP) — Pakistan says it is deeply concerned over what it said was an "unauthorized" American raid that killed Osama bin Laden.
The government statement says the raid should not serve as a precedent for future U.S. actions there and called the raid an "unauthorized unilateral action."
If the world is to have a self-appointed military pliceman it should not be a state that uses torture, imprisonment without trial, clandestine international terrorism, chemical warfare and the targeting of civilians (for which they have re-invented the English language - collateral damage).
America is a terrorist state, openly using terrorist tactics in its own political and economic interests and is every bit a danger to world eace as any other terrorist state.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Silas
Date: 04 May 11 - 10:04 AM

Agree 100% Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Silas
Date: 04 May 11 - 10:17 AM

"The very phrase 'check mate' means 'the king is dead,' signifying the successful end of the battle."

Not quite sure where this little piece of disinformation came from, but killing the King rarely meant the successful end of a battle.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 11 - 10:27 AM

"the king is dead" - is right Silas - from the Persian.
However, I doubt very much if seeing off Bin Laden, however welcome that may be, has brought about the end of this particular holy war - just another erratic prod into the hornet's net.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Donuel
Date: 04 May 11 - 10:34 AM

My earlier remarks here regarding the bin Laden strategy to help bankrupt America as he did with the former Soviet Union, was beautifully expanded by Rachel Maddow last night.

The book "the three trillion dollar war" was metioned along with the writings of money man bin Laden that focused entirely on how much money his efforts were costing America.

Our off budget spending on the wars is much higher than the official totals of 1.4 trillion dollars. It is true that the focus of bin Laden was always money. His book the 10 trickey verses in the Koran was merely a means to an end which was the financial defeat of America.

By the way the picture we are not supposed to see clearly show 2 holes an inch or more above his left eye (not in the eye itself) and the right rear side of his head blown out. His eyes are nearly closed but crossed. There are many more gory pictures that came out of the Bosnia Muslim massacres.
I did not see the alledged chest wound.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Silas
Date: 04 May 11 - 10:37 AM

I know it means the king is dead, that was not my point.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 04 May 11 - 11:19 AM

Bin Laden was not a king or a head of state.

He was a criminal considered armed and dangerous.

Unless he was stark naked when shot, the SEALs had every reason to suspect he could be wearing a suicide belt. Inside a fortified enemy compound with only one way out, faced with the most wanted fugitive on earth and an unknown number of his bodyguards, the only way to prevent shooting would have been for everybody but the SEALs to throw up their hands in surrender. Everybody.

Under the actual circumstances, it would have taken superhuman and possibly suicidal restraint not to shoot him. The fact that so few shots were fired, and that the U.S. government frankly admits Bin Laden wasn't holding a weapon (and is now debating whether the release of photos would be offensive) shows how America actually tries to operate.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Silas
Date: 04 May 11 - 11:21 AM

Bollocks


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 11 - 11:33 AM

Jim, are you being naive or disingenuous?
"Deep concern" is just about as mild a rebuke as you can get!
Imagine the outrage and breaking of relations had US pulled such a stunt in any other country on earth!
Even the closest of allies such as Britain or Israel.

Al Qaeda and the Pakistan government are sworn enemies.
Thousands of Pakistanis have been killed and they are greatful for anything US does against them.
It is just that their security and intelligence services are heavily infiltrated, and America is not popular.

They express concern over the predator strikes too, but never demand that they stop.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Donuel
Date: 04 May 11 - 11:38 AM

He was a rich kid since the age of 10 when he got his first 80 million dollars. He was the money man. He did the photo ops.
Any actual fighting he may have done was brief and all for show.
His money gave him virtual Royal status.

The people who are focused only upon mass murder of the infidel did the real planning. They may have nuclear capabilities at this time and pose a real and present danger.
Bin Laden was about the financial destruction of America. His buddies are even crazier and may opt for nuclear options despite the futility and the diminished need for their cause among many Arab nations in revolution against dictator regiemes.

I hope sanity prevails.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Silas
Date: 04 May 11 - 11:43 AM

I have little hope of sanity prevailing when the Whitehouse is run by lunatics.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 May 11 - 11:59 AM

He was a rich kid since the age of 10 when he got his first 80 million dollars. He was the money man.

Kinda like the Koch Brothers, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 04 May 11 - 12:44 PM

Ten Myths about Osama Bin Laden see : 2. the money


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 May 11 - 12:49 PM

Oh Tacky...

(you don't mind if I call you that do you?)


Try some academic reading on the subject.

http://mises.org/misesreview_detail.aspx?control=373


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Donuel
Date: 04 May 11 - 01:53 PM

the Guardian link has less detail and substantiated knowledge than my informal remarks.


Fact: Osama bin Laden inherited 80 million at age ten.
Money continued to define his identity and importence until he became more serious in has late twenties when being a person of faith gave him new advantages.

His father was a multi billionaire building contrator for many of the largest projects is SA.

Split 20 billion dollars 50 ways and it is still a good piece of cash.

GHW Bush was partners with Osamma's brother in the part ownership of Carlyle Group Inc.

Members of the bin Laden family had one of the few flights out of Dulles on 9-12-2001.

I am unaware of any of Ossama's assets being siezed by anyone including his family.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 11 - 03:40 PM

"Jim, are you being naive or disingenuous?"
You said that nobody complained except yatta-yatta - you got it wrong - Pakistan complained, just as Britain would have complained had they gone storming up Wandsworth High Street and mown down a couple of people in The Spead Eagle.
You have no right to claim immunity on their behalf - they have committed an act of aggression against a friendly nation - who the **** are you to say how offended they are?
America does not respect national boundaries when it suits them not to do so.
They routinely use torture and arrest without trial; for the former they ship illegally detained 'suspects' to countries that are not too fussy about that sort of thing; (they are flown though our local airport regularly); for the latter, they have constructed concentration camps where similar illegally detained 'suspects' are held in inhuman conditions (60 odd of them at the last count) for indefinite periods with no access to friends, family or legal assistance.
The US is a terrorist state using every terrorist method they believe themselves able to get away with.
As far as I am concerned, the only things distinguishing them from other terrorist states is their wealth, influence and their nuclear capability.
It is this gung-ho behaviour which has endangered the world and put a hugh question mark over all our futures - every bomb that went off in London following the phony search for WMDs is down to Pres. Dubya and his poodle Blair.
I have to say, it comes as no surprise to me whatever that you have taken the Quisling line of apologising for their behaviour - runs in the blood apparently.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: gnu
Date: 04 May 11 - 04:21 PM

I read that the Pakistan foreign minister issued a staement saying Pakistan welcomed the action. It was on NHK Japan this AM. Can't find it now.

In any case, WTF is the problem? Pakistan couldn't find the fucker living next to a top military installation and the USA did and took the fucker out. Job done. And Pakistan didn't even have to pay for the bullets. The cheap fuckers should send a cheque to Obama for supplying the bullets on accounta they didn't spend any of Obama's money looking for the piece of shit in the first place.

Death to America? No. Not fuckin likely. Ten years or a thousand ain't gonna butter the biscuit. The USA is here to stay. I don't agree with what they do a lot of the time but only a stunned as me arse idiot fucks with them. Pakistan pissing them off is idiotic and doesn't help lead to peace in any form.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: olddude
Date: 04 May 11 - 04:41 PM

It is what it is, done and over with. Any country US included had the right and indeed already had an agreement in place. Does it change anything no .. do I care .. not really he was a monster, however, I will not celebrate any death .. revenge is not my way ... but I no longer care about it .. He was responsible for terrible acts throughout the world ... It will change nothing now that he is gone .. justice, probably was done. However, what difference does it all make. We are still involved in two wars and a partial third ... we don't learn and neither does the rest of the world ... until people stop killing each other over nonsense both will keep burying each other


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: andrew e
Date: 04 May 11 - 04:43 PM

Some alternative views.


http://whatreallyhappened.com/


http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Bobert
Date: 04 May 11 - 04:53 PM

Actually, gn-zer... The Pakistani president has an op-ed in today's Washigton Post that says the very same thing...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 11 - 05:08 PM

Jim,
"you got it wrong - Pakistan complained,"

No they did not.
They expressed concern.
As you say, any other country would be outraged, but they are grateful for the help against a mass murderer of their people.

The blame for London's dead lies with the West you say.
Pity the perpetrator and blame the victim.
That is your philosophy.
Right Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 May 11 - 05:32 PM

Visualize this scenario:

The US, having ascertained that Osama bin Laden is almost certainly living in a villa a short drive from the capital of Pakistan, presents their ambassador in Washington with a formal note requesting his extradition to face criminal charges in the US. Acting in an extremely expeditious manner for Pakistanis, a constable of the Abbottabad police force arrived at his compound only three weeks later to request his peaceful surrender so that a decision can be made on whether or not the American request will be honored, or if he will be deported to his native Saudi Arabia instead. To the policeman's surprise, he finds the place deserted. Seal Team 6, having been sitting in the SOG ready room at Hurlburt AFB, FL for the past 3 1/2 weeks, goes home. Articles of Impeachment are served on Pres. Obama.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 11 - 05:57 PM

"Pity the perpetrator and blame the victim."
I pity nobody here - Where have I expressed pity for anybody - do not put words into my mouth.
They are all a bunch of terrorists, and unlike you, I am not prepared to put the defence of my, or anybody's country in the hands of anybody else - whatever happened to that Union Jack you were waving so vehemently not s long ago - do you think that every country should throw open its borders to any foreign power?
What would your reaction to a bunch of cowboy marines storming through London, or Manchester?
Do you give the right to the US to drop in whenever they feel like taking out somebody in Britain?
I can't help but notice that you avoid commenting on their record on human rights violations and use of torture - that's ok is it?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: bobad
Date: 04 May 11 - 06:24 PM

Mosquitos more worthy of mercy than bin Laden: Dalai Lama

The Dalai Lama, the leader of Tibetan Buddhism, implied at a talk that the Obama administration's targeted killing of al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden was justified.

During a talk at the University of Southern California Tuesday, the Dalai Lama was asked about bin Laden's killing, and whether that could be rationalized in the context of Buddhism's dharma of forgiveness and compassion.

"Forgiveness doesn't mean forget what happened," he said, according to the LA Times. "If something is serious and it is necessary to take counter-measures, you have to take counter-measures."

In the same talk, titled "Secular Ethics, Human Values and Society," the Dalai Lama also said he tries to avoid killing mosquitos when they land on him, "when my mood is good and there is no danger of malaria."

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/05/04/mosquitos-more-worthy-of-mercy-than-bin-laden-dalai-lama/


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 May 11 - 06:44 PM

All weepy over taking out a mass murderer who was undoubtedly in the process of planning more mass murders (indeed, that was his stated intent).

This man was responsible for the deaths of 3,000 plus people some ten years ago. People who got up in the morning and went to work as usual, who shortly thereafter were suddenly confronted with such decisions as having to choose whether to jump out of a fiftieth story window and plunge to their deaths in the street below or stay there and burn to death.

And I seem to recall there was an explosion or two in London undergrounds, plotted by the same man, that killed a lot of people, people who had harmed no one, and who also were only going about their normal day's activities.

The peculiar sentiments of some people here are enough to gag a maggot!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 11 - 06:57 PM

"Of course, the British never dirtied their hands in India...."
Can't speak for Silas but - yes Britain certainly did, and has my full condemnation for having done so.
I don't think they napalmed third world peasants, or attempted to destroy their food sources with Agent Orange - nor did they drive them into their huts and burn them to death, as did your Major Calley - but what they did was no less excusable - The Empire On Which The Sun Never Sets, or The Blood Never Dries - that was how I was brought up to think of the British Empire.
And just as you got your collective arses kicked off the roof of the Saigon Embassy, our country got kicked out of (most of) our former colonies.
Some of us learned our lesson from what our Governments did - now let's hear it from you for waterboarding, or special rendition, or collateral damage, or detention without trial.... or all the other aspects of American civiliasation that puts gas in the tanks of your SUVs.
As with Keith - I won't hold my breath though!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 11 - 07:06 PM

"All weepy over taking out a mass murderer"
Has anybody become weepy Don - seems most of us are having a bit of difficulty telling the difference?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 May 11 - 07:09 PM

At the end of World War II in Europe, the architect of mass murder, Adolph Hitler chose to commit suicide rather than face justice. Americans were involved in that operation. And British.

Did you get all choked up about that, too, Jim? Or are you old enough to even remember?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: olddude
Date: 04 May 11 - 07:19 PM

One thing I am thankful for is no member of the seal team was hurt. That is something at least .. I don't know the current members of that team but they always were the most elite and most dedicated of all the service branch. They are always in harms way and answer the call of duty when ordered. They don't make political decisions, they serve and protect with their lives. Most of the other branches call those guys the archangels, because when you are pinned down or captured , their normal job is to go in and get you out alive. That is what they normally do. This time it wasn't about capture but command gave the order not them.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Bobert
Date: 04 May 11 - 07:29 PM

I'd still rather have him alive and living at Gitmo...

I question why that didn't happen... Yes, I realize that the Repubs have made a domestic trial in a US court near impossible but had I been Obama I would have pushed harder for "alive"...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: bobad
Date: 04 May 11 - 07:37 PM

Bobert, I think the fear was that holding him alive would spawn countless kidnappings and beheadings by his rabid followers both as an attempt at ransom and in retaliation.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Bobert
Date: 04 May 11 - 07:58 PM

Yeah, bobad... It might have...

This one is a toughie...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Donuel
Date: 04 May 11 - 08:25 PM

I assume you have seen the pictures of his bloody bedroom floor by his water bed on the third floor.

This should settle the debate over water bedding having anything to do with his capture and killing.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: andrew e
Date: 04 May 11 - 08:26 PM

http://www.prisonplanet.com/top-us-government-insider-bin-laden-died-in-2001-911-a-false-flag.html


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 04 May 11 - 09:08 PM

Canadian NDP Deputy Leader has doubts photo's exist


biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 May 11 - 09:19 PM

Don - no bleeding heart here. My concerns are twofold.

Was it legal? The breakdown of the rule of law is dangerous as is US belief in its own omnipotence.

What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If this was legal, so are some at least Islamist attempts to assassinate the president of the USA.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: bobad
Date: 04 May 11 - 09:28 PM

"Was it legal?"

Alan Dershowitz says it is:

"The decision to target and kill Osama Bin Laden is being applauded by all decent people. Approval to capture or kill this mass-murdering terrorist leader was given by Presidents Obama and Bush. It was the right decision, both morally and legally."


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 04 May 11 - 09:59 PM

Well, the the party (NDP) that holds the official opposition in Canada is holding off on the applause ... if you read the CBC link I posted .... if not, here's a quote from Thomas Mulcair the deputy leader of the opposition

"Mulcair also said the killing requires "a full analysis" on whether it was self-defence or a direct killing because "that has to do with American law and international law as well."

I think his point is valid, and over the next few days (as the dust of celebration settles down) many decent people will probably raise the same question .... if the NDP had won the election this would be the official stand of the Canadian government .... now I know many Canadian catter's would not and did not vote for Harper or the Liberals ... hmmmm, so who did they vote for .... :-)

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 04 May 11 - 10:06 PM

One last point here .... I also raise question if the other 3 victims were also armed .... if not, then it would be murder (would it not) or ... were they just collateral damage.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: gnu
Date: 04 May 11 - 10:18 PM

sIx... ""Mulcair also said the killing requires "a full analysis" on whether it was self-defence or a direct killing..."

It was about as direct as you can get. They came to call with nasty sons-a-bitches in choppers and shot the fucker. The under-leader of the NDP don't know what took place? Then he's a fuckin idiot. How could he say something so stunned-as-me-arse?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 04 May 11 - 10:31 PM

gnu .... "The under-leader of the NDP don't know what took place?"

exactly ... that's why he is asking for a full analysis.

"because "that has to do with American law and international law as well."

sounds fair to me.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: bobad
Date: 04 May 11 - 10:32 PM

Thomas Mulcair has the reputation of being a loose cannon.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 04 May 11 - 10:40 PM

Maybe Bobad .... but we also don't want legitimate countries of the world running around as loose cannons either .... it could make things even worse for us out there ... bad enough as it is.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 May 11 - 10:52 PM

Hey. Has anyone else clicked on the link that 'andrew' made? If even half of the information given there is true, the game is over.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Janie
Date: 04 May 11 - 11:40 PM

Ebbie,

fwiw, and maybe not much, prisonplanet is so conspiracy-minded as to make it nearly impossible to separate the facts from the paradigm.

One always has to try to separate the wheat from the chaff, but when 70-90% of the raw material is chaff, it isn't worth my time to separate out the kernels.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 May 11 - 12:50 AM

Richard Bridge: "Was it legal? The breakdown of the rule of law is dangerous as is US belief in its own omnipotence."

Gee, you pulled your head out again..probably for some 'fresh air'!
Look, in case you haven't heard this before, (being as you are hiding under 'legal-speak'), 'War is the total breakdown of law'. OBL, chose to make his play OUTSIDE ANY law, that you are holding up, for us to adhere to..not only that, he plays under his OWN rules, with utter contempt for ANY law you are quoting. Do you think 'International Law, and the 'rules of war' apply here????..or is there a breakdown, initiated by OBL, in an attempt to replace your quoted law, with Sharia law..but with himself in charge???? Do you think he should sit cross-legged, holding hands, singing 'Kumbayah', swaying back and forth, like your 'rehabilitation program' for wayward cookie jar thieves??? Hey! wise up! If ANYONE goes flying planes into buildings, killing innocent people all over the world, because he is trying to advance a primitive interpretation, to a cultist 'everybody must die who doesn't believe in Allah religion'..so no law of toleration is due them, I'm sorry....its not like mommy caught you with your fingers in the cookie jar...you go do shit like he's pulled, and you're in the big time!!..Maybe OBL should have thought of your International war rules BEFORE, he declared war on innocent people and started killing them, indiscriminately! Believe it or not, some STUPID things have consequences. If he wants to live outside the law, maybe it was fitting that he died 'outside the law'. HE made that choice!! To stop ANY further plans of his BULLSHIT, was/and is, the decent thing to do...unless YOU can get him into your make-believe world of swaying, glassy-eyed, campfire singers of 'Kumbayah'!!!

Get fuckin' real, and stop making a parody of common sense, or, for that matter, yourself!

Chances are, the directive for the mission was terminate him and gather all intelligence possible, within a certain time limit.

The fucker is DEAD!!! Got it?? Why bitch over the details???

OK, now you can re-insert your head back into that cozy warm place, and blow 'law bubbles' out the opening!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: J-boy
Date: 05 May 11 - 01:40 AM

Hey GfS, You can go ahead and leave "Kumbayah" out of it. What did that song ever do to you?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 May 11 - 01:45 AM

A bit graphically put, GfS, but very much to the point!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 11 - 01:46 AM

"Did you get all choked up about that, too, Jim? Or are you old enough to even remember?"
Sorry Don - you're doing a Keith here.
I have expressed no regret whatever that Bin Laden has gone to... wherever fanatical religious terrorists go - good riddance - another thug out of the way.
I am concerned that the US - you know the one - the big guy with the nuclear arsenal - feels it within its remit to invade any country they choose, abduct and imprison suspects and hold them indefinitely without charge or trial, ship them off to be tortured..... and all the other things terrorist countries do.
The world is an unsafe enough place without its most powerful nation acting as though it is in a John Wayne movie.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 11 - 01:59 AM

Pitying the perpetrators Jim.

You said, "every bomb that went off in London following the phony search for WMDs is down to Pres. Dubya and his poodle Blair."

That seems to absolve Bin Laden's bombers from responsibility for the carnage.
US and British terrorism made them do it, poor dears.

You may be outraged on Pakistan's behalf, but they are not.
They act out the charade of being "concerned", as with the drone strikes, but it is well understood that they are delighted.

They have lost 30 000 dead in the fight against Al Qaeda and the Taliban, and receive a billion dollars a year in military aid to resist them.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 May 11 - 02:12 AM

300...of mostly dumb things to say!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 11 - 02:16 AM

jim, you said,
"Having kids doesn't give anybody a special insight or wisdom - it just makes them experts on changing shitty nappies. "

Both my sons were down in the Underground when the 7/7 bombs went off.
I have to disagree with you.
There were no bombs in Co. Clare were there.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Taconicus
Date: 05 May 11 - 02:29 AM

And meanwhile, I believe Osama bin Laden is still dead. Probably cavorting with his (how many?) virgins right now. Who, if there is justice in the hereafter, probably have teeth in unusual places.

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 May 11 - 02:39 AM

Jim Carroll, you say: "for the latter, they have constructed concentration camps where similar illegally detained 'suspects' are held in inhuman conditions (60 odd of them at the last count) for indefinite periods with no access to friends, family or legal assistance."

Do you have firm evidence of these "concentration camps"? Where are they and how is it that you know about them?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 May 11 - 03:20 AM

Here, take a 'look-see'....
THIS IS WHAT YOU ARE DEFENDING!!!!

Download a couple of the videos...then tell me that this bullshit doesn't deserve what is coming to them!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 11 - 03:31 AM

"That seems to absolve Bin Laden's bombers from responsibility for the carnage."
No it doesn't Keith - stop wriggling.
The whole mess we are in at present can be traced back directly to the US behaviour in the middle east; original support for Saddam, Gulf War, WMD.... etc. Blair and his cronies involved Britain by sucking up to Bush and sending young men off to die for the Holy Grail that was (or wasn't) weapons of mass destruction.
None of this absolves Bin Laden, or those who will follow him - they are all part of the bloody mess that is the world today.
Now about allowing foreign troops to violate your national territory - for or against?
So far you seem to be happy that the US can send troops wherever they please, without permission, or even consultation; and you have remained silent of the use of torture et al of illegally held suspects... would you please confirm orr deny this.
And about the acts of terror carried out by the US - for or against?
"experts on changing shitty nappies"
You scurried away from the last thread - please don't bring it here - if you have anything to say on this, take it where it belongs.
I have no intention of turning this into yet another dialogue - life's far too short to spend with eejits.
Ebbie:
"they have constructed concentration camps where similar illegally detained 'suspects' are held in inhuman conditions"
Go to Florida and head south for about 90 miles – it's called Guantanamo and everybody knows about it.
GfI
Nobody is defending anything - we are wondering who is going to defend us from the defenders.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Stu
Date: 05 May 11 - 03:49 AM

Bin Laden's not dead - I've just seen him shopping in Tesco's at Handforth Dean.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 May 11 - 03:50 AM

Jim Carroll: "Nobody is defending anything - we are wondering who is going to defend us from the defenders."

Well, you should have seen the videos, by now...Those are your co-defenders..join up, with them, then!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 11 - 03:52 AM

"Those are your co-defenders..join up, with them, then!"
Sorry GfI
Not into torture and internment without trial - leave that to you terrorists.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 May 11 - 03:58 AM

Watch the videos, and you'll see the 'trial' your side gives!

gfS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 05 May 11 - 04:01 AM

"Those are your co-defenders..join up, with them, then!"

There are a group of people on this thread who are willfully misunderstanding and misrepresenting the concerns that other posters are voicing about the METHOD of Bin Laden's assassination.
These are legitimate concerns about the cavalier behaviour of one of the most powerful states in the world.

I don't see anyone weeping over dead terrorists or lining up to join Islamic extremist organisations here. Perhaps reducing the discussion to such false emotive nonsense is a bi-product of watching too much of that infamous Fox News or something.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 May 11 - 04:10 AM

Fuck the method!..A mass murderer who was the figure head of more murders was snuffed out..Good riddance!...any method was more humane than his!!!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 05 May 11 - 04:15 AM

"Fuck the method!."

Yes, you've made it clear that you believe 'the means justifies the ends' and I suppose that's fine for you in your own back yard, but other people think that the US with all it's Weapons of Mass Destruction and incessant military meddling in the Middle East for which it is greatly hated, might like to tread a little more cautiously.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 May 11 - 04:18 AM

I really don't think I need to comment on Fugitive from Sanity. All that he knows is the power of the gun. A perfect example of the anarchy that could result from the breakdown of the rule of law.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 11 - 04:28 AM

Jim,
"Now about allowing foreign troops to violate your national territory - for or against?"

If the nation concerned has no objections, who are you to object on their behalf Jim?

Other means to end this career of carnage have failed.
You all claim to be glad he has gone, but you would have preferred to wait another ten or twenty years for it to be done in a way that you find acceptable.
At what cost?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 11 - 04:49 AM

Richard, you seem very certain of the law on this.
Are you better informed than all these?

Was the killing of Bin Laden legal?

The use of deadly force against Bin Laden, who was said to be unarmed, is unlikely to be challenged in an American court, but the US has already sought to defend its position on legal grounds.

US Attorney General Eric Holder said the acts taken were "lawful, legitimate and appropriate in every way".

US legal experts point to the fact that the US had declared itself to be in armed conflict with al-Qaeda.

Kenneth Anderson, a fellow in national security and law at the Hoover Institution, told Reuters: "It's lawful for the United States to be going after Bin Laden if for no other reason than he launched an attack against the US."

Other legal experts questioned whether this would stand up under international law.

Targeted killings under US law remains a disputed area.

US executive order 12333, signed by President Ronald Reagan, says: "No person employed by or acting on behalf of the United States government shall engage in, or conspire to engage in, assassination."

However, the term assassination has never been fully defined and some US legal advisers have sought to argue it does not apply in conflict situations.

State department legal adviser Harold Koh, quoted by Mr Anderson, said in March: "Under domestic law, the use of lawful weapons systems - consistent with the applicable laws of war - for precision targeting of specific high-level belligerent leaders when acting in self-defence or during an armed conflict is not unlawful, and hence does not constitute 'assassination'."

Profs William C Banks and Peter Raven-Hansen, writing in the University of Richmond Law Review, also argue it does not apply to figures such as Bin Laden, nor when the US is "in hostilities such as the Gulf War or war on those responsible for the 11 September attacks".

"The targeted killing of terrorists is therefore not unlawful," they conclude.

Mindful of its need to stress the military nature of the killing and the need to abide by conventions, the US has also said that Bin Laden presented a clear danger to its troops.

CIA director Leon Panetta said: "Obviously, under the rules of engagement, if he had in fact thrown up his hands, surrendered and didn't appear to be representing any kind of threat, then they were to capture him. But they had full authority to kill him."

Another US defence official said: "There were certainly capture contingencies, as there must be."

British law professor Philippe Sands QC, of University College London, says the US can certainly argue that it was entitled to take action to protect its citizens against a deadly enemy.

"Even if the use of deadly force was unlawful, international law recognises that there are exceptional circumstances where necessity precludes wrongfulness, and this will be said to be one of those case," Mr Sands told the BBC.

But Mr Sands says that what Pakistan knew and authorised, and what happened when the commandos confronted Bin Laden, will need to be known before the legal situation of the raid becomes clear.

UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay has called for more information and stressed international law must be respected - but accepted that taking Bin Laden alive was always likely to be difficult.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 May 11 - 04:55 AM

So what prescription do you take?? 'Stupid pills??'

No, I do not believe that the 'ends justify the means'...but it seems to me that you 'get off' on having a brutal mass murderer slaughtering innocent people...like it's some twisted fantasy of yours!
watch the videos, I posted...then you figure a way to
'reason' with the 'inspirational figure head' of the loons, committing those atrocities!
Your ideological, political beliefs are running am-muck over both your experience in life, and common sense!
This asshole declared WAR on non 'believers', and targeted unarmed women children, and any civilians, of our cultures as his targets!...So what do you want us to do?..give him a 'fine' and probation??
..and don't get me wrong, yes, there are things that both our countries do, that I don't like...but that is no excuse to be so willingly as nonsensical as you two idiots!
Would it matter to either one of you, of how many more innocent people might be spared, by knocking this crackpot out?..or does the thought of bombs ripping through populated public centers get you wet? ...so you think you can claim some sort of moral high ground?
The guy should have been taken out a long time ago..any way possible!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 05 May 11 - 05:41 AM

"...but it seems to me that you 'get off' on having a brutal mass murderer slaughtering innocent people...like it's some twisted fantasy of yours!"

It seems to me that you're so stupid that you're incapable of understanding the very basics of what other people write, and prefer to attribute them with bizzare fantasies of your own creation instead. Must be a lot of fun living in your mind.

Byeee...


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 11 - 05:45 AM

"If the nation concerned has no objections, "
Pakistan was not asked and no nation should be invaded by foreign troops in order to carry out an assassination - so you are granting any power the right to invade Britain and seek permission afterwards - piss off Keith, your prattism get prattier.
As far not protesting - how loud would you protest if an armed bully broke into your house - the Pakistanis protested as loud as they dared - stop lying and prevaricating.
As you still don't comment on the US's use of torture and imprisonment without trial - I assume you support that on the basis that the victims haven't protested loud enough, so must be in favour of it?
Don't ring us - we'll ring you!
I understand that the killing of bin Laden is now to be made into a video game, and I also understand that, as the information leading to his capture was gained through torture, there has been a call from a US senator to continue using it as a means of information gathering.
I also read that four London Metropolitan policemen are now standing trial for the beating up of a terrorist suspect - the disease appears to be contageous.
A letter to the Irish Times this morning sums up my own feelings pretty well - I was particularly moved by the quote from Nurenberg.

"The killing of Osama bin Laden was not the justice that President Obama, a constitutional lawyer, learned about in an American law school.
The scenes of jubilation in Washington DC and New York City were understandable, but regrettable. While bin Laden's death may have been unavoidable -1 hope that it was - far better had he been captured and tried to the highest standards, which the US president pledged to abide by. In his inauguration speech the president said: "Our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint." If in fact bin Laden's death was avoidable, then a unique chance for the United States to show the very best of itself to the world was lost, even though the president may benefit in terms of electoral politics.
In 1945, Robert H Jackson, the chief United States prosecutor, said in a court in Nuremberg: "That four great nations, flushed with victory and stung with injury stay the hand of vengeance and voluntarily submit their captive enemies to the judgment of the law is one of the most significant tributes that Power ever has paid to Reason." –"
Yours, etc,
RENE ROSENSTOCK,

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,liely
Date: 05 May 11 - 05:52 AM

"or does the thought of bombs ripping through populated public centers get you wet?"

You repulsive fucking cretin.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 11 - 05:59 AM

Jim, there is nothing stopping Pakistan objecting.
They do not object, and expressed satisfaction with the outcome.
The only people objecting are Hamas and the likes of you.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 05 May 11 - 06:05 AM

Apologies to the forum for my last piece of invective. If anyone watching here is a moderator I'd like to request that they remove that post - and ideally the one from the previous poster containing their loathesome sexual fantasies about bombs.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 11 - 07:31 AM

Jim, Nuremberg was made possible by the defeat and surrender of the Axis forces.
The war against Al Qaeda goes on.

The action was almost certainly legal.
Pakistan and the UN have raised no objections.
What is yours, other than that America has been successful in removing an enemy?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Brian May
Date: 05 May 11 - 07:46 AM

On a serious note - because you're all being far too frivolous:

Anagram of 'Osama bin Laden' really is 'Lob da man in sea'.

Spooky eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Silas
Date: 05 May 11 - 07:51 AM

Is the world a safer place today than it was on Sunday?

I don't think it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 May 11 - 07:55 AM

Keith, you really only have to read the remarks you cite to see my point.

Fugitive from Sanity - I have made it very plain that I am not necessarily saying that the death of ObL was "a bad thing". Lawful killing depends on due process. There wasn't any.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 May 11 - 07:59 AM

So there is a video game in the works, and no doubt several competing docudramas. This will make interesting history to thrash over in the years to come, and maybe a few sequels as well.

Any suggestions for who should play what parts, or should it be the real people?

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Donuel
Date: 05 May 11 - 08:02 AM

ebbie ebbie ebbie
If I had posted a prison planet link you would have been outraged in the opposite direction.

Do you really feel legality is the main issue?

IS it justified?

IS it revenge?

Is it just revenge?

Assasination by the state is illegal for heads of state.

ObL was not a head of State.

Khadafy is. Missing him last week and again killing his children with drones is technically illegal. The letter of the law isrubbed out in war. The spirit of of the law is ignored. All is fair in war.

The primary issue here in my opinion is war itself.

Every conspiracy theory I have seen has at its core the purpose to frame Obama as the blundering thug, something that was celebrated on high for GWB.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 11 - 08:02 AM

"Lawful killing depends on due process."

Not true.
There are many circumstances where killing can be lawful.

None of the experts I cited would state that this killing was not lawful.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Silas
Date: 05 May 11 - 08:05 AM

Hmmm

WHICH killing Keith? There was more than one death, or are they all 'justified'?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 11 - 08:13 AM

Keith;
As you support the incursion of foreign troops on sovereign in order to carry out an assassination (good old-fashioned treachery as John LeCarre would call it) and are an apologist for torture and internmnt without trial, we really do have nothing to say to each other - may you and your terrorist friends be very happy together.
I have to confess that I had overlooked your previously stated low opinion of Pakistanis (via a previous thread), so it should have come as no surprise to me that you are prepared to accept an unlawful (by international law) incursion into their territory - silly me!!
Richard - you're wasting your time - he's a redneck fruitcake who has been out of work since they finished filming Deliverance
Jim Carroll
PS Just been PMd a poison pen letter from what sounds like a Christian fundamentalist who chiding me for my opposition to homophobia and executing children, and saying something should be done about me - perhaps I should put you two in touch; you appear to have much in common.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 05 May 11 - 08:29 AM

"PS Just been PMd a poison pen letter from what sounds like a Christian fundamentalist who chiding me for my opposition to ... executing children"

Ahh, I wonder if this person might be related to the person who posts graphic sexual "snuff" fantasies about people "getting wet" and "getting off" on bombings?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Donuel
Date: 05 May 11 - 08:34 AM

Ding Dong! bin Laden's dead. Which old bitch? The Wicked bitch!
Ding Dong! The Wicked Laden's dead.
Wake up - you sleepy head, rub your eyes, get out of bed.
Wake up, the Wicked bin Laden's dead.
He's gone where goblins go,
Below - below - below. Yo-ho, let's see him dead and see what the picture shows.
Ding Dong' the merry-oh, sing it high, sing it low.
Let them know
The Wicked Laden's dead!

(Obama)
As commander and chief, In the County of the Land of UZ, I inform you most regally.
(Petraus)
But we've got to verify it legally, to see
(Panetta)
To see?
(PEtraus))
If he
(Panetta)
Is photo'd and buried at sea?
(Admiral Mullen)
Is morally, ethically,
(Father No.1)
Spiritually, physically
Father No. 2
Positively, absolutely
(Cable News Talking Heads)
Undeniably and reliably Dead

(DNA expert)
As Coroner I must concur, I thoroughly examined this monstrous cur. His mitochondrial DNA cross referenced with his sister shows...
That he's not only merely dead, he's really most sincerely dead.
(Obama)
Then this is a day of Independence For all good Americans and their descendants
(Petraus)
If any.
(Panetta)
Yes, let the joyous news be spread The wicked bin Laden at last is dead!
(FOX NEWS) We'd really like a pic instead.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 11 - 08:40 AM

Jim,
"Keith;
As you support the incursion of foreign troops on sovereign in order to ...."

Jim, under the law of armed conflict, a state can attack someone on the territory of another nation for self defence.

Take it up with ICRC.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 11 - 09:58 AM

Jim,
"your previously stated low opinion of Pakistanis"

This is a lie Jim.
I never have and never would state anything of the sort.

Jim " you are prepared to accept an unlawful (by international law) incursion into their territory "

Where does you certainty on this come from Jim.
Are you better informed than all the experts I cited?

Also, Noam Lubell of The National Human Rights Centre, Galway University, Ireland, "Europe's top expert on targeted killings"
on BBC Radio 4 World At One, 5th May 2011, starting 7minutes and 40 seconds in.
This available on line for a few days only.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Silas
Date: 05 May 11 - 10:01 AM

Yes, Keith, I listened to this. It appears that not only were they completely wrong to do what they did, they also were wrong to 'bury' the body at sea.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 11 - 10:03 AM

Keith - it might come as a surpise to you, but nobody is at war with Pakistan, nor is it occupied by a foreign power.
Now you are being silly - and have made yourself a terrorist state's dream come true - "Come in, just prop your Kalashnikovs in the corner - don't mind the onlooker you've just shot dead; we'll sweep her up later".
Would you extend this invitation to all our allies, or have our Transatlantic cousins promised you some chewing gum and nylons?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 11 - 10:08 AM

Are abusive terms like "redneck" OK?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 11 - 10:13 AM

Jim, for national self defence The Law Of Armed Conflict allows a state to use forcible measures within the territory of another state without consent.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 11 - 10:18 AM

Listen again Silas.
I agree about the burial, but my last statement was a quote from Lubell.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qptc


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Silas
Date: 05 May 11 - 10:19 AM

I don't have sound on this PC. However, 'Self Defence'? Really?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Donuel
Date: 05 May 11 - 10:41 AM

No one is at war with Pakistan?

Ask the artillary regiments in India and Pakistan who trade shells almost daily in and around Kashmir.

Ask an average Indian about the Taj Hotel attack by Pakistan ISSA commandos.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 11 - 11:04 AM

and it "was justified as an act of national self defense."

"Let me make something very clear," Holder told the Senate Judiciary Committee. "The operation in which Usama bin Laden was killed was lawful. He was the head of al Qaeda, the organization that had conducted the attacks of September 11th. He admitted his involvement ... [and] he said he would not be taken alive."

Holder said it's lawful to "target an enemy commander in the field," just as U.S. forces did during World War II when it shot down a plane carrying Japanese Adm. Isoroku Yamamoto.

Bin Laden was "by my estimation, and the estimation of the Justice Department, a lawful military target, and the operation was conducted consistent with our law [and] with our values."

Bin Laden made no attempts to surrender and there was "no indication he wanted to do that," Holder said. Even if the Al Qaeda leader had surrendered, there would have been a "good basis" for "those very brave Navy SEALs" to shoot bin Laden "in order to protect themselves and the other people who were in that building," including "substantial numbers of women and children" who were not harmed in the raid.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 11 - 11:11 AM

According to the principles of self-defense enshrined in the UN Charter, the nation-state has a right to protect itself when attacked. Notwithstanding important questions regarding the limits and legality of pre-emptive self-defense, Bin Laden's continued threats and his proven ability to successfully conduct attacks—9/11 in particular—unequivocally categorized him as a legitimate target at the time he was killed. The attack, therefore, was not an act of retribution under international law. It also adhered to fundamental international law principles, including distinction, military necessity, proportionality and alternatives. As a result, the operation was the manifestation of lawful and legitimate self-defense.
Amos N. Guiora is Professor of Law at S.J. Quinney College of Law, the University of Utah;
http://www.jurist.org/forum/2011/05/amos-guiora-targeting-bin-laden.php


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Silas
Date: 05 May 11 - 11:18 AM

"Bin Laden made no attempts to surrender and there was "no indication he wanted to do that," Holder said. Even if the Al Qaeda leader had surrendered, there would have been a "good basis" for "those very brave Navy SEALs" to shoot bin Laden "in order to protect themselves and the other people who were in that building," including "substantial numbers of women and children" who were not harmed in the raid."

Well, which of the two experts that you have quoted do you believe - they diametrically oposite things.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 11 - 11:37 AM

Sorry Silas, I see no contradiction.
In any case, I am not qualified to find fault with such eminent authorities on international law.

I have produced expert testimony that it was definitely legal, and some who say it is debatable.
I have found none who state that is was illegal.
Have you Silas?
Have you Jim?

Neither Pakistan nor the UN are about to make a legal challenge anyway.

Jim, you say you are glad he is dead.
You can not show that the killing was illegal.
What ARE you bitching about?
Is it just that America has been successful and destroyed an enemy?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 11 - 11:40 AM

You are an apologist for United States aggression and a trairor who is prepared to put your country's defence in the hands of a nation that uses terrorism as a matter of course - in both war or peacetime.
A bit of a mess really.
And still not one word of either condemnation or defence on the use of torture against detainees!!
"Are abusive terms like "redneck" OK?"
They are when it fits as well as it does here (aimed at Abandoned all Sanity btw - not you)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Silas
Date: 05 May 11 - 11:43 AM

The guy on the radio clearly said that it was illigal to shoot and kill a person in your custody which bin laden clearly was. You have not addressd the point about the other murdered people in the raid.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 11 - 11:50 AM

And while you're avoiding questions perhaps you could continue to avoid this one - would you be just as accomodating if the target had been Wandsworth High Street?
It usually takes about ten goes before yo answer the hard ones, and then you hardly ever give a straight answer.
And BTW - the US act was one of aggression, not defence, and could easily, and should have involved the Pakistani government, especially as one non-combatent was fatally injured and one wounded.
If the Pakistanis were as compliant as you claim they were, they would have had no difficulty in co-operating, or at least giving permission for the incursion.
Now answer the bloody question
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 11 - 12:13 PM

Silas, "murder" is a well defined concept.
Do you have enough evidence to state that people were murdered?

Jim,
You say I am "a trairor who is prepared to put your country's defence in the hands of a nation that uses terrorism as a matter of course - in both war or peacetime."

Why?

"And still not one word of either condemnation or defence on the use of torture against detainees!!"

That is not under discussion.
You always try to change the subject when you lose an argument.
Start a new thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Silas
Date: 05 May 11 - 12:15 PM

Well, I wouldn't have thought it too difficult. You storm into a building with the intention of killing/capturing a known enemy, but you also end up shooting and killing other unarmed people - people who have nothing to do with your argument apart from the fact that they were related to or personally knew your target.

Sounds a bit like murder to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Donuel
Date: 05 May 11 - 12:24 PM

Glen Beck is also drumming up sympathy for bin Laden, his wife and children along with Khadafy and his kids.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Silas
Date: 05 May 11 - 12:28 PM

This is not about sympathy for Bin Laden, far from it, the bastard deserved all he got, it is the way that it was done that is deeply disturbing.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Donuel
Date: 05 May 11 - 12:30 PM

Lets say FOX NEWS can present all relevant facts that would condemn President Obama as a guilty murderer.

Will an International COurt try him?
SHould he be asked for his PEace PRize back?
WIll this cause him to lose an election?
Will Congressman Issa bring murder charges to impeach Obama???


What I really want to consider from all your comments is...

Will the argument of murder help either America or the world at large?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 05 May 11 - 12:31 PM

Do you have enough evidence to state that people were murdered?

Anyone keeping up with the rapidly changing official versions of events should by now know only one person put up armed resistance only to be killed, minutes after the team went into the compound. That's the official version as it is now. Make of that what you will.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 11 - 12:33 PM

Silas, I was just making the case that expert opinion is that the operation was legal.

You are asking if the soldiers themselves behaved properly.
Let's wait until we get the definitive version of events.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 May 11 - 12:38 PM

Keep digging Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 May 11 - 12:44 PM

Sounds a bit like murder to me.

Naah- just alittle collateral damage.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Donuel
Date: 05 May 11 - 12:56 PM

If Hitler had been killed by the attempt of Von Stauffenberg under orders of Oster, would the world consider it murder?

Certainly some elements in the 3rd Reich would certainly consider it murder.


For those here who consider the crime of murder was in fact committed against Usama bin Laden by Obama, could you explain why you feel that way.

And most importantly who would be helped by such an indictment and trial?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 May 11 - 01:01 PM

Of course the blameless Jean-Paul de Menezes didn't have any weapons either, when he was shot seven times in the head by the London police, while being held down in his seat on the London Tube.

At least Bin Laden did have some form, and the Seals only shot him twice.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 May 11 - 01:03 PM

Oh, you dear idiots who have the attention span of a mayfly! Right after 911 massacre in New York, then, President Bush, in an address to both this nation, and the world made the announcement that America was going to hunt down the perpetrators, and go anywhere, to get them, dead or alive..(remember that??). He also declared, that ANY nation harboring them would be held responsible, and subject to whatever military action that was necessary, to accomplish the mission.
By Pakistan's participation, whether in part, or in totality, in providing 'safe harbor' to the mass murderer, after such a declaration, was, in essence, willing to make the gamble.
At this time, it would be incumbent, on Pakistan, to ferret out those within their government, who granted PERMISSION, for the incursion, which led to both the killing of OBL, and to the embarrassment of their country's, either ineptness, or complicity, in providing safe harbor, to this world-wide war criminal!...or, as it did, face the consequences!
By Pakistan, declaring themselves an ally on the 'war on terror', and the fact, that they have only given mixed objections, that they were not informed, (which because of the operation's secrecy concerns), your protests, have NO basis, than your personal bitch!
OBL EARNED what he got! He worked hard for it! He expected it,(note the fortified compound) and had stated as much, that he was willing to die for it..(though, according to the 'reports' he hid behind his woman--great guy). He lived in relative luxury, while he ordered young, both women and young men to their suicidal deaths, to take other innocent lives...WITHOUT WARNING!
So, I guess what goes around, comes around! HE ORDERED the same type of deaths that he brought onto himself....GET OVER IT!!!!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 11 - 01:04 PM

"That is not under discussion."
Yes; it is very much under discussion   - it is important as that nation you opened your doors (or in this case, another nations doors) to willingly is involved in terrorist activity itself. You still dishonestly evade the questions - would you object if the Americans had made a part of Britain their battlegound without permission, consultation or warning, and does it make any difference that they are involved in torture and detention without trial - which makes you both a liar and a coward. Come on Keith - US terrorism and an incursion into Britain , for or against .
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 May 11 - 01:05 PM

I dont believe this kind of propoganda, this reminds me of the nonsense about Mao tse tung swimming the yangtse river.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 May 11 - 01:29 PM

Oh Jimmy, we must have cross threaded..because you just made more nonsense.
Pakistan's complicity, by either incompetency or deliberate, granted permission!..Not that reality makes a bit of difference to you. You live in your own little world, in your head!
Look, one more time, once a person starts KILLING people INDISCRIMINATELY, then that person is completely open, to whatever fate befalls him..BY HIS STUPID choice to do so!!!
Like I posted before..GET OVER IT!!...besides, you're flat out wrong! The stopping of OBL, anyway possible, was not only inevitable, it was completely necessary, and also welcomed by most of the civilized world.. try living in it!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Donuel
Date: 05 May 11 - 01:43 PM

When you preface your remarks...Dear maggots and morons,
reasonable people may not read furher.



I keep asking questions that a Supreme Court Justice might ask. Questions so basic and universal that the advocate or defense lawyer would have to take a clear stand on the issue.

Some people say we should at least be honest in the words we use and call it assasination instead of justice being served.

"Attention guests in the Liddo Lounge Justice is being Served"
or
We assasinated bin Laden today.

Others still pursue the concept of state murder being illegal.

When police do it I feel it is no less dangerous a precedent as when Navy Seals do it.

I am on the side of getting it right.

Is it right to call Obama a murderer, after all he has ordered and succeeded in the killing of pirates, terrorists and others. He has not always gotten it right.

At least he got this one right.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Donuel
Date: 05 May 11 - 01:49 PM

Jim, I'll bite.

I am for an invasion of Britain to forcably remove all cameras from public streets and allow peace loving citizens to be intoxicated on the streets of any city or township. Then establish non amendable law to insure the allotments of every citizen to be sacrosanct and beyond the influence of any future government official.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 11 - 02:16 PM

Jim,
"You still dishonestly evade the questions"

Because they are such stupid questions Jim!

If you want to discuss "torture" then no, I will not be a party to such thread creep to get you off this hook.

"Keith - US terrorism and an incursion into Britain , for or against ."

I do not acknowledge US terrorism.
An incursion would have to be justified and lawful.
If it was both, how could I object?

Now answer my question.
If you are glad he is dead and the killing was lawful, what are you angry about?
Is it just that America has had a success, and an enemy of the West destroyed?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: gnu
Date: 05 May 11 - 02:46 PM

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity - PM
Date: 05 May 11 - 03:20 AM

I watched the first "Russian" vid. I had to stop. I am raw. I am enraged. Good thing I don't have my finger on the red button right now on accounta I would nuke the fuckers til they glow. The whole lot.

I realize I shall be assailed with the "few bad apples" arguement. I'd still press the button at the moment. Sick motherfuckers.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 11 - 03:09 PM

Not just a few bad apples gnu, that is how Al Qaeda conducts its business.
Jim is anxious to have US behaviour discussed, but not that stuff.
Right Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: gnu
Date: 05 May 11 - 03:24 PM

Well, I think those videos (I only watched part of one) should be shown on the major TV networks around the world repeatedly to expose their sick minds.

Would it be an incitement against Islam? Yup. Too fuckin bad. I am still reeling. I just cannot fathom the disgusting... fuck.... I have NO words.

If I Had A Rocket Launcher? (Sorry Bruce.)

Religion is one fucked up deal with the devil. I am raw... and sad.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 11 - 03:44 PM

"Because they are such stupid questions Jim!"
You have the reasons these questions need to be addressed Keith and once more, as you did on your 'degenerate Pakistani' thread, you claim thread creep.
You have proposed that it was acceptible for the US to go into Pakistan uninvited and unannounced (giving the strange reason that the Pakistanis didn't mind or they would have protested louder than they did - and they did protest, in spite of your denials - what responsible government would not protest?)
If you are going to allow any armed military force within your borders - invited or otherwise - you have to be sure they can be trusted.
The US has a well established and verified track record of arresting people without charge, denying them legal advice or access to their (uninformed) families and holding them in intolerabe, inhuman conditions - undisputed. In the past these prisoners have been humiliated, abused and terrorising for the entertainment of the prison staff - also indisputed. Some have been, and probably still are being shipped off to be tortured in countries with human rights records even poorer than that of the US (not to mention the in-house torture routinely carried out by US personell and authourised by their superiors - also undisputed).
Why is all this not relevant to the US sending troops into Pakistan - would you want such people, armed and prepared to kill, storming their way around Britain?
It has every relevance to allowing an armed incursion into any sovereign state; and you know damn well it is, which is why you will not say if you would think it acceptable if it were to happen in Britain.   
You seem to have painted yourself into a corner.
If you say you would accept it happening to Britain, you would then have to tackle the problem of the US's human rights record and explain why these people would not put British citizens at risk - especially British Asians (perhaps not a problem for you given your 'culturally degenerate view of British Pakistanis).
If, on the other hand, you say it is not acceptable in Britain, that would make your stance blatently hypocritical in allowing an incursion in another country, but not into your own.
So you spinelessly opt out, claiming these questions not relevant - sorry Keith - it just doesn't wash - they have every relevance.
Why are you prepared to allow a heavily armed military force of a nation with a track record of human rights abuses
                                                       - particularly in regard to Asians - into an Asian country, uninvited and unannounced?.   
A failure to answer these questions exposes you as the hypocrite I believe you to be.
Jim Carroll
PS "Oh Jimmy"
I see we've got Jed Clampitt back with us - shouldn't that be "Here's Johnny"


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 May 11 - 03:54 PM

Let me get this straight:

It's okay for someone to order lobbing missiles at U.S. embassies around the world, killing American ambassadors and their staffs, and it's okay for the same person to mastermind the destruction of the World Trade Center, leading to the horrible deaths of over three thousand ordinary American citizens, and it's just ducky-peachy if this same person sends suicide bombers into the London Underground and onto a double-decker bus during rush-hour to kill God knows how many citizens of the UK.

But it's NOT okay if the United States sends in what amounts to a SWAT team and takes the blood-thirsty, murdering son-of-a-bitch out before he has a chance to order the deaths of still MORE people—some of whom might very well be British!

After all, when it comes to empire and exploitation, Merry Olde England has quite a lengthy and checkered history in the Middle-East that many Middle-Easterners haven't forgotten about.

Pakistan ostensibly was helping the United States (and other countries, don't forget) try to find Osama bin Laden and his fellow terrorists, so they could hardly have any objection to the U.S. sending in a SWAT team quickly, when he WAS found, lest he escape again. Especially when there was some doubt as to just how much the Pakistani government really WAS cooperating, in spite of what they claimed.

As to the legality of the operation, there is the principle of "the right of hot pursuit" as I mention up-thread. It's LEGAL according to International Law. If you don't like it, take it up with The Hague!

The level of prejudice against Americans that a couple of people on this thread are displaying is really quite revealing! If David Cameron had ordered the raid and it had proceeded in exactly the same manner, I think the reaction of these SAME FOLKS would have been jubilation rather than condemnation.

Disgusting!!

Don Firth

P. S. Speaking of David Cameron:
David Cameron hailed the death of Osama bin Laden as a "massive step forward" in the fight against terrorism.

In a statement, the prime minister said: "The news that Osama Bin Laden is dead will bring great relief to people across the world."

"Osama bin Laden was responsible for the worst terrorist atrocities the world has seen - for 9/11 and for so many attacks, which have cost thousands of lives, many of them British.

"It is a great success that he has been found and will no longer be able to pursue his campaign of global terror.

Cameron said it was "a time to remember all those murdered" by bin Laden. "It is also a time too to thank all those who work round the clock to keep us safe from terrorism.

"Their work will continue. I congratulate President Obama and those responsible for carrying out this operation."
From The Guardian


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Justa Picker
Date: 05 May 11 - 04:05 PM

I for one don't buy any of it for 1 second.

The timing of it is hugely suspect and creates a nice (temporary) diversion (and patriotic feel good moment) from the economy, the collapsing dollar, the hugely unpopular Obama and Dem. administration, the cost of gas, the skyrocketing debt, the move away from the dollar as the world's reserve currency, as well as an opportunity to isolate Pakistan, and increase all levels of internal spying and boost the security apparatus via Big Brother (because "now we have to worry about reprisals") plus no pics-no body ... all of which if anyone has 1/2 a brain = HOAX.

For a little bit of a different perspective and possible enlightenment, you might want to read this article - not that it would be taken seriously on a forum and community such as this one.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 11 - 04:05 PM

Cross posted
"Jim is anxious to have US behaviour discussed, but not that stuff."
Nobody here condones orhas attemped to avoid the behaviour of these people - if this is not so, show me where they have.
They should be punished for what they are and what they do - but it is eqyually important that those who oppose them are not placed in the same bracket of being human rights abusers or military cowboys acting as if they are on the set of a Silvester Stallone film - it is as much a matter of winning hearts and minds as it is taking out the enemy - only this will bring long term peace and trust - something that he Stormin' Normans of this world have yet to learn.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 May 11 - 04:10 PM

Don - no, nobody here said that. Remedial reading 101 for you.

Fugitive From Sanity - So, the Srub made a declaration of unlawful intent. Wow!

Keith: "An incursion would have to be justified and lawful". Precisely.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Wesley S
Date: 05 May 11 - 04:20 PM

Justa Picker - I wasn't able to access the article you referenced. All I got was a home page. Could you cut and paste?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Justa Picker
Date: 05 May 11 - 04:27 PM

http://www.prisonplanet.com/top-us-government-insider-bin-laden-died-in-2001-911-a-false-flag.html


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 05 May 11 - 04:40 PM

"it is as much a matter of winning hearts and minds as it is taking out the enemy - only this will bring long term peace and trust"

Precisely. America's relationship with Pakistan was already damaged enough prior to this incident, I can't see that publicly humiliating the Pakistani government and people will help to repair that damage. As for the so-called 'war on terror', as others have said, only time will tell as to whether this will be shown to be a strategic faux pass as well as a diplomatic one.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 May 11 - 04:42 PM

"Don - no, nobody here said that. Remedial reading 101 for you"

Sorry, Richard, but it stands out like a angry, red boil on the tip of Jim Carroll's nose. Pretty hard to hide.

No problem with my reading comprehension.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 11 - 04:47 PM

"red boil on the tip of Jim Carroll's nos"
Which bit did I get wrong about the US's cack handed approach Don?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: bobad
Date: 05 May 11 - 04:58 PM

Was bin Laden's killing and burial legal?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 May 11 - 06:07 PM

Read your own posts, Jim.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 11 - 06:25 PM

"Read your own posts, Jim."
Carry them in my head Don - now tell me the US doesn't use torture and imprisonment without trial in it's fight against tourism - as Dubya would have it - and if it does, how does that make the US any different from any other terrorist state - unless you have 'God on you side'
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 May 11 - 06:27 PM

Wow Don!..I love the passion, in which you come off with!! (mine ain't too shabby, either)!
THAT is what translates GREAT into music!!..providing we 'practice, practice, practice!'
..and although the above sentences may SEEM out of place here, it sure beats being involved with the behavior of groups of people who conduct war!!!!

Hey, Regards!!....Let's put this to good use!!...(works for me)
Nonetheless, OBL needed to go, any way, that made it happen!..and your last post of From:   Don Firth
                     Date: 05 May 11 - 03:54 PM
.................was dead on the money!!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 May 11 - 06:33 PM

""You want deeply religious president, Don? I've had enough of those. I want a practical one and what Obama did was practical. I'd be furious with a president who refused to act on religious grounds.""

Where in fucks name did you find any religious reference in my posts man?

Don't put words into my mouth to bolster your weak arguments.

Even atheists can and do have morals. Your country apparently considers them a hindrance to their self appointed role as world policeman.

Being practical is all very well and the world is a much better place without that scumbag, but I'm left with the feeling that I am not sure which presents the greater threat to the world, the hatred in the hearts of terrorists, or the immoral arrogance of pragmatists.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 May 11 - 06:44 PM

I would be very interested in seeing a practical scenario for the peaceful capture of Osama from some of those who believe that what actually happened violated some "rule of law".


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 May 11 - 06:45 PM

Oh, and gnu, you were, as I was, really furious at the barbaric behavior of Muslims in those gruesome videos...and there are LOTS of them!(unfortunately)...especially those asinine practitioners, of a medieval, crackpot 'religion'!
Any one, who has ANY idea, of what OBL and his devotees, to bullshit, have been up to, would clearly welcome the removal of that scum off the earth......even if it's by another type of scum!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 May 11 - 06:52 PM

". . . tell me the US doesn't use torture and imprisonment without trial in it's fight against tourism - as Dubya would have it - and if it does, how does that make the US any different from any other terrorist state - unless you have 'God on you side'"

Waterboarding and other such "enhanced interrogation" methods have long since been condemned by a vast number of American citizens AND politicians. And some Americans have called for those who perpetrated it, and especially those who ordered it, to face trial in an international tribunal. And those who speak out against the use of torture are NOT being rounded up and put in concentration camps. THAT, among other things, makes the U.S. quite different from terrorist states.

You can't condemn American intelligence services using torture any more that Americans themselves do, Jim. It's unacceptable and they will answer for it.

In the meantime, your prejudices are patently obvious and tend to undermine anything serious that you might have to say.

Don Firth

P. S. Busy evening, so I won't be back for awhile. So if I don't respond to the inevitable attacks, that doesn't mean I agree with them. See ya later.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 11 - 07:48 PM

Sorry you're not here Don; I'm not trying to score points in your absence but I think your comments are relevant to this.
Whatever the American people have to say about what happens - it still happens, and that is how your nation is judged - just as the UK was judged for its collusion in the invasion of Iraq, despite the fact that a million people took to the streets in opposition on the eve of the invasion.
Nobody is trying to implicate the whole of the American people, but while waterboarding, special rendition and collateral damage happens, it is America that makes it happen.
There are still unofficial flights going through Shannon, about half-an-hour's drive from here, unchecked by the Irish authorites, taking uncharged prisoners to god-knows-where to have god-knows-what done to them - it is believed on a weekly basis.
The arrest of bin Laden, a trial and sentence would have been 100 times more impressive to the rest of the world that the bloody act of vengeance which took place, and would not have caused the antagonism that has arisen over the hasty execution of a murderous terrorist.
America is good at many things, but winning friends isn't one of them - perhaps some of your leaders should drag their copies of Dale Carnegie off the shelf and take another look!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 May 11 - 08:19 PM

I hate to break into a spirited discussion but maybe we should all take a deep breath and consider how the rest of the world has been discussing this event.

The Mudcat current discussion of Bin Ladin's death is highly unusual compared to the main media, blogs and other websites: click here for overview!

The focus of discussion here is predominately on the morality of his death.

Charley Noble
You have to go to http://www.journalism.org/ and click on it there. I think they've blocked the direct link.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 May 11 - 09:14 PM

BTW, "collateral damage", as the news media and other such dolts use the term, has been happening ever since an archer aimed at Alexander the Great and hit his horse. It is neither unique to the US military not is it a matter of policy or intent.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 May 11 - 10:57 PM

Jim Carroll: "America is good at many things, but winning friends isn't one of them - perhaps some of your leaders should drag their copies of Dale Carnegie off the shelf and take another look!"

The Constitution and the Bill of Rights are a far shorter read...and they don't even read them..or act like they know what's in them..and furthermore, don't seem to care!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 11 - 02:03 AM

This thread is about the taking of Bin Laden, and is the only thread where we can discuss that.
Jim is only interested in venting his demented hatred for the West in general, and USA in particular.
This subject lacks scope for that so he seeks to make it yet another thread about rendition and interrogation.
Please do not indulge him.

The legality of this operation has not been challenged by any country or organisation.
Not Pakistan, not UN, not even Hamas.

If the soldiers behaved unlawfully, I will not defend them.
We do not know all the details, and they had to assume he would have a suicide belt.
The law of armed conflict does not preclude operations against targets where civilians are present and vulnerable.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 11 - 02:34 AM

"Jim is only interested in venting his demented hatred for the West in general, and USA in particular."
Empty invective is one way of avoiding the important questions and your insistence on not answering them gives us all the answers we need.
For or against Keith?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 May 11 - 02:53 AM

Paddy Ashdown (for the benefit of USAians, former leader of the Lib-Dems and in the past a senior SAS soldier) gave a nastly little neocon writer SUCH a verbal kicking on question time last night. One difference being that Paddy Ashdown had practical experience of what he was talking about.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 11 - 02:55 AM

For or against what Jim?
If it is not about the death of Bin Laden I will not answer here.
There are many old threads you can open, or start a new one.
This is the only thread we have about this momentous event.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 11 - 03:15 AM

Jim keeps repeating this lie.
e.g. "given your 'culturally degenerate view of British Pakistanis"

Can he be prevented from slandering me in that particularly disgusting way please.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 11 - 03:55 AM

How can the human rights record of a country you are prepared to give carte blanche to, to enter your country and carry our an assassination not be relevent to the events under discussion?
Of course you won't answer; your stance on this is totally hypocritical and dishonest.
As with whether you would accept the same nation with the same human rights record entering Britain unnanounced and without permission' how difficult can it possibly be to answer yes or no?
If you would support the right of U.S. troops to enter Pakistan, then it follows that you have to do the same with Britain - otherwise you need to explain why.
This thread is about the death of bin Laden and the method of bringing that about - you really cannot spin this one into 'thread drift.' The entry into sovereign territory by foregn troops is very much an issue here and is part of everybody's input - why not give us yours?   
"particularly disgusting way please."
Your 'cultural link to Pakistani paedophilia' is on record on the 'Muslim prejudice' thread for all to see - get it removed if it's an embarrassment.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 11 - 04:07 AM

"Your 'cultural link to Pakistani paedophilia' is on record"
Lie.
I knew nothing of the culture.
I reported the view, expressed separately by prominent figures, including Pakistanis, that their marriage customs led a small minority into illegal activities.
It did not come from me at all.

You use lies to discredit and undermine me.

On this issue, I said I could not object to an incursion if it was legal and justified.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 06 May 11 - 04:07 AM

"nasty little neocon writer"

Douglas Murray. In fact he seemed to think that we shouldn't *ever* bother with war crimes trials at-all (such as those we had for the Nazis), because they're too much hassle. The implication being that we should summarily execute all such criminals, because it's easier to do so than bothering with involving the justice system.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 May 11 - 05:19 AM

Indeed did he not go further and suggest that the determination of their legal guilt was irrelevant and that it was best to murder suspects on the basis of suspicion?

I was guite surprised that on-one on the panel responded to the suggestion that torture was useful with the three words "Salem Witch Trials" - or the two "Witchfinder General".


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 06 May 11 - 05:43 AM

"the determination of their legal guilt was irrelevant and that it was best to murder suspects on the basis of suspicion?"

Did he say that? Well there's an interesting notion. Looking forward to the reaction on the day when a team of Iraqui troops swoop in unannounced and summarily dispatch of Bush & Blair for their war crimes in a similarly hassle-free fashion.

The pithy last word by Iannucci recounting the US statement is worth reprising:
"The world is a safer place now that Osama Bin Laden is dead,
and we must fully expect a terrorist attack."


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 11 - 06:31 AM

It got a laugh, but it makes perfect sense.
In the long term, the world is safer, but planned attacks might be brought forward increasing the immediate threat.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 06 May 11 - 07:52 AM

Good link, Charley.

But the media rarely discuss the morality of anything. If it feels good, do it! Especially if we get paid!

Nevertheless, the President and the SEALs did what they had to, as expeditiously as was humanly possible in a house filled with people.

That fact is recognized by every rational person in the U.S., Pakistan, and everywhere else.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: bobad
Date: 06 May 11 - 07:55 AM

"That fact is recognized by every rational person in the U.S., Pakistan, and everywhere else."

Nice!


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 11 - 08:10 AM

"On this issue, I said I could not object to an incursion if it was legal and justified."
At long last - then you would be prepared to allow a country with a bad human rights record to send armed troops into Britain to carry out an assassination, unannounced and uninvited - is that right?
That wasn't hard - was it, though not really surprising that you took so long to confess?
Whether this action was 'legal' remains yet to be decided, but the world certainly is not a safer place.
From an article by John Walters in this morning's Irish Times:
"In the long term, the world is safer"
From John Walters' column in the Irish Times this morning:
"Al -Qaeda is no a hierarchical movement, more a viral thought process - to call bin Laden a leader is like suggesting that the internet has a leader. To kill the man widely associated with Al-Qaeda's most spectacular operations may satisfy desires for vengeance and retribution, but it will not weaken the "movement" which moves without central guidance. On the contrary, it risks offering an untimely and gratuitous provocation which may spark a global re-ignition of anti-western sentiment".
If Walters is right, and there's no reason to suppose he's not, far from the world being a safer place, this will have proveed little more than an inneffectual prod at the hornets' nest.
Might have been different if America had sought support for its action beforehand, especially from the country concerned - but what are enemies for - if not making them.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 11 - 08:21 AM

"That wasn't hard - was it, though not really surprising that you took so long to confess?"
I stated that answer on 05 May 11 - 02:16 PM .

It is a matter of opinion if the world is safer, but your man is in a minority I think.

Will you stop using that lie now Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 06 May 11 - 08:29 AM

Update on some of the (to be expected no doubt) recent reaction on the streets of Pakistan:

"About 1,500 Islamists demonstrated against bin Laden's killing, saying more figures like him would arise to wage holy war against the United States. [...]
"Jihad (holy war) against America will not stop with the death of Osama," Fazal Mohammad Baraich, a cleric, said amid shouts of "Down with America" at a demonstration near the city of Quetta, capital of Baluchistan province in the southwest.
"Osama bin Laden is a shaheed (martyr). The blood of Osama will give birth to thousands of other Osamas."
Some protesters burned American flags."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/06/us-binladen-pakistan-protest-idUSTRE74516H20110506


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 06 May 11 - 08:37 AM

A billion didn't demonstrate. Good news there.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 11 - 08:49 AM

Lighter is right.
There were many more and bigger demos when an obscure pastor from a little country church burned one koran.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 06 May 11 - 09:10 AM

Meanwhile, police in Liverpool are still hunting three suspected terrorists: Bin Drinkin, Bin Fightin and Bin Robbin. A fourth suspect, Bin Workin, is thought to be fictitious.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 11 - 10:00 AM

"It is a matter of opinion if the world is safer, but your man is in a minority I think."
Yeah - but your opinion doesn't count any more - you've finally admitted you're prepared to turn your country over to soldiers from a state that uss torture and imprisonment without trial- used to b known as Quislings
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 11 - 10:20 AM

No, my opinion does not count, compared to statesmen and security experts.

Was Pakistan turned over to soldiers from a state that uses torture and imprisonment without trial?

I heard it was a 40 minute incursion by 25 soldiers, but I don't get The Irish Times.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 06 May 11 - 10:26 AM

Elsewhere, filmmaker Michael Moore - anti-matter replica of Donald Trump - told CNN last night he's not sure Bin Laden's dead because governments can lie.

More from Mike: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110506/people_nm/us_michaelmoore_1


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 11 - 10:27 AM

"No, my opinion does not count, compared to statesmen and security experts."
Oh dear - here we go again, hiding behind selected 'experts'.
"Was Pakistan turned over to soldiers from a state that uses torture and imprisonment without trial?"
Pakistan was not consulted - the American's (th ones that use torture and imprisonment without trial) went in without permission or even consultation - you've just given th green light for the same to happen to Britain.
"I heard it was a 40 minute incursion by 25 soldiers"
Didn't know there was a time limit on incursions.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 06 May 11 - 10:52 AM

//From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 06 May 11 - 08:37 AM
A billion didn't demonstrate. Good news there.//

Yes, I agree.
Though the quotes I posted were the ones which seemed most pertinent to some of the discussion below:

"Osama bin Laden is a shaheed (martyr). The blood of Osama will give birth to thousands of other Osamas."

Have the US cut off the head of a Dragon, or the head of a Hydra? We'll have to wait and see no doubt. And while I have no real opinion on that, the timing of this incident does seem problematic to me both in light of frayed relations between the US and Pakistan, and also in light of the so-called Arab Spring currently breaking out across many states.

PS: as a separate note, Don Firth below made a lengthy post castigating comments coming from "Merrie Olde England". In response to that post, I'd like to say that while I agree with him that the UK has a poor track record of imperialist interventions all over the shop (no, I'm not personally proud of much of our history), if he believes that anyone here who has voiced concerns over this incident would be whooping for joy had it been a UK military initiative instead, then he can rest assured that he is most sorely mistaken.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 11 - 11:11 AM

Jim, we have thousands of US service men and women here all the time!
I used to train with them back in the Cold War.
We were very grateful to have them with us in those dark days.
All of which means nothing to you.
Marxist?
Trot?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 06 May 11 - 11:21 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13313201


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 May 11 - 11:35 AM

Again, correct me if I'm wrong Keith, but the US servicemen stationed in the UK are here with official permission.

Even those whose presence is transient as they indulge in "rendition" (translation, illegal kidnapping of suspects for torture) are here with the permission of our craven governments. It is frankly quite shameful that our government is complicit in that activity.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 May 11 - 12:42 PM

I would really be interested in seeing if one of the resident Yank-bashers could address my previous question. That would be: can you provide a practical scenario for the peaceful capture of Osama which does not violate what you see as a "rule of law"?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 06 May 11 - 01:01 PM

Artbrooks: "resident Yank-bashers"

Criticism of US military activity (at home and abroad) seems to be something of a sore point on this thread, though I'm uncertain as to why.

If actions of the British govt. is criticised, I don't feel personally affronted because I don't conflate ME with either current - or indeed historic - actions of the British govt.

If I were a "yank basher" I'd be calling you all "lard-arsed burger-stuffing morons" (or whatever your favourite "yank bashing" stereotype is), not merely questioning US foreign policy - which of course, has international consequences which is why it is also of some interest to those of us outside of the US.

I do think there was a "redneck" reference below somewhere however, and to be clear, I don't think such terms are particularly constructive in discussions such as this.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: BanjoRay
Date: 06 May 11 - 01:13 PM

I understand Elton John has recorded a song about Osama Bin Laden. It's called Sandals In The Bin.

Ducks and runs....


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 May 11 - 01:21 PM

Lively, is that an answer to my question?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 06 May 11 - 01:32 PM

"Lively, is that an answer to my question?"

No, as I'm not a "yank basher", your question was not addressed to me. However as it was posted on a public form, as someone interested in this topic, I am free to respond as I see fit.

The use of your term "yank basher", appears to imply that ANY concern voiced over US military actions such as this one, is a personal attack on ALL American citizens.

As such I suggest that some posters here, try to identify the distinction between themselves as sovereign individuals and their activities, and the activities of the state (which they may, or may not, individually sanction).


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 06 May 11 - 01:36 PM

Artbrooks, I'd like to apologise for the seeming terseness of my comments in response to your post. There has been some personal hostility displayed on this thread (disgustingly sexual in fact). I think perhaps it has left me feeling a little defensive...


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 11 - 02:03 PM

Fighters are routinely killed, without chance to surrender, by drone strikes.
Would that have been preferred?
No risk to US troops, but all the civilians and children in the compound would have been killed.

(Law of armed conflict states that aircraft are not required to accept surrenders)


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 May 11 - 02:04 PM

No apology needed - this is, after all, a friendly forum in which we are all free to express opinions.

And let me rephrase my question, since it may appear that it some readers believe it was only addressed to a limited audience. There have been a lot of comments made regarding the idea that the attack on the Obama compound in Pakistan and his death during this raid was illegal. Without getting into the question of what law or laws were violated, I would like to know if anyone can provide a practical scenario for the peaceful capture of Osama, under the circumstances thus far on record, which does not violate what you see as a "rule of law"?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 11 - 02:22 PM

Richard, I believe there are a number of American forces in Pakistan too.
So, 25 extra popped in for 40 minutes, and while there removed the leader of a group that has been terrorising them for years and killed 30 000 of their people.

No wonder they are not very cross!
The only question is why Jim IS so cross.

Answer.
Because it was an American success, and an enemy of the West was removed.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 May 11 - 02:23 PM

The rule of law is not a matter of convenience.

And I am far from clear how a drone attack could have been proper.

An aerial attack on enemy forces in territory they hold or occupy is one thing - as might well a "hot pursuit" attack be, but an aerial attack on a compound in a town in an allied territory would surely be quite another.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 11 - 02:26 PM

Artbrooks, they could have asked the Pakistan military to go in and arrest him.
Of course, he would have escaped.
Again!

That would have been the preferred outcome for some here.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 11 - 02:28 PM

Richard, drone attacks on targets inside Pakistan happen all the time.
There was one yesterday.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 06 May 11 - 02:40 PM

Thanks for your cordially rephrased question artbrooks, much appreciated.

"a practical scenario for the peaceful capture of Osama, under the circumstances thus far on record, which does not violate what you see as a "rule of law"?"

While I have no decided opinions on much of this incident, for me the question would be more "under the circumstances of such poor current US/Pakistan relations and ongoing major political upheaval among Arab nations, would it have been a more "practical scenario" to 'let sleeping dogs lie'? Albeit while keeping them under surveillance. Otherwise, I'm no military expert. However I feel more comfortable when "the rule of law" is followed rather than dubious tactics. As others have said, what is sauce for the Goose is sauce for the Gander. An international military president has been set here, one which the US (and the rest of us) may come to regret - hopefully not - in time.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 May 11 - 02:43 PM

Richard Bridge-to-Stupidity: "The rule of law is not a matter of convenience."

Neither is WAR...especially when one side would just as soon as annihilate anyone who had anything to do with drafting it, or obeying it!

Wake up, and welcome to reality....even when it's NOT so 'convenient'!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 06 May 11 - 02:43 PM

"An international military president"

What a typo! Make that "precendent" :)


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 May 11 - 02:51 PM

"There are still unofficial flights going through Shannon, about half-an-hour's drive from here, unchecked by the Irish authorities, taking uncharged prisoners to god-knows-where to have god-knows-what done to them - it is believed on a weekly basis."

Jim, how do you know that these "still unofficial flights" going through the Shannon airport are transporting uncharged prisoners for the purpose of "special rendition?" Do they have some special insignia that identifies them as such? I'm sorry, but I don't think the CIA is quite that stupid. So. How do you know?

"The arrest of bin Laden, a trial and sentence would have been 100 times more impressive to the rest of the world that the bloody act of vengeance which took place, and would not have caused the antagonism that has arisen over the hasty execution of a murderous terrorist."

This, as I understand it, was considered, but what was also considered was the likelihood of hostage-taking during the incarceration and trial period, along with threats of massive terrorist attacks if bin Laden was found guilty. The people who planned this operation are not as bloodthirsty and stupid as you apparently prefer to think.

And as to that "bloody act of vengeance," as you choose to characterize it. There are vast numbers of people in the world, most especially the families of the innocent people murdered by terrorist attacks masterminded by bin Laden who characterize it as an "act of justice." You show a great deal of sympathy for the murderer and no regard whatsoever for his victims and their families.

Even according to Sharia Law, bin Laden deserved his fate. In fact, he had long since had a Fatwa issued against him. (I heard that on the radio this morning in an interview with an Imam.)

". . . a country with a bad human rights record. . . ."

That is a really ignorant statement, Jim. If you really believe that, you just haven't been paying attention. One of the major thrusts of both the domestic and foreign policies of the United States has been toward the principle stated in the very opening sentence of the U. S. Constitution about "inalienable rights." And the idea that these inalienable rights belong to everyone, whether the government they live under recognizes them or not.

But those "inalienable rights" do not include a "right to commit mass murder on innocent noncombatants."

". . . if America had sought support for its action beforehand, especially from the country concerned. . . ."

America did. The Pakistani government had offered full cooperation in the search for bin Laden. Whether they actually were cooperating is another question, but considering the fact that they offered this cooperation, they are hardly in a position to protest.

AND—you seem to be making the assumption that locating bin Laden required that the U.S. involved torture. What is your evidence for this?

There are a variety of methods by which he could be located that would not involve anything of this nature. Some of which are pretty exotic and don't infringe on anyone's rights.

"Yank bashing." That about sums it up.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 May 11 - 02:56 PM

Lively: "An international military precedent has been set here, one which the US (and the rest of us) may come to regret - hopefully not - in time."

That one, I give you.
Frankly, If you've noticed by the tone of many other threads on Mudcat, there are a great deal of people in our countries, who feel that the administrations in collusion with the international bankers are at war with the common citizenry, of us all. Let's all hope and pray that sanity may eventually rule the day..because as of this moment, it's not too much in the forefront!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 06 May 11 - 03:22 PM

"That one, I give you."

That's nice of you.

Could I please have an apology for those rather graphic sexually spiked insults you responded to me with last time, please? I found them exceedingly offensive. I'm not proud of the way I reacted either BTW..

As for a conspiracy of Bankers dedicated bringing about The Apocalypse or whatever. I don't really take too much notice of such things, but I do hope they feel better soon. I hear the sea air is a great restorative.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 May 11 - 03:27 PM

Lively: "Could I please have an apology for those rather graphic sexually spiked insults you responded to me with last time, please?"

Oh, I thought I was complimenting you! (wink)

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 06 May 11 - 03:45 PM

"Oh, I thought I was complimenting you! (wink)"

Ahh, OK thank you - I accept your apology...


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 May 11 - 04:23 PM

Lively: "Ahh, OK thank you - I accept your apology... "

Yeah...up until then, I wasn't quite sure if you knew much about the subject!

Waving!

gfS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Taconicus
Date: 06 May 11 - 04:26 PM

Andrew E. wrote:
"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr.


According to Snopes.com, that's a bogus quotation.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 11 - 04:27 PM

"Jim, we have thousands of US service men and women here all the time!"
Are you claimin that torture and imprisonment without trial doesn't happen.
I have no doubt that the troops are their to do their duty but they are there carrying out the policy of a government that has no qualms in using the methods I have described, which is why, of course, you have refused to comment on it.
"Jim, how do you know that these "still unofficial flights"
Established as a fact years ago Don - by an Irish govenment that not only has refused to inspect the planes, as they have a right to do, but who have said they were not prepared to interfere in the war against terrorism.
It provoked a huge row here over the breach of Ireland's policy of neutrality. Pretty well a known and all but admitted fact - sorry.
"This, as I understand it, was considered,"
As the assassination (this is what it was) took place on foreign soil, every effort should have been made to involve the government of that country. The only other nation that takes such action as a matter of course is Israel, and their name is pretty well shit internationally - if that's the reputation you want.....!
This is an extremely sensitive situation which involves us all and needs to be dealt with sensitively - do you think it has been?
"That is a really ignorant statement"
Then you believe the US isn't using torture, holding detainees without trial, hasn't poured napalm on peasants, attempted to starve them by poisoniing their food with Agent Orange, helped overthrow inconvenient governments, bankrolled some of the world's monsters.....?
"AND—you seem to be making the assumption that locating bin Laden required that the U.S. involved torture"
I'm assuming nothing of he sort - it appeared in our press yesterday that one of your senators has stated that as it has proved proved successful in this case, it should be continued as routine policy - think I still have the details somewhere, if not, yesterday's Irish Times has the story.
You need to understand that Ireland is one of the great friends of the US - historical reasons - yet even here there is a great deal of mixed feeling on how the US have behaved in this matter.
I wonder how you would have reacted if a helicopter load of say French troops had landed in your back garden unannounced and started shooting te place up - a little less than a bunch of flowers and the offer of a drink, wouldn't you say?
Please don't hide behind the pathetic 'Yank bashing' - your reputation goes before you.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Taconicus
Date: 06 May 11 - 04:36 PM

A couple of points in defense of Pakistan:

1. I understand that the Pakistani government has arrested some 40 people in Abbottabad (is that where Bud Abbott came from?) for helping to hide and protect Osama bin Laden. Although now I can't find the article – can anyone confirm this?

2. Pakistan makes great sheets and reasonable prices. The best sheets I have remade in Pakistan. I bought another made-in-Pakistan set of sheets just yesterday at Target, only $19.95.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 May 11 - 04:37 PM

Well, from the screed just above, I can see that any further discussion will be unproductive. Assumptions based on personal bias.

Not that I won't necessarily be back if the spirit moves me.

"Yank-bashing" is sure what it sounds like to me. My reputation goes before me? Sorry, Jim, but look who's talking!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Taconicus
Date: 06 May 11 - 04:39 PM

Bah, dang dictation software…

and reasonable = at reasonable
remade = were made

Meh.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 06 May 11 - 04:42 PM

Don Firth: "AND—you seem to be making the assumption that locating bin Laden required that the U.S. involved torture"

Jim Carroll: "I'm assuming nothing of the sort - it appeared in our press yesterday that one of your senators has stated that as it has proved proved successful in this case, it should be continued as routine policy"

It was also mentioned on BBC Question Time last night. I think it's generally a well accepted fact that the US used torture to determine Bin Laden's whereabouts and that some are now arguing in favour of the US's continued use of torture.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: bobad
Date: 06 May 11 - 04:46 PM

Oh come on now, it's not torture it's "enhanced interrogation techniques". Get it straight will you.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 May 11 - 04:51 PM

bobad: "Oh come on now, it's not torture it's "enhanced interrogation techniques". Get it straight will you."

Well, that that old 'politically correct' bullshit for ya!

Them there 'libbies' insist on it!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 May 11 - 05:04 PM

This just in: The rift between the U.S. and Pakistan just got bigger, and more serious, with ultimatums and saber rattling.
I guess we can surmise who's who in the zoo...

gotta go..and catch up on the 'news'(?)

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 06 May 11 - 05:06 PM

""enhanced interrogation techniques". Get it straight will you."

'Enhanced' sounds so, well elegant Bobad! Nothing like the awful nasty crass things being implied here.

Surely you're describing techniques belonging to those 'exotic' ladies we are used to seeing in James Bond films?

I know their 'enhanced' techniques are inevitably foiled by suave old Bond - but of course he was something of a one off.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Taconicus
Date: 06 May 11 - 05:26 PM

It was waterboarding, that's what it was and that's what they're arguing about. Whether you call it "torture" just depends on which side of the argument you're on.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 May 11 - 07:53 PM

I would guess that the senators who are claiming that waterboarding or other harsh interrogation techniques led to - or didn't lead to - Osama's capture know about as much about it as anyone here...which is to say, nothing. The most credible comment I've heard is that his location was deduced by putting a number of very small pieces together over several years.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 May 11 - 10:42 PM

I'm wondering if the people who are saying that the ""enhanced interrogation techniques" worked and helped find Bin Laden - are the same people who WANT it to work and support it's usage.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: andrew e
Date: 06 May 11 - 11:12 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Donuel
Date: 07 May 11 - 12:42 AM

The prior administration does deserve all the debt and credit for killing bin Laden

Listen up.

It is as large and oily as the nose on your face that Dick Cheney is instrumental in killing bin Laden.
First he showed America and the world the technique of shooting old men in the face at close range.
Second, torture clearly defeated bin Laden. Did you know that Ossama was in the same room as his wife and a couple toddlers for 6 years and never went out of the house !?
When the commandos showed up he said "Just shoot me".

All this is behind us now. It has gone full circle.
All the conspiracy nuts are even at peace. Since they thought bin Laden is not really dead and that it was really George Bush who did 9-11 by implosion to distract attention from Hawaii where CIA operatives were planting photoshopped birth certificates so that a Kenyan guy named Obama could come to power to kill the phoney bin Laden who Bush blamed for blowing up the WTC in a phoney act of terrorism.

With the exception of a couple dozen Pakistani nukes and several small nukes that they have lost the pass words to make them explode, we can all take a collective sigh of relief.

As long as we don't let the Supreme Court elect another D student spoiled rich kid with a daddy complex to the white house, we should
do OK.
















Bunker entrance
_
__
____
______
________
H===========
H
H
H
H===========
H
H
H
HH===========
H
H mmmmMmMMmmm
H
H___H----H___    A loud and droning hum of the ventillation system reverberates deep underground in the situation room where Obama speaks plainly asking each advisor their opinion.
Barak asks quetly, "What do you say we get out of Afghanistan?"
Hillary says "Yes we can".
Petraus says "its to soon to change"
Pannetta says "Yeah man, thats a good idea.
Barack: "Yeman? really? I think its a good idea too. OK lets go into Yeman next ."
Panetta: "Sir is this a joke like your 'two jihadists walk into a bar' story?"
Barak: No, I'm serious, but this time were are going to give George W Bush and Dick Cheney full credit from the git go."
Petraus: "Sending them both to Gitmo has been a secret wish of mine for the last eight years."
Barak: "Thanks everyone lets break for lunch and get this plan started ASAP."


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Donuel
Date: 07 May 11 - 12:58 AM

I say spike the football, do a victory lap, make the very special mini series...

IF we can't have a real picture of bin Laden's dead head, I say we issue a postage stamp of a wounded bin Laden and postmark the shit out of his face for the next year.

Or maybe casting a bust of bin Laden with all the gory wounds and sell them as lawn ornaments.

I think the politically correct restraint has left a deep seated need to have one last swipe at the fucker.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 11 - 02:51 AM

"Yank-bashing" is sure what it sounds like to me"
One way out Don - but you really need to look in the mirror sometime.
Nobody here has a good word to say about bin Laden and his bunch of fanatics - we all wanted justice - for 9-11, for London, and for every act of terror they've committed, but the operative word is justice - not vengeance.
You blew it - you executed your man without taking him through due process, you killed a bystander and you invaded the sovereign territory of another nation (needlessly) to do it. In that way you were, and are seen by many as little different from them, especially with your unenviable track record. Almost the first comment in the press here was of the jingoisticly triumphalist chanting mobs on the streets of New York and Washington.
You'll get your support from brown-noses like Keith, who will happily bare their country's arse for whatever you choose to do, but you'll not get it from where it counts, which is what will be needed if our kids are to have a future where they can live in peace - you don't shoot and bomb religious fanatics into submission - that's the way to give them something to die for.
You're right - there is a great deal of anti-Americanism in all this - it's the self-flagellation kind, rising directly from your own behaviour.
Jim Carroll
BTW - it was Dick Cheyney who has called for the continued use of torture.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 11 - 03:09 AM

" you executed your man without taking him through due process"

You know this Jim?
How?
Were they in fear of their lives possibly?

", you killed a bystander"


An extraordinarily low number of civilian casualties for such an operation.
There were about twenty people in that compound.

"and you invaded the sovereign territory of another nation"

Yes but only for fourty minutes by 25 blokes.
And they did them a massive favour while there.
No one is complaining and it was legal.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 11 - 04:40 AM

"No one is complaining and it was legal. "
Yes they are, and the legality remains to be seen - your 40 minutes is just bloody nonsense - it wouldn't make any difference if it had been 40 seconds and one soldier - they belligerantly sent troops into a country to carry out an assassination when there was no need for them to do so.
Not only did they kill a bystander in the process, the importance of which you have snopaked out (collateral damage) but they incurred the animosity of many countries, which will have repercussions on the fight against terrorism ("The Yanks are at it again")
In the end it is not the point. Appeasers like yourself can sell your or anybody's country to the highest bidder on the grounds of legality if you want - the question being discussed here is was the US action the best course to follow - it wasn't and it is likely to backfire on all of us - it is about time they cleaned up their act, for all of our sakes.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 11 - 04:54 AM

"they incurred the animosity of many countries"

Which countries Jim?
Give us a short list of the major ones.

The only ones complaining are you, and other West hating fanatical extremists.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 07 May 11 - 04:57 AM

"No one is complaining and it was legal."

I would say that outside of the US, reactions have been very mixed and less than jubilant. Pakistan in particular has given out some very mixed messages, including threats of "disastrous consequences" if the US were to attempt any more unauthorised unilateral military raids of like kind within Pakistan. Those sound like fighting words to me.

In any event, as to the issue of legality, I believe that question is still open. The UN have requested full disclosure of details pertaining to the raid from the US:

"the norm should be that terrorists be dealt with as criminals, through legal processes of arrest, trial and judicially decided punishment.
Actions taken by States in combating terrorism, especially in high profile cases, set precedents for the way in which the right to life will be treated in future instances.
In respect of the recent use of deadly force against Osama bin Laden, the United States of America should disclose the supporting facts to allow an assessment in terms of international human rights law standards. For instance it will be particularly important to know if the planning of the mission allowed an effort to capture Bin Laden."

http://www.ohchr.org/en/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=10987&LangID=E


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 May 11 - 05:05 AM

Jim, I don't think Keith is an appeaser. He just approves of shooting people. In his world justice comes from the barrel of a gun. Indeed I suspect he'd have rather the UK assassinated ObL as a measure of our virility.

Notice how he sets out no legal justification of drone attacks - merely that they are common.

Don, pretending that waterboarding is not torture is pretty silly. It involves slowly drowning people, letting them cough their lungs up, and doing it again. "Stress positions" are no more justifiable - simply modern variations of the strappado. With torture you can get anyone to say anything. Just think Salem witch trials. You appear to be treating the world like a Stephen Seagal film.

The US does not set a great example for civil rights or the rule of law. Guantanamo bay was established precisely to keep detainees out of any available justice system. Its oppression of its indigenous peoples is worse than anything the UK ever did in Ireland (about which so many USAians wax wroth), and probably as bad as the world's first concentration camps - used by the UK against Boers.

Whether the USA is still involved in rendition is not the point. The fact of rendition is well established. Imagine that you are an innocent man, siezed in your home country, and flown to where you can conveniently be tortured until you admit to something you did not do. Some so seized may be guilty even though their guilt is not established, but a 100% record of accuracy in deciding who to seize and torture is simply inconceivable.


I would also mention that although the US is claiming that its torture regime found ObL they would say that, wouldn't they? I have seen other suggestions that it was the interception of one telephone call "from a trusted lieutenant" that actually enabled the USA to find ObL.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 11 - 06:12 AM

Lively, if you read it in context,"of "disastrous consequences" if the US were to attempt any more unauthorised unilateral military raids of like kind within Pakistan." they were concerned that they might be an unintended engagement.

Richard,that was not a nice thing to say about me, and it is not true.
Wars do sometimes have to be fought.
In war it is accepted that you must kill enemy combatants without warning or due process.
OBL was an enemy combatant.
I find it surprising if he did not have some way of taking some Americans with him.

I am not knowledgeable on the law regarding drone strikes, but they have been happening for years now with no legal challenge.
They are also credited with turning the tide against the insurgency.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 07 May 11 - 06:28 AM

Keith, I agree that the phrase is ambiguous and open to differing interpretations. I haven't seen any clarification of what was precisely meant by it from the source however.

....

An (unrelated) opinion piece from Noam Chomsky on the "planned assassination" of Bin Laden:

"We might ask ourselves how we would be reacting if Iraqi commandos landed at George W. Bush's compound, assassinated him, and dumped his body in the Atlantic."

http://www.guernicamag.com/blog/2652/noam_chomsky_my_reaction_to_os/

While I have much respect for him as a thinker and writer, I imagine feelings about Chomsky will range very widely on this forum.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 11 - 07:09 AM

I have already stated that I will not support the soldiers if they acted unlawfully.
That would be if they ignored a request to surrender.
Remember, their own lives depended on a split second decision.
We are told that his companion, you have to say bravely, rushed at the soldiers.
She clearly did not intend to be taken without a fight.
Is he about to detonate an explosive belt?
If it was your son or daughter in that room, what advice would you give them?

That is what your UN piece was about Lively.
No-one is questioning the legality of the incursion itself.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 11 - 07:12 AM

Lively, that exact phrase, in the context I gave, was used by a Pakistan government official in that BBC programme I linked to.
It comes just before Lubell comes on.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 07 May 11 - 07:34 AM

"I have already stated that I will not support the soldiers if they acted unlawfully.
That would be if they ignored a request to surrender. ...
That is what your UN piece was about Lively."

Yes, that's correct.

I wouldn't advice soldiers on anything of course.
However, considering the differing accounts of the event as initially given by The Whitehouse press office, compared to those later submitted by the Seals themselves, I think it legitimate that the UN request disclosure of further details pertaining to the operation.

Note the text of the UN statement which refers to the planning of the mission rather than it's execution:

"the United States of America should disclose the supporting facts to allow an assessment in terms of international human rights law standards. For instance it will be particularly important to know if the planning of the mission allowed an effort to capture Bin Laden."

If it were to unfold that this was in fact a planned assassination, as some indeed suspect, then it's not merely soldiers who acted unlawfully.

Many on this thread (from your statements, clearly you are not among them) clearly find issues of lawfulness or otherwise, to be an irrelivancy in this matter. I don't agree with such a position.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 07 May 11 - 07:40 AM

"Lively, that exact phrase, in the context I gave, was used by a Pakistan government official in that BBC programme I linked to."

Thank you, I'll have to take a look later.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 11 - 07:41 AM

Thanks for that endorsement Lively.
It would have been legal to make an attempt on his life.
It is illegal to order soldiers to kill a prisoner.
If such an order was given, it would not have been on the record, and we shall never know.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 May 11 - 08:02 AM

Sailors, actually.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 07 May 11 - 09:09 AM

One of CNN's regular legal commentators (in other words, not someone specially selected to address this case) says that it is legal under international law to seize a suspect like Bin Laden in another country if it can be shown that that country "is unable or unwilling" to extradite him or otherwise bring him to justice.

She suggested that the fact that Bin Laden had been living for years less than a mile from a military installation while Pakistan knew he was wanted internationally was prima facie evidence that Pakistan was unwilling or unable to deal with him.

I suppose that questions may still be raised (in theory) about how many of the shots actually fired by the Americans were "legal" or "illegal," but international law would seem to have been observed. As it is never observed by Al Qaida.

There is also the moral principle of choosing the lesser of two evils: invade one house in Pakistan for forty minutes or let Bin Laden plot ten thousand more deaths.

As far as I'm concerned, case closed.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 11 - 09:14 AM

"There is also the moral principle of choosing the lesser of two evils: invade one house in Pakistan for forty minutes or let Bin Laden plot ten thousand more deaths."
Indeed Lighter.
Who will disagree?
Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: bobad
Date: 07 May 11 - 09:35 AM

The only people I see disagreeing are this sites usual malcontents and other terrorists like Hamas that they side with.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 07 May 11 - 09:42 AM

"the moral principle of choosing the lesser of two evils"

As has already been discussed here, I suppose that depends on what you consider the "two evils" to actually be? Bin Laden is already being described as "Obi Wan Bin Laden" online for example, or in other words, more powerful dead than alive.

Here are some considered comments on the possible long term fallout of this incident and the dangerous potential consequences of a resultant "redirection of the Arab spring":

Ed Husain, Senior Fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, says that Osama bin Laden is more valuable to al-Qaeda dead than alive.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 11 - 09:59 AM

From Livlely's link, 1m 20secs in.
"I am not arguing for a moment that he should not have been killed.
Of course he should have been killed."


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 07 May 11 - 10:13 AM

"I am not arguing for a moment that he should not have been killed.
Of course he should have been killed."

Yes, of course the speaker there wasn't responding to the question of a supposed moral case involving "the lesser of two evils" - I was.

The "moral case" Lighter put forward based on "the lesser of two evils", was founded on the premise that Bin Laden would be a more dangerous figure alive than dead - others however - such as the speaker in that clip, argue differently. I think it's a valid point of view.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: bobad
Date: 07 May 11 - 10:17 AM

That's all just speculation for now, remove the tumour first and deal with any potential complications as they arise.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 11 - 10:29 AM

Jim, I hope you are not still compiling that list.
I only asked for a short list of the major countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 07 May 11 - 10:42 AM

It's a valid point of view, lively, but it's a question that could (and can) never be answered. Who knows what might have happened? Bin Laden could even have died of a sudden heart attack minutes before the raiders got there. That wouldn't mean they shouldn't have gone. Or whether Bin Laden's natural death, saving him (presumably by God's will) from his enemies, would have inspired his followers even more.

Decisions for action have to be based on the known or probable rather than on the completely unknown or unknowable.

Because the world is as it is and humans are fallible, sometimes those decisions are wrong. This one, I believe, was right.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 May 11 - 11:55 AM

Fuck him..he's dead..get over it!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Donuel
Date: 07 May 11 - 11:57 AM

Jim, there are plenty of people who complain about the legality.
I whole hearteldy accept my humanity and remain homest about the hypocrisy of being a blood thirsty pacifist. The most Chrstian cheek turning enemy loving person is not a fanatic in certain circumstances. Murdering a genocidal rich fanatic is one of those cases where humanity is tested and left wanting. I know this is no more profound than saying "it is what it is" but in this world of food chains that is the way it is.

Nature makes mistakes, people make mistakes and I wager even bacteria makes mistakes.

The dilemma of enforcing our law outside our border with or without the UN or International courts is settled by one factor. Might makes right. This was evidenced when a Belgian COurt was forced to back down from thier indictment and arrest warrent for Dick Cheney and Rumsfeld. Whatever they were threatened with, worked.



What has the CIA learned from Usama's villa and personal effects?
He used American products like Vasoline.
Planned rail and bridge attacks.
Was more a prisoner of Pakistan than a guest.
Was not very computer savvy.
When it came to movies he was a big VIn Diesel Fast and Furious fan.




What we have learned that is surprising is that Usama bin Laden, one of 55 children of a common father slept on a cheap water bed and had over a dozen pot plants growing in a room off his bedroom.
Imagine if he had been captured and some of the charges at his indictment in his Gitmo tribunal, included growing pot, bigamy, aiding the deliquency of minors, sodomy, conspiracy to commit murder, interferring with the business of Wall St,


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: gnu
Date: 07 May 11 - 01:08 PM

He's on video tape... turn on your TV news.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 11 - 01:15 PM

"Jim, I hope you are not still compiling that list."
Will be ready when you give us your thoughts about the US use of torture and imprisonment without trial, and the wisdom of giving free access to your country to such a nation
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 07 May 11 - 01:28 PM

"Who knows what might have happened? ... whether Bin Laden's natural death, saving him (presumably by God's will) from his enemies, would have inspired his followers even more.
Decisions for action have to be based on the known or probable ... sometimes those decisions are wrong. This one, I believe, was right."

Lighter, well I think I may differ with you there somewhat.
As to the "known or probable", well Obama himself made a statement a few years ago (I can't summon the quotes offhand) amounting to a promise that Bin Laden would never be made a martyr on his watch.

Of course Obama was clearly aware of the power of martyrdom and the serious danger implied by making Bin Laden a martyr to the cause of extreme Islamists. Martyrs are those who sacrifice themselves for their cause - not old men who die peacefully in their sleep, and arguably there's no better death for a wannabe martyr than getting "executed in cold blood" (as it has been represented by some) by one's enemy during a controversial midnight raid.

That said, I respect your view and while I don't know any better than you what the outcome of this will be, I am always happy to exchange civilly expressed differences of opinion..


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 11 - 01:35 PM

Wait no longer Jim!
I have already given my opinion on a US incursion into Britain, and the other matter is outside the scope of this thread.
I will oblige as soon as you reopen one of the many threads on the subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 May 11 - 02:25 PM

"Don, pretending that waterboarding is not torture is pretty silly."

You, too, Richard?

Will you people stop trying to put words in my mouth? PTUI!! I am NOT "pretending" that waterboarding is not torture. I am unalterably opposed to any form of torture no matter who does it, and I deeply resent your and Jim's accusations that I condone it.

You both seem to be assuming that the information that led to locating bin Laden came solely from torture, knowing really nothing about the intelligence processes that were actually used. Never even took into account the detail and accuracy available from spy satellites, for one thing. Capable of identifying the make and model of an automobile from 200 miles up, for example—AND often, of recognizing people. And that was one of their capabilities twenty years ago. I suspect they've made substantial advances since. Somewhat less high-tech, perhaps, are overflights with drones, which, believe me, have been on the prowl for some time, and are NOT solely used for "killing civilians," as you keep accusing American forces of using them for. And remember--American forces are not the ONLY ones there! You conveniently forget that this has been a joint operation from the start.

". . . although the US is claiming that its torture regime found ObL. . . ."

REALLY?   Who said THAT? Dick Cheney? And you accept the idea that people like that speak for the entire American citizenry?

Now, I'm fully aware that there are a lot of very iffy issues about tracking down bin Laden, and what might ultimately grow out of it, and there will be a lot of dissections and investigations of it in the future—done by American jurists, and, of course, by politicians of various stripes. That's inevitable.

But your knee-jerk idea that Americans in general, or me personally, totally approve of the whole operation, especially the possibility of the use of (and call it what it is!) torture, are insulting, offensive, holier-than-thou, and blatant evidence of rank prejudice.

SHAME!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 May 11 - 04:30 PM

Much of the mess that some folks are blaming "America" for started with an administration that lost the popular vote by a close margin, but through the machinations of a corrupt election system in the State of Florida (where George W. Bush's brother was Governor) and a conservative-biased Supreme Court, was put into office anyway.

From Truthout:
On Sunday, May 1, President Obama stated "al-Qaeda's leader and symbol" Osama bin Laden had been killed: "Tonight, I can report to the American people and the world that the United States has conducted an operation that killed Osama bin Laden." Less than 24 hours after President Obama made his announcement, Sarah Palin, in a speech at Colorado Christian University, said, "We thank President [George W.] Bush for having made the right calls to set up this victory." She never mentioned President Obama. The conservative Washington Times newspaper wrote, "Bin Laden's death is more Mr. Bush's victory than Mr. Obama's because American forces wouldn't even be fighting in South Asia had Democratic doves had their way." The National Review Online wrote, "Mr. Obama might have noted that this work began under President Bush, but as usual he did not."

If conservatives want to give former president Bush the credit for the capture of bin Laden, they must also ensure that he take the responsibility for the misinformation and disinformation that led us into two protracted military misadventures. Every single excuse that Cheney/Bush provided to the American people for invading Afghanistan and Iraq proved to be false.

•   The 9/11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia, not Afghanistan.
•   No weapons of mass destruction (WMDs) were found in Iraq.
•   No relationship between Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden tied Hussein to 9/11.
•   No attempt from Saddam to purchase "yellow cake" uranium from Niger was ever documented.

According to Iraq on the Record, a report prepared for Rep. Henry Waxman (D-California) in 2004, prior to the war in Iraq, Bush, Vice President Richard Cheney, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of State Colin Powell and National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice, "made misleading statements about the threat posed by Iraq in 125 public appearances consisting of 40 speeches, 26 press conferences and briefings, 53 interviews, 4 written statements, and 2 congressional testimonies. The report ... identifies 237 specific misleading statements ... Most of the statements ... were misleading because they expressed certainty where none existed or failed to acknowledge the doubts of intelligence officials. Ten of the statements were simply false." Bush took action, but it was based upon the false narrative that his administration created.

If conservatives want to give Bush the credit for the capture of bin Laden, why didn't they take him in 2001, just ten weeks after 9/11? In July of 2009, 60 Minutes reported that in November 2001, Delta Force troops, "Using radio intercepts and other intelligence, the CIA pinpointed bin Laden in the mountains near the border of Pakistan. According to a Delta commander being interviewed, "We're about 2,000 meters away from where we think bin Laden's at still ... bin Laden was on the radio. The CIA, Delta and their Afghan allies were listening." They failed to even attempt to engage him. Their plans of attack were never approved. "How often does Delta come up with a tactical plan that's disapproved by higher headquarters?" Pelley from 60 Minutes asks. "In my experience, said a former Delta commander, in my five years at Delta, never before." They either have to take credit or responsibility.

Conservatives can't have their cake and eat it, too.
This is the same administration that authorized such things as "waterboarding" and "enhanced interrogation" (euphemisms for torture), and "extraordinary rendition," so they wouldn't have to watch.

No matter what one may think of the Obama administration, it beats the hell out of the alternative.

Put the onus where it belongs!! Barack Obama got stuck with the thankless task of trying to cleam up the septic tank that the Bush/Cheney administration dumped on the nation and the world.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 May 11 - 04:44 PM

Well, it looks like our resident America-bashers are back at it. Perhaps they would have liked it if they would have asked 'permission' from the corrupt U.N. before they carried out a top secret mission..but then, going to the VERY corrupt U.N., would for sure, screwed up the element of surprise, because, for a price, the info would have gotten to the Pakistanis, and eventually to OBL...where he could have made an escape, to frolic in the Islam dream world, of killing everything innocent, that doesn't subscribe to one sect's or another sect's bullshit1 Now that doesn't bother our resident 'intellectuals' who can't reason past their noses..I mean, if you're are going to plan a secret attack, why not tell the whole world, before you do it??..Even though, then President Bush did just that!..which I pointed out, but the 'wonder-geniuses' can't seem to register that...speaking of which, some operations are secret..like 'Operation Overlord'...which had you have been alive, I'm sure you would have wanted Roosevelt, Eisenhower, and Churchill, to get your fucking approval....but then, maybe you're just pissed off, because you'd rather be speaking German, hating the U.S. and killing Jews!!..which happens to be consistent with the sentiments of most of your posts, even before this thread!!!! Check it out yourselves!
"Like most 'intellectuals'..they are intensely boring!" --'Dangerous Liaisons'
'We can for give those who bore us, we can NEVER forgive those who We bore!'--Wilde

Agreeing,

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 07 May 11 - 04:52 PM

Don Firth: "your knee-jerk idea that Americans in general, or me personally, totally approve of the whole operation,"

I can't speak on behalf of anyone else of course, but I'm sure that no-one who has read through this thread properly could have missed that responses from US posters have been varied and considered and certainly not smugly self-congratulatory or jingoistic.

"No matter what one may think of the Obama administration, it beats the hell out of the alternative."

I believe you. And being an outsider, I really don't have a dog in that race.
However, I feel it is still nonetheless appropriate to judge this President according to both his words and actions.
The statement I referred to previously also made mention of the importance of emulating the inspirational example set by the Nuremburg trails in relation to any future capture of bin Laden:

"'What would be important would be for us to do it in a way that allows the entire world to understand the murderous acts that he's engaged in and not to make him into a martyr, and to assure that the United States government is abiding by basic conventions that would strengthen our hand in the broader battle against terrorism.'
The senator cited the Nuremberg trials as an inspiration because the liberators of Nazi-occupied Europe acted to advance universal principles and set a tone for the creation of an international order."

Quote from the Daily Mail, which isn't a preferred usual source, but it seems an unbiased report:

I Won't Make bin Laden a Martyr


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 May 11 - 05:33 PM

By the way, I think Obama is a crappy President!..but taking out OBL was the first promise he's ever kept!..health-care not withstanding..but that was Pelosi's and Reid's baby!
I do question the reason 'Why' he chose to to it, being as he hasn't given a damn about anything else American..but nonetheless, OBL died according to HIS rules, and by his rules! Thousands of his victims, never even were even aware that 'his rules' is what killed them! Osama was just a festering pimple on the ass of humanity, that's time to get popped just came up. Civilized people around the world are grateful. Fanatic jihadists inflamed....whiny, bleeding heart screwballs, just have to feel 'involved' to champion, some sort of 'unfairness', and use any lame excuse they can, to feel important!...You want to feel important, and useful??...Go comfort one of the many thousands of families whose loved ones were killed needlessly by the lunatic, whose time just ran out! He 'wanted' to be a 'martyr', which was just empty rhetoric, to get others to do the dirty work...Team Six merely gave him a 'helping hand'!...sorta like the 'Make-A-Wish-Foundation'. (They give terminally ill children their wish, as to 'lighten their suffering'). Now, OBL got his phony wish. You should be happy for him!

May all your wishes come true!!!!...(as long as they don't include killing innocent men women and children!!)....Osama got all of his!!
Rejoice, and be glad!...sing a folk song in his memory!..raise a toast to him for getting his 72 virgins!..He's in great shape!..that is, if you believe in that horseshit!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 May 11 - 05:35 PM

"However, I feel it is still nonetheless appropriate to judge this President according to both his words and actions."

And - being an outsider - you realize that your opinion and $2.00 American will get you a small cup of Starbucks coffee.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: bobad
Date: 07 May 11 - 05:55 PM

I'm wondering if those who are spewing spittle over the Americans "violating" Pakistan's sovereignty feel the same about Afghani Taliban who regularly move into and out of Pakistan without, I am sure, checking into customs.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 07 May 11 - 06:21 PM

"being an outsider - you realize that your opinion and $2.00 American will get you a small cup of Starbucks coffee."

... come to Canada .... you can get a much better cup of coffee at much less the cost at Tim Horton's !! No one might give a rat's ass on you opinion there but what the hell eh ....

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 07 May 11 - 06:25 PM

"being an outsider - you realize that your opinion and $2.00 American will get you a small cup of Starbucks coffee."

Most definitely - I assure you that I'm not as dumb as I sound..


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 May 11 - 09:15 PM

"come to Canada .... you can get a much better cup of coffee at much less the cost at Tim Horton's"

Come to Maine and you can get your cup of coffee at Tim Hortons but most of us don't, or at Starbuck's either. There's still local breakfast places we can get our coffee black, when we're too lazy to brew up our own.

Anyone bothered to check out the neat videos that were released today from the raid of Bin Laden's compound? I especially liked the one where Bin Laden is shown at his Playstation gunning down aliens.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 11 - 02:16 AM

Those who argued that Obama was wrong have stopped trying to defend their beliefs.
They have stopped posting.
Given up.
Change of heart?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 May 11 - 03:13 AM

Kieth A of Hertford: "Change of heart?"

Maybe they read their own posts...
Maybe they thought of the families who lost loved ones, and considered that they were more victims, than their killer!
Maybe they thought of empathizing with children without fathers or mothers, who were on their way to work, to provide them with food, and homes, more than slick 'legal' arguments to justify why those families deserved that.
Maybe they thought that while the SEALS were rappelling down from their choppers, OBL was planning to make more orphans, and widows.....then again..
Maybe they just don't care...and were tired of embarrassing themselves...and showing other musicians, that they didn't have a heart to begin with.
Maybe they're thinking....
Maybe we're all thinking...
Maybe we should be praying for peace in the hearts of all mankind.
Maybe love really is the answer....we've tried enough alternatives...

Guest from Sanity


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 May 11 - 03:38 AM

I believe it is now established that the US did not inform Pakistan prior to the raid, much less seek consent. Illegal incursion unless a case of hot pursuit. Which it wasn't.

The US claims that its information came from "enhanced interrogation" - call a spade a spade - torture. Fruit of the poisonous tree.

There was no lawful warrant for the arrest of ObL.

Therefore the US had no lawful power to seek to seize ObL at that time and in that place.

Therefore to use reasonable force to resist arrest would have been lawful.

It is clearly established by US admission that ObL was unarmed. His brave wife was I think also unarmed. Against armed soldiers their efforts could have been no more than reasonable force.

Therefore the killing was unlawful. It remains to be seen whether it was a good thing in the abstract.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 May 11 - 03:53 AM

Never trust in a man's better nature...he might not have one!

Is it Richard?..or maybe..never-mind....

You really have nothing to say..nor I to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 11 - 04:20 AM

OBL was clearly taken completely by surprise.
He expected his friends within Pakistan security to tip him off of any such move.
I agree Richard that Pakistan was not informed.
That is why the SEALS are still living and OBL is not.
The incursion is legal if for national self defence.
Pakistan is not disputing the legality of the incursion.
Neither is the UN or any other country or organisation.

The SEALS were entitled to assume that such a fighter would be armed, and to assume a suicide belt


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 11 - 04:37 AM

"Given up." - "Maybe they read their own posts..."
And maybe they have a life away from the screen.
It is is a beautiful day here in the West of Ireland.
Yesterday we were treated to superb displays of traditional music, mainly on the uilleann pipes, from some of the most talented musicians in Ireland, many of them young Travellers - all taking place in the idyllic surroundings of the Atlantic coastline.
The sessions lasted well into the early hours of the morning.
In half an hour's time we're off again to hear more superb playing, drink more foaming pints of Guinness, and spend more time in the the company of people who share our love of music. This again will almost certainly go on into the early hours of tomorrow morning, when we will roll home with our ears ringing with wonderful music and great conversation, having partaken of probably more than enough of the hospitality of 'the blonde in the brown skirt'.
Given the choice of this, and discussing the finer points of assassination, invasion and regimes that use torture and illegal imprisonment, with two spineless individuals who don't even have the bottle to face the conclusions of their own twisted logic - sorry, no competition.
You really should try to get out more.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 11 - 05:48 AM

Glad you had a nice day yesterday Jim.
The weather was not so good here, but we have been very lucky in recent weeks.

I made my comment 24 hours after your early posts yesterday morning.
You did post again during the day, but not to make any contribution to the debate.
Just a snipe at me, and a refusal again to list those countries you referred to earlier.

No contribution in your last post either.

Have you given up?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 11 - 07:03 AM

You typed more words than I did yesterday Jim.
Get a life mate.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 May 11 - 12:07 PM

Richard-

The US claims that its information came from "enhanced interrogation"

A more correct phrasing of what you've posted above would be that there's an active debate within the US of whether any information derived form "enhanced interrogation" was useful or critical. It seems that the alias of the courier did first come from "enhanced interrogation" but that name was meaningless until other prisoners were interviewed with more conventional interrogation techniques and provided corroboration and more detail. Linking the courier to a phone call was the next step and then tracking him to Bin Laden's hide-a-way was the final piece in the puzzle.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 May 11 - 12:41 PM

ObL targeted assassination was Obama's hail mary pass to get re-elected. "Congress? He don't need no stinkin' Congress!"

Does it matter? If you think so, you're kidding yourself. Zawarhiri is still out there to become another political football.

The idea that ObL was really behind 911 is becoming increasingly more ludicrous, the more information out there is available.

No one has completely debunked a "conspiracy theory" about 911. There just isn't enough information available to the public.

Forget transparency in government.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 08 May 11 - 12:53 PM

"ObL targeted assassination was Obama's hail mary pass to get re-elected."

I think similarly, that it was a primarily political decision rather than a pragmatic one.

"Does it matter? If you think so, you're kidding yourself. Zawarhiri is still out there to become another political football."

Yes..

"The idea that ObL was really behind 911 is becoming increasingly more ludicrous, the more information out there is available.
No one has completely debunked a "conspiracy theory" about 911."

You don't have to be a 'conspiracy theorist' to suspect that in the absence of any other takers Bin Laden may well have falsely claimed the attack, not because he actually masterminded it, but instead for purposes of enhancing his prestige.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 May 11 - 12:57 PM

On the BBC news, did I just see a video of Bin Laden watching himself on TV???...I have strong doubts...


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 May 11 - 01:11 PM

Stringsinger: "ObL targeted assassination was Obama's hail mary pass to get re-elected. "Congress? He don't need no stinkin' Congress!"

I pretty much agree with you on that one! I've always distrusted him, from the beginning, as I'm sure my previous posts for the last two-three years would attest to. After the election I layed off of him for a years, as voluntarily promised Amos, and to give the guy room for a chance to do whatever he was going to do...and for the FIRST time, since he's been President, he actually went through the motions, of acting Presidential...and as soon as this bump in the polls go down, I imagine he'll release the photos, just to 'remind' people how 'wonderful' he is.
Personally, I think he is a schill for the bankers, with an 'almost' black face, to appeal to the left/liberals, but in fact, he is just a continuation of Bush/Clinton/Bush/Ford/Kissinger/Carter regimes..with NO slack in between!...each 'appealing' to the 'left' or 'right' ON THE SURFACE, but the main policies, which are ripping off the citizens, of their freedom, liberty, money, property, rights and warring foreign countries, for the highest bidding corporate 'special interests' has NOT changed!..Therefore, the hard sell to the American public!
Also, you possibly are correct about 911, and you can add the Oklahoma City federal building bombing, in with that..(remember the middle eastern guy getting out of the truck, right before the blast, as reported by several witnesses, and caught on camera?).
Sooner or later, all the truth may come out, but meanwhile, the country pretty much applauds Obama for OBL....but looks the other way for Waco!
Still, that being said, my heart goes out for all the innocent victims, who lost their families, or loved ones during this whole charade.
As far as OBL, it appears that the recalcitrant terrorist was at it, all the way to the end, and he was just stopped, in the course of it. Only his supporters, and sympathizers are doing the bitching. Makes you wonder, huh?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 May 11 - 02:07 PM

Guests,I agree and as an addition,, my heart goes out to all of the Iraqis and Afghans who George Bush killed during his "terrist" assaults. Colin Powell's graphs said it all. Weapons of Mass Delusion.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 May 11 - 02:54 PM

Surely, Charlie, the official line is: "The US claims that its information came from "enhanced interrogation"".

Keith, Pakistan has officially voiced its concern. It can hardly do more if it still wants its aid.

"The incursion is legal if for national self defence." - Hmm, funny, what about the Graf Spee?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 08 May 11 - 03:04 PM

"Colin Powell's graphs said it all. Weapons of Mass Delusion."

I was aware of the shoddy case of the plagiarised and 'sexed-up' Phd thesis that our intelligence service used to push the war, I wasn't aware until just now of the shoddy case of the CIA (ab)using Powell by briefing him with material gathered from sources already known to be unreliable.
The more you hear about this stuff, the more attractive the prospect of Iraqui troops swooping in on their own midnight raid to assassinate Bush & Blair becomes.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 May 11 - 03:23 PM

Just because I'm always interested in what other peoples' media are reporting, exactly what "official" source said that the information on Osama's location came from "enhanced interrogation"?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 08 May 11 - 03:39 PM

Somehow I don't agree that the most complicated, most sinister explanations of events are most likely to be correct.

Obama is not Stalin.

Years ago I saw Oliver Stone's paranoid-fantasy flick JFK in the theater. In one scene, an unknown somebody secretly places a bullet on JFK's stretcher. The little old lady next to me shouted out, "Those sons of bitches!" She believed it because she saw it in a movie.

If anyone doubts the Warren Commission (and I know you do), I recommend Vincent Bugliosi's exhaustive book on the subject. Bugliosi is the former prosecutor who secured convictions for Charles Manson and company. A later book strongly indicted George W. Bush for an unnecessary invasion of Iraq.

Bugliosi concludes, among many other things, that Stone's film is baloney.

But Bugliosi could be part of the conspiracy too, and Manson might be innocent. Think about it. The anti-Bush book would then be part of Bugliosi's cover, perhaps written to Obama's order.

And I can't prove it wasn't, either.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 08 May 11 - 04:01 PM

I saw it discussed on BBC's Question Time, though I don't recall if any official source for the information was cited then. Possibly not.

Otherwise, an article in The Telegraph here CIA Admits Waterboarding Yeilded Vital Information goes into greater detail. According to Leon Panetta (director of the CIA) both so-called "enhanced" and other more conventional methods contributed to the full picture. I hear there has been some criticism of the Obama administration's seeming coyness about divulging this detail of the story, particularly from those who support the use of such methods.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 08 May 11 - 04:17 PM

Just as a point of interest, Obama outlawed waterboarding almost as soon as he took office in 2009.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 08 May 11 - 04:27 PM

"Obama outlawed waterboarding"

I believe the relevant information gleaned by such methods, was about ten years old. Clearly there is a contingent of commentators who wish to ensure that "credit" for Bin Laden's elimination, goes to the prior Bush administration.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 11 - 04:48 PM

Richard, I have acknowledged that Pakistan expressed "concern"
That is not challenging the legality of the incursion.
Their concern was that, not having been informed, there could have been an incident.
Reasonable concern I suppose.

Richard, are you not aware that national self defence can justify an incursion without consent?
That is what you would have to argue against.
Some individuals do, but no country or organisation so far.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 11 - 04:53 PM

Re 9/11 conspiracy.
I do not believe it, but I accept that cleverer people than me do.

I followed all the arguments and counterarguments, but that was before the administration changed.

What are the theories about the Democrats?
Were they in on it from the start?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 May 11 - 05:23 PM

Keith, what is the latter part of your post timed at 04:48 trying to say?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 May 11 - 05:42 PM

I can't speak for Keith, but I believe he's talking about the stipulations of International Law. Rulings of the World Court in The Hague. Among other things, after WWI and as a result of the fact that it was totally uncontrollable once released, it outlawed the use of poison gas, which is why it was NOT used in WWII.

You might want to acquaint yourself with that body of law.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 08 May 11 - 06:40 PM

Actually, the Japanese often used poison gas against the Chinese in WWII.

The Chinese didn't have any to strike back with. The Japanese never used it against the western Allies, who did. One reason that it wasn't used in Europe is that both sides had it. If anybody had thought that the use of gas, lawful or not, would have given them a decisive advantage, they'd have used it.

More than one treaty banned the use of poison gas after WWI, but industrial nations kept right on developing and manufacturing them for decades - just in case.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 May 11 - 07:29 PM

""Jim, we have thousands of US service men and women here all the time!
I used to train with them back in the Cold War.
We were very grateful to have them with us in those dark days.
All of which means nothing to you.
Marxist?
Trot?
""

So that's where you picked up your biased ideas.

Pity you didn't notice that they were here by agreement between the US and UK governments.

Pillock?

Prat?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 May 11 - 07:58 PM

By the way, I almost missed this many posts back.

Jim:   "Established as a fact years ago Don - by an Irish govenment that not only has refused to inspect the planes, as they have a right to do, but who have said they were not prepared to interfere in the war against terrorism."

Which is to say, the planes were NOT inspected. So what kind of cargo they may or may not have been carrying is NOT KNOWN. So the idea that they were transporting people for "extraordinary rendition" is merely speculation.

Not a "fact" at all!

V-e-e-e-e-ery interesting. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 May 11 - 08:09 PM

""The only people I see disagreeing are this sites usual malcontents and other terrorists like Hamas that they side with.""

Bobad you are a complete arse, and your agenda is both transparent and reprehensible.

Nobody here is siding with terrorists, and nobody here is the least bit sorry that ObL is dead.

The bone of contention is the way in which the US government rides roughshod over the sovereignty of enemies and friends alike. You obviously support their attitude as you do the very similar arrogance of the Israeli government.

As a citizen of one of the countries most likely to take the brunt of any retaliatory action, I object to the way in which the US handled the affair, and to their insanely self congratulatory insistence that they have made the world a safer place.

It might look that way sitting 4000 miles away from the source of such action, but unlike our resident cold war hero, many in the UK will feel that they stand right in the line of fire from both sides and won't be any too sure which represents the greater danger.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 May 11 - 08:18 PM

""But your knee-jerk idea that Americans in general, or me personally, totally approve of the whole operation, especially the possibility of the use of (and call it what it is!) torture, are insulting, offensive, holier-than-thou, and blatant evidence of rank prejudice.""

Your case might be quite a strong one Don, if you ignore the television coverage of all those non political Americans dancing in the streets.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: bobad
Date: 08 May 11 - 08:18 PM

"Nobody here is siding with terrorists"

The "usual malcontents" have defended the actions of Hamas in attacking Israel, you can look it up. As for calling me an arse....well, that doesn't surprise me.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: bobad
Date: 08 May 11 - 08:55 PM

President Obama on 60 Minutes:

"As nervous as I was about this whole process, the one thing I didn't lose sleep over was the possibility of taking bin Laden out," Obama said. "Justice was done. And I think that anyone who would question that the perpetrator of mass murder on American soil didn't deserve what he got needs to have their head examined."


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 May 11 - 09:32 PM

Are you listening, Bobad? It's not whether ObL deserved to die. It's whether the operation and his killing were LEGAL.

Oh, and if Keith were to be right that self defence legally justifies incursion, then that would be a perfect answer to the claim that Hamas are terrorists.

Oh, and surely Obama, former editor of the Harvard law review realises that no court of competent jurisdiction had ever convicted ObL of murder. He's just found an approach that plays well to the rednecks. The law of the Wild West.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 May 11 - 09:44 PM

Don Firth, the USA at present refuses to recognise the jurisdiction of the International Court of Justice (unless it wants to) or the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court at all.

Dual standard?

Or were you referring to something else?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 May 11 - 09:45 PM

It is now slightly more than 72 hours since I originally said the following:

I would be very interested in seeing a practical scenario for the peaceful capture of Osama from some of those who believe that what actually happened violated some "rule of law".

Anyone care to take it on?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: bobad
Date: 08 May 11 - 09:49 PM

Oh, I'm listening alright, to a lot more eminent legal mind than yours, contrary to what you might think, and the vast majority of them are of the opinion that it was legal.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 08 May 11 - 09:53 PM

Just as a point of interest, the United States is a legally constituted government recognized as a nation by every other nation on earth. So is Pakistan.

Hamas is a political party.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 11 - 01:18 AM

Richard, national self defence could justify an incursion such as this one, but not random acts of terror against a civilian population as practiced by Hamas.

Don T, was I wrong volunteer to stand with the British Army alongside our US allies, against the might of the Warsaw Pact's armoured divisions?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Wotcha
Date: 09 May 11 - 02:08 AM

OBL put himself into combat on 9/11 so it did not matter whether he was picking his nose, brandishing a weapon, or sleeping when he was shot by a service member nearly 10 years later. For this op it appears he was declared a combatant (along with others in his entourage) by the highest national authority, therefore he could be targeted under the ROE being used. This is not assassination but a lawful military action. This was not a civilian law enforcement matter but an extraordinary military action, therefore neither police rules on self defense nor arrest warrants applied. Naturally every op has unintended consequences but that's why Obama is paid to be the "decider" ...


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 09 May 11 - 02:21 AM

"scenario for the peaceful capture of Osama"

As said I'm no military expert. However I'm sure that there are those of us here, who would have preferred it if those who are military experts could have done so, and that there had been a proper trial rather than an execution.

By the by, I wonder how many US posters here are aware of the Wiki leaked information (from US intelligence) which threatened a nuclear attack in Europe if Bin Laden were to be killed in the way that he just has been?

I mention that not in support of terrorists, but just as a reminder to those here angered by outsiders expressing concerns over aspects of this operation, that US military actions can and do have implications for the rest of the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 11 - 02:50 AM

No-one could take that threat seriously Lively.
They hated us enough already.
You can't believe they were holding back on any attacks they could make.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 May 11 - 03:22 AM

Just in case there is any doubt about the Pakistani government's attitude to the incursion into its territory.
Plan B, from a Sunday Times report into the raid:
".... if bin Laden had tried to escape before the Seals arrived a 2,000lb bomb would have been dropped on the compound, obliterating it." - and no doubt, a considerable number of Pakistani citizens along with it - I'm sure they were as happy to welcome the troops as some would suggest in such circumstances!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 May 11 - 03:31 AM

Well, Bobad, you are not conveying that you are so listening. The points you seek to make here are as to practicality not legality or the gut-level argument of "well he deserved it". Maybe he did, but hard cases make bad law.

Keith: your point to Don is irrelevant. I expect he will tell you why.

I am still not clear what your point I queried above was and should be grateful if you would clarify.

I do not think I agree with your assertion that "self defence" could not apply to attacks by Hamas or Hezbollah. Most rocket attacks by them for example, it seems to me, are targeted as accurately as the technology they can muster enables. But further, the US courts have held that the IRA were freedom fighters and political prisoners (InOBU gave details some years ago on here) and I do not see grounds for a more favourable view of the IRA than of Hamas or Hezbollah.

Moreover, if the USA were to recognise international law (see my comments above) as far as I know the determination under international law that a person was an unlawful combatant requires to have been made by a court of competent jurisdiction, and there was no such determination.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 11 - 04:00 AM

Richard, it is not my assertion, it is the position taken by the US government.

"Reinhard Heydrich was one of the key architects of Hitler's genocide against the Jews.

In 1941, the British Special Operations Executive (SOE) was authorised by Winston Churchill to assassinate high-ranking Nazis wherever they could be found.
In 1942, two of the many Czech citizens whom the SOE had trained to implement this strategy blew up the car carrying Heydrich to his office in Prague. He died a week later from infection following his injuries.

If that had taken place today, we would most likely find the Archbishop of Canterbury fretting 'justice didn't seem to be done', Paddy Ashdown tut-tutting that the rule of law did not condone 'non- judicial execution', and human rights lawyers seeking to arrest Churchill for war crimes"


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 11 - 04:02 AM

Richard, Hamas' rockets are indiscriminate.
Lack of better technology does not excuse their use.
Their use is an act of terror.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 09 May 11 - 04:14 AM

"No-one could take that threat seriously Lively."

Perhaps not, I really wouldn't know the truth of the matter.

All I know is what I have read, and that is that one week prior to Bin Laden's killing, Wikileaks released materials indicating that certain information had been gleaned by US intelligence pertaining to a nuclear threat supposedly located in Europe - by which one might well suppose London.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 11 - 04:51 AM

Yes, I read that too.
I do not believe they would hold it back in case OBL was taken.
Maybe save it for an important occasion, e.g. royal wedding or 9/11 anniversary.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 11 - 05:24 AM

"".... if bin Laden had tried to escape before the Seals arrived a 2,000lb bomb would have been dropped on the compound, obliterating it." - and no doubt, a considerable number of Pakistani citizens along with it - I'm sure they were as happy to welcome the troops as some would suggest in such circumstances!!"

There were about 20 people in the compound.
No one in nearby buildings would have been harmed.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 May 11 - 05:42 AM

Saw the abovementioned video again and it does indeed seem Bin Laden had himself filmed watching TV - probably produced to prove, at some stage, he was alive.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 09 May 11 - 05:51 AM

Or maybe just the wife or one of the children messing about with the camcorder?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 May 11 - 06:16 AM

Either way, PL, I suppose the main issue is could/should they have taken him as prisoner.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 May 11 - 06:16 AM

"No one in nearby buildings would have been harmed. "
Oh - only 20 - that's all right then!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 11 - 06:39 AM

What can you do when fighters surround themselves with civilians including children.
The SEALS did well to spare all the children and most of the adults (who all knew their host).


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 May 11 - 06:59 AM

"What can you do when fighters surround themselves with civilians including children."
You can act on the basis that there are non-combatants in the area - you do not kill hostages - we've been here before with you.
It was never necessary to kill bin Laden and it would have been a far greater diplomatic victory - not to mention justice seen to be done, had he been taken and tried.
The argument that hostages might have been taken to free him is far outweighed by the threat of reprisals yet to come for his death.
Your arrogant assumption that only those in the compound would heve been killed doesn't even hold water - it would depend where the bomb landed, and an assuption that a 2,000lb bomb would restrict damage to within a confined area is bloody nonsense.
This was an act of revenge with no consideration of how many would be killed, and has proved to be an utter diplomatic shambles, comparable only with the shootout at the OK Corral.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 11 - 07:26 AM

30 000 Pakistanis killed already by Al Qaeda and Taleban.

The Mk84 2000lb bomb is highly accurate and has a danger zone of 315m.
No buildings were that close to the compound.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 11 - 07:29 AM

the JDAM system will provide a minimum weapon accuracy CEP of 13 meters or less when a GPS signal is available, though Boeing and the Air Forces report less than 10 meters CEP in testing. If the GPS signal is jammed or lost, the JDAM can still achieve a 30 meter CEP or less for free flight times up to 100 seconds


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 May 11 - 07:34 AM

"30 000 Pakistanis killed already by Al Qaeda and Taleban."
The Taliban are terrorists - are you now saying the Americans are?
"No buildings were that close to the compound. "
Again, ignorance on your part - according to the map in the Sunday times the compound ware many houses inthe area and itis not far from a public road - stop making it up to excuse the potentioan killing of non-combatants.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 May 11 - 07:35 AM

Should read potential - of course
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 11 - 07:54 AM

We have all seen pics of the compound now.
It stands alone.
http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Entertainment/20110504/obama-osama-death-announcement-ratings-110504/


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 May 11 - 07:58 AM

"if bin Laden had tried to escape...."

If Times says this, what is their source?

My understanding is that they did not actually know bin Laden was in the building.   This being the case there was no contingency plan to drop a bomb on the building.    They had considered this idea and rejected it for the specific reason there was no certainty bin Laden was in the building.

If this is not so, let's have a direct quote from an authoritative source.

I don't claim to have the last word, but we need some direct quotes here.

Thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 May 11 - 08:12 AM

It seems a small group of U.S. leaders probably do know the answer to part of the above question "COULD/should he have been taken as prisoner?" - they were watching it via cameras strapped to the SEALS, yes? And wouldn't international lawyers say that, if he could have, he definitely should have been taken alive for trial?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 May 11 - 08:13 AM

Prague was enemy territory, 1942 was wartime. Even so the fact that Churchill authorised one assasination it does not prove that it was lawful - he was of course a very right wing alcoholic manic-depressive which may from time to time have impaired his rationality. It certainly does not prove that this assassination was lawful.

What, Keith, do you expect the US to say? They invented the wholly spurious legal case for detention at Guantanamo Bay, precisely to prevent fair trial or habeas corpus.

It may turn out that both assassinations were good things - although in Heydrich's case I suspect the harm was already done so it was mere revenge - but that does not mean that they were lawful. Equally it may turn out that the present assassination was a bad thing, if the Arab spring turns into a winter of discontent, but that does not mean that it was unlawful.

You may believe that the US will never turn on the UK or others of its present allies. That is not a universal view. You may believe that it is "right" that the US can disobey the law but that people of a largely non-white or non-Xtian persuasion must not - but that is not a universal view.

I have asked you to explain a particular point you were trying to make. Would you kindly do so? At present I do not know what you were trying to say and cannot therefore respond if appropriate.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 May 11 - 08:24 AM

"taken alive...".    Thanks for your perceptive comment, showing complete knowledge of the circumstances of trying to take into custody an international terrorist, who is not trying to give himself up, and who has heavily armed assistance in the building.

And just think, then we could have all agonized over how unfair it was that he was not to be tried by a jury of his peers;    that is, a jury of international terrorists.

What fun we could have had.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 May 11 - 08:36 AM

You post as if they have released the footage from the SEALS cameras, Ron..?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 11 - 08:36 AM

Richard, The President will have taken legal advice.
That advice was that as an act of national self defence it was legal to kill or capture OBL in Pakistan.
The legality may be challenged.
Some individuals already have.
No country or organisation yet has.

I think you are saying that even if legal it was wrong.
I respect but disagree with that opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 May 11 - 09:14 AM

"It stands alone."
Just seen arial photiographs on the news - no it doesn't.
You have produced a photograph showing a close up view from the front; the place is scattered with local dwellings.
Whatever anyway - the killing of 20 non-combatants would heve been akin to an act of terrorism - is that what you are excusing?
As I said, this has been a public relations disaster - it was not necessary to kill bin Laden and it would have been far more effective to have taken and tried him.
It is pretty well accepted that Al Qaeda is not an organisation as such, but unconnected groups scattered all over the world. Bin Laden's strategic role was of no importance whatever; rather he was a spiritual leader.
Two days after the assassination US drones tried and failed to kill a likely successor, Anwar al Awlaki - in Yemen; four others have been identified as also likely successors - 3 in Afghanistan and 1 in either Afghganistan or Pakistan - business as usual.
There hasnever been a greater need to get co-operation from other countries - especially after the move to democracy in North Africa; already there is fighting on the streets of Egypt between Muslims and Coptic Christians.
This adventure will have done much to polarise Muslims and halt any advances made over the past yars.
im Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 11 - 09:18 AM

You would prefer he escaped again Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 May 11 - 09:23 AM

Here's an interesting snippet from a Pakistani retired general that I hadn't run across before that indicates the Bin Ladin's compound had attracted some security attention when it was under construction:

Shaukat Qadir, a retired military brigadier, told Al Jazeera that the blame rested with "all parties" because the house bin Laden was reportedly living in should have been under surveillance since it had a history of being an al-Qaeda hideout.

"When the particular house bin Laden was living in was under construction in 2003, it was first raided by the ISI to catch a senior al-Qaeda leader.

"So if this was under suspicion in 2003, how could it not remain under surveilance now?"


I realize that not everyone in this thread is concerned with the details of this story but I'm always interested in the details. The "big picture" is of course more important and will certainly be debated for years.

Charley Noble