BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally

Subject: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: bobad
Date: 14 May 11 - 09:47 AM

An Iranian woman, blinded and disfigured from having had acid thrown in her face by a spurned suitor, has been granted the right, under sharia law, to blind her attacker with five drops of sulfuric acid in each eye.

Story here

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 11 - 09:59 AM

The punishment has been postponed.
Maybe they will think again.

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: bobad
Date: 14 May 11 - 10:04 AM

A news report on Al Jazeera said it was to be carried out on Sunday.

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 May 11 - 10:12 AM

Yuk. It's a good job civilised countries don't carry on like that.

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: gnu
Date: 14 May 11 - 11:41 AM

Sick bastards... including the guy.

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 May 11 - 01:04 PM

Agreed, gnu. Nevertheless, R Bridge ~ your last remark:~ Beware of racism, won't you?

~M~

I mean, we all know that 'civilisation' is what R Bridge declares it to be, as my quote from that personal lexicon on another thread demonstrated; but still, mind how you go.

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 May 11 - 02:05 PM

MtheGM, perhaps you should beware of sarcasm.

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 May 11 - 02:21 PM

Your point, Jack?

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: gnu
Date: 14 May 11 - 02:44 PM

M... Richard's comment is fairly accurate.

I believe civilized countries would not allow religious laws at all.

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 May 11 - 02:49 PM

I, the pacifist, am kind of for this. At least they aren't being hypocritical about their faith.

Just read it got postponed, anyway...

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 14 May 11 - 02:56 PM

What's even more outrageous is that, as the blinded woman says she's afraid to get acid on her hands, a doctor was going to 'administer' the 5 drops of sulphuric acid in each eye. How on earth could any doctor agree to do something like that?? I've heard that amputation punishments are also undertaken by medical staff. I find that extrememly sinister.

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: michaelr
Date: 14 May 11 - 05:35 PM

How different is that from doctors supervising executions here in the US?

Barbarism is a matter of degrees.

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: skipy
Date: 14 May 11 - 05:41 PM

hhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
The oath:-
I swear by Apollo, the healer, Asclepius, Hygieia, and Panacea, and I take to witness all the gods, all the goddesses, to keep according to my ability and my judgment, the following Oath and agreement:
To consider dear to me, as my parents, he who taught me this art; to live in common with him and, if necessary, to share my goods with him; To look upon his children as my own brothers, to teach them this art.

I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone.

I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion.

But I will preserve the purity of my life and my arts.

I will not cut for stone, even for patients in whom the disease is manifest; I will leave this operation to be performed by practitioners, specialists in this art.

In every house where I come I will enter only for the good of my patients, keeping myself far from all intentional ill-doing and all seduction and especially from the pleasures of love with women or with men, be they free or slaves.

All that may come to my knowledge in the exercise of my profession or in daily commerce with men, which ought not to be spread abroad, I will keep secret and will never reveal.

If I keep this oath faithfully, may I enjoy my life and practice my art, respected by all men and in all times; but if I swerve from it or violate it, may the reverse be my lot.
"
On the other hand, she has been totally blind for 7 years & will never marry, so maybe he deserves it, but not from a doctor, one of her relatives could do it or the prison system.

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: gnu
Date: 14 May 11 - 05:47 PM

"How different is that from doctors supervising executions here in the US?"

It is NOT a painless execution... it is a horribly painful maiming. Me? I say painlessly execute the fucker. His crime is worse than murder.

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 May 11 - 06:45 PM

Don't blind him, kill him... That's an interesting kind of mercy.

Can't say I'd worry too much about the sentenced man as such - getting what he deserves. But being involved in carrying out a sentence like this isn't something that anyone should have to live with, even if they think they want to, in the case of the victim and her family. So I hope it won't happen.

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 May 11 - 06:54 PM

Gnu ~ re R Bridge: I take your point; but he is an expert in motes & beams, have you not noticed?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: andrew e
Date: 14 May 11 - 11:38 PM

If it's wrong in the first place, then it follows it's wrong in the second place.
Does the first wrong make the second one right?

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: J-boy
Date: 14 May 11 - 11:44 PM

What a lovely and noble species we are.

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 15 May 11 - 05:40 AM

Well said, Andrew e.

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: alanabit
Date: 15 May 11 - 06:29 AM

I think the ethical problem we face here is the same as we face with the death penalty or any other form of punishment, in which retribution is the main factor. The man may well deserve the punishment, but do we wish to be the sort of people who carry out this sort of revenge? I would hesitate to make too many boasts for our form of "civilisation", but I am very glad that the societies in which I live do not adopt this form of punishment officially.

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 15 May 11 - 06:36 AM

That's sharia law, the law of Islam ... most western countries practice Common Law, or the law of precedents or Napoleonic law.

Anyway ... we think Sharia Law is crazy .... and the ones who believe in Sharia Law think we who practice Common or Napoleonic Law are crazy.

Two different extreme cultures.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: bobad
Date: 15 May 11 - 06:37 AM

From Wikipedia:

The meaning of the principle, an eye for an eye, is that a person who has injured another person receives the same injury in compensation. The exact Latin (lex talionis) to English translation of this phrase is actually "The law of retaliation." At the root of this principle is that one of the purposes of the law is to provide equitable retribution for an offended party.

The phrase, "an eye for an eye", (ayin tachat ayin, literally 'an eye in place of an eye'), is a quotation from several passages of the Hebrew Bible [1][2][3] in which a person who has injured the eye of another is instructed to pay compensation. It defined and restricted the extent of retribution in the laws of the Torah.

The English word talion means a punishment identical to the offense, from the Latin talio. The principle of "an eye for an eye" is often referred to using the Latin phrase lex talionis, the law of talion.

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 15 May 11 - 06:38 AM

cklarification ..... "Common Law, or the law of precedents" ... I meant they are the same .... thought I better mention this before someone start attacking my post.

biLL   .... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 15 May 11 - 06:48 AM

Surely simple human compassion would revolt at the very idea of callously pouring acid in a person's eyes to deliberately blind him? The fact HE did it to the woman was a wicked thing, but to do the very same thing is just as wicked. How COULD anyone bring themselves to do it??

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: bobad
Date: 15 May 11 - 06:52 AM

"How COULD anyone bring themselves to do it??"

Ask that of the woman who was blinded and disfigured, who are we to sit in judgment of her.

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 15 May 11 - 07:22 AM

Most revolting of this case I find is how someone (the bad guy) could possess such evil as to perform an act of such evil.

Most important is that Sharia Law allowed the perpatrator to have his day in court .... ;-)

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 15 May 11 - 07:30 AM

and I should add .... though we may be shocked and disagree with the verdict and sentence in both Sharia Law and our own Comomon Law we do allow the accused to have 'their day in court' ... if the verdict in such a case was handed down by vigilante process then society is truly barbarian in nature.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 May 11 - 10:56 AM

The original crime was heinous enough. The punishment just compounds the original heinous act. Why would that bring any satisfaction to the original victim?

There has to be a better way for such a convicted man to pay for his crime.

There are some societies (in the Gurage tribal area of Ethiopia) where even murderers are punished by being required to do work for the victim's family for years, to help compensate for their loss. I always thought that was more fair punishment for a crime of passion than execution.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: bobad
Date: 15 May 11 - 11:10 AM

That is an excellent solution Charley, he should be made to be her "seeing eye dog" for the rest of her life and do for her the things she is unable to do for herself.

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: GUEST,Wolfgang momentarily without cookie
Date: 15 May 11 - 12:05 PM

Wasn't "eye for an eye" originally meant as a call to moderation in revenge? Meant to not kill someone who has punched my nose? Like so many religious rules it made a lot of sense in a particular historical context. Like so many religious rules and prescriptions it has lost any sense when used, true to the letter, out of its historical context today.

Without any pity for that man, one just has to say no to this punishment.

Wolfgang

Much less serious PS: I wish the "eye for an eye" rule would actually be used in that country in cases of adultery. Your spouse has cheated on you? That'd give you the officially acknowledged right to cheat on her/him in retaliation. (One even could sell tickets for watching the public execution...)

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 May 11 - 12:07 PM

That is an excellent solution Charley, he should be made to be her "seeing eye dog" for the rest of her life and do for her the things she is unable to do for herself.
======
Oh, yes ~~ she will love to have him constantly around her for the rest of her life, won't she?!

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 May 11 - 12:24 PM

It seems no-one has noticed that I was criticising those from allegedly civilised countries who espouse revenge, for example against Osama bin Laden.

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 May 11 - 12:35 PM

MtheGM-

"Oh, yes ~~ she will love to have him constantly around her for the rest of her life, won't she?!"

Unlikely, I'd agree but maybe there's some other service that he could be required to provide, such as cleaning the latrines for 20 years at a home for the visually impaired. I suppose that "donating" parts of his eyes to a blind person might also be appropriate. Why destroy a perfectly good set of eyes? I'm not sure what should be done with his brain.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 May 11 - 02:35 PM

One aspect of the legal system involved is that it allows for the situation where the victim or the victim's family in the case of murder, may choose to exercise mercy towards the perpetrator.

That is not possible under our system, where the wishes of the victim are seen as irrelevant - the offence is seen purely as a matter between the criminal and the state.

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: SRD
Date: 15 May 11 - 06:40 PM

There is a difference between the breaking of the law, for which criminals can be punished according to the law, often by invoking treatment that would otherwise be illegal (e.g. incarceration) and the claiming of recompense by a victim against the malefactor. Some jurisdictions allow for a degree of recompense to be included in the 'criminal' trial others require that demand to be separately administered. Personally I know that the driver who caused the accident that occasioned severe damage to my person was convicted in the courts for 'Driving Without Due Care and Attention' and I was recompensed to the tune of £100k or so (by the insurance he took out) for the damage done to me according to pre-determined rates. Both State and individual were relatively satisfied. Although not perfect it seems to me a suitably civilised way of going about things.

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 May 11 - 06:53 PM

Yuk. It's a good job civilised countries don't carry on like that.

Yeah, the civilised countries just electrocute 'em, waterboard 'em, hang 'em, shoot 'em, &c &c &c.....

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 May 11 - 08:09 PM

McGrath-

"One aspect of the legal system involved is that it allows for the situation where the victim or the victim's family in the case of murder, may choose to exercise mercy towards the perpetrator.

That is not possible under our system, where the wishes of the victim are seen as irrelevant - the offence is seen purely as a matter between the criminal and the state."

My very point. The British legal system and its not publicly acknowledged off-spring here in the States is an abomination when it comes to administrating "justice."

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 16 May 11 - 03:10 AM

I was digusted to hear about the acid attack and equally disgusted about the eye for an eye acid revenge that the lady wishes to carry out on her attacker. I appreciate the fact that she wants to see justice done because of her disfigurment but all in all I am sick and tired of all the cruelty happening in the world at this moment.

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: Musket
Date: 16 May 11 - 04:27 AM

I hold no candle for Sharia. I prefer that justice is delivered cold by objective learned people who try to rise above emotion. Also, two wrongs don't make a right, and the march of civilisation should be to show something is wrong, not emulate the crime, giving it some form of perverse respectability.

Sharia is, if I have been reliably informed, a form of community based arbitration. It has Islamic scripture at its heart, as it is practiced by Islamic communities anyway.

I am not convinced that this appalling decision has any bearing on whether local arbitration by "elders" is in itself bad, especially as the first test of such arbitration is that both sides agree to respect the outcome.

Of course, it would be naive to stop just there. Pressure as applied when you live in a religious state dictates you agree the outcome because you would not be a Muslim if you didn't. (Spanish inquisition had a similar logic trap.)

So, this is not about whether local arbitration is good or bad, but just the terms of invoking superstition and scripture. In that regard, I think the Iranian system does religion no favours whatsoever. I am irreligious, but accept that many friends of mine would be uncomfortable to be told that this is an aspect of their creed, their way of life and by proxy, their barbarism.

Incidentally, there are two countries where clergy have the constitutional right to affect law. Iran and The UK. think about that...... The Ayatollahs have the same standing as the Bishops in The Lords. All other countries, regardless of their traditions and beliefs, separate state from cloth. Turkey has a far higher percentage of believers than The UK, yet if their secular government system is under threat, the balloon goes up till the Imams back off.

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 11 - 07:34 AM

...she wants to see justice done...

She couldn't, since she's blind in both eyes.

I hope it won't happen. That kind of "justice" is corrosive to everyone involved.

Perhaps they could make him wear a blindfold for the rest of his life. Better still if he could volunteer to do that, in recognition of what he did.

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 May 11 - 08:25 AM

"Justice" is also blind, as least as we depict her in sculpture.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: gnu
Date: 16 May 11 - 03:42 PM

"One aspect of the legal system involved is that it allows for the situation where the victim or the victim's family in the case of murder, may choose to exercise mercy towards the perpetrator.

That is not possible under our system, where the wishes of the victim are seen as irrelevant - the offence is seen purely as a matter between the criminal and the state."

It is the case in Canada where "victim impact statements" are allowed before sentencing. The victims or their families can speak and say whatever they want including pleas for mercy. The judge and the law have the final say, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 May 11 - 08:31 PM

I'll agree that the punishment is barbaric, as was the crime. I'd like to note one thing, however: in this case, a man is being punished for committing a crime against a woman. In too many places in this world, men can commit crimes against women with little fear of punishment.

I have a question - how is religious law any better or worse than non-religious law? Law and punishment, it seems to me, is based on the cultural standards prevalent in a society. Whether it is religious or not, really shouldn't make a difference. If it is religious law, it exists because that is what is considered proper by that society's cultural standards. My contention is that ALL law is primarily cultural. It may also be religious, but only because the culture is religious.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 May 11 - 11:59 PM

Good point indeed, Joe. But is it not also relevant whether the Laws in question are accepted consensually by the people, being ones that the majority would approve and in general in such societies, legislated by a body explicitly approved for the purpose by a majority of the people; or non-consensual, imposed on the majority be a minority group which has by some means gained power ~~ which can of course occur either in a religious [Inquisition, Sharia] or a secular [Cromwellian Commonwealth, Stalinism, Cultural Revolution] context?

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: Musket
Date: 18 May 11 - 03:47 AM

I both see and respect the point that Joe Offer has made.

However, my problem is that whilst we could have a philosophical discussion about morality and the part religion can / cannot play in it... The fact is that when religion is used as a law totem, we are judging today by yesterday's standards. Scriptures relate to human behaviour a couple of thousand years ago, an age of superstition and defending such superstitions created the many ethnic communities.

Today, a secular take on law embraces everybody who wishes to live in a community, whether they believe in a sect, are irreligious or resent fantasy having a bearing on their lives. Religious law would be relevant if everybody in the country believed the same. As they patently don't and I would argue never should be forced to, then secular law is the only answer.

Also, I would argue that religions are fighting a rearguard action at present, as more people around the world base their judgements on more than their local preacher's direction. Communication, media and education in general make religions as we see them increasingly irrelevant. The challenge for religious leaders in planning the next couple of thousand years is not to look at numbers of adherents in order to justify a stance, but to ask if such a stance can be justified to the rest of the human race who aren't card carrying members. If not, the invaluable comfort blanket that faith can give people will wither away. There is a place for religion, many people need it, but its place is not in courts of law.

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: bobad
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 06:34 AM

31 July 2011 Last updated at 04:37 ET

Iranian sentenced to blinding for acid attack pardoned

   An Iranian man who was ordered to be blinded for carrying out an acid attack on a woman has been pardoned by his victim, state television has said.

Ameneh Bahrami had demanded qisas, a rarely used retributive justice under Sharia law, but the report said she had foregone that right at the last minute.

A court had backed Ms Bahrami's demand in 2008 that Majid Movahedi be blinded.

He attacked Ms Bahrami in 2004 after she had refused his offer of marriage, leaving her severely disfigured.

Rights group Amnesty International had lobbied against the sentence, calling it "cruel and inhuman punishment amounting to torture".
Mother's praise

The state television website reported: "With the request of Ameneh Bahrami, the acid attack victim, Majid (Movahedi) who was sentenced for 'qisas' was pardoned at the last minute."
Continue reading the main story

The Isna news agency quoted Tehran prosecutor Abbas Jafari Dolatabadi as saying: "Today in hospital the blinding of Majid Movahedi was to have been carried out in the presence of an eye specialist and judiciary representative, when Ameneh pardoned him."

Isna quoted Ms Bahrami as saying: "I struggled for seven years with this verdict to prove to people that the person who hurls acid should be punished through 'qisas', but today I pardoned him because it was my right.

"I did it for my country, since all other countries were looking to see what we would do."

Ms Bahrami was quoted on Iranian TV as saying: "I never wanted to have revenge on him. I just wanted the sentence to be issued for retribution. But I would not have carried it out. I had no intention of taking his eyes from him."

Mr Dolatabadi told Isna that Ms Bahrami had demanded "blood money", or compensation, for her injuries.

He praised her "courageous act" of pardon, adding: "The judiciary was serious about implementing the verdict."

Ms Bahrami said she had never received any money from the man's family, saying she was seeking only compensation for medical fees, which she put at 150,000 euros ($216,000: £131,000).

She said: "He wont be freed. He has a sentence, which he has to serve for 10-12 years of which he has done seven. Unless the full compensation is paid, he won't be freed."

Isna quoted Ms Bahrami's mother as saying: "I am proud of my daughter... Ameneh had the strength to forgive Majid. This forgiveness will calm Ameneh and our family."

Source: BBC News

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: saulgoldie
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 06:51 AM

There is great power in forgiveness.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 08:36 AM

Saul .... I fully agree.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 09:15 AM

Bobad,

When you started this thread, I expected it to be just more Islamobashing. But your approach has been much more balanced and nuanced than that and I think, fair. You even said a thing or two I might have said, myself. I must give credit where it is due. Good job.

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: bobad
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 09:53 AM

"When you started this thread, I expected it to be just more Islamobashing."

Jack, this comment can be construed as an implication that I am prone to being a basher of Islam. If that was your intention I categorically refute it as a blatant untruth. If you presume that my support of Israel necessarily makes me anti Muslim you are mistaken. I always take pains to clarify that what I oppose is Islamism not Islam. If you are unclear as to the difference between the two this may help: Muslim vs. Islamism.

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 10:00 AM

Bobad,

What I am saying is that I thought that about you but I don't any more. For what it is worth, and I suspect that is not worth much to you, You have earned a measure of respect from me.

A lot of people who take a pro-Israel position are constantly trying to stir up anti Muslim sentiment. I thought you were one of them. I am glad I was wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 11:24 AM

"There is great power in forgiveness."

Obviously there is even more power in the receipt of £130,000.

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 11:47 AM

akenaton,

I get your point ake, but I don't know if I fully agree.


"Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: kendall
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 12:34 PM

"An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth only makes the whole world blind and toothless." (M. Gandhi)

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: gnu
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 02:47 PM

Good on her! Still, I think she should at least kick him in the nuts.

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 02:56 PM

He's getting a $216,000.00 kick in the nuts which, as I understand it, if he doesn't pay he stays in prison after his sentence is up.

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 02:57 PM

Hopefully this case will discourage young males from further acid attacks on young women who are not receptive to their proposals.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 03:15 PM

Well Jack......If some reptile had blinded and disfigured any daughter of mine, I would make bloody sure the bastard did it to no other.

Subject: RE: BS: An Eye For An Eye....Literally
From: gnu
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 04:01 PM

Well, ake, I certainly understand that. I just hope that you would have the common sense to wait until the right moment and plan it well enough so you didn't get caught.