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Did Robert Peel have a Lancashire accent

Paul Reade 31 May 11 - 06:01 PM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 01 Jun 11 - 12:23 AM
Gurney 01 Jun 11 - 12:26 AM
GUEST,Paul Burke 01 Jun 11 - 01:55 AM
Will Fly 01 Jun 11 - 03:28 AM
MartinRyan 01 Jun 11 - 03:36 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Jun 11 - 03:52 AM
GUEST, Tom Bliss 01 Jun 11 - 04:16 AM
GUEST, TB 01 Jun 11 - 04:16 AM
Will Fly 01 Jun 11 - 05:55 AM
GUEST, Tom Bliss 01 Jun 11 - 06:55 AM
Will Fly 01 Jun 11 - 07:21 AM
GUEST,SID 01 Jun 11 - 09:43 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 01 Jun 11 - 10:12 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Jun 11 - 10:13 AM
GUEST,muppett 01 Jun 11 - 11:07 AM
Will Fly 01 Jun 11 - 11:11 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 01 Jun 11 - 11:32 AM
Paul Reade 01 Jun 11 - 01:18 PM
MGM·Lion 01 Jun 11 - 01:58 PM
Will Fly 01 Jun 11 - 02:02 PM
MGM·Lion 01 Jun 11 - 02:09 PM
Will Fly 01 Jun 11 - 02:26 PM
MGM·Lion 01 Jun 11 - 02:34 PM
Paul Reade 01 Jun 11 - 03:02 PM
GUEST,Eliza 01 Jun 11 - 03:14 PM
MGM·Lion 01 Jun 11 - 05:40 PM
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Subject: Did Robert Peel have a Lancashire accent
From: Paul Reade
Date: 31 May 11 - 06:01 PM

Just had a pleasant evening stroll up to the Peel Memorial on the hill above Ramsbottom, Lancashire.

The town of Bury has always made much of its famous son Sir Robert Peel, the Prime Minister who gave us the Police Force.

As a "Bury lad", the question is did he have a Lancashire accent? Remember he was a Conservative, educated, among other places, at Harrow and Oxford.

Does anyone know?
Perhaps more to the point, does anyone care?


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Subject: RE: Did Robert Peel have a Lancashire accent
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 12:23 AM

I find myself caring greatly.


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Subject: RE: Did Robert Peel have a Lancashire accent
From: Gurney
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 12:26 AM

Did the Duke of Wellington have an Irish accent? Jasus, that's important.


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Subject: RE: Did Robert Peel have a Lancashire accent
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 01:55 AM

we don't have recordings of people's accents before the late 19th century, and even then the few famous recordings (e.g. Gladstone) are of uncertain veracity. Prior to the 19th century, a person's social status could be assessed instantly from their dress. Moreover, Public School and University education was less universal among the ruling classes than was the case later. Accent as a social diagnostic would have become more important as the Industrial Revolution made cheaper clothes more widely available- exactly the period of Peel's youth. Since Robert Peel went to Harrow and Cambridge, you can probably assume he was a fully housetrained toff despite his rather infra- dig commercial background.


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Subject: RE: Did Robert Peel have a Lancashire accent
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 03:28 AM

Owd Bob? Bye... 'ee wur a good'un! I allus recall we 'ad a reet gradely do round his 'ouse every Friday neet...


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Subject: RE: Did Robert Peel have a Lancashire accent
From: MartinRyan
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 03:36 AM

Maybe the elves should hold off on moving this to BS until we discover whether or no he could sing?!

Regards


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Subject: RE: Did Robert Peel have a Lancashire accent
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 03:52 AM

"Robert Peel went to Harrow and Cambridge" ====

Wrong, Paul. He was at Ox--rd, I regret to say.

~Michael MA Cantab~


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Subject: RE: Did Robert Peel have a Lancashire accent
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 04:16 AM

Well, maybe I can help here.

My wife is in fact Robert Peel's Great great great great great great niece (if i read the tree correctly) and she does NOT have a Lancashire Accent. Nor does my Mother-in-Law who was born a Peel Cox. (True, but I'm not being serious, ok?)

John Peel, on the other hand, would have had a Cumbrian accent, and you might even get a chance to check that for yourselves if you dared. When filming 'Cumbrian Tales' for the BBC I was based in the fabled huntsman's actual house near Ireby - and my colleague, who lived there, had often heard the man clomping around (heavy steps in an empty house, on floorboards where there was now carpet). I never heard him myself, but odd things did happen...

Robert has never paid us a visit here in Leeds, which we think a little remiss of him. But if he does I'll let you know how he speaks.


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Subject: RE: Did Robert Peel have a Lancashire accent
From: GUEST, TB
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 04:16 AM

Sorry 'Cumberland accent'


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Subject: RE: Did Robert Peel have a Lancashire accent
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 05:55 AM

Tom, Tom - you redeemed yourself just in time. 'Cumbria' indeed! (Snort).

You'll be saying that Bolton's in 'Greater Manchester' next - when it is, always has been, and always will be, in Lancashire.


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Subject: RE: Did Robert Peel have a Lancashire accent
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 06:55 AM

And a fair bit of Lancashire is actually Yorkshire tha knows. Now that really IS fighting talk (but historically accurate)


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Subject: RE: Did Robert Peel have a Lancashire accent
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 07:21 AM

All I will say by way of reply is that, in a Leeds pub many years ago, I saw four Yorkshire lads playing dominoes - all afraid to knock in case the waiter came to take an order...

(gets coat and red rose)


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Subject: RE: Did Robert Peel have a Lancashire accent
From: GUEST,SID
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 09:43 AM

A clue, perhaps, from Frank Hird's "Lancashire Tales" (1910):

"The salient points in the first Robert Peel's character were repeated in his son, the first baronet, and in his grandson the Prime Minister......he was a reflecting man, who looked ahead, a plain-spoken, simple minded man, not literary, and possessing no refinement in his tastes, free from affectation, and without any desire to imitate the manners or modes of life of a class above his own. His sons resembled him, and a strong likeness pervaded the whole family."


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Subject: RE: Did Robert Peel have a Lancashire accent
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 10:12 AM

In other words a spade is a spade, and a truncheon is a truncheon - not to be confused with some namby pamby southern puffter's trancheon dah-ling!


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Subject: RE: Did Robert Peel have a Lancashire accent
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 10:13 AM

Will ~~ A Londoner myself; but I can't imagine 4 Yorkshire lads being afraid of any waiter or whether he might come to take an order: never met one who wouldn't just tell him to ~ er ~ depart & return later.

~Michael~

{stands firm in the hobnailed boots that farver wore!


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Subject: RE: Did Robert Peel have a Lancashire accent
From: GUEST,muppett
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 11:07 AM

It depends on if he sang any Bob Dylan songs !!!!!!!!!!!! (See another thread)


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Subject: RE: Did Robert Peel have a Lancashire accent
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 11:11 AM

Nay, Michael - just a Lancashire person's joke against a Yorkshireman's well-known care with money... :-)

As for Lancashire humour, my favourite joke is about two Lancashire blokes who meet each other in the street during the Great Depression:

1st man: Nah then, owd lad - doin' owt?
2nd man: Nowt - but it's steady.


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Subject: RE: Did Robert Peel have a Lancashire accent
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 11:32 AM

Lanky! an' he became a bluddy tory! His face 'ud stand cloggin'.


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Subject: RE: Did Robert Peel have a Lancashire accent
From: Paul Reade
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 01:18 PM

Aye Alan, even in Lancashire there are some Bluddy Tories!

Remember Rhodes Boyson (with the mutton-chop whiskers) who was a junior minister under Thatcher? He was from Haslingden, his politics were terrible - too nasty even for most Tories ... but he could roll his Rs like a good 'un.


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Subject: RE: Did Robert Peel have a Lancashire accent
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 01:58 PM

Ah, yes; good old Rhodes. Wiki reminds us that---

"He opposed "progressive" teaching methods and what he perceived to be lax discipline both in modern education and in the wider society, and at Highbury Grove he introduced an unfashionably traditional regime, with strictly enforced uniforms, caning for misbehaviour, and a house system. This proved so popular with local parents that the school was consistently oversubscribed."---

"Too nasty even for most tories" eh? Oh, dear; you poor old lefties. People just will never be told ~ never know what's good for them, do they!

~M~


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Subject: RE: Did Robert Peel have a Lancashire accent
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 02:02 PM

an unfashionably traditional regime, with strictly enforced uniforms, caning for misbehaviour, and a house system

Which might suit some children - and not others. It's not a question of political leaning, Michael - it's a question of what suits the child. "Left" and "right" has no bearing on the question of suiting the teacher to the child.


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Subject: RE: Did Robert Peel have a Lancashire accent
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 02:09 PM

Will -- As that was a comprehensive school, it bloody well had to suit all the children who attended it. The fact remains that their parents were happy to have them there & triumphed over the other poor parents who couldn't get theirs in to be 'suited' by the regime {"consistently oversubscribed"}. Do you really think it not a 'political' matter? Oh, come on...

~M~


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Subject: RE: Did Robert Peel have a Lancashire accent
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 02:26 PM

Michael, I spent a large part of my working life in education before I retired. And I also spent a large part of my education at a public school where there were "strictly enforced uniforms, caning for misbehaviour, and a house system". There was also bullying, snobbery, team sports and some values which went back to Arnold's Rugby. There were some brilliant teachers and some bloody sadists.

It taught me - more than anything else ever did - that some children flourish under that kind of regime and others don't. Children are not some kind of homegeneous organism which responds predictably to a set of tropisms. They are individuals - and the best teachers and schools can cope with that individuality. There are no politics in good teachers - they just know how to impart the knowledge they have and enthuse the child. The trappings of uniforms and caning are just that - trappings.


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Subject: RE: Did Robert Peel have a Lancashire accent
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 02:34 PM

I was 30 years a teacher, Will, ending up for the last 12 as Head of Upper School in an 11-16 comprehensive. Of course children vary ~~ the ones who ask for it and the ones who have the sense not to ~~ I am speaking now of my experience in the sort of school I [& Rhodes Boyson] taught in, having myself attended a good Middlesex Grammar School not a Public School: the Arnold of Rugby tradition to which you advert was not at issue. Can't go into it all again; but would refer you to some correspondence I had about 15-16 May on the 'Old Cat o'Nine {Lord Invader}' thread.

~M~


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Subject: RE: Did Robert Peel have a Lancashire accent
From: Paul Reade
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 03:02 PM

I stand by my original comment: to also quote from Wiki:-

"... he sought to uphold schools' right to use the cane, and was nicknamed the "Minister for Flogging" by the anti-corporal-punishment campaign STOPP.

"... He was a strong opponent of homosexuality and a supporter of Section 28. He said: "It is wrong biblically, is homosexuality. It is unnatural. AIDS is part of the fruits of the permissive society. The regular one-man, one-woman marriage would not put us at risk in this way. If we could wipe out homosexual practices, then Aids would die out."


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Subject: RE: Did Robert Peel have a Lancashire accent
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 03:14 PM

MtheGM, I also attended a good Middlesex Grammar School, it was Hayes Grammar. Did you go there by any chance?


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Subject: RE: Did Robert Peel have a Lancashire accent
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jun 11 - 05:40 PM

Hi, Eliza. No, I was at Hendon County. Still, semi-SNAP!

Paul: oddly enough, the man who ran STOPP, Tom Scott, became a friend after the campaign ended in his success, because he left teaching & became a theatre director, and ran the Eye Theatre in Suffolk, where I, as The Guardian's E Anglia theatre critic, used to review regularly. So, after all those years in opposition to one another... What that they say about small worlds?

I would by no means purport to support all Boyson's opinions, esp in re homosexuality; but any democrat must recognise the popular support he maintained in many of them ~~ by no means an insignificant or contemptible figure IMO.

~M~


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