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BS: Fair Society - If you have the Jackboots

SPB-Cooperator 05 Jun 11 - 06:33 AM
GUEST,Paul Burke 05 Jun 11 - 06:58 AM
SPB-Cooperator 05 Jun 11 - 06:59 AM
SPB-Cooperator 05 Jun 11 - 07:09 AM
GUEST,Paul Burke 05 Jun 11 - 07:22 AM
DMcG 05 Jun 11 - 09:31 AM
Musket 05 Jun 11 - 01:26 PM
Richard Bridge 05 Jun 11 - 02:43 PM
SPB-Cooperator 05 Jun 11 - 03:51 PM
SPB-Cooperator 05 Jun 11 - 04:21 PM
Little Robyn 05 Jun 11 - 05:38 PM
J-boy 06 Jun 11 - 12:12 AM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Jun 11 - 02:36 PM
Musket 07 Jun 11 - 03:22 AM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Jun 11 - 06:29 AM
Musket 07 Jun 11 - 08:43 AM
J-boy 08 Jun 11 - 03:01 AM
alanabit 09 Jun 11 - 04:32 AM
Richard Bridge 09 Jun 11 - 07:09 AM
Musket 09 Jun 11 - 09:50 AM

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Subject: BS: Fair Society - If you have the Jackboots
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Jun 11 - 06:33 AM

I am sitting at work this weekend putting together budgets for the next four years for a charity, no sign of any opportunity to include any cost of living increases. Wages have been frozen since April 2010, and are likely to remain so until at least March 2015.

Also having to look at which posts will have to be lost due to funding cuts.

And then looking at the number of service users that will lose support.

Of course everyone is in it together? Excpet for transport workers who have been awarded last month more than 4% increase - because they have the power to kick the rest of us in the teeth if they don't get there own way.

The final insult of course is that the charity's staff are paying much higher fares out out there diminishing wages.

This is an insult to the whole principle of trade-unionism - to protect the interests of the powerless. Thatcher should be proud of them - getting rich by kicking the shit out of the poor!

Oh well, thats de-stressed my a little bit, back to budgeting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fair Society - If you have the Jackboots
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 05 Jun 11 - 06:58 AM

When did you take up writing Daily Mail leaders?


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Subject: RE: BS: Fair Society - If you have the Jackboots
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Jun 11 - 06:59 AM

Never!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Fair Society - If you have the Jackboots
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Jun 11 - 07:09 AM

I am complaining about a government that bends over backwards to appease anyone who might inconvenience the bankers on their journey to work, and stands back while social care organisations go into meltdown and social care workers are thrown on the scrapheap - and at the same time suggesting that charities shuold do something more 'useful' like running libraries.

I am also complaining that legal aid reforms (ie cuts), are putting justice in the hands of the most well off, while leaving the voluntary sector to pick up the pieces - oh, but it can't because the same government has cut funding so there are less and less community advocates.

I am complaining that the poorest in society are becoming more and more disenfranchised and demonised.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fair Society - If you have the Jackboots
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 05 Jun 11 - 07:22 AM

Why are you complaining about wprkers using the only power they have to improve their conditions? They aren't the problem; malicious economists are driving the cuts, not transport workers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fair Society - If you have the Jackboots
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Jun 11 - 09:31 AM

From a martial artd web site:
When grappling with an opponent,there is a way to take them down using their own strength against them.Using this method takes timing and patience.

The technique is not restricted to physical sports


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Subject: RE: BS: Fair Society - If you have the Jackboots
From: Musket
Date: 05 Jun 11 - 01:26 PM

I thought the principle of trade unionism was to protect its members, not the powerless as such. If I were in a trade union, (and haven't been since leaving the pit in the mid '80s) I would like to think my dues were being used to protect my interest. if I wish to protect others interests, there are bodies around I could support, but my union had better be looking after my colleagues and I.

Yes, pay freezes hurt, and unless inflation is zero, they are really pay cuts too. However, as much I can empathise that sitting at the weekend trying to work out budgets is not nice, and as much as I would agree that getting something off your chest can be cathartic.. I'm not sure I see where your swipe is aimed?

Clearly, looking at your sweeping swipe at transport workers, we are not in this together after all. If Th*tcher had to be proud of anybody here it would be your good self I'm afraid. Not for kicking the shit out of the poor but for performing her legacy, to wit; divide and conquer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fair Society - If you have the Jackboots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jun 11 - 02:43 PM

Some of us knew that the "Big Society" was all about getting the poor to feel sympathy for the poor and relive business or government of the burden. The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists.

Keep studying grammar Mather, you might learn something one day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fair Society - If you have the Jackboots
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Jun 11 - 03:51 PM

The legacy I was referring to was that which encouraged dog eat dog, no matter what the social cost is.

I also believe in principals of solidarity - but the lead has to come form the strong, not the weak. I would have more sympathy if the powerful unions were showing more solidarity to the disenfranchised, but what I am reading this is that anyone with power albeit economic, or having a powerful bargaining tool can and do use this to their advantage, usually to the detriment of the powerless.

I have read transport unions arguments that they are paid derisory pay compared with their managers - but what happens in the end is that whatever they 'win' is not at the expense of management, but at the expense of those who, for example, are on minimum wage, and have to make choices between going to work and how much they spend on feeding their families.

My 'rant' isn't solely directed to unions, but to a much greater extent at the current government, whose policies are pushing more and more people into poverty, and at the same time demonising them for being benefit claimants.

it could be argued that in any revolution there would be 'collateral damage', but it borders on Stalinism where certain powerful unions look towards overthrowing their masters, as long as someone else faces the cannons.

Trade Unionism grew from a time when capitalists held the power of life and death over workers. But now the capitalist and powerful unions hold the power over the most poor, and they are the ones who suffer most.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fair Society - If you have the Jackboots
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Jun 11 - 04:21 PM

Ooops a missing 'S' should read capitalists and two different bodies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fair Society - If you have the Jackboots
From: Little Robyn
Date: 05 Jun 11 - 05:38 PM

Malicious economists are trying to run NZ as well. They say they want to change the target areas, to help those who need it most but they just rearrange the budgets so there's less money for all the needy out there. Then they blame it all on a benefit dependent society! There are fewer on Unemployment at the moment but the number on the Sickness benefit has gone way up. Just juggling numbers makes it look alright, and then you blame lazy malingerers for the high cost to the country.
So they'll have to cut funding for schools, hospitals, families....
Robyn


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Subject: RE: BS: Fair Society - If you have the Jackboots
From: J-boy
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 12:12 AM

Do you guys know anyone who might be hiring? Jason, an unemployed Yankee.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fair Society - If you have the Jackboots
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 02:36 PM

A four per cent increase in Britain today is in fact a pay cut, since inflation is running at five per cent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fair Society - If you have the Jackboots
From: Musket
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 03:22 AM

Tell you what Bridge, I'll study grammar if you study reality.

Note to self; If you edit your post, ensure the new wording and sentences scan because it can bring up grammatical mistakes when you restructure, and not having had Bridge's education, you may get pulled up for not being as clever as him. And far be it from him to criticise people for that....

I wish I was so clever I was cock sure of my opinion. After all, I might have written "Some of us thought..." rather than "Some of us knew..." Mind you, as much as a big society is a bit of a gimmick, as any government initiative is perceived, I never knew it was poor to poor. How does one become "poor" in order to perform altruistic deeds?

zzzzzz

Post war UK was about having a stake in society. Th*tcher and co said there was no such thing as society and ever since, people have seen themselves as consumers rather than stakeholders. Whilst Cameron was being somewhat naive, he did at least notice the problem. Sadly, it takes more than a politician to provide the answer. Especially one who cut his teeth in the heady days of Th*tcher as Norman Lamont's minder.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fair Society - If you have the Jackboots
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 06:29 AM

Philosophical pedantry: "Some of us knew" as against "some of us thought" - the problem with that distinction is that, when you really get down to it, we don't "know" anything, we just think we know it.

It's rather like complaining when people don't bother to say "in my opinion" when they are stating their opinion.

We add those kind of flourishes to what we say as a matter of politeness, not logic.l Politeness matters of course, but that's another thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fair Society - If you have the Jackboots
From: Musket
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 08:43 AM

Yeah but fighting philosophical pedantry with philosophical pedantry is fun.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fair Society - If you have the Jackboots
From: J-boy
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 03:01 AM

I miss Dr. Marten's English-made boots. I'm not a yob or skinhead but those shoes were much better when they were made in the UK. Is there a good equivalent available? The best shoes I ever owned were Doc Martens.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fair Society - If you have the Jackboots
From: alanabit
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 04:32 AM

I must admit that while I understand the frustration of the original poster, I am baffled that his ire is partly directed at the transport workers. The international banks have just been caught at the greatest fraud in human history. The governments have bailed them out with taxpayers' money, because otherwise the fraudsters would have collapsed all pension funds and brought the system to collapse. They now resent "government interference" (to some of us read "proper regulation") in the way they go about their business. If the transport workers were able to take a fraction of what the bankers stole out of the economy, I might feel some concern. As it is, our masters are telling us that the bankers know best. I believe in fairies and Father Christmas, but I am not buying that one. Still, folks believe what they want to - and it is none of my business to tell them any different!


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Subject: RE: BS: Fair Society - If you have the Jackboots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 07:09 AM

If we ALL said what was wrong someone might listen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fair Society - If you have the Jackboots
From: Musket
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 09:50 AM

I cannot disagree with that. If just a few of the voters an incumbent government feel they rely on questioned policies occasionally, it is usually the key to intervention.

However, international business and banking is a bit of a weird one, in that a national government has about as much sway as a parish council has in UK tax policy. Any government has to walk the tightrope between attracting inward investment and stopping them taking the piss.

Many say the government are not doing enough whilst those concerned feel they are doing too much. Gordon Brown, for all his faults did at least try to harness them in with the rest of the G8 in a feasible act of "kick 'em whilst they are down." But you know what happened?

If the G8 countries got tough, the G9 to 15 or so were ready to embrace them and their investment potential with open arms.

I don't know what the answer is, but I do know that in order to flourish, they need markets. For that, they need consumers. Sadly, their social safety net, (sub prime loans etc) is to be condemned, but the more you think about it, the more it mirrors the safety net of national governments.

If you want a social program, it needs paying for. The Adam Smith XI have won the test series and The Karl Marx All Stars go into the final test playing for pride. We pay for it through taxes and as much as anybody hates to hear it, 99.8% of the population have to work on the principle of the more you earn the more taxes you pay. That's why although I abhor the principle of huge bonuses for bankers I accept that it is the quickest most effective way to plough bank profits back to the treasury. If it didn't appear on pay cheques, it would appear off shore in the banks' overseas operations. Also, the government stake is not "bought back" and that is still to happen, bringing funds back into the treasury, (and in the process demonstrating why I for one cannot understand the need for short term austerity when an economic upturn would mean the bailout loans being recalled quicker.) Real Politik tastes bitter but when there is nothing left to drink...


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