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BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas?
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Subject: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Bobert Date: 31 May 11 - 09:52 PM Okay, here's the deal... I was talkin' with my brother this evening who knows a lot about a lot of stuff and I was telling him about my pond... It is fed with a creek that is only active when they (we) get 5 inches of rain in a week... Then there's an active creek about 170 feet away and he was telling me about makin' some apparatus with PVC which gets reduced and creates water pressure that you can lay in an active creek bed that will move water higher than the creek bed??? I mean, I kinda get it but not really... What's the deal??? Where's John in Kansas??? He knows this kinda stuff... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Rapparee Date: 31 May 11 - 09:59 PM What's the difference in elevation between your pond and the creek? Or to put it another way, how high is the pond above the creek you want to use? And how much of the creek that you want to use is on your property? Are there any water rights (i.e., legal) restrictions about to diverting or using some of its water? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: frogprince Date: 31 May 11 - 10:00 PM Just suck on a hose to get it siphoning, and drop it into the pond. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Bobert Date: 31 May 11 - 10:09 PM The property line runs in the middle of the creek and we have about 300 feet of creek.... I dropped a submersible pump in (after running 300 feet of extension chord and 200 feet of garden hose) and ran it for 4 days and with that it only maintains but doesn't refill the pond... I suspect I'll have to put bentonite clay in it to stop the leakage... The active creek isn't all that active but does flow most of the year... I', thinking that I can rent a gas powered pump with a 3 inch hose to get the pond refilled and then it a matter of riggin' up something like Brother said to keep water flowing to it... The height is about 15 feet difference between the creek bed and the top of the pond... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Rapparee Date: 31 May 11 - 10:19 PM Well, you got several options. One is to dam your half of the creek and let that water rise high enough to reach the pond. You can let some of the water back into the creek and keep the pond freshened all the time. Now, if that don't work... You could try a water screw, which ain't as much fun as you think. And of course there's always the old bucket brigade. Lemme think of some more. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Bobert Date: 31 May 11 - 10:22 PM No, Rap... Flooding a couple acres ain't goinna do it fir me... The water screw won't either... Brother says that PVC with reductions every so far apart will creat 'nuff pressure to push it up hill to the other pond... Where's John in Kansas??? He was born knowing this shit??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Rapparee Date: 31 May 11 - 10:29 PM Or make yourself a hydraulic ram. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Rapparee Date: 31 May 11 - 10:31 PM Yeah, it might. I think it would depend upon the head (or flow speed) of the creek. You'd need an angled stretch from the creek to the pond. You sure you don't wanna use buckets? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Bobert Date: 31 May 11 - 10:36 PM 200 feet thru poison ivy, sticky bushes and fallen trees??? No thanks, Rap... Might have to take a pass on that idea... But we'll file it away for future consideration... But seriously, the speed of the water in the good stream is a factor, I'm sure... I mean, if yer gonna push water uphill you gotta keep a certain amount of pressure at the intake... I donno??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Rapparee Date: 31 May 11 - 11:10 PM Here's an idea! Buy an elephant or two. Pasture them in the creek and train them to shoot water outa their trunks up and into the pond! Of course, you'll have to deal with a little elephant snot, but that's no big deal, is it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: GUEST,Paul Burke Date: 01 Jun 11 - 02:01 AM A shaduf? I remember seeing a film of one of these in action, complete with water raising shanties. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Gurney Date: 01 Jun 11 - 02:25 AM Well, they exist, and they work by compressing air in a container, and they pump a small percentage of available water, and I have a sketch-plan somewhere, in a hippy homesteading magazine. From memory, an airtight container with a couple of rubber-flap valves and certain correctly-sized piping. I found a book on how-to-build on the web, but it was an expensive book! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: JohnInKansas Date: 01 Jun 11 - 06:18 AM Hydraulic Ram Especially check the "External Links" at the bottom of the article. The "Details of how to make a homemade hydraulic ram" and the "Warwick University's Development Technology Unit — Publications on Water Lifting" might be good starting points. At the Warwick U site, the Development Notes article looks like a good overview of how to put together something useful, with some "simple" explanation of things you need to consider to decide whether you have a workable plan. Come back when you've read them all, if you still think you have a suitable site(?) and can afford all the pipes and plumbing. Then tell us which plan you think might work so we can all look at it. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Donuel Date: 01 Jun 11 - 07:00 AM The Romans did this all the time without any form of pumps. From a collecting pond/running stream, you run a pipe a fair distance on a level trajectory. Then make a pipe that gradually shrinks in diameter like a stretched cone. Adjust the angle of the long cone. The water will run uphill up the graduated cone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: JohnInKansas Date: 01 Jun 11 - 08:51 AM The 15 foot difference in elevation between the creek and the pond is a bit in excess of what you're likely to get any useful pumping volume uphill with just the "Roman Venturi" method Donuel mentions. With the scant description of the creek flow, the hydraulic ram pump may also be somewhat marginal, but is more likely to be usable. The 15 foot elevation isn't beyond what normal mechanical pumps should be able to "prime" with the pump at the higher end, if you don't have too many leaks in the inlet pipe, so there's no real need to run power to the farthest of the two - creek or pond. Pick whichever end is closest to the outlet(?). Shallow wells in my area use "top mounted" pumps down to about a 28 ft lift, sometimes with a check valve at the bottom so the prime doesn't drain back between pump cycles. (More than about 30 feet lift requires a "submergeable pump" at the bottom of the pipe.) The Roman version requires a closed pipe with a drop in elevation between the inlet and outlet. If a "level pipe" worked, water would be flying up in the air all over the place, since there are lots of places where there's level water. The ram pump improves on the same drop/venturi principal by introducing a "cycle" of fill/discharge phases, and can theoretically handle the 15 foot (5 meter) lift distance, but only if the creek bed has a drop of a few feet that you can tap to get the inlet head (at the pump) up to snuff. It might be much more practical to put a windmill in the line to do the pumping. The higher location (at the pond end?) would likely get the best exposure to breezes. The windmill could run a mechanical pump or spin a generator to keep a battery charged for an electric pump. If you can get enough flow when the wind blows, you wouldn't care if it doesn't blow all the time(?). A question you need to answer early on is whether you can get enough water out of the creek to replace the evaporation from the larger surface area you'll expose when you spread it out in the pond. It doesn't really sound like you've got enough persistent water in either the creek or the pond to do much more than barely break even on the "cook-off" losses. Pumping too much up to the pond may eventually just deplete both the creek and the pond. Before getting too involved with your investment, a check with "authorities" might be advisable. A local Ag Dept agent might be a good start. "Water rights" can be an incredibly complex maze of irrational limitations, and the Fed may get involved with their own requirements for any "pool" that might flood downstream if your dam (containment banks) might break down; and "relocating" water can affect groundwater that you may not even know is there. A shallow well and a windmill might be a better option for filling the pond if local conditions are right, and then when they start fracking nearby you'll have a methane pump right in your own yard. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Donuel Date: 01 Jun 11 - 08:59 AM I didn't noticed 15 feet. It would work for 3 feet maybe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: JohnInKansas Date: 01 Jun 11 - 09:40 AM 3 Feet (1 meter) is the limit suggested in the "Design Notes" linked up above, for the simple duct lift. The "cycling" ram pump suggests it can get to 5 meters (15 feet) in some cases. Both require some "inlet line slope," and it's not clear whether the creek runs enough water to expect much real success. I didn't see a formula for estimating the evaporation losses in my cursory look at what's available, but farmers around my area suffer a lot of loss with their small ponds, and have very real problems keeping year-round water in the little ones. It shouldn't be too hard to search up a method for estimation. The note on checking with the ag guy is based on personal acquaintance with at least three area farmers who started ponds and were forced to "break out" their small dams before they got any water in them due to the "liabilities" if they finished the job. Much better to check before moving a bunch of dirt (or sealing the pond bottom(?)). John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Rapparee Date: 01 Jun 11 - 10:04 AM I still think he should use buckets. And he turned down my idea for a water screw. But back to the ol' electric/gasoline pump, I guess. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Bobert Date: 01 Jun 11 - 10:16 AM Well, we had the extension agent out here to talk about plants and other related stuff and he at first said that we should check with the "county folks" and then said that maybe the Army Corp of Engineers might have to get involved and I might need to pull some permits and have soil samples taken and engineers and, and, and... ...so as he was leaving he took me aside and said, "I'm not telling you this but between you and me I'd just do it (pump the water into the pond)... I can rent a 3 inch gas pump for less than $100 which should be sufficient to at least get the water level up to the spill pipe and then us my submersible electric pump to maintain the level... I had it going for two days and it seemed to stop the loss (maintain the level)... I think that's what I'm going to do for now... I have to wait until my canoe gets here this weekend so I can hang out around the spill pipe with a manure fork and fork the duck weed into the canoe to keep it from stopping up the spill pipe... Meanwhile, I'll read thru the stuff the John has posted and see if I'll be able to use any of it... And shoot some levels, too... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: JohnInKansas Date: 01 Jun 11 - 11:06 AM The C of E guys generally are the ones with the "official" responsibility to make irresponsible decisions in such matters, if that's any help. You can probably find enough "web info" to tell whether you really need their attention, and I think your local guy probably was (correctly) suggesting you don't really want to make them too curious 'bout what you're doin'. Since you have an existing pond, and there's some water in it, you can probably make "adjustments" to your maintenance that nobody's likely to notice - until some RB buys the next-door property and decides to put in a country club or somethin'. You've probably already got enough water in your pond to have sufficient mosquitos, but you might want to check the literature on regulation of their breeding cycles. There are some "semi-exotic" fishes that can be a help and are generally "legal," and some others that sometimes are recommended that are more trouble than help. Little green froggies usually are a plus(?), but the kind that will survive in your area probaly already have maps for gettin' to yer pond in their hip pockets. Have you got any trees tall enough for a couple of bat boxes? You haven't given enough info on the intended depth and area of the pond for us to recommend livestock, but I'd doubt you're intending to have enough water for a pet hipperpostumus and they're kind of "high mainenance" in a small pond anyhow. (They also tend to wander into the neighbors' yards sometimes too.) John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 01 Jun 11 - 11:55 AM What's the pond for, bobert? Do you really want one, or do you feel it's your responsibility to keep it up just because it's there? If you bought the land and there was no pond, would you want to build one? Maybe you'd be happier just getting rid of the pond and letting the stream run free. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: GUEST,Rapparee Date: 01 Jun 11 - 04:03 PM He wants the place so he kin go skinny-dippin' and slap skeeters. Put up some purple martin houses, too. They eat skeeters just like bats do. You kin also spread old used motor oil on the top of the pond; that'll block up the skeeter larva's breathing tubes and kill them. 'Course, the EPA types might want to have a word with you if you do that, but it'll give a nice rainbow effect to the pond water. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Gurney Date: 01 Jun 11 - 04:36 PM Ponds are encouraged here in country areas, to give the Fire Service something to use in the case of.. Mostly overflow from drinking-water tanks, though. Precipitation is not generally a problem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: JohnInKansas Date: 01 Jun 11 - 09:29 PM All of Bobert's talk about plumbin (see his pee thread too) has got me to thinkin' about a small job I've been putting off. "She" has a bed of roses out at the corner of the house that requires that "somebody" go turn the faucet on every few days to water them, and (unfortunately) that "someone" also remembers to turn the faucet OFF when sufficient watering has been done. (ON is somehow a lot easier to remember than OFF; and "she" sometimes does the ON part when "somebody" doesn't know that the OFF part will be needed.) Since there's a condensate drain pipe from the air conditioner that runs nearby, an 8 foot piece of PVC could run the condensate directly to the roses, and they'd probably get about the right amount of waterin' without "somebody" (you know who) havin' to tend to it all the time. The brilliant part of this is that the roses need more water in hot weather, and the AC runs more (and drips more condensate water) when it's hot, so it's pretty much an automatic self-compensating robotic metering method of keeping just the right amount of juice where (and when) it's most needed. Not that the short chunk of PVC is a big deal, but lots of people probably have a similar situation, where automatic watering could be fairly easily managed (for those where AC is needed) - or some may not have realized that the damp spot where the condensate drains is the better place to plant a "higher water demand specimen" than out in the middle of the yard where you have to tend it regularly - and the wet spot can be just about anywhere you want to run a pipe or hose - within reason. Bobert's not mentioned any problem with controlling where the wet spot is, but that may just be 'cause his back step is so handy. The rest of us can consider, and benefit from, keeping proper control of where we make one. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Bobert Date: 01 Jun 11 - 09:56 PM First of all, we like the pond and we want the pond... It's 20 times bigger than the one we left and we wanted it, too... Second, yeah, we don't need a bunch of sniffers sniffin'... Always costs $$$... Thirdly, John... And I hate this but... ...yer roses ain't gonna like that condensation water... It is close to being distilled and has nuthin' in it... Well, with an occasional out break of Legionnaires Disease... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Bill D Date: 01 Jun 11 - 10:21 PM If he has a 1400 mile piece of PVC, he can have MY condensate water, as my AC is on the back porch and I have to put a bucket under it and ..... that 'remembering' process to empty the bucket is just as complex in Maryland. I also have a dehumidifier downstairs that has to be carried to a bathroom about every 28.817 hours....there hasta be a better system. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 01 Jun 11 - 11:11 PM Search under - Christian Ministry - Africa - Hydrolic RAM
Easy and cheap to construct from PVC in YOUR local area.
The water can be raised 50 FEET - and of course travel indefinately along the contour line.
Sincerely,
consult your local/city/county/state/country water rights laws...and neighbors within hearing range - it DOES make NOISE. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 01 Jun 11 - 11:18 PM Kansas, Wyoming and Colorado -have VERY different laws regarding water and mineral rights.
Consult a local Legal Advisor.
Sincerely,
You could stand to lose your house and lot and all the money you have got. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Ross Campbell Date: 01 Jun 11 - 11:19 PM I remember asking my uncle one time about some cast-iron pipework that still lay in the bottom of the stream-bed that ran through his farm, about 100 yards away from the house and perhaps thirty feet below the house level. He said it was a hydraulic ram. At this time (mid fifties?) he had replaced this device with a Lister pump which drew water from a spring adjacent to the stream, but still with a good twenty-five feet of height to overcome. This had to be operated at least once a day to fill a huge cast-iron kettle that stood next to the house. It was another twenty years before mains water arrived. I never figured out how a hydraulic ram could work, but there are various sites which will try to explain the principles. This one suggests they are relatively inefficient - eight gallons has to pass through the system to raise one gallon. Thinking back, there may have been a small dam in my uncle's stream-bed to ensure that all of the stream's water would be available to power the ram. I think in UK you would nowadays have to get water authority permission to obstruct a waterway like that - may be just requires agreement between you and your neighbour in USA. Ross |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Ebbie Date: 01 Jun 11 - 11:47 PM "...has to be carried to a bathroom about every 28.817 hours" Bummer There's got to be a better method. (Danged- just realized that I read that as Twenty-eight thousandpoint 817 hours. Purdy much takes away the punch.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Rapparee Date: 02 Jun 11 - 12:22 AM Bobert, Garg is right: check your local laws and ESPECIALLY any restrictions and stuff that might apply to water rights. Out here water rights can purt near lead to a shootin' feud (and has in the past, and not too long ago either). Your state laws are probably a good place to start, but it gets damned complicated damned fast. USUALLY the rule is "First in time is first in Right" except of course where it isn't. You could lose everything if you skip a comma or a period. I don't think NC has the same water problems we have out here in high desert country (most water rights are held by the Indians) but there are likely some laws about it. Like, don't build yer outhouse over the crick and stuff like that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: JohnInKansas Date: 02 Jun 11 - 03:26 AM ...yer roses ain't gonna like that condensation water... It is close to being distilled and has nuthin' in it... Compared to what comes out of the tap, distilled is good. If your tap water "nourishes" your plants I think I'd look into a filter. It's fairly easy to apply soil corrections periodically to feed the flowers, and that needs doin' regardless of what water you use. my AC is on the back porch and I have to put a bucket under it and ..... that 'remembering' process to empty the bucket is just as complex in Maryland ... Vinyl hose from the lumber yard is pretty cheap, and easy to work with. All you need is a nipple that sticks out 'nuff to hook the hose on, and then run the hose to a safe place for the water to go. Garden hose would also work, but it's a little harder to merge with the decor. I also have a dehumidifier downstairs that has to be carried to a bathroom about every 28.817 hours "Downstairs" quite usually includes a sump that's got water in it anyway, and a pump to keep the level in the sump at a fairly fixed level. Another small hose to run the dehumugiflator condensate into the sump won't change the basement moisture by much unless you've got an unusually dry basement. You might want to relocate the humidifier to compromise between access to the sump and air circulation for the dehumidificating. If "downstairs" means something else, a small pump like the ones used in (indoor?) "fountains" might serve to automate draining the condensate, or you could equip the unit with a small standard sump pump. You'll likely want some kind of float valve for any automated method, but it shouldn't be an intellectual challenge. If you're talking a really small dehumidifier, one of the acquarium "bubble pumps" might even work, although they've got a pretty limited lift height. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: GUEST,Jon Date: 02 Jun 11 - 05:18 AM And for those of us without A/C, I find a tap timer solves JIK's problem. I don't use their ability to water automatically at certain days of the week or times of day (it might work with a moisture sensor but otherwise I find you either water when not required or forget to switch back to auto after a rainy period so prefer a visual check of the soil and a manual start) but do like their ability to send water to a plot for a set time. The front of the house uses tap water but the veg plot etc. round the back in the field gets collected rain water. I pump this from the butts using a marine freshwater pump (used because they pump on demand - open a tap and the motor starts) powered by a lead acid battery which is charged by a solar panel. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Penny S. Date: 02 Jun 11 - 05:51 AM I had been going to suggest a ram when I saw this thread, but I see it has been well covered (oops, the bit of the brain that engages puns has got involved, sorry). My grandfather's house had had one, installed by the previous occupant, an employee of a big house, without permission. The employer had sacked the employee and disconnected the ram. It ran off quite a small stream (creek). I wonder if some of the discussion is relevant to me. I'm in a terrace, and all the roof water runs off at the ends, so I can't harvest it. The flagged area all runs towards the back door, and I have started digging a hole in which to sink the old cold water tank. This is about 2 1/2 feet diameter and about 2 foot deep. The idea is that this catches the run off which I can then use for watering. I have a small battery powered pump to get it out. However, it has occurred to me that I could also run the water through a small fake stream down the side of the garden, by pumping it up that 2 foot, and across the garden about four yards up a slight slope - maybe another 6 inches. And I would like to do this using solar power. Is that possible? And could Bobert use solar to move that water of his? Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: GUEST,Jon Date: 02 Jun 11 - 06:25 AM Penny, a wild guess but I think Bobert's would need a huge investment in solar equipment. Never tried a project like yours but I'd guess it rather more affordable even though it could still add up. I'm not sure but one idea I might consider if trying something like that would be rather than have it pump all the time to have a top reservoir and pump up to that. I could control that via a solenoid valve and float switch. Probably the first thing to do though and I'd have to do a lot of googling for this to find out how I think would be to get some idea of the flow rate (eg. litres per hour) in your stream. Then it would be a case of trying to find what pumps can deliver what you need and what power they consume. I don't know for your project but for one I once had in mind before opting for pressurised watering was to lift the water a couple of meters to tank and gravity irrigate. For that, the best candidate pump I found was a marine bilge pump. Anyway, cluelessly rambling here though trying to kick out a couple of thoughts... It may be worth an Internet search to see if you can find anyone who has done similar. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Bill D Date: 02 Jun 11 - 09:30 AM John... no sump- it's a finished downstairs built into a hill with a solid, poured floor. I 'could' put the dehumidifier on the other side of a wall with a hose running to a shower stall, but the door between the two sides is closed a lot (my shop is on that side) and it wouldn't help much. As it is, it clears a LOT of water from the air and really helps...and my wife reminds me to empty it if I forget. The back porch AC has no nipple for attaching a hose....but I see a place where I might rig one. I'm clever...but short on time right now... Now...back to our regularly scheduled overcoming the limits of gravity and physics for Bobert... I like the elephant idea... *grin* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Rapparee Date: 02 Jun 11 - 09:49 AM AND that would remind everyone that Bobert is secretly a rabid Republican. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Jim Dixon Date: 02 Jun 11 - 10:07 AM Farms in the prairie states used to always have windmills that were mainly used to pump ground water up to the surface to water livestock. There was no electricity involved; a long rod connected the axle of the windmill to a piston pump in the ground. The rotation of the axle was converted to reciprocating motion in the rod. At least that's how the one that I saw worked; I only once had a chance to see a working windmill up close. A lot of old windmills are still standing but rusty and unused since the farms have switched to electric pumps. It certainly would be a novelty to reactivate one of those old farm windmills. I see new ones are still being sold: http://www.mayawindmills.com/ You wouldn't need a very big windmill if you only needed a small amount of water—say, to water your rosebushes—and if you only needed to move it a short vertical distance, say, from a cistern just below ground level. One of those little windmills that they sell as lawn ornaments could probably do it, but you'd have to modify it, because they aren't designed to do any work at all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: GUEST Date: 02 Jun 11 - 11:48 AM Poster appears to be leeneia Bobert: Who built your pond? Was it a government anti-erosion project? Ask the USDA. Who designed it? Was it designed right? What's under it? Thick shale? Fractured bedrock? Was it supposed to be a permanent pond or just a holding tank for storm water? If designed right, was it built right, following the design? Has it been maintained since being built? What's upstream of it? What quality water is going into it? Who's downstream of the water you want to take? Will they miss it? Will they be damaged if you turn running water into water that's been sitting in the hot sun? Do people in your area use wells, either for their homes or for stock? Will your pond send pond down to the water table, to be pumped out by wells? Get info before proceeding. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: open mike Date: 02 Jun 11 - 01:31 PM a ram pump uses water pressure to move or lift water... usually it takes 9 gallons to lift one gallon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_ram also lots of simple 12 volt solar pumps avaialable ask all the pot growers in the hills...they have perfected the use of this technology! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: gnu Date: 02 Jun 11 - 02:48 PM JiK... "Bobert's not mentioned any problem with controlling where the wet spot is, but that may just be 'cause his back step is so handy. The rest of us can consider, and benefit from, keeping proper control of where we make one. " Ooooohhh... yer a good straight-man John. >;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: GUEST Date: 02 Jun 11 - 11:36 PM Poster is most likely Gargoyle If you are in the any of several western states (west of the Mississippi) EVERY well,and spring, and creek, and river (producing or dry or plugged - water, gas or oil) since about 1920 .... is ON RECORD. You can also consult CURRENT stream flow for almost every small stream tributary ANYWHERE - Any State - in the U.S.A. waterdata.usgs.gov/nwis/rt But you are Bobert - so why does it matter - a jug at yer head, a jug at yer feet .... nothin doin this year that won't keep., |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: GUEST Date: 02 Jun 11 - 11:45 PM Poster is most likely Gargoyle OK - You are in North Carolina. Got the address on GPS. E-Mailed Rufus, the local Democratic political cooridinator. The weekend has begun ... Expect a county agent to drop by this coming Tuesday or Wednesday ... they will explain what you can or can-not do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: JohnInKansas Date: 02 Jun 11 - 11:59 PM Anonymous GUEST speaks forcefully, but apparently hasn't really attempted to use the data cited. Many streams and wells are listed as "rumored," "unevaluated," "owner unknown" and by other unhelpful classifications, and much of the data is from ca. 1920 and reports streams (and even some rivers) that have moved themselves by significant distances since the information was recorded. Especially notable is the number of "free flowing streams" in the record in Kansas that haven't had any water in them since eastern Colorado (and to lesser extent Nebraska) decided that they could ignore the regs and steal all the water that's owned by Kansas. The USGS data files can be helpful in some cases, but are by no means complete or current in all cases. A similar situation exists with respect to topographical information, which is available for many areas in great detail EXCEPT that a special program is required to read the data, and the USGS officially states that the program is no longer available because "the guy who wrote it" retired and NOBODY ELSE (at USGS) KNOWS HOW TO MAKE IT WORK. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 03 Jun 11 - 12:54 PM Ya nailed me, open mike. i was trying to Bobert (whose career was social work) to realize the possible complexity of this without triggering "She's just woman -- don't listen to her." How does it feel to be a social vandal? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Jeri Date: 03 Jun 11 - 02:13 PM I have the ability to embed the Looney Tunes theme song in this thread, but somehow, I think Joe might not like it so much.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 03 Jun 11 - 04:08 PM Water won't flow uphill Bob. Creating pressure through the force of the current is possible, especially if several consecutive reductions in pipe diameter are used. But how much pressure would be required to overcome the force of gravity? I would think the pipe would have to reach its final reduction size, and have already run downhill for a substantial distance, before it would gather enough pressure to flow uphill for any significant distance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Penny S. Date: 04 Jun 11 - 03:53 AM I am suddenly reminded of St Eanswyth of Folkestone, who, I was taught, drove her crozier into a spring some miles from her abbey, and drew it along the ground, the water following her, including going down the side of a valley, across the stream at the bottom and up the other side before continuing to the abbey. I was shown the pond it fed, and told the miracle was still working. Which it wasn't, because the aqueduct had been cut some years before, and I saw where the water fell down from a channel like a mill leat into the little stream below. (Didn't know that was what I was looking at at the time - and it's all hidden, now.) The water had run down the aqueduct from early Saxon times until about 1900, supplying the town, and probably the teacher who showed me was alive when it was running, before the water company put the supply into pipes. It was a very sophisticated piece of surveying and engineering for a teenage Saxon princess (even if it does not include a reverse siphon), but doesn't help Bobert, as he needs to move the water uphill, and not along a contour. Ram or pump, he needs. Or a bucket chain on a cable run like a ski lift, which he could operate with pedals like a bicycle. (Meccano had a mock up of this sort of thing called a Telfer. Minus bike drive.) (Some ancient relation of mine had a Telfer from his chalk pit to the nearby creek.) Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: GUEST,Paul Burke Date: 04 Jun 11 - 06:42 AM A model of la Machine de Marly would both add a garden feature and pump water to the pond, while giving you many hours of fun maintaining it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: JohnInKansas Date: 05 Jun 11 - 03:26 AM Several people have mentioned a requirement for a hydraulic ram pump of reasonable efficiency being ... if several consecutive reductions in pipe diameter are used. It should be noted that the sequence of pipes of reducing diameters is merely a "practical method" of approximating the "ideal" of a smooth exponentially decreasing pipe diameter. Several "hunting horns" incorporate close approximations to the theoretically preferred exponential taper, but I'm at a loss to see an easy way of straightening one out sufficiently to place the large inlet end at sufficient elevation above the smaller end in the supply stream. Some might suggest that taking a hammer to a selection of such horns to see how "straight" (or maybe they're thinking "flat") they could be made might be a worthwhile undertaking, but I suspect their motivation might be more related to the common uses of such horns rather than the practical improvement of hydraulic devices. And it seems that those instruments most appropriately nominated to be chucked into a stream seldom incorporate even approximately "smoothly tapered" bores - or even identifiable bores of any kind. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: GUEST,Paul Burke Date: 05 Jun 11 - 07:26 AM A useful collection of ideas |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Bobert Date: 05 Jun 11 - 09:21 AM I'm not too sure I want government people crawling all over our property... The pond was obviously put in to be a pond... the stream which feeds it has, for some reason, all but dried up... Sure, rain falls are down but not that much... I'm leaning toward pumping enough water from my other stream (on my property) to fill it with a 3 inch gas powered pump just to get the water level to the spill pipe... BTW, the water that is in the pond goes down the spill pipe and into the good stream... Then once it is full use a 110 volt submersible pump for maintenance... of that level... Right now the pond is down about 15 inches and being about a half an acre I reckon would take several hours of pumping to get it filled... BTW, Part 2... This is mostly rural here with large tracks of corn, wheat and soy bean fields... There doesn't seem to be any of those irrigation apparatuses that I've seen back in Virginia so I don't think that anyone is using the water from the good stream to irrigate crops... That's my situation... I have, however, considered buying bentonite clay and taking bags out in my canoe and broadcasting it over the pond in the hopes that it will seal the bottom... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Penny S. Date: 05 Jun 11 - 04:16 PM Is bentonite the best material - I've got a sample of it, and it absorbs so much water that it can end up like cream? Would that really seal your pond? Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: gnu Date: 05 Jun 11 - 05:48 PM Bentonite would seal the crack of yer... you know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: gnu Date: 05 Jun 11 - 05:51 PM BTW Bobert... how big is this pond? X X Y er whatever and D? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: open mike Date: 05 Jun 11 - 06:05 PM heck, he is in Kansas, of course.. really...12 volt solar pumps are plentiful and easy.. look at your local farm or tractor store, http://www.backwoodssolar.com/catalog/pumps.htm |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: JohnInKansas Date: 05 Jun 11 - 07:23 PM the stream which feeds it has, for some reason, all but dried up Even if there's nobody pulling water out to irrigate upstream, there are lots of other methods of "diversion" that may have reduced the upstream supply of water to the stream. Lots of "farmland" in my area is subject to poor drainage, and some was unusable during most seasons due to shallow standing water, so "drainages" have been improved, often by laying "perf pipe" under the soil to drain the low spots into some convenient nearby lower spot. If your depleted stream depends on seasonal runoff, and somebody upstream diverts that runoff (by improving drainage?), you don't have a stream any longer. And if your pond depends on a stream that disappears, you don't have a viable ("natural") pond any more. If you have (or can obtain?) reasonably strong evidence that the pond previously filled naturally, and can identify a change that someone upstream has made that caused the stream to dry up, you probably have a classic "water rights case," and if you pursue it vigorously your grandchildren might be awarded a judgement for compensation so that after the subsequent suits for payment your great grandchildren's nieces and nephews might eventually receive compensation of a dollar or two each - if they can be found by the eventual settlement arbitrator. (As a public-spirited citizen, you quite probably would want to pursue a case of this kind, since it may be expected to provide "pocket change" for a couple of generations of needy attorneys.) Of course, in order to pursue this sort of claim, you would need to document the situation before you make any changes to restore the pond since a successful restoration would vacate your abiltiy to "show harm." And if changes you make are present when the C of E guys come in to see what's happened upstream, somebody downstream will have documentation that your diversion of water from the other stream has caused them to suffer a crop failure. Even if the spillway puts any excess back into the stream it came from, surface evaporation from the "artificial pooling" may reduce the total downstream flow since you can't put back as much as you take out. Of course, before taking any action against the upstream person(s) who dried up your original stream, you'll have to be certain that the upstream person doesn't have a downstream cousin willing to file the retailatory suit over any restoration of the pond you might be ocnsidering, so local water-rights suits end up like a game of "spin the bottle" where the bottle points to the first asshole but eveybody eventually ends up getting If you go with your plan to pump water to the pond, you can respond to any serious complaints - should any appear - by just turning off the pump, which in a "small claim" case would likely be considered sufficient "remediation," while building a dam or otherwise "passively diverting" a flow might require a bulldozer to restore things to prior condition. (I know of at least two "unfinished dams" in my nearby area that date back to about 60 years ago - just from the "inbred branch" of some backdoor relatives.) A simple "go-back" plan can be important, and you probably have a fairly good one, even if by accident. If your existing pond retains some permanent water from its existing inflow, another option might be to dredge and deepen, using the muck you dredge out to build up the banks and reduce the water surface area - or just move some fill dirt. (You'd need planned plantings to stabilize the new banks?) The reduction in evaporative losses might help significantly to stabilize the net retention of water, although you might end up with a "garden pool" rather than a pond given the present size of the pond. Of course you'd have additional "dry ground" for the rock garden, and you could fish from the bank instead of needing a kayak. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: MarkS Date: 05 Jun 11 - 07:32 PM Dig a trench between the creek and the pond. Line it with pickles. This technique was used in an old Reginald Brentnor story, who tought us that..................... "Dill water runs steep." I'll go back into my cave now. Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Bobert Date: 05 Jun 11 - 08:07 PM Okay, the pond is about 200 feet long and about 80 feet wide at it's widest... As for water rights??? Hey, I'm the new kid on the block so the last thing I need to to is open up an cans of worms with the locals... As fir pickles??? I donno, Mark... That was purdy retarded... You didn't spike them pickles with some controled substances, did ya'??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Doug Chadwick Date: 06 Jun 11 - 02:54 AM Move to the coast. Water runs up the beach twice a day. DC |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: harmonic miner Date: 06 Jun 11 - 03:13 AM It's BS alright! To raise anything against gravity you need energy. You have to get it from somwhere, a pump of some kind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: GUEST,Jon Date: 06 Jun 11 - 03:44 AM There is energy in the flow of water. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: JohnInKansas Date: 06 Jun 11 - 06:07 AM I haven't found an accurate formula, but one "pond designer" asserts that in the southwest US loss of about an inch per day due to evaporation is fairly common, although in "temperate areas" about a quarter inch is more common. The latter comment is adjusted by the notation that with a lot of vegetation the plant transpiration can blow off an inch per day even where temperatures are pretty moderate. Your 200 ft long pond, with a maximum width of 80 feet suggests an "average width" of perhaps 40 ft, or 8,000 sq feet of water surface. Evaporation of 1/4 inch would give you a daily loss of only about 33 cubic feet, and 7.5 gal/ft3 gets to about 240 gallons per day. At the higher evaporation/transpiration rates (an inch per day) you might need 4x that (900+ gallons per day?). Since the source for these estimates was a guy who's business depends on scaring people into letting him do their ponds for them, they may be "a little distorted"(?). Even 1,000 gallons per day is probably not too unreasonable with a fairly modest gas or electric pump (30 gpm?), running for a few hours a day; but I've found the "rated rates" a little on the optimistic side for the few I've had occasion to use. It's easier to find honest 30 gph ratings, which may be a bit marginal if you really need lots of replenishing. The same site does suggest that you should be able to tell whether you're losing water due to leakage in addition to evaporation by putting a bucket of water on the bank (screened to keep the moose from drinking it?) and comparing the drop in pond surface with the drop in bucket depth (over a few days time?). I'd think you'd get better accuracy if the bucket was at least sunk into the bank, so that the water in the bucket is at "ground temperature," but that may not be necessary. The article probably refers to "small pools" where the measurement would easier, but with a few days rather than one or two you should be able to get good ideat. If you have a larger suface, like a stock tank or a wading pool that you can leave undisturbed for a few days it might also help at getting a better comparison. A stake in the water should suffice for a "depth gage" for the pond if you use neat skinny marks for accuracy, and don't have too much wave action. The commercial "pool builders" don't seem to place much faith in bottom improvements via something like your idea of dumping some bentonite in; but again - they're in it for the profit and may be biased. Their recommendation is that even good clay should be "compacted thoroughly" with the pond empty, if you really need to stop seepage - but I can't vouch for that recommendation. You might get a fair amount of bottom compaction even with the water in the pond with a couple of sticks of dynamite; but that would wake up the neighbors - and possibly empty the pond anyway. Should that happen, be careful about dragging the sheepsfoot around with your Kubota. Them bottoms can be treacherous when they've been wet for a while. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: gnu Date: 06 Jun 11 - 02:17 PM Ya gotta mix the bentonite with sand er else yer bentonite will simply wash away, even if it gets evenly distributed which ain't likely. Now, ya can drop in bentonite liners (mats) but ya gotta seal tha seams with a sand/bentonite mix and that ain't easy under yer water. AND, ya gotta have some big quip ta handle tha rolls... and a bank account that can handle em too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: JohnInKansas Date: 06 Jun 11 - 02:46 PM Ya can't just dump it in and pack it down with a couple of boom sticks? In that neighborhood they'd probaly just think ya wuz fishin'. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Penny S. Date: 07 Jun 11 - 02:31 AM In Sussex, people built dew ponds for the sheep on the Chalk, by lining dug hollows with "puddled clay" which was ordinary clay trodden in by cattle, the treading making sure there were no cracks. According to Kipling, these ponds were "unfed, but never" failing. I think a lot are now dry, but they were fed by rain. We're a wetter place than Bobert's. Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Louie Roy Date: 07 Jun 11 - 10:19 AM There is a plastic product available that will pump a 25 foot head without any electricity and has been on the market for at least 30 years and is used mostly in septic systems.It is placed in the sepyic tank and when it fills up it pumps out 90 gallon of sewerage water to the drain field and then quits until it fills up again |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Rapparee Date: 07 Jun 11 - 10:27 AM Wait for Hurricane Alfonse. That'll fill it us. 'Course it might also be with trees, your house, your car.... Better yet, since yer so impatient, take a hike up the creek that used to feed the pond and find out what stopped the water flow. Let's say that you find the flow was stopped by somebody upstream building a dam. Like JiK says, you got a case for court -- and water rights don't depend upon the owner but upon how long the pond was there and stuff like that. Alternately, a few stick of dynamite.... Remember, the problem could be on your own land. Or (and I really like this idea!), back up two trucks of liquid hydrogen and one of liquid oxygen. Run hoses from each out to the center of the pond and open the valves! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: maeve Date: 07 Jun 11 - 10:34 AM This may be of interest, Bobert: Three methods, two forms of Bentonite |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: gnu Date: 07 Jun 11 - 03:43 PM "Sprinkle"? Never heard of it and it seems pretty dicey to me. Of course, the fuel tank farms I designed and built are high and dry and the slurry walls were by high pressure injection. No ponds involved. Bobert... let us know what kinda coin they are talkin eh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: GUEST Date: 07 Jun 11 - 06:06 PM I'm leaning toward the sprinkle method... It really can't wash away... John may be on to something about packing it... I was thinkin' about a lawn roller... Sprinkle the stuff and pull a heavy water filled lawn roller over the bottom with a long heavy rope and my tractor??? I donno... Maybe I fill it in and turn it into a big vegetable garden??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Rapparee Date: 07 Jun 11 - 07:53 PM Have you ever considered pisciculture? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: gnu Date: 07 Jun 11 - 08:11 PM "It really can't wash away" I didn't know they made a pellet form mix. Certainly worthinvestigating but I still have my doubts about it's application/effectiveness. From the website, you shouldn't have to "roll it" if it's spread evenly and sufficiently. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: JohnInKansas Date: 07 Jun 11 - 09:24 PM Sprinkle the stuff and pull a heavy water filled lawn roller over the bottom with a long heavy rope and my tractor??? ??? Are you able to drain the pond in order to prep the bottom???? If so, you don't need a really heavy roller, although a "sheepsfoot" roller would compact the soil better, with fewer passes than a simple cylinder. If you're thinking of compacting under water, remember that the water in a roller has about the same density as the water it displaces, so you don't really get much more surface load than if you used the roller empty on dry ground. If you're jury-riggin' your own roller, maybe filling it with concrete ... but a round roller won't compact more than the top inch or so, regardless. It ain't the pounds that does it deeper, it's the pounds per square inch. If you can drain the pond and let a dozen cows tromp around in it for a few days, you might get it pretty well mashed in without a lot of mechanical assistance. Or if you can get the water "wadin' depth" you might just have a mud rasslin' contest if you can get 'nuff drunken rasslers. (but I'm not sure you could convince the gals here that the Bentonite is "brown jello"). John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Fossil Date: 07 Jun 11 - 11:25 PM What Penny S was talking about is a Sussex "dew pond", generally built high up on the South Downs (chalk hills) in Sussex, UK. This is a circular excavation in the chalk, lined with impervious material like clay. They have no water source at all, but rely on the fact that the air at the top of the hill is cooled by altitude and as water condenses as dew it is trapped by the clay and accumulates over time to form a pond. Also, I suppose, they get filled by rain water from time to time. Probably in the Google somewhere. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Fossil Date: 07 Jun 11 - 11:33 PM Dew ponds: here we are then: "The gang of dew-pond makers commence operations by hollowing out the earth for a space far in excess of the apparent requirements of the proposed pond. They then thickly cover the whole of the hollow with a coating of dry straw. The straw in turn is covered by a layer of well-chosen, finely puddled clay, and the upper surface of the clay is then closely strewn with stones. Care has to be taken that the margin of the straw is effectively protected by clay. The pond will eventually become filled with water, the more rapidly the larger it is, even though no rain may fall. If such a structure is situated on the summit of a down, during the warmth of a summer day the earth will have stored a considerable amount of heat, while the pond, protected from this heat by the non-conductivity of the straw, is at the same time chilled by the process of evaporation from the puddled clay. The consequence is that during the night the warm air is condensed on the surface of the cold clay. As the condensation during the night is in excess of the evaporation during the day, the pond becomes, night by night, gradually filled. Theoretically, we may observe that during the day, the air being comparatively charged with moisture, evaporation is necessarily less than the precipitation during the night. In practice it is found that the pond will constantly yield a supply of the purest water." Easy, isn't it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Donuel Date: 08 Jun 11 - 03:48 PM the oldest way known to pump water anywhere, except for the foot driven water wheel. more for the curious http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/piramides/esp_piramide_11a.htm |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Penny S. Date: 09 Jun 11 - 12:19 PM Thanks for that, Fossil. I wonder if the rising of air up the slope of the Downs had anything to do with making condensation more likely. Not relevant to Bobert, of course, apart from the clay puddling. The Bentonite site was interesting - if the company has been going a while without complaints, the methods presumably work. Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Fossil Date: 09 Jun 11 - 06:57 PM Regarding the mechanism of a dew pond, I know from personal experience that the tops of the South Downs can get pretty hot, but they can also get very chilly at night. Perhaps dew-ponds work better up high, as the temperature differential between daytime and night-time is greater than down on the plain. Dunno, really, but I see no reason why they shouldn't work anywhere. In 2011, my guess would be that you could find more effective insulation material than straw to underlay your clay. I believe that most of the dew-ponds that failed, did so because the straw got wet or decayed, hence lost the insulation. Some kind of really thick glass-fibre or plastic closed-cell foam would probably do the trick. I have abolutely no intention of trying to build one, however! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas? From: Penny S. Date: 10 Jun 11 - 04:38 AM It also gets pretty windy up there, which would encourage evaporation. I have difficulty ruling out rain as a major factor in keeping them full, though - until recently. And an evaporated pond would crack, wouldn't it. I expect that back in the days when my great-grandfather was up there with his sheep, the ponds were regularly maintained, and what we see in failed ponds is the result of not doing it. I did see something on TV looking very like a dewpond in the middle of a pasture in Italy, at the bottom of a valley. It was on a program in which it was being argued that what Constantine saw at the Milvian Bridge was a meteorite, and that this pond was its crater. I had my doubts. Penny |
