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Origins: MelodyRelation-PollyPerkins/Bunclody?

MGM·Lion 30 May 11 - 04:54 PM
Jack Campin 30 May 11 - 05:48 PM
MGM·Lion 31 May 11 - 12:10 AM
Steve Gardham 31 May 11 - 03:52 PM
Steve Gardham 31 May 11 - 04:14 PM
Steve Gardham 31 May 11 - 04:27 PM
MGM·Lion 31 May 11 - 05:18 PM
MGM·Lion 01 Jun 11 - 11:35 AM
Steve Gardham 01 Jun 11 - 04:39 PM
MGM·Lion 03 Jun 11 - 02:40 AM
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Subject: Origins: MelodyRelation·PollyPerkins/Bunclody?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 May 11 - 04:54 PM

:::Wikipedia:~ "Pretty Polly Perkins of Paddington Green" is the title of an English song, composed by the London music hall and broadside songwriter Harry Clifton (1832–1872), and first published in 1864.
Most of Clifton's songs adapted their tunes from old folk songs and it is possible that a folk tune is also the origin of the tune for Polly -- some see a resemblance to "Nightingales Sing", also known as "The Bold Grenadier":::

Does anyone else observe a similarity also to "Bunclody", an emigrant song sung by Luke Kelly, Dick Miles [both versions on Youtube], et al, which consists largely of floating verses. If that song's tune is indeed related to "Polly Perkins", as my ear suggests, which would have come first?

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: Origins: MelodyRelation�PollyPerkins/Bunclody?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 May 11 - 05:48 PM

I suspect that both tunes are descended from "The Ashgrove" or something like it.


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Subject: RE: Origins: MelodyRelation·PollyPerkins/Bunclody?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 May 11 - 12:10 AM

Can't say I perceive any v strong resemblance to The Ash Grove, Jack.


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Subject: RE: Origins: MelodyRelation-PollyPerkins/Bunclody?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 31 May 11 - 03:52 PM

Michael,
It's quite possible that that particular 'Bold Grenadier' tune is derived from the Clifton song, or even via 'Cushy Butterfield'. As very few people were noting down broadside tunes before the 1880s it's almost impossible to say.

I can see the similarity with 'Bunclody' and this is (IMO) a particularly beautiful version of the tune, but again which came first is impossible to say, unless a variant of 'Bunclody' can be found in something like Bunting or any of the Irish collections with tunes before the 1860s. Harry was rather partial to Irish songs but usually set tunes himself to Irish poetry, e'g', 'Rocky Road to Dublin', 'Lannigan's Ball', 'Darby Maguire', 'The Waterford Boys', 'The Wedding of Biddy McGrane', 'The Island of Green' etc.


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Subject: RE: Origins: MelodyRelation-PollyPerkins/Bunclody?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 31 May 11 - 04:14 PM

I might add that his original tune for 'Send back my Barney' (The original of My Bonny Lies over the Ocean) is quite close to the tune of 'Mo cailin deas cruidhte na m-bo' sung in the drama 'Collen Bawn' and in English 'The Pretty Girl Milking her Cow' by Dr George Sigerson.


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Subject: RE: Origins: MelodyRelation-PollyPerkins/Bunclody?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 31 May 11 - 04:27 PM

The Maid of Bunclody was printed as a broadside c1860 by Brereton of Dublin. The tune I remember is even more closely related to 'The Strands of Magilligan' which came to England via Liverpool as ' The Streams of Nantsian' and then when it reached sourthern England became 'The Streams of Lovely Nancy' all via broadsides interchanging with oral tradition. 'Strands of Magilligan' would be at least 18thc but John Moulden would have more to say on this. I have no record of a Bunclody tune in the likes of Bunting, Petrie, Joyce etc. but then I don't read music and it may be there under another name.

HC may well have been influenced. The period is right.


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Subject: RE: Origins: MelodyRelation-PollyPerkins/Bunclody?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 May 11 - 05:18 PM

S teve ~~ Many thanks indeed!


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Subject: RE: Origins: MelodyRelation-PollyPerkins/Bunclody?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 11:35 AM

Actually, humming them over, air of The Streams of Lovely Nancy is not a million miles from Polly Perkins either, is it?


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Subject: RE: Origins: MelodyRelation-PollyPerkins/Bunclody?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 04:39 PM

Yes there are certain similarities of phrasing but they are not sufficiently close to say with any certainty that one is based on the other.


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Subject: RE: Origins: MelodyRelation-PollyPerkins/Bunclody?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jun 11 - 02:40 AM

ref


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