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BS: Met PC to stand trial for manslaughter

Fred McCormick 24 May 11 - 10:13 AM
John MacKenzie 24 May 11 - 11:16 AM
MGM·Lion 24 May 11 - 11:29 AM
Joe Offer 24 May 11 - 01:03 PM
Abdul The Bul Bul 24 May 11 - 01:06 PM
MGM·Lion 24 May 11 - 01:16 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 May 11 - 02:30 PM
John MacKenzie 24 May 11 - 03:09 PM
GUEST,Eliza 24 May 11 - 03:16 PM
Richard Bridge 24 May 11 - 03:27 PM
Fred McCormick 24 May 11 - 03:36 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 May 11 - 04:11 PM
Abdul The Bul Bul 25 May 11 - 03:05 AM
Dave Hanson 25 May 11 - 05:14 AM
GUEST,Patsy 25 May 11 - 07:09 AM
MGM·Lion 25 May 11 - 07:51 AM
GUEST,Eliza 25 May 11 - 08:01 AM
GUEST,Patsy 25 May 11 - 08:41 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 May 11 - 09:02 AM
YorkshireYankee 25 May 11 - 10:06 PM
banjoman 26 May 11 - 06:14 AM
Arnie 26 May 11 - 07:18 AM
Fred McCormick 27 May 11 - 10:07 AM
McGrath of Harlow 27 May 11 - 02:43 PM
gnu 27 May 11 - 02:50 PM
bubblyrat 28 May 11 - 02:09 PM
GUEST,Doc John 28 May 11 - 06:06 PM

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Subject: BS: Met PC to stand trial for manslaughter
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 24 May 11 - 10:13 AM

I've just heard on the lunchtime news that Pc Simon Harwood is to be tried for the manslaughter of Ian Tomlinson at the G20 demonstration in London in April 2009.

Coming so soon after the Stephen Lawrence breakthrough, this is welcome news indeed. I can remember a time when a case like that would never have come to court. Harwood's superiors would simply have patted him on the back and told him to be more careful in future.

Both cases indicate that the days when the Police were a law unto themselves are over.


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Subject: RE: BS: Met PC to stand trial for manslaughter
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 May 11 - 11:16 AM

Met PC means Metropolitan Police Constable.
For our friends across the pond who may imagine an assignation with a Personal Computer, to arrange a killing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Met PC to stand trial for manslaughter
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 May 11 - 11:29 AM

Fred ~~ Agreed once again. What can be happening!

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Met PC to stand trial for manslaughter
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 May 11 - 01:03 PM

Thanks, John-
I was wondering if this was supposed to be a tech thread. I think people in the British Isles use abbrevations far more often than we do on this side of the pond.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Met PC to stand trial for manslaughter
From: Abdul The Bul Bul
Date: 24 May 11 - 01:06 PM

I think the number of mobile phone/street cameras around has had more of an influence on this than any change of police policy.
They can't deny what we can see in detail.
Al


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Subject: RE: BS: Met PC to stand trial for manslaughter
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 May 11 - 01:16 PM

===I think people in the British Isles use abbrevations far more often than we do on this side of the pond.===

LoL IMO ROTFL IIRC YMMV

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Met PC to stand trial for manslaughter
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 11 - 02:30 PM

What really needs to be done is identify all those involved in trying to cover up the circumstances of Ian Tomlinson's death, and get rid of them.

That's a different matter from whether PC Harwood gets convicted or not. Even if he were found not guilty, a cover-up like that should never be tolerated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Met PC to stand trial for manslaughter
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 May 11 - 03:09 PM

They back each other up, right or wrong Kevin. It's a common thing in all walks of life.
It even happens on Mudcat I believe ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Met PC to stand trial for manslaughter
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 May 11 - 03:16 PM

Abdul i agree. If there hadn't been video evidence, I don't believe they'd have taken it further. The attack on Mr Tomlinson was vicious and unprovoked IMO. It brought shame on our Police, and the perpetrator must face the court.


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Subject: RE: BS: Met PC to stand trial for manslaughter
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 May 11 - 03:27 PM

Manslaughter my arse (the other Tomlinson).

OK we no longer have the "felony/misdemeanour" distinction over here, but remember the old rule "Killing in the commission of a felony"?

See the films of the way the copper laid into the entirely peaceful Tomlinson with a long baton? That's GBH. The intent to commit GBH is sufficient mens rea for murder.


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Subject: RE: BS: Met PC to stand trial for manslaughter
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 24 May 11 - 03:36 PM

Joe. Sorry for the confusion. I sometimes forget that this is an American board and people in America don't always use the same abbreviations we do. What was that Churchill said about two nations sparated by a common language. yer wha' der la?

Mark Stevens, posing as GUEST,Dickson of Dock Green - PM. Go screw yourself! I've earned a lot of payslips in my time, probably a bloody sight more than you could ever imagine, and in conditions no BNP stooge would even contemplate. And I've worked with Italians, Indians, Pakistanis, Poles, Mexicans, Irish, Hungarians, West Indians, Chinese and Iranians and not a single national chauvinist among them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Met PC to stand trial for manslaughter
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 11 - 04:11 PM

Police Constable, Personal Computer, Politically Correct.

PC is a very hardworking pair of initials...

.............

True enough, people tend to back-up colleagues and cover up mistakes and misdeeds in their organisations. Families, church, police, army, public life, private business, politics ...

So far as families it maybe can't be avoided to some extent at least. (Of course Mafia families take it a bit too far...) Anywhere else it does tremendous damage. It calls for a policy of zero tolerance. Where it is proved it should mean the end of the career of anyone guilty of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Met PC to stand trial for manslaughter
From: Abdul The Bul Bul
Date: 25 May 11 - 03:05 AM

And too often it is the whistle blower that has a ruined life.
Al


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Subject: RE: BS: Met PC to stand trial for manslaughter
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 25 May 11 - 05:14 AM

Pc. Harwood had absolutely no reason to strike Ian Tomlinson in the first place and then to knock him down was just a violent act because he he wanred to hurt someone.

He should go to prison, and possibly meet some old friends there.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: BS: Met PC to stand trial for manslaughter
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 25 May 11 - 07:09 AM

I suspect that the police have to be seen internally to back-up fellow colleagues especially in an organisation like that. But I am glad that PC Harwood is going to stand trial at last, whether or not his career or pension will suffer is another thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Met PC to stand trial for manslaughter
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 May 11 - 07:51 AM

I don't think he should have any further career in the Force, whatever the outcome. He is not someone that I like the thought of being policed by.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Met PC to stand trial for manslaughter
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 25 May 11 - 08:01 AM

A teacher got sacked for 'grave misconduct' (recent case) for holding a teenage boy by the arms to get him out of the classroom, as he'd been attacking other students. This PC whacked an innocent man going home from his work and laid him flat, indirectly causing his death. He should stand trial for assault and ABH, and (naturally) lose his job. He can't possibly continue as a PC, he's a violent chap not in control of himself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Met PC to stand trial for manslaughter
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 25 May 11 - 08:41 AM

I agree he should be sacked for this violent act, his actions were no better than that of a thug.


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Subject: RE: BS: Met PC to stand trial for manslaughter
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 May 11 - 09:02 AM

"I suspect that the police have to be seen internally to back-up fellow colleagues especially in an organisation like that.

Such actions are counterproductive, and destructive to trust by the public in the police, trust which is essential if an unarmed police force is to be properly effective.

They are no more to be accepted as inevitable than are the practices in many police forces of systematised bribery and of running protection rackets.


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Subject: RE: BS: Met PC to stand trial for manslaughter
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 25 May 11 - 10:06 PM

Apparently, Harwood has form...

From the Wikipedia article on Ian Tomlinson

The officer seen striking Tomlinson was a police constable with the Territorial Support Group (TSG) at Larkhall Lane police station in Lambeth, South London. Before his identity was known, The Guardian alleged that he may have removed his shoulder number and covered the bottom of his face with his balaclava before hitting Tomlinson. The Daily Mail published this image showing the officer's shoulder ID was missing. According to The Mail on Sunday, TSG officers have been known to swap shoulder IDs, then claim, if accused of wrongdoing, that their unit was elsewhere at the time and that it must be a case of mistaken identity.
[snip]
Harwood had faced two misconduct hearings in the late 1990s and in 2004. The first arose out of a road-rage incident while he was on sick leave with a shoulder injury, during which he reportedly tried to arrest the other driver, who complained that Harwood had used unnecessary force. Before the case was heard, Harwood retired from the Met on medical grounds and was awarded a pension. Three days later, he rejoined the Met as a civilian computer worker.

Several years later, he applied to join the Surrey Police as an officer; Surrey Police say he was vetted and was frank about his history. During his time in Surrey, there was a complaint about his behaviour while on duty; it was investigated and found to be unsubstantiated. After working there for 18 months, he applied for a transfer back to the Met as a police officer, and was accepted in November 2004. It is not clear how thoroughly the Met vetted him at that point.

During the inquest into Tomlinson's death in May 2011, the court heard that Harwood had been in several confrontations that day.
On duty since 5 am, he had tried in the evening to arrest a man he saw writing "all cops are bastards" on the side of a police van, and the suspect's head struck the van door, triggering a response from the crowd that made Harwood believe things were getting out of control. He apparently said he had been hit on the head, had fallen over, lost his baton, and had been attacked by the crowd. He acknowledged during the inquest that this had not happened. Shortly after his attempted arrest of the graffiti man, The Guardian wrote that Harwood swung a coat at a protester, pulled a BBC cameraman to the ground, used a palm strike against a city worker, and at 7:19 pm pushed another man to the ground for allegedly threatening a police dog handler. It was seconds after this, in what Harwood told the inquest was a "split-second decision," that he struck Tomlinson on the thigh with his baton and pushed him to the ground. He said that it was a "very poor push," and he had been shocked that Tomlinson had fallen.

Harwood made no mention of the incident in his notebook that day; he told the inquest he had forgotten about it. He reportedly collapsed when he learned on 8 April, when The Guardian published the video, that the man he hit had died. Harwood and three colleagues made themselves known to a manager and to the IPCC that day.

(Note: emphasis (i.e. bf) added by me)


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Subject: RE: BS: Met PC to stand trial for manslaughter
From: banjoman
Date: 26 May 11 - 06:14 AM

We have to be able to have trust in our police forces and I feel that this particular PC has destroyed a lot o that


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Subject: RE: BS: Met PC to stand trial for manslaughter
From: Arnie
Date: 26 May 11 - 07:18 AM

And meantime, four Leicestershire police officers are to be punished with a stern telling off by their superiors that will stay on their files for as long as 8 months. This is in response to an incident where a poor lady burned herself and her disabled daughter to death in their car following years of harrasment from feral kids on their estate. She had reported most of the incidents to the local cops over the years but had never received the sort of support needed to protect her and her kids. The officers involved in mishandling her case admitted making elementary blunders that let this family down, leading to the mother taking this desperate step. A stern telling-off? Is that really proportionate to the outcome of these officers' negligence?? If it were not for an IPCC (Independent Police Complaints Authority) investigation, they probably wouldn't even have got a telling-off.


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Subject: RE: BS: Met PC to stand trial for manslaughter
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 27 May 11 - 10:07 AM

This is a grisly story indeed, and I'm not trying to understate police culpability. However, my understanding is that Mrs Pilkington made 30 phone calls in 10 years. That is an average of just 3 a year, and that would not give the police the impression of an out of control situation.

As a long standing community activist, who has been targetted by anti-social yobs, I fully understand the nightmares that people can suffer at the hands of these creeps.

But neither can I overemphasise the importance of getting on the bugle to Plod whenever trouble emerges. The police may not be able to attend, if they are busy with more serious crimes. And truth to tell anti-social behaviour is given a far lower priority than it often deserves.

Even so, the police will log the call, and they will use the information to determine where the anti-social hotspots are. Once identified they can then target those areas and apprehend the miscreants.

In all cases, ask for a log number. Then, go and raise the matter with your local residents association, local councillors, council officials, MP, police forums and anywhere else you can. And keep on raising it until the trouble is dealt with.

This is a far from ideal situation because usually all it does is move the problem on to somebody else's patch. All I can say is that my own quality of life, and that of the other people in my neighbourhood has improved immensely since I managed to encourage a few people started taking action.

And while you're talking to all those councillors etc, see if something can't be done to strike at the causes of anti-social behaviour. I'm thinking of things like education, and of providing youth facilities so that kids won't feel there's nothing else for them to do but hang around street corners causing trouble.


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Subject: RE: BS: Met PC to stand trial for manslaughter
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 11 - 02:43 PM

Here's another case in point - Police wheelchair attack 'lawful'

"Police officers were justified in pulling a protester from his wheelchair and 'inadvertently' hitting him with a baton at the student fees demonstrations, an inquiry has found."

Of course the the inquiry into what the police did on this occasion was carried out by the police themselves, by Scotland Yard's Directorate of Professional Standards. What a coincidence...


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Subject: RE: BS: Met PC to stand trial for manslaughter
From: gnu
Date: 27 May 11 - 02:50 PM

John... "They back each other up, right or wrong Kevin. It's a common thing in all walks of life. It even happens on Mudcat I believe ;-)"

Hahahahahaaa! >;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Met PC to stand trial for manslaughter
From: bubblyrat
Date: 28 May 11 - 02:09 PM

The Police Force ( or Farce , as they have now become) , should A) only consist of personnel who have served honourably in the Armed Forces , and B) be subject to the same conditions of service and disciplinary procedures as said members of the Armed Forces . The current bunch of scruffy , ill-disciplined , badly-led , corrupt , self-seeking morons , in whom the British public are rapidly losing all confidence , should be disbanded as soon as is practicable and re-emloyed as lavatory attendants (second class ) ; if at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Met PC to stand trial for manslaughter
From: GUEST,Doc John
Date: 28 May 11 - 06:06 PM

Great news - at last things are changing. There's been series of these incidents for as long as I can remember and the police have always been exonerated. Look up Stephen Waldorf for a horrible tale of 30 years ago.
If a young private on his first tour of Northern Ireland, working in very stressful conditions, shot someone in error he was court marshalled. If the police shoot someone like Harry Stanley, they're not even charged.
A French colleague tells me that their armed police don't have a history of killing people unlike our unarmed officers. How true this is - Inquest can't give me the statistics - I don't know.
Remember PC Dixon was fiction!


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