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Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che

MorwenEdhelwen1 05 May 11 - 11:19 PM
MorwenEdhelwen1 06 May 11 - 03:54 AM
MorwenEdhelwen1 06 May 11 - 05:17 PM
MorwenEdhelwen1 20 Aug 11 - 12:00 AM
GUEST,999 20 Aug 11 - 12:22 AM
MorwenEdhelwen1 20 Aug 11 - 02:20 AM
MorwenEdhelwen1 20 Aug 11 - 02:50 AM
GUEST,999 20 Aug 11 - 03:10 AM
GUEST,999 20 Aug 11 - 03:33 AM
MorwenEdhelwen1 20 Aug 11 - 04:04 AM
MorwenEdhelwen1 20 Aug 11 - 04:22 AM
MorwenEdhelwen1 20 Aug 11 - 05:55 PM
GUEST,999 20 Aug 11 - 05:59 PM
MorwenEdhelwen1 20 Aug 11 - 06:57 PM
Van 20 Aug 11 - 08:06 PM
MorwenEdhelwen1 21 Aug 11 - 02:08 AM
MorwenEdhelwen1 22 Aug 11 - 03:58 AM
MorwenEdhelwen1 23 Aug 11 - 04:41 AM
Rob Naylor 23 Aug 11 - 05:51 AM
MorwenEdhelwen1 23 Aug 11 - 08:18 AM
MorwenEdhelwen1 24 Aug 11 - 02:50 AM
MorwenEdhelwen1 24 Aug 11 - 11:02 PM
MorwenEdhelwen1 25 Aug 11 - 07:54 AM
GUEST,999 25 Aug 11 - 01:30 PM
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MorwenEdhelwen1 27 Aug 11 - 05:54 AM
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Subject: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 05 May 11 - 11:19 PM

What is the "forgotten brigade" that Che (from Evita) is going to join in the song "Waltz for Eva and Che?" Can any Evita/musical fans (I know musicals aren't very popular on this board) or anyone else shed light on this?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 06 May 11 - 03:54 AM

If anyone wants to see the lyrics I mean, they are:
"Tell me before you get onto your bus
Before you join the forgotten brigade".


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 06 May 11 - 05:17 PM

I always thought the forgotten brigade might have been a metaphor for protesting. Does anyone else share this idea?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 12:00 AM

I did some research and I can't find anything that suggests what it may mean :(. So, for the record (copy-and pasted from the thread "Conversation songs between men and women.")

Lyr Add: Waltz for Eva and Che (Rice/Webber)

WALTZ FOR EVA AND CHE
From the musical "Evita".
Lyrics by Tim Rice, music by Andrew Lloyd Webber

CHE. Tell me before I waltz out of your life,
Before turning my back on the past,
Forgive my impertinent behaviour,
But how long do you think this pantomime can last?
Tell me before I ride off in the sunset,
There's one thing I never got clear,

How can you claim you're our saviour
When those who oppose you are stepped on, or cut up, or simply disappear?

EVA. Tell me before you get onto your bus,
Before joining the forgotten brigade,
How can one person like me, say,
Alter the time-honoured way the game is played?
Tell me before you get onto your high horse,
Just what you expect me to do,
I don't care what the bourgeoisie say,
I'm not in business for them,
But to give all my descamisados
A magical moment or two

CHORUS (Both) There is evil ever around,
Fundamental system of government, quite incidental.

EVA. So what are my chances of honest advances?
I'd say low,
Better to win by admitting my sin
Than to lose with a halo.

CHE. Tell me before I seek worthier pastures,
And thereby restore self-esteem,
How can you be so short-sighted,
And look never further than this week or next week,
To have no impossible dream?
(CHORUS)

EVA. Allow me to help you slink off to the sidelines,
And mark your adieu with three cheers!
But first tell me who'd be delighted
If I said I'd take on the world's greatest problems
From war to pollution, no hope of solution,
Even if I lived for one hundred years?

(CHORUS)

EVA So go, if you're able,
To somewhere unstable
And stay there!
Whip up your hate, in some tottering state
But not here, dear,
Is that clear, dear?

Oh, what I'd give for a hundred years!
But the physical interferes,
Every day more. Oh, my Creator!
Oh, what's the good of the strongest heart,
In a body that's falling apart?
A serious flaw, I hope You know that.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: GUEST,999
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 12:22 AM

Yeah. It means that people with money screwed over the Argentines, and also got them buying into the notion that some military officer--Juan--legitimized Eva and so every damned thing was ok.

Well, it wasn't. The horrors that came out of the system (she organized death squads to torture and kill Argentinians) mean that this kind of crap song glorify a person who should have had her brains bashed out at birth.

The last time I tried to 'help' you on one of your threads you decided I needed an education about Africa and you proceeded to give me one. If you already know everything, why ask? As a btw, I have a university degree, AND part of that degree was heavy in world history.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 02:20 AM

Thanks for that. Sorry about that African post, if I offended you or anything :(. I don't already know everything. I apologise for giving that impression. I don't want to *offend* people anything, so I'm also *really* sorry about this if it gives you the wrong impression but I am *not* or at least, I don't like to *think of myself as* a snotty know-it-all teenage girl who makes Hermione look not like a know-it-all. and another apology for this, but BTW, I am studying Modern History in school.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 02:50 AM

And sorry if this offends you (not meant sarcastically, I actually mean I'm sorry if it offends you) but Eva "should have had her brains bashed out at birth"? I'm learning about Communist Russia in school Modern History right now, and Stalin was, *in my opinion at least*, much worse than both of the Perons. My opinion is that if anyone, any political leader should have had their brains bashed out at birth, they are Hitler (not trying to stir up debate about Nazism, just saying) and Stalin. Juan Peron's regime was repressive (the cult of personality, the secret police that you mentioned), as Che says in "The Lady's Got Potential" in the musical, he "saw Mussolini's rise from the very front row", and passed fascist laws although he was elected democratically. BTW I didn't learn this in school and haven't done much research on it, so I am not an expert, but my opinion of Eva is that she is one of those historical figures that no-one seems to have a balanced opinion about. No-one ever says "She was human- she was both good and bad." Instead it's,"She was a saint- how dare you have a different opinion of her!" or "She completely ruined her entire country! How can you think she did anything good during her adult life while she was in politics?" BTW, this is my opinion, but I don't think this song glorifies her at all. The whole musical portrays her as this callous, power-hungry "woman with the whip". She was a significant part of the repressive Peronist regime, but she was human.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: GUEST,999
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 03:10 AM

Thank you, Morwen. Fair enough.

I have an aversion to songs that laud people like the Perons. That said, I have never thought of you as "a snotty know-it-all teenage girl". I do think of you as a young lady with a music/history research interest. I am happy you like history. So do I. I just intensely dislike the song, and my apologies for being so heavy handed.

I wish you the best in your university pursuits. And remember, just because it's written in a book don't (I know that should be 'doesn't, but some rules are made to be broken) make it right. Because of that, we will likely never be able to know what our human history is for too many historians have borrowed/stolen from other historians.

As a btw, I too study modern history, given that history is the past and I can seldom recall whether I ate for breakfast today or yesterday, and if so, what?

Bfn.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: GUEST,999
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 03:33 AM

02:50 AM

Regarding that post: the people of Argentina--at least according to most of what's on the www about her--adored her. It just ain't so. When one controls the press (recall the philosophy about Stalin: It doesn't matter who votes. It matters who counts the votes.) one controls people's views.

"Juan Peron's regime was repressive"

Indeed it was, and it led to the tens of thousands who were 'disappeared', thus at once adding a new verb to English and a new way to call a spade a shovel. The regime turned out to be murdering scum who used terror to control the population, another word that means people with families, children, hopes, dreams and aspirations.

I agree that Hitler and Stalin were tyrants--they are good arguments for abortion. (Some apologists will no doubt be along to say, "Well, they did many good things, too." However, if it had been your (the universal, not personal your) family killed by them, I doubt you'd feel the same way.)

I don't know what the difference is between 1000 and 8,000,000 deaths is. When Stalin starved the people in the Ukraine, was that in essence different from what the Perons did? Or Mao-tse Tung (Zedong) with the Chinese, or Pol Pot with 'his' people? Tough question, and I am not intelligent enough to have a definitive answer.

Again, best wishes regarding your studies.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 04:04 AM

By "school" I mean high school. I hope I will be attending university in the future, though.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 04:22 AM

Also,999, just curious- have you seen the musical? Because it doesn't glorify her. It portrays her as callous and overly ambitious. In its context, this song is a duet between Eva and Che, arguing about politics. In Eva's verses, she is defending her political actions.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 05:55 PM

Refresh.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: GUEST,999
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 05:59 PM

No, I didn't see it. If I have misunderstood, mea culpa and here's my apology.

Keep well.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 06:57 PM

Thanks. Well, anyone else want to discuss this song?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: Van
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 08:06 PM

Don't learn history from Lloyd Webber songs.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 02:08 AM

I'm only trying to find out what the phrase "forgotten brigade" may mean in this context.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 03:58 AM

Refresh.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 04:41 AM

Anyone else interested?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 05:51 AM

Just seems to me that it means "someone who's moved away from being a mover and shaker"...ie forgotten by history. An "ironic" comment from Mr L-W given the hindsight he brought to writing the song.

Regarding the levels of "badness"... I believe that in most cases these uncompromising, fanatical people of whatever persuasion are of a similar type. Sure, Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot killed millions, but who knows what Guevara would have ended up doing had he got firmly into a position of real power over an entire nation? He certainly personally shot dozens of people in cold blood (as opposed to on the battlefield) and often without evidence of them having done anything "wrong".

I've never understood why he's been elevated to almost god-like proportions among many left-leaning people. IMO he was simly another self-created "messianic" figure with a huge ego who believed that *his* ends justified any means....differing from Stalin, Hitler, etc only in the scale of the opportunities he had to display his brutality.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 08:18 AM

Thanks, Rob! Interestingly (as you'll know if you've ever seen a stage production of the musical or the Madonna/Banderas movie, so I apologise if you already know) the ONLY reference to Che as Guevara which is in every version of the play is in this song: "Whip up your hate in some tottering state". The play is not historically accurate, but it is an interesting look at the impact of national politics on world leaders and on the citizens of their countries, and at the cult of personality.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 02:50 AM

What could "get on your bus" mean, btw? A metaphor? Literal?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 11:02 PM

Refresh.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 07:54 AM

Refresh.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 01:30 PM

It means "get on your means of transportation and frig off".


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 06:55 PM

I've always thought that "get onto your bus, join the forgotten brigade" were linked. That is, she's saying "go away and join a guerrilla army." But maybe if "forgotten brigade" is metaphorical, what it really means is "go away and you'll be forgotten by history while *I'll* be remembered. Maybe it isn't entirely metaphorical though. 


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 07:38 PM

ME1: Good luck with your deliberations.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 08:31 AM

Refresh. Thanks, 999!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 05:54 AM

Refresh. Anyone have other opinions?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 08:11 AM

Refresh.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 07:17 AM

Refresh again.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: GUEST,SicPuppy
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 06:33 PM

I have seen the original American play several times, including on broadway and the touring cast, the movie, and have the original LP album and cd set.

After seeing the play the first time, I became interested in "Santa Evita" and read up on her via the library (there was no internet back then- or even personal computers)...

The movie was ok, but if you knew the play, you would probably agree the movie can barely hold a candle to it. Madonna cannot do justice to Patti LuPone. That was just my own commentary on that.

As far as Che goes, it was Che Guevara. ALW commented that while Che grew up in Argentina during the time of the Peron's rule (I think he was 19 when they came to power), there was no evidence they has ever met, or that Che even participated in any protests or anything else, Weber just used Che's character as an antagonist to Evita.

I think the play (and the movie to some extent) portrayed her rather accurately. She was a major itch with a capitol "B"!

Her and her husband both were corrupt, murderers, evil, and even Nazi sympathizers (they allowed many Nazis to flee to Argentina (so long as they had they money to pay for it, of course)). They bled their country at every opportunity.

As far as the "Forgotten Brigade", I have no idea what that was in reference to, but my wife asked me about it earlier today, hence my arrival here after a google search.

Seriously though, check out the music, lyrics, or the play and then decide what the song(s) meant as far as glorifying Evita- it was in no way doing so. In fact, the "People of Argentina", as well as the government of Argentina hated the music and the play because it maligned their beloved "Santa Evita".


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 07:29 PM

SicPuppy, I did a history unit on Che Guevara in Year 9 on ""Heroes and Villains"- good or bad sides of historical figures, and he was 17 when juan and Eva Peron came to power. BTW, Eva established a charitable foundation in Argentina, and I'm not saying that it makes her good, but some people who were around at the time report that she went to disease-ridden areas to help care for sick people.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 05:44 PM

Refresh.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: GUEST,interested
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 10:26 PM

First of all i cant believe that this kind of discussion still takes place this is amazing.

In the song "Oh what a circus" the lyrics goes:

"But that's all gone now
As soon as the smoke from the funeral clears
We're all gonna see and how, she did nothing for years"

When it mentioned "she did nothing for years", did she really do nothing?

thanks


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 01:44 AM

interested, "she did nothing for years" is the opinion of the narrator, Che, who represents all of Eva's fiercest opponents.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 30 Dec 11 - 09:16 PM

ie "She did nothing for years" aka "It's all just smoke and mirrors". I always thought of this story as one which could be reworked extensively to fit a 'banana republic" scenario, where Che is Eva's servant. (Actually one of my projects is based on that idea. But it's very different).


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 30 Dec 11 - 09:17 PM

[b] very different [/b]


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 30 Dec 11 - 09:26 PM

Although apparently the "[b] servant boy becomes a revolutionary[/b]" plot has been used before.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 30 Dec 11 - 09:28 PM

Sorry should "servant boy who becomes a revolutionary" Messed up my brackets!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 01 Jan 12 - 06:24 AM

Refresh


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: Chris Partington
Date: 01 Jan 12 - 09:33 AM

Refresh? Why?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Jan 12 - 09:44 AM

I think you are looking for too much depth, over analyzing asit were. The term is just a metaphor to represent that the victors write the histories and the multitudes of "true believers that risked all are relegated to the dustbins of history. That is how I take that lyric.

Bruce, great job in this discussion.

All the best,

Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: Forgotten brigade- Waltz for Eva and Che
From: GUEST
Date: 15 May 16 - 10:08 PM

I have always taken Evita's foreshadowing as Che who was Argentinian but travelled thru South America onamotorcycle no less and formed his strong Marxist beliefs. He successfully (from his view) participated I the Cuban Revolution. He continued to try to overthrow governments in Africa before returning to Bolivia in 1965 where again he tried to stir a revolution. He was captured and killed by the CIA ending his revolutionist spree.

So I take Eva as saying" tell me before you run forward to your Marxist efforts where your brigades will fail.yeah sounds too weird but she is saying before you pursue your useless efforts tell me........

So another view


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