Why does bad music sell?

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: JedMarum
Date: 29 Sep 99 - 12:31 PM

great comments Frank!

I don't understand why we have to classify 'we' and 'them' regaridng our choice of music. I don't believe that if you participate in the genre of Pop you must have sold your soul, and turned your back on the true art form. Maria Carie, or Garth Brooks can be as true their hearts and as true to their musical muse as Ledbetter, Tom Paxton and Frank Hamilton!

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: Frank Hamilton
Date: 29 Sep 99 - 12:08 PM

Liam, "culturally adventurous" is the operative work here, I think.

Tom,

Standards of beauty are arbitrary of course. Another cliche would be "one person's crap is another's manna. The point I make is that each form of music has to be met with it's own criteria for whether it works or not. (God help us if we do a poll of cultural preferences in the US in music.) IE: Is Barry Manilow a good popular singer? I think so. Is "gangsta rap" riveting and speak for a generation of disaffected young people effectively? I think so. As much in the days of my youth in the folk snobbery club, I used to abhor Eddie Fisher but I now come to the conclusion that the man could really sing whether I liked his music or not.

I think that the premise of this thread will lead us down a blind alley because we are attempting to apply specific judgements to popular music that don't fit. It's not supposed to be art music or folk music. It's created to entertain and sell. What's the goal of an artist in the pop field? Mostly platinum records and a bullet on the charts. If they say something important musically for them then that's gravy. There are those in the field who are not plugged into the mass distribution of recordings who desire to be accepted artistically on their merits. Many singer/songwriters fall into this category and they develop their own audiences such as the unique Tom Paxton. But they're not trying to be popular artists. Tom has done that already with "Bottle of Wine". The question "Why does bad music sell" is because a judgement is placed on music that's designed to sell without regard for it's intent. Also, there is the implied judgement that because it sells it somehow must be "bad". The answer to this question is to question the notion that because it's popular it has to be "bad". When we bring such judgements to bear we have to determine specifics. What parts do you consider "bad" and why?

Beating a dead horse here, Mariah Carey is a "good" singer. I don't care for what she sings about but she knows her market better than I. She's still a "good" singer whether I like her or not. "Good singer"....She has command over her vocal instrument, clear diction, true pitch, dynamic range and can employ sophisticated vocal ornaments culled from an African-American singing style associated originally with Black gospel churches in metropolitan areas. I think she uses this style to excess but I understand that it sells. But this doesn't make her singing "bad".

Lets get specific. What are we specifically talking about here?

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: JedMarum
Date: 29 Sep 99 - 11:16 AM

I have read, re-read, thought and re-thought comments on this subject and I have come to believe Rick Fielding says it best. We (Mudcatters)are folk music enthusiasts. We find beauty and magic in our chosen art, but there are few within society at-large who see the value in it that we do.

I don't prefer to be part of a small minority regarding the music I most prefer, but I rejoice in the music and thank God that I am able to see its beauty. While I share my enthusiasm for this music with others, I feel no need to evangelize. I really do find that when I am performing my audiences may never have heard of Tom Paxton before they walked in to where I'm playing, but they love Last Thing on My Mind or Can't Help but Wonder Where I'm Bound. They may not know who Ledbetter is, but they enjoy hearing Goodnight Irene and they think maybe they've heard it before.

On a similar note, by the way ... I never did understand why someone would choose to drink Coca Cola when there is grape juice available - but then maybe I'm just a little warped!

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: Tom B.
Date: 23 Sep 99 - 11:56 AM

Thanks to those of you who took the time to read my too-long post...

annap, hope I didn't sound too harsh. Of course it's merely my opinion (I just assume that everyone who posts is just posting their opinion), and I would also like to say for the record that everything I ever post here is always meant courteously and constructively (even if it don't seem so)...To answer whether or not I listen to today's music or not, what happens is that I fiddle with the dial and I can't settle anywhere. In 1968 or 1971 you could settle in quite a few places. That's what I'm lamenting, the top down corporate monopoly of the airwaves which create popular taste; remember, the number of frequencies on the dial remain the same; now that the music "industry" (nice name, huh?) has got its grip, it just forcefeeds us on its own terms. Yes I know that the do it yourself, independent world out there exists, that great music is being written and performed and recorded in various nooks and crannies, and even in the mainstream somewhat; I just lament the pathetic and annoying ubiquity of the ugly and the mediocre in our culture...

Frank, I did give criteria for "good" music, by seconding Bryant's post about judging art in general. And of course, I still feel that, although it is subjective and therefore can't be quantified, most of us can agree on the really bad music out there, without describing why (in the same way it will never be possible to explain why beautiful women (or beautiful men) are nearly unanimously considered beautiful; saying "she's a '10'" is a quantification of a quality, which is too pat, altho very roughly useful; or worse "ugly" "pretty", which is basically a binary thumbs up or down (isn't that how paths are created? what's that poem by Frost? but let's not go down that branch of the thread)...

M, I agree one shouldn't be closed-minded, and I agree the popular music is PRODUCED to sell, that's its function, and what I'm saying is that I wish it were otherwise, that's all; that, to put it quaintly, beauty and truth were the goals of art; to say that all noise is art is taking the easy way out. I also question whether those who listen to rap or loud angst REALLY like it, really make a conscious choice to listen to it because it feeds their soul. We're all human, and you can quote "treasure and trash", but I think there are some universals out there; if I'm made physically ill listening to it, then I know others who listen to it are also receiving that vibe and transmuting it somehow, but in any case it's not healthy or pleasant (maybe the goal for them is unhealthy and unpleasant; in that case we go clinical; but let's call it what it is). This concerns me because these are my fellow beings who are spending their time this way, and their vibe and behavior affect me, since we live in the same world. Lastly, yes, I'll grant that there may be good "rap" or "grunge", but the percentage of such is so low that a person must allow an enormous amount of the "bad" rap and grunge to pass through their eardrums and consciousnesses that it becomes a dubious pasttime.

Very nice lyrics Jon Freeman. Woman IS proof of God's existence.

Northfolk/al cholger, yes, and I'm still trying to figure out why corporates try to make a buck with bad music instead of good. Why do the corporates with the bad music successfully eclipse (in that limited frequency dial and shelf space) those who promote good music? Naively I guess, I just don't understand why everyone doesn't consciuosly pursue the beautiful and "true", period. Can't money be made there just as easily? (Please don't ask me to define Beauty and Truth. What is Truth? Beauty. What is Beauty? Truth.)

You guys are great. I'm glad I found this site.

Tom B.

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 23 Sep 99 - 09:49 AM

Jon,

I enjoyed The Festival Shagger, thanks for sharing. I agree with it's sentiment.

Bonking to the oldies, sounds like a great thread. Who's going to start it?

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: northfolk/al cholger
Date: 23 Sep 99 - 12:03 AM

Bad music sells, and occasionally good music sells, but music that can make a buck for them that controls the music industry , sells. The likely exception is that some of the forms of music that often attacks the corporate music filter, isn't marketed. That includes a lot of folk...A very good discussion of the issue, was done in "The Nation" magazine, two or three years ago, worth a read for those so inclined. I like the concept of sharing our music as broadly as possible, without trying to turn it into a vehicle to fill up stadiums or other big venues that aren't conducive to good listening...Sorry I don't want to pay for your Benz or your boat, but there isn't one of you that I wouldn't rather listen to at the Ark, or around a campfire

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: Mudjack
Date: 22 Sep 99 - 11:23 PM

Bonking to the Oldies??? You mean I could have chose an oldies song and grabbed my lifelong partner and Bonked to the Oldies. Great stuff... Bonking to the oldies might have to spin off into it's own thread. I can hear a song here, Bonking..bonking to the old songs. That might be a million dollar seller. This thread is a winner and should reach the 100 club. 100 meaning 100 entries in opinions and controversy without slandering or name calling.
Mudjack

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 22 Sep 99 - 05:40 PM

Steve, I've been single all my life unfortunately but I have had a couple of nice relationships all the same.

The subject you mentioned cropped up in rec.music.celtic fairly recently and was titled Bonking To The Oldies.

Seeing as shagging has been mentioned here, I once had a girlfriend who because I could walk in to pubs etc on my own and play during festivals etc, thought that I must have been attractive to all the women and called me a Festival Shagger. I have posted this one to rmc thread but I will put the poem that I wrote about it here as well:

Jon

The festival shagger he sat on the quay playing tunes on banjo an melodeon
Looking at women that he did adore, bodies for him to pray on
As a crowd passed him by, he'd study the form and compare parts of their bodies for size
And if one was sitting close by him be sure, he'd undress her with his eyes.

The festival shagger wasn't really a shagger but at times he wished that he had been
When he thought about women he'd fancy he'd say "just wish I'd been part of the rock scene
If those rumours are true, I'd have sex, drugs and tunes - I'm sure I could learn to enjoy it"
But I can only play folk and to most that's a joke - perhaps I'd do better without it.

The festival shagger was in fact still a virgin when he had his first shag from a gig
From the most fabulous body God ever created and part of the shagger grew big
But the shagger soon learned a lesson - not in sex but in love of a kind
The body he' fancied and wanted to shag had an even more beautiful mind.

The festival shagger still sits on the quay and he plays much the same as before
Just the same old songs - an he still looks at women, there are many that he does adore
He sees beautiful women of all shapes an sizes but he knows that his old ways were blind
He's just looking in vain 'cause his eyes can't be trained to find one with a beautiful mind.

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 22 Sep 99 - 04:20 PM

It has been stated several times that kids use music as an aphrodisiac. Recently having found myself unattached again, I'm wondering if any of you would be kind enough to ask their kids what music works best. There are very few things that I would sacrifice my musical standards for, but this is one of them.

On a more serious note, how many of you actually have spouses/significant others who share your passion for "good music"? I get from this that most of us are very passionate about "good music" and completely intolerant of middle of the road, formulated mindless pap. Does anyone ever get "fer gawds sake, will you take that (Choose one) Robert Johnson, Hank Williams, Charlie Parker, Stan Rogers off and put on some Spice Girls, I want to dance"?

Hey, how about a greatest shaggin' music thread? Mines a toss up between Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon and Motorhead's Ace of Spades, depending on the mood I'm in.

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: M
Date: 22 Sep 99 - 03:21 PM

Y'all just don't get it. There is no "good" or "bad," there just is. And its all art, whether you like it or not. The thing with "popular" stuff is that its PRODUCED to make money (by and for the record label). Not CREATED to make money, but PRODUCED--threre's a differnce. Corporate record labels (and I mean the big 3 or 5) exist to make a profit, not to educate or beautify the listening public. I agree with annap--you shouldn't force yourself to listen to something you don't like, but if you cut yourself off from it entirely you close the door on some great stuff you just might like. Think of my friend who really likes steak, and that's all he ever orders, really, no matter what kind of restaurant he's eating in. Yes, it brings him pleasure, but...You get the picture? Me, I believe in listening to everything and finding what you like in all of it. And it seems that once people get to a certain age, they stop listening. "Youngsters" like stuff their parents not "don't like" but "don't understand." (When "modern," non-representational painting became the thing--how upset the established art world and public were.) So keep growing, keep exploring, keep listening. Don't be rigid. There is some really "good" grunge, metal, blugrass, rap. trip-hop, folk, Turkish, alternative, electronic (listening to Sasha & Digweed right at this moment), Irish, gospel, country, Swedish, (etc.) NEW music out there. If it moves you, that's the one and only point.

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: annamill
Date: 22 Sep 99 - 01:26 PM

Wow Tom. That's a lot of info to digest. And the presentation... THIS IS THE ONLY TRUTH!... Those comments were only you're opinion, right? I can only comment on my own little bit of it that was addressed to me, annap. The rest, well, I don't know how to start.

Well,mine. I don't force myself to listen to anything, but I respect my son's rights to his own taste(or whatever you'd want to call it) in music. I have to laugh. Some of the lyrics he goes around the house screaming are right on the money when it comes to todays world. I let him play it when we are alone, but he respects me and if I ask him to turn it off, he does. He doesn't play it when I have company as not one of my friends can handle "Korn". I see you knew how to spell it. I didn't. Thank you.

BTW, I found your comments very interesting. Did it all mean you don't like today music?? (Tongue in cheek; **BG** ;-) How much have you actually listened to? Oh, never mind.

Love, annap

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 22 Sep 99 - 12:38 PM

Hey Tom, welcome back! You may ONLY be thirty nine, but you qualify as an "opinionated Old Fart"! (PLEASE..I'm laughing as I say this!) I've been one since the age of 16. Like Mudjack I'm afraid my tastes in music, movies and several other things appear to be elitist. I didn't set out to have minority tastes..like Topsy, they just grew. I know that being a shy kid who couldn't dance (still can't) was a big motivator in my hunting down a community where I could feel valued. Well, that's the Folkie "club". Over 30 plus years I've witnessed far less discrimination aimed at folkies for not being "mainstream" in size, weight, material success, social skills etc. The pre-requisite to be part of this "group" seems only the DESIRE to be part of it. I like that. It can tend to make you see music in a bit of an "us vs. them" way, however. The saving grace is that all of our loose "membership" will never come to a consensus on what's bad or good music. Like Frank, I can appreciate the skill that goes into much contemporary jazz, Wagner, or even Sinatra or Lawrence Welk, but it will never move me like Bix, Rachmaninov, Django, Tom Ashley, Doc Watson or the Delmore Brothers.

Rick

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: Bert
Date: 22 Sep 99 - 11:27 AM

Good points Frank. Both are true, but I still think that personal preference does play a big art in deciding what we think is good or bad. I like beer, I think it's good; My wife doesn't, she thinks it's bad.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: Frank Hamilton
Date: 22 Sep 99 - 11:06 AM

I can't agree that bad music is that "which I don't like". For 2 reasons. 1. It closes the door on the possiblity of liking the unfamilar. 2. There's a lot of "good" music I don't like. Wagner, for example, or avant guard jazz. The fact that I don't like it doesn't mean it's not good. But we're begging the question by not going out of the limb and saying which music we think is "good" or "bad" and why. Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: Tom B.
Date: 22 Sep 99 - 04:10 AM

I asked 'why does bad music sell?', and I go out of town for a few days, completely unaware of this most cool discussion, and return to find this beautiful DNA strand...To all of you, wow, and if you return to this thread to respond to my comments, I actually have a second post with conclusive convictions that I'm not afraid to express but haven't space here (out of respect for average post length and studies that say that mudcatters don't read threads that are more than 297 words...)

So many people wrote so many things that I totally agree with, and I would like, in the brfst spc psbl, to comment...

For those of you who are veterans to this topic, and are even glad that good music isn't popular (as someone posted), you can just scan this, and find it all too familiar I'm sure; but as others have said (was it a female?), they like talking about this anyway because you can have your opinions here and....oh, onward.

As many people have said, I believe it is marketing, young people having "their own" music (more on that later), the top-down repetitious force-feeding of the masses, even the "one man's trash is another man's treasure" (more on that later), sex-appeal (regardless of the music), the celebration of celebrity, that youth will listen to anything other than what their parents like (more on that...), peer pressure ("pushing" trendiness or fashion, actually), the weakness of music education in the schools, the fact that "mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself", and might in fact be "threatened by genius"...

Ultimately, the question had to be asked: how do you define "good" and "bad". I agree with Bert, that it's music that I don't like. I think actually that we are today afraid of voicing so-called subjective opinions that are in fact obvious recognitions of objective fact; the public is scared to comment on a lot of things for fear of the irreparable smear of accusation and "controversy". I say, just say something is "wrong" and explain why. There's nothing "wrong" with that. If your explanation is lame, then people won't agree with you, and in a democracy, ideally, you'll be ignored. The ole marketplace of ideas. But if you try to inhibit free speech, etcetera...to bad it needs each time to be explained....

And why IS IT (krueger) that the only sonic intrusion at the stoplight is the rumble of a moronic electronic "pulse bass" and drum sequence (instead of Mozart or Ry Cooder)? Is this what it all leads to? Before Reagan was elected (I only use him as a marker), I would have thought we'd have solar peace and love by now! I guess it's the realization that I'm 39 and living in the most modern of worlds and the populace in general does not have the appreciation for beauty and truth (what EVER that may be 'tis fine!) that I would like to see, generally, swimming in public discouse on the commons so to speak. Instead its fear and tough guy unlove.

And do these people who play this music really LIKE it? Well...I totally agree with what Bryant said just a few posts back about "edifying heart and mind," uplifting the soul, the historic and formal criteria for judging ART, and all that other good "quaint" stuff. In fact, that post is my answer to the question of what is "good" music (and therefore "bad" music).

But do we really need to sponsor so-called scientific studies on the effect of sound on your soul, personality, ego, physical being, emotional state, or whatever you identify yourself with? Isn't it OBVIOUS? How do you feel when you hear bad music? As I believe it was (Chet?) who said earlier, can you trust your own judgement, can you make do with yourself, here and now? Let's go to the living room and play some tunes.

Do we really need to "define" the aesthetics? joeler said in his/her post that "there is no such thing as bad music. Music is relative." Hmmm. And I like chainsaws revving on that stage, too. I want to comment on relativism in our culture today, but I won't for now. And annap says about her son listening to Korn , "I don't enjoy listening to it, but some of the lyrics are creative". That strikes me as saying I don't like torture, buy my, you sure have a way with that cattle prod...Why acquiesce to what makes you physically and emotionally and mentally uncomfortable? Why strain to find things you like about something? History, ART, and life are so replete with models and even originals that generated those models that culture these days should be a breeze...but NO! We have to be subjugated at every turn to SHIT (is that allowed, to say the word "SHIT"? I'm so sorry if I offended...) Picture yourself at a party listening to the music that I dislike (what do I dislike? loud, banal, angsty, as if I were unhappy, as if someone gave me all this equipment a year ago and now I think I'm a rock star). Are you moving forward in your spiritual, or even atheistic (whatever), improvement? Does the food feed you? Do you REALLY like it? Can you answer HONESTLY? And if you say yes, I probably can't HEAR YOU anyway!

wildlone asked that we imagine today's popular music as something that we would, in later years, consider "classics..." Scary concept, isn't?

Art Thieme says each new generation listens to music for the purpose of "grossing out their parents". I'll grant that he would qualify that statement, but on its own, it frightens me if it's true. I myself remember simply being attracted to what was pleasant and uplifting (born in 1960, I'm sorry I missed the "genuine" folk scene; I heard the Beatles and to this day I love it for what it was, and all after, til about, oh, 1971, etc. And of course all the cool, not-so-famous music that has been played all along...). M.Ted says the same thing, that there is this pattern of older fogies not liking what kids are listening to simply because it's not part of our nostalgic era... I think if you step back and look at popular music--and many people have rightly noted that there is dreck in all the genres at all times--but I'm not talking about the dreck, I'm talking about the genuine popular music, and the title of this thread refers to what SELLS--you will see that, if I may be so glib, going from Elvis to Beatles (don't fuss with me on these markers if you catch my general drift...) "afterglow" poprock to heavy metal, disco and then quickly to punk to techno to rap and hip hop to alternative to whatever they wanna call it these days...if you just step back and look at it, you can see a pattern: I'll just say it: Popular music gets worse. Look at the charts, historically, just look at the top 20 today and compare to your own halcyon days... (Of course you know that behind the scenes there are the great music makers, who are sometimes even somewhat popular, all along, and as we all know, that will never die)

What concerns me is the scope and magnitude of the grasp of this top-down marketing of not only innocuous banality but outright "I dare you to stop me" degeneracy. You're blind if you don't see it...

It is a CELEBRATION OF THE UGLY, shamelessly. Or a CELEBRATION OF THE MEDIOCRE. We've all got drum machines, 4 and 8 tracks; we're all stars, man! Let's make some noise, and push it on our (friends?)...I see a parallel to the drug business. Peer pressure.

Sapper_RE says he's elitist and proud of it, and out and out says that this "gutter culture is wrong". Gee, can one get away with saying something so obvious in 1999? "Wrong"? I can just hear people jumping all over that statement, as in "who are you to judge what's right and wrong? Like the one who says that music is "relative"; "one man's trash is another man's treasure"...(I myself LOVE yard sales). Of course I myself will defend to the death your right to rummage thru rubbish, but at the same time please let me ask you, without fear of being shushed, why the hell you would want to do that, because I know it's NOT because you're that hungry. Let's not mix metaphors.

I had to write so much, cause i started this thing and wasn't able to comment during the chat...forgive me!

I really appreciated the comments of Bryant, Sapper, Frank H., Krueger, Jon Freeman, ChetW, wildlone, Rick, Buggy, Jack (who is in fact Jack), sophocleese, 1amarca, Mudjack, joe offer, jo_77, whitehead, kendall, bert, and actually everyone and that includes Lonesome Gillette who made a comment that I don't think anyone will ever really appreciate because it is simply too "beyond" those of us who are enwebbed in the taken for granted modernity. The implications are various: if there were no recorded music, as wonderful as it may be to have recorded music handy to play electronically, just think about how that makes relations among, between, through, and about people...

OK, I'm goin'...

Tom

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: Mudjack
Date: 21 Sep 99 - 06:55 PM

OK, I throw in the towel, our society(majority) measures success by how much money one earns. So I'm throwing all my folkies albums in the dump and going out and buy some real GOOD music. I'll have to check out the top ten charts, that will be a good start.
AGHhh...YUK.. I just puked chunks of #@#^% al over my keyboard. One should be careful of what he says around here. Thats what I get for even kidding about bad music making so much money.>br> Mudjack

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: Sapper_RE
Date: 21 Sep 99 - 07:32 AM

The majority of people in the Western World have lost the abillity to think for themselves regarding making choices. For reasons that have been mentioned above, they find it much easier to "go with the flow". The result is that the music, TV programmes and films that appeal to "the lowest common denominator" in taste are those that gain quickest mass acceptance and lead to "the Gutter Culture" that is so prevelant today. Yes, I am an elitist and proud of it, because without people being prepared to say this Gutter Culture is wrong we will, in the long run all loose out. Bob

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: Harvey Gerst
Date: 21 Sep 99 - 02:05 AM

From the Weavers to the Spice Girls - if it moves me in some way, I like it. The biggest gripe I have is that sucessful music begets imitators. It seems that the record companies all have the same favorite song, "Send In The Clones". Elvis begat Fabian, and the Kingston Trio begat the Highwaymen. Dylan begat Donovan, etc.

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: CKrueger
Date: 20 Sep 99 - 10:54 PM

What a great read the latest postings have been. It's like leaving after good coffee and conversation--I have lots to think about, and will be wide awake for hours. Here are a couple of special thank-yous: lamarca, you mad me laugh out loud at the thought of the Jesus boom car. I can just hear and see it...and your former paper delivery person (?) had a close relative delivering to us... Bert took the simple stance that so many of us really won't admit to "If I don't like it--it's bad" Frank Hamilton wins for best pun--look for the nugget buried in the rock... Bryant did so very well at expressing what I think about Romanticism. Since you express what I feel (what a Romantic sort of notion) you are obviously a genius. Best wishes to all, and may all the music you hear be good. Or at least loud.

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: tuxedoll
Date: 20 Sep 99 - 08:32 PM

After reading 70-something entries, there probably isn't much I can say, but, again, we are, as a society, pretty much led about by the few in Madison Avenue, or it's equivalent. For the most part, music is marketed on the basis of what has already sold, and generated revenue. Music is a business, predicated on making money, and few people will gamble with the rent, so to speak. The indie labels are the only ones these days who can really take a risk, since they don't have that much money (read influence on the total picture (pardon my mixed metaphors) of the 'music scene'). Actually, the technology that lets us 'chat' like this, is allowing more and diversse music to become available to a wider audience, since the major expenses attached to the commercial release of an album can be avoided.

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: tuxedoll
Date: 20 Sep 99 - 08:32 PM

After reading 70-something entries, there probably isn't much I can say, but, again, we are, as a society, pretty much led about by the few in Madison Avenue, or it's equivalent. For the most part, music is marketed on the basis of what has already sold, and generated revenue. Music is a business, predicated on making money, and few people will gamble with the rent, so to speak. The indie labels are the only ones these days who can really take a risk, since they don't have that much money (read influence on the total picture (pardon my mixed metaphors) of the 'music scene'). Actually, the technology that lets us 'chat' like this, is allowing more and diversse music to become available to a wider audience, since the major expenses attached to the commercial release of an album can be avoided.

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: poet
Date: 20 Sep 99 - 07:27 PM

Bert I Know just What you mean When I sing to an audience I try to project the emotions that the song raises in me and I have varying degrees of success But every now and again I make a Complete cock up, yet the crowd applauds louder, I think its because to err is human and they can associate with that.


Graham(Guernsey)

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: Bryant
Date: 20 Sep 99 - 07:17 PM

This thread reminds me of a Literary Critical Theory course I took in graduate school. The whole semester was devoted to looking at how people have tried to define "good" literature (and by extention, art) through the ages. The answer seems to be that one's definition of "good art" depends on what criteria you're using. Examples?

Well, you could see it through some sort of moral lens. "Does this work edify the heart and mind? Does it appeal to our 'higher nature', our reason and sense of beauty? Or does it appeal to our 'baser instincts' -- sex and aggression, etc." That may sound kind of quaint and old-fasioned but lots of folks on the Mudcat can remember the objections to rock 'n roll in the '50s. "Look at those kids, they're gyrating their pelvises in PUBLIC!" Or think of the feminists of today who decry rap because the endless references to "bitches" and "'ho's" are demeaning to woman.

Or you could look at it as a matter of the structural properties of the work. "Does this work show the presence of an artist who has carefully worked the parts into a beautiful and organic whole?" There are a whole lot of people who would argue that a Bach fugue is far superior to any folk song you wish to name because the musical structure if far more sophisticated. In a fugue, there are themes and motifs developed in a tightly organized framework while most folk songs are simple, repetitive chord progressions.

Or there's a sort of Romantic way of seeing it. "Does this work stir the emotions? Was the artist passionate and emotionally honest in the creation of this work?" A lot of people will readily admit that Bob Dylan is neither the greatest singer nor guitarist but say that there is an incredibly brutal honesty in all of his work that transcends his lack of a beautiful voice and virtuoso guitar playing ability. (A fair number would take the moral approach to looking at Dylan's music too)

Sorry to get so philosophical but the point is that if we're going to discuss "why bad music sells" we ought to get our terms straight.

Personally, I'm pretty firmly in the Romantic camp when it comes to music. I like stuff presented with passion, conviction, and sincerity and sets off that little chill in my spine. Bach will do that but so do the Grateful Dead. Go figure.

Bryant

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Sep 99 - 04:36 PM

Harpy, you wanna know what bad music is? That's easy - it's the music my kids listen to. It used to be the music my parents listened to, but I'm not so sure about that now.

And actually, I'm not so sure about the kids' music any more. I can't the music my kids listen to is good, but I think I can say it's honest music. They're in their twenties now and have had time to develop their tastes, but my kids have never liked top-40 music. They seem to be repulsed by any music that smacks of commercialism. My kids' friends have similar tastes. I think it's unfair to say that kids have fallen prey to the big money of the music business. In many ways, I think the kids of today are less subject to the persuasive power of the music industry.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: Frank Hamilton
Date: 20 Sep 99 - 03:37 PM

I think this thread is a question of "aesthetics". To evaluate whether music is good or bad, we might have to ask what is it supposed to do and whether it meets that goal. I agree that we are today faced with the Cult of the Personality and this obscures the content of the music but this has always been the case in popular music. I believe that the answer to this question can only be a subjective one. It depends upon what you are listening for, both in terms of the music itself and the reasons why. I confess a liking for some music in every genre. I listen to everything I can. I am less attracted to heavy metal or grunge or violent rap but even in those areas, there is something there to recommend it. The thing is to mine the nugget which may be buried in the rock. (No pun intended). OK, what music do you consider to be good or bad? Micheal Jackson can sing and he can dance. Is that bad? Barry Manilow has a soft, easy quality that puts some to sleep but others find romantic. Is this bad? Jimmy Hendrix turned up the gain so that people's ears would bleed (I think that's bad) but he played a helluva guitar and was an exciting performer. Is that bad? Are the Spice Girls totally untalented? (I don't think so.) Are they bad? I guess I want people to be more specific and then we have something to talk about. How about Disco? (I personally loved K.C. and the Sunshine Band because they were fun.) You can dance to Disco. Is that bad? Now what's good? I think there's something good to be said of the preceding examples if you look for it. My 2 cents.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: annamill
Date: 20 Sep 99 - 03:28 PM

The complete uniqueness, beautiful creativity, and gentleness of your technique is the reason, Bert.

L.,A.

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 20 Sep 99 - 01:35 PM

The funny thing about all this is that everyone got wound up in the discussion, but no one gave any musical examples--so know one really knew what anyone else liked or didn't like--till right a the end, anyway--

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: Peter T.
Date: 20 Sep 99 - 01:35 PM

I think most of the teenage music I hear is successful for a number of quite good reasons. It was amusing to me the other night to hear a bad new folk album (by no one anyone here knows) and to realize that on almost every cut it did nothing for the first 12 bars, droned on after that, had no good tunes, had one guitar, and was full of references to obscure topics. To quote Buffy the Vampire Slayer: "Like she was never alive enough to be zombie material, really." In contrast, every teen song I know hooks you in about 1 second, repeats the best pattern over and over again until it has its claws into your mind, has incredible production values, is saturated in teen angst, has a tight beat, and moves. Potato chips are junk too, but people buy them for a reason.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: Bert
Date: 20 Sep 99 - 01:02 PM

harpgirl, That one's easy BAD MUSIC is simply music that I don't like.

lamarca, Re Sturgeon's Law I would say that the percentage is somewhere between 80 & 90. If you listen to a half hour radio show, for any kind of music, you will only hear one or two good numbers. I find that is even true of the Folk Music shows that I've heard.

But I've found that some of my 'not so good technically' songs seem to be the most popular. I wish I could figure out why.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: annamill
Date: 20 Sep 99 - 01:00 PM

AAAHHHHH!!! My opinion... kids today, like 10 years ago, like 20 years ago, like 50 years ago, and so on...listen to music that represents the world THEY live in. Elders today listen to music that represents the world they grew up in. In all phases, there is good and bad music. By good and bad, I mean technically. How else can you judge it? By taste?? Because it's what you listen to?? No. Only technically can we judge whats bad and good. How's the composition? How well are the instruments played? Do the voices work together in a harmony, no matter what's being sung or spoken? Are the lyrics creative and representative of an idea or ideal or an emotion?? Today's music is loud (my son has progressed(???) to screaming music; I think it's RAVE, I'm not sure. One group is called "CORN") and I don't enjoy listening to it, but some of the lyrics are creative. I don't think it's played much on the mainstream radio stations, but it's popular anyway.

Does mass media marketing create markets or do they respond to what is being bought?? Kids won't buy what they don't like, they change the station. I've seen it. If the people don't listen, the stations won't play it. Period.

I also don't feel that some of you are giving these kids credit for having any intelligence at all. If anything they are less susceptible to marketing than we are. They've been raised with it and well aware of the crap. Besides, we raised them and we taught them not to believe everything the see on TV. How many time have you said to yours "Don't believe everything you see on TV, Babe"?

Love, annap

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: Mudjack
Date: 20 Sep 99 - 12:39 PM

OK Davey, 6X, we got the message, you made up for a few times you did'nt post.
I don't care how many times this subject comes up, I still find it interesting and appreciate other's opinions and find that most of us agree with the fact that there is a lot of trash music out there making lots of money.
Ah yes, Michael Jackson, I failed before to see his so called talents but was quick to recognize hype when I saw it. Quincy Jones was the real talent(behind the scenes)while the Jackson fans(teenyboppers) were raving about how great he was, sudenly after bad press about his private life he "lost all his talent" and has nearly dissapeared into oblivian.
BEAT IT..All the way to the bank..Kids idolized the guy.
Mudjack

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: harpgirl
Date: 20 Sep 99 - 12:37 PM

...I'm confused...who has the definitive explanation for what "bad music" is???

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: Davey
Date: 20 Sep 99 - 12:13 PM

Wow, what an interesting thread... I don't get in here as often as I should, but I feel I need to add some comments. I think that the music today, at least that which gets commercially marketed, serves the corporate agenda, in that it caters to a generation who have been raised on McDonalds/Wall Marts and other mega enterprises where volume is the only criteria. Consumers are geared to mass marketing, 15 second sound bites, and journalistic rags that harp on the same topics over and over until the mind is numb and begins to believe all that is presented. In addition, most people are so overworked and stressed out that they can't take the time to actively seek out alternatives. Therefore they take the easy way out and 'go with the flow'. This applies to the music scene as well, where a glitzy presentation and catchy beat are more important than content. Poet strikes a chord (pun intended) when stating that one's musical taste is the product of age and energy. I've run the gamut of 50's and 60's rock 'n roll to the folk of today, and for me, the latter has much more meaning now because it speaks to current issues, not just the 'he loves me/she doesn't love me' crap that's endlessly repeated in different ways. Frank Hamilton, I liked your comment that Americans are not well educated musically. This applies to Canadians as well. Further than that, we are not well educated on many levels except for that which serves the corporate agenda. I'd better get off my soapbox before I get really wound up and end up writing a book.

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From:
Date: 20 Sep 99 - 09:59 AM

Lamarca, Yes but how MANY people do you see in public or in the media or in the mall or in the neighborhoods (unless you live in some academic enclave) get worked up about literature or painting? I have met only one or two people in my life who just said flatly that they did not like any music. Other than such oddities, everybody is a fan of something. I'd love to see a Winslow Homer video on MTV.

Chet

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Sep 99 - 09:23 AM

I'll third it. What scares me a little about this thread is that I'm a mediocre or worse musician playing and singing what, to those of more "refined" taste, are mediocre or worse songs. Many of the songs were written long ago by people with no formal training and no wish to write songs that would knock anyone's socks off. They wrote songs other mediocre musicians would and could play. The songs survived because of the "lowest common denominator." Many are beautiful in their simplicity, but a lot of formally trained musicians would call them "bad songs."

Pop music culture isn't about selling music as much as it is about selling "star" personalities, and coolness. It's been going on as far back as I can remember (the 60s). I like some of this music. Sometimes the "good" stuff gets discounted by folkies simply because it's popular.

And I wish I could sing as well as lamarca...

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Sep 99 - 11:17 PM

lamarca---I've taken the pledge and now I'd like to ask your permission for me to state on this and other threads of a similar nature/topic:

"Whatever lamarca says I'll second."

Hopefully you'll agree and I can save a lot of typing and extraneous thinking time.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: lamarca
Date: 19 Sep 99 - 11:03 PM

Oops, I meant "historically inaccurate" - Amadeus was a fun play/movie, whether or not Salieri really did try to poison young Wolfgang...I really felt for Salieri the moment he realized his own limitations and mediocrity in the face of Mozart's genius, having felt similar emotions listening to singers whose talent I do not and never will have...

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: lamarca
Date: 19 Sep 99 - 10:20 PM

Just coming back on after a bit...so replies to some older comments, and My Theory of What Makes Something "Good" vs. "Bad"-

CKrueger, we were sitting at a traffic light yesterday, and the music booming from the car next to us was HYMNS! The car was covered with "Jesus loves me but he can't stand you"-type bumper stickers. Not exactly Mega-bass Bach, but at least it wasn't rap. (Our newspaper delivery person used to make his rounds at 5:30AM playing rap music we could hearFEEL through our closed house windows. This stopped eventually - maybe someone shot him....)

Chet, people DO get just as vehement about other artistic forms; people who love "serious" modern literature scoff at those who read Steven King or Tom Clancy; "bad" writing abounds and sells just as well as "bad" music. One of the perennial controversies around DC is the proliferation of chain bookstores with mass-marketed stock driving small independent bookstores out of business, thus reducing the ability to find books not on the NY Times best-seller list.

Contemporary art goes through fads and fashions. A serious retrospective of Maxfield Parrish's work is now being exhibited and was written up in Smithsonian Magazine; Parrish was once regarded as a "mere" commercial artist of advertising posters and calendars. One criticism I've seen of Picasso is that in later years he played on the popularity of his name to sell the merest scribblings for exhorbitant sums.

I guess that for me, works of art, be they music, books or visual arts, become "bad" when the people making them don't seem to really care about their own work, and it shows in what they're producing. The author that churns out one more sequel to a popular book, the band that throws together a recording to catch the current trends, the painter that decides to regurgitate what sold before - all of them are sliding by rather than going to the labor to create something new and different.

This sells, because mostly people want the comfort and security of "more of the same" in what they read, listen to or look at. The primary styles may change for each succeeding generation or decade, but once people's tastes develop, they tend not to change much. Thus, advertisers market products today to the music that was popular when today's 40-50 year-olds were teens; we are supposed to get nostalgic and go out and buy that car or margerine or what-not.

When an artist who really cares creates a new sound or book or painting, a very few people from the older generation and more from the younger generation will appreciate it and buy it. If enough people start appreciating the new style, very soon less creative artists will jump on the bandwagon and make cheap imitations of the truly creative original. If it becomes popular, pretty soon the original is buried in a mound of dreck; but the original is STILL "good". Some of the derivative art may also be good; it all depends on how much the artist cares and is inspired to do his or her own interpretation.

Mind you, I realize that intent alone doesn't make something "good". There's a lot of earnest folks that lack the talent or spark to create an exceptionally well-crafted song, novel, sculpture, etc. As their goods enter the marketplace along side of true gems and cubic zirconia, they get bought, too. Perhaps people find "mediocre" less threatening than genius; however historically accurate, "Amadeus" examined this in the rivalry between Salieri and Mozart and people's reaction to their works.

Well, this has rambled enough - someone else's turn...

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 19 Sep 99 - 09:18 PM

I think that there is an answer to this one. It runs along the same lines as why did so many of us get caught up with buying second rate computers (PCs and I use one), support a softaware comapany (Microsoft) that has has written some of the worst operating systems that have ever been known, support VHS instead of the vastly superior Betamax... We might hide behind other reasons but isn't it possible that we are all to some degree led by marketing and use inferior products because of it.

Jon

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: j0_77
Date: 19 Sep 99 - 09:17 PM

Sure Harpgirl - xcept they also record and push a big heap of crap as well! BTW there is always a couple of 'hooks' on a CD ie the tracks that sell it - the rest is mostly average - back porch well rehearsed etc..

Which is why I want MP3 now - so I can get only the tracks I want.

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: kendall morse (don't use)
Date: 19 Sep 99 - 09:12 PM

That's simple, mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself.

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: harpgirl
Date: 19 Sep 99 - 08:50 PM

...gee whiz guys...I listen to an awful lot of teenage, popular, top forty music, alternative: all the stuff my son listens to...many of the singers sing extremely well, many of the musicians are the finest in studio work, a good deal of the music is like nothing else, creative and unusual, much of it uses the latest technology brilliantly and creatively...bad music is what you don't like personally isn't it? in regression analysis our folk music would plot as "outlyers"...does that make it better? If a giant meteorite or a world war or an asteroid hits the world and most of us perish, our oral tradition will include alot of this music...then it will be folk won't it? harpgirl

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Sep 99 - 07:53 PM

I have no idea about the boom guy...anymore idea than why I listened to what I did or anybody else does....especially as teens. Why some of the stuff continues to sell to the over 30 crowd, I have no idea either. I hate to say this heresy, but......maybe they like it. I know this is a real entertaining topic for soap box addicts as is "Why Johnny Can't Sing...or Read...or Blink" for that matter. We're all having fun here, but in the end there is no answer...just opinion. Mine ain't worth spit and yours all pretty well suck too!

Chet....Your last post was great, but the one before it was a winner too. I'll take the pledge too.......probably won't work dammit, no willpower..but I'm gonna' give it my best shot!

"My name is Catspaw and I'm a Rhetoricaholic."

Spaw

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: Ckrueger
Date: 19 Sep 99 - 07:18 PM

This topic isn't a new one. Bach in the midst of another conversation, sait "There is no sacred or secular music; there is only good music and bad music." I'm not sre what he meant by that. It is a fun topic to bandy about, as long as we don't take it too seriously. But nobody answered my question: Why isn't the guy with the boom car ever playing Vivaldi or Bach? Or Wagner? Or the Weavers, or the Irish Rovers, or Muddy Waters, or Ella Fitzgerald...you get the idea. Pax

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: Chet W.
Date: 19 Sep 99 - 05:16 PM

I'm just saying that this is a question without a real answer, although you're right it can make for an interesting discussion. I'm trying to think of an analogy; Could we give a really intellectually satisfying answer to the question "Should people be free and treated with dignity and respect?". Of course all people of good will know the answer to that, but can you really say why, without sprouting a circle of questions of equal difficulty? Like "Because they will be happier." Then comes, "Well why should they be happy when all of our ancestors lived for millions of years in what we would now call abject misery?" I think we'd all be happier spending our time making music and being with loved ones. But people seem to enjoy this argument; I personally have felt a whole lot better since I quit letting it bother me.

A voice of a little experience, hard won, Chet

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: wildlone
Date: 19 Sep 99 - 03:45 PM

Lets face it all,The kids buy it cos it p***'s us old fogeys off

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: Mudjack
Date: 19 Sep 99 - 03:31 PM

BAD is only a guage and often liked by those that are a part of it. I'm often reminded about "The Blues" and how it was scoffed at in it's time and considered bad taste and was listened to at speak easys. I once attended a concert of performance art music, meaning a bunch of street people beat on pans and and yelled at one another in the form of a mini musical play. I liked the recital (acting) but thought their music was simply terrible. Then someone commented how great it was that people can make music out of trash can lids and tapping on wine bottles. I failed to see or hear any music , just a lot of noise going no where.
Ah yes. RAP... likely "the blues of tommorrow" not much in it's day but re-examined in the future like the blues , might re surface as America's greatest form of music.
I have chastised the media's control but in all honesty, the music made by Kingston Trio, Limeliters and the Weavers lured me into the want of making music. They were un-mistakenly POP of the time. (yes, the same Weavers Frank banjo'ed and sang for). Yes, also the same media that managed to blacklist a group for their political affiliation.The music certainly was the best, but government agencies and the powers in being wanted them shut down. Little was heard from the Weavers in those dark days.THAT WAS BAD. This is a reversal of what the thread is all about , Why good music does'nt sell.
your opinionated snob, Mudjack

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: Frank Hamilton
Date: 19 Sep 99 - 02:36 PM

Chet,

I think it's interesting to talk about. I'm just not sure that you can really define "good" and "bad" music that carefully without specifics. "Good or bad" to whom and for what reason?

I see certain tunes containing lryics that send unhealthy messages to kids but this is true for folk music as well as pop. Songs about grizzly murders from Appalachia are no nicer in content than some of the "Gangsta Rap" that you hear. If we are talking about music that some would deem "puerile", well hell, that's nothing new in any musical genre or era. Growing up in the forties I heard a lot of sappy popular music that had very little edifying content but then there were those great songwriters such as Berlin, Arlen, Carmicheal, Mercer et.al. who made that era look pretty good. It's probably not too much different now. The problem with this discussion is that so far I don't believe it's been discussed. We need specifics and then we have something to talk about. What "good" and "bad" music? And why?

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: Chet W.
Date: 19 Sep 99 - 01:35 PM

I should have stuck with my self-pledge to not get involved in this subject anymore, but, if the realities of this situation really bother you, do yourself a favor and let it go. It will never change (It's never really been any different) and the anxiety over it can only take away from your healthy passion for the meaningful music you love. I've been there.

Chet

Subject: RE: Why does bad music sell?
From: Frank Hamilton
Date: 19 Sep 99 - 12:28 PM

It seems to me that there is a case for judging music good or bad in every genre including folk music. I think music can be good and bad at the same time. Some songs can be well-crafted with interesting tunes and have negative messages or violent themes. Some great lryics can have pedestrian melodies and vice versa. If we're talking about music on the AM radio, today, a lot has to do with the fact that the American public is not being well-educated when it comes to music. The schools aren't doing it well because it's not considered important enough. So much of what we consider good or bad is subjective and knowledge of different kinds of music is important. Then is music "Good and bad" for whom?

Frank Hamilton