Lyr Req: Skewball (Bebbington #206)

Subject: Skewball: Bebbington (No. 206)
From: GUEST,Seán.
Date: 11 May 11 - 09:11 AM

Anybody know where I could locate a copy of the John O. Bebbington (Manchester, mid. 19th C) broadside printing of "Skewball", ("Scew Ball" etc)?

As far as I know, it is listed as "Bebbington (No. 206)"

Go raibh maith agaibh.

Subject: Lyr Req: Skewball (Bebbington #206)
From: GUEST,Seán
Date: 12 May 11 - 05:47 AM

Anybody know where I could locate a copy of the John O. Bebbington (Manchester, mid. 19th C) broadside printing of "Skewball", ("Scew Ball" etc)?

As far as I know, it is listed as "Bebbington (No. 206)"

Go raibh maith agaibh.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Skewball (Bebbington #206)
From: EBarnacle
Date: 12 May 11 - 07:43 AM

Use the search feature and enter "Skewball was a racehorse." There are 4 citations which come up.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Skewball (Bebbington #206)
From: EBarnacle
Date: 12 May 11 - 08:04 AM

I can't help you with the broadside but Doc Watson also has recorded this song.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Skewball (Bebbington #206)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 12 May 11 - 08:09 AM

Joan Baez also recorded it.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Skewball (Bebbington #206)
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 12 May 11 - 08:27 AM

I can't trace the Bebbington printing; where does that reference come from?

According to the Roud Index, where this song has the Roud number #456, there were broadsides printed by a number of different printers, but neither Bebbington nor his successor Pearson appear among them.

You can find broadsides by some of these printers in the Bodleian Collection by searching for Scew Ball, Skew Ball and Skewball.

Matthew

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Skewball (Bebbington #206)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 11 - 10:32 AM

@Matthew,

The reference is in Dorothy Scarborough's book "ON THE TRAIL OF NEGRO FOLK-SONGS":

P.61/2

" Professor Kittredge says: "Skewball is Irish. I enclose a text. The piece is com­mon in English broadsides. Readings vary in details. You will note that the Squire is the owner, not the judge. It's obviously absurd for the Squire to talk to the rider (as in stanza 5). Probably, if we had a correct text, it would be Skewball who addresses the rider — just as he spoke to his master in an earlier stanza. That would be a good touch. And, in fact, in one version (in a broadside) I find — in addition to the stanza in which the Squire speaks to the rider — the following:

'When that they came to the middle of the course,
Skewball and his rider began a discourse,
Come, my brave rider, come tell unto me,
How far is Miss Grizzle this moment from me.'

This is a Manchester (England) broadside (Bebbington, No. 206). In this version the mare with whom Skewball races is called 'Miss Grizzle."'



It's the "Miss Grizzle" reference I'm interested in, as I haven't come across it in any other English broadsides - only in Irish versions.

Seán.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Skewball (Bebbington #206)
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 12 May 11 - 10:44 AM

Thanks for that Seán. I think Steve Gardham might be the best person to help out here, I'll ask him to see if he can shed some light on this.

Matthew

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Skewball (Bebbington #206)
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 12 May 11 - 11:39 AM

@ Seán

I've sent Steve a PM, and I expect he'll answer as soon as he can.

The naming of Skewball's opposition as "Miss Grizzle" in the Bebbington broadside is very distinctive; all the other broadsides that I can see in the Bodleian name the grey mare as Maid Sportly or Miss Sportly, or even Miss Portsley. If the citation come from Kittredge, presumably the broadside was in an American collection?

Matthew

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Skewball (Bebbington #206)
From: EBarnacle
Date: 12 May 11 - 12:06 PM

Didn't Kitteriedge also collect in the British Isles?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Skewball (Bebbington #206)
From: GUEST,Seán
Date: 13 May 11 - 09:15 AM

@Matthew,

Yeah, I'd imagine it's housed somewhere in America, alright.   I've contacted the archives section of Manchester Public Libraries, as they have a number of Bebbington/Pearson ballad sheets, but they have no record of "Bebbington, #206"   I've come across aother version which has the exact verse above, and most importantly, cites "Miss Grizzle."   It was printed by Alexander Mayne, High Street, Belfast.   If I can get my hands on the Bebbington version and compare them, it will unlock a few doors for me.   Here's hoping!

Thanks for the help, a chara.

(Would you know when Mayne was active in Belfast?   1880s???)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Skewball (Bebbington #206)
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 13 May 11 - 09:34 AM

Maynes dates and dates of occupancy of various addresses in Belfast are:

Mayne, Alexander, 1852-1887
A Mayne 36 High Street (Slater Ulster 1852)
Alexander Mayne, 7½ High Street (1854-67) (Neilands)
34 High Street        1852 (QUB xff Z152/1/BROADSIDES)
7 1/2 High Street 1854 – 67 (QUB xff Z152/1/BROADSIDES)
        +Corporation Street 1868 (QUB xff Z152/1/BROADSIDES)
        Died 1887 (QUB xff Z152/1/BROADSIDES)
The sources of these dates and locations are documented in my thesis "The printed ballad in Ireland: a guide to the popular printing of songs in Ireland, 1760-1920" (NUI Galway, 2006). Mayne suceeded Joseph Smyth in 34 High Street in 1852. A possible confusions exists which I state in the thesis:
"Martin's Directory 1841-2 gives a Mayne, Alex. S, Collector of Water Tax, Publisher &c, 1 Donegal Square East (alphabetical) and lists him also, under Trades, as Bookseller and Stationer at the same address. I conjecture this is a different Mayne, perhaps the ballad printer's father. The British Library has a single item published by A. S. Mayne in 1852 when Alex Mayne was succeeding Joseph Smyth at 34 High Street. Care is needed to distinguish between them."

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Skewball (Bebbington #206)
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 11 - 09:56 AM

Go raibh maith agat, John.   Much appreciated.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Skewball (Bebbington #206)
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 13 May 11 - 10:19 AM

The GR Axon collection at Chetham's Library also has a good selection of Bebbington broadsides, but not the one you are looking for.

Given Kittredge's involvement it might be worth contacting the Houghton Library at Harvard; I can't find my way into their online catalogue, but you may have better luck.

Matthew

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Skewball (Bebbington #206)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 May 11 - 06:04 PM

I don't have any Manchester printings of Skewball and I have seen all the sources so far mentioned. Harkness is the nearest geographically, but I'll check all my copies to see which other horses are mentioned. If you want to identify the race itself the 'Turf Register' would be a good place to start.

Here goes. These are immediately accessible copies.

Miss Sportly:    Evans, Jennings, Pitts and Birt all of London and Walker, Durham

Maid Sportly:    Ford, Chesterfield, Forth, Pocklington, Harkness, Preston + a No Imprint stock no 136

Miss Sportsly: Croshaw, York and a no imprint

Miss Portsley:          Stephenson, Gateshead

Miss Sportley:    Wright Birmingham

Miss Grizzle:      Mayne, Belfast reprinted by James Healy in Old Irish Street Ballads vol 3.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Skewball (Bebbington #206)
From: GUEST,Seán
Date: 18 May 11 - 05:12 AM

@ Matthew.

I've contacted the Houghton Library, but version Bebbington #206 is not among the Kittredge Papers.

Back to Square One, I'm afraid......

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Skewball (Bebbington #206)
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 18 May 11 - 07:15 AM

@ Seán

That's a pity; it was a long shot, but worth a try. One problem is that although there are a number of institutions and libraries which hold collections of broadsides, not all of them have got very detailed catalogues, and I'm sure there are some instances where the libraries themselves don't know what they've got!

It may be worth posting your query to the Pedlars Pack:Broadside and Chapbook Research Group.

Here in the North West of England the Harkness Collection of Broadsides at the Preston Harris Library, Lancashire County Libraries, has a large collection of broadsides by printers besides Harkness, and could be worth exploring.

Matthew

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Skewball (Bebbington #206)
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 11 - 05:50 AM

Thanks, Matthew.   Much appreciated.

Seeing as how the verse mentioned by Kittredge is pretty much the same as the Mayne printing (particularly with "Miss Grizzle"), would it be too much of a presumption to say that they are, in fact, the same version? (ie, if the trail for Bebbington 206 evevtually runs cold)   If so, would this particular version have come to England from Ireland, or vice versa?   

Bebbington 206:

"When that they came to the middle of the course,
Skewball and his rider began a discourse,
'Come, my brave rider, come tell unto me,
How far is Miss Grizzle this moment from me.'"

Mayne:

"When Sky Ball he came to the middle of the course
Himself and his jockey began to discourse,
'Come tell me brave rider, come tell unto me,
How far is Miss Grizzle this instant from me.'"



Seán.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Skewball (Bebbington #206)
From: GUEST,Seán
Date: 30 May 11 - 05:44 AM

*Bump*

Seán