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Help: Der Gooden Fluyt Hemel (Dutch recorder music

GUEST,leeneia 15 Jun 11 - 10:43 AM
GUEST,Grishka 15 Jun 11 - 12:29 PM
Jack Campin 15 Jun 11 - 02:59 PM
GUEST,leeneia 15 Jun 11 - 03:54 PM
Jack Campin 15 Jun 11 - 04:41 PM
Arthur_itus 15 Jun 11 - 05:19 PM
Jack Campin 15 Jun 11 - 06:15 PM
GUEST,leeneia 15 Jun 11 - 06:19 PM
Jack Campin 15 Jun 11 - 06:44 PM
GUEST,Grishka 15 Jun 11 - 06:52 PM
GUEST,Guest Betsy 15 Jun 11 - 07:36 PM
Jack Campin 15 Jun 11 - 08:07 PM
Nigel Parsons 16 Jun 11 - 04:20 AM
Jack Campin 16 Jun 11 - 08:13 AM
GUEST,leeneia 16 Jun 11 - 09:56 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 16 Jun 11 - 09:57 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 16 Jun 11 - 09:59 AM
GUEST,leeneia 16 Jun 11 - 10:20 AM
Nigel Parsons 16 Jun 11 - 11:34 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 16 Jun 11 - 01:03 PM
gnu 16 Jun 11 - 02:55 PM
GUEST,leeneia 16 Jun 11 - 03:02 PM
bfdk 16 Jun 11 - 05:27 PM
GUEST,leeneia 16 Jun 11 - 05:40 PM
gnu 16 Jun 11 - 06:42 PM
GUEST,leeneia 16 Jun 11 - 10:36 PM
GUEST,Grishka 17 Jun 11 - 06:04 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 17 Jun 11 - 06:38 AM
GUEST,leeneia 17 Jun 11 - 10:05 AM
GUEST,Grishka 17 Jun 11 - 10:40 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 17 Jun 11 - 10:54 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 17 Jun 11 - 11:58 AM
GUEST,Grishka 17 Jun 11 - 05:53 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 18 Jun 11 - 03:59 AM
Jack Campin 18 Jun 11 - 04:54 AM
GUEST,Grishka 18 Jun 11 - 05:58 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 18 Jun 11 - 06:05 AM
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Subject: help with Dutch (?) song/dance piece
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 10:43 AM

I'm back from early-music camp in Texas, and I'd like to share a piece from 1644 with my friends. If anybody knows Dutch or maybe Flemish, I'd like to know what the following things mean.

Title: der Gooden Fluyt Hemel
on 1st staff: Eerste Boovensanck (I think it's an s, not an f.)
on 2nd staff: 'tweede Boovensanck

On the staff lines after the end of Part One are huge letters that say 'Bl.' What does that mean?

Thanks


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Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 12:29 PM

Title: "The Flute (Recorder) Heaven of Gods"
on 1st staff: First top voice (soprano)
on 2nd staff: Second top voice (soprano)

Bl.: Bloody cryptic. Sorry. If I saw the sheet, I could guess.


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Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 02:59 PM

Could it mean something like "Turn the page"? - usually "Volti" in English scores of the period.


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Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 03:54 PM

I suppose it could mean that, but our teacher was conversant in English, French, German and Latin, with a specialty in early music all the way back to the medieval, and she didn't know what it meant.

I assume it must be something uncommon.

Thanks, Grishka. I'm glad to hear that the recorder is the flute of the gods. They must use thunder for percussion.

Is the language Dutch, then?

Why is there an apostrophe in front of tweede?


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Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 04:41 PM

If it means "Turn the page", it will be easy to tell - the rest of the tune will be overleaf.


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Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 05:19 PM

Bl. does not mean turn the page. Bl. more than likely means Page = Bladzijde.
The apostrophe is probably a typo error.

The language is very old Dutch. My wife is Dutch.
My wife is inclined to agree with Grishka.

HTH


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Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 06:15 PM

I've gone googling for a facsimile of this and can't find one.

Do you have a link for it?


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Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 06:19 PM

No link. We played from a copy of the actual MS from 1644. It was a class in reading early notation.

I could sign in and send you a MIDI, raised one step to be more guitar-friendly. It seems a rather austere piece at first, but given some percussion and a little danceness, it could be fun.

Gotta run - time to garden at church.


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Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 06:44 PM

No, I was interested in seeing a scan of the original score. Might be able to figure more out if I had it in front of me. There are modern editions of this that are easy enough to find.


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Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 06:52 PM

> I'm glad to hear that the recorder is the flute of the gods
You are entitled to see it that way, but the author thought of his book as a flute heaven owned by gods, and recorders (blokfluyten) as being a subspecies of fluyten. Modern spelling: (blok)fluiten.

> Why is there an apostrophe in front of tweede?
Probably not a typo, rather a spelling error, comparable to English confusing "its" with "it's". In 1644 a publisher was not required to be an expert in linguistic consequence, let alone in standard spelling which was scarcely defined anyway.

A MIDI won't help us with "Bl.". I am not convinced of "Bladzijde". I thought of "bladeren", which might have meant "turn over" (like German blättern), but I am not sure either.

Good luck with your blokfluit and with the church garden.


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Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song
From: GUEST,Guest Betsy
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 07:36 PM

Why not simply Bl = Blad (sheet /page) 1 , instead of the extended Bladzijde


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Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 08:07 PM

I found a scan of Der Fluyten Lust-Hof on the web (same publisher and period) and that doesn't appear to have any "Bl."s in it. So it doesn't seem to have been a universal convention, whatever it is.


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Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 04:20 AM

Of course, it may be intended to be read either as B1, or as Bl.
While printers would normally differentiate between the two, early typewriters (and I'm probably talking about up to 1950s) did not tend to have a '1' on the keyboard. the numeral was usually typed using the lower case 'L'.
'Old Keyboard'


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Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 08:13 AM

Matthysz used movable-type music typesetting, like Playford around the same time. It's icky to read compared with engraving, but he did have both 1's and i's.

If this sign was larger than his usual fonts he may well have cut a specal block for it with both letters together.


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Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 09:56 AM

Yes, it's far larger. It fills the entire staff from top to bottom. I think it is Bl. (short for 'Blat,' -- page) and it means to move to the next page. For one thing, if it were B1, it wouldn't need the period.

Speaking of apostrophes, at an earlier session I was given a Dutch song about the coming of night, and the first word was 'SNachts. (or 'Snachts) I was told that the 'S was short for a preposition. Interesting.


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Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 09:57 AM

's Nachts = Des nachts (at night) would be the correct way to write that.


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Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 09:59 AM

Blatt is German by the way, blad is Dutch. Blat is merely another misspelling.


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Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 10:20 AM

oops


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Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 11:34 AM

Speaking of apostrophes, at an earlier session I was given a Dutch song about the coming of night, and the first word was 'SNachts. (or 'Snachts) I was told that the 'S was short for a preposition. Interesting.
Like in the 'local' name for The Hague Den Haag, or 'S Gravenhage

Cheers
Nigel


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Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song- der Gooden Fluyt Hemel
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 01:03 PM

Again Nigel, the s is not capitalised as the apostrophe indicates the omitted letters so Des Graven Hage becomes 's Gravenhage


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Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song- der Gooden Fluyt Hemel
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 02:55 PM

Didn't read the thread... I'll PM someone who can crack the case if she is available.


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Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song- der Gooden Fluyt Hemel
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 03:02 PM

thanks, Peter, Nigel and gnu.


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Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song- der Gooden Fluyt Hemel
From: bfdk
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 05:27 PM

I got gnu's PM, but I'm not Dutch, I'm Danish. And this text isn't, so I have to admit I can't crack anything.

Bente


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Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song- der Gooden Fluyt Hemel
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 05:40 PM

Welcome to the privileged circle of the erudite anyway. bfdk. And thank you for responding.


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Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song- der Gooden Fluyt Hemel
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 06:42 PM

Well... I figured Bente could as she is fluent in a number of languages... quite talented as a professional translator. I was off base... sorry leeneia and Bente.


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Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song- der Gooden Fluyt Hemel
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 10:36 PM

No need to apologize, gnu. You were just inquiring, weren't you?


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Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song- der Gooden Fluyt Hemel
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 17 Jun 11 - 06:04 AM

I am not really good at Dutch, but now my money is on "Bladeren" or "Blader" (imperative). The meaning at that time could well have been "turn the page", like the German analogue, and as Jack (15 Jun 11 - 04:41 PM) guessed.

In current usage, the verb means either to browse at random, or to turn many pages to find something particular. Many other words have changed their meaning more radically.


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Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song- der Gooden Fluyt Hemel
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 17 Jun 11 - 06:38 AM

'Bladeren' for 'turn page' would idiomatically be unlikely. 'Bladeren' is more leafing through a book randomly, in this context 'omslaan' would be used.

Without actually looking at the book it's all guesswork, there doesn't seem to be any convention that is repeated in similar book and for all we know 'Bl' may mean the part was meant for the 'Blokfluit' (recorder). Which is also a random guess.


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Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song- der Gooden Fluyt Hemel
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 17 Jun 11 - 10:05 AM

That's a possibility.


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Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song- der Gooden Fluyt Hemel
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 17 Jun 11 - 10:40 AM

Peter, your first assertion exactly echoes a part of mine. We are all guessing and wrote so, but to challenge my guess, you should give an argument valid in 1644.

"Blokflui(/y)t"? At the end of part one? In a book entirely meant for recorders etc.? Not a single penny on that from me.

Yes, a scan of the page might give us some further hint. Leeneia, is the "Bl." on a new staff, otherwise empty? Or on the staff for the 2nd voice?


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Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song- der Gooden Fluyt Hemel
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 17 Jun 11 - 10:54 AM

'you should give an argument valid in 1644.'

'Bladeren' as an indication for turning the page is just not used in Dutch, not then, no now. What more do you want me to say?

Bl on an empty staff could mean 'Blanco' often used in Dutch to indicate a space left blank. Publications from the same period like 'Oude en nieuwe Hollantse boerenlieties en contredansen' use a variety of squiggles or lines to indicate various empty spaces.


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Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song- der Gooden Fluyt Hemel
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 17 Jun 11 - 11:58 AM

Just to address your:

In a book entirely meant for recorders etc.? Not a single penny on that from me.


The title of the collection is:


Der Gooden Fluyt-Hemel, gesiert met d'alder nieuwste Couranten, Pavanen, Serbanten, Branles, Almandes, Balletten, &c. meest met verscheyden Veranderingen, door veel vermaarde Musicyns tot de Fluit-en allerley Blaas- en Speel-tuygh, gestelt. Noch eenige Couranten, Balletten, Airs, &c. om met 2 & 3 Booven-zanghen, zoo wel voor de Viool als Fluit, of eenigh Blaas-tuygh te gebruycken

which clearly indicates the pieces were arranged for recorder, all sorts of wind and other instruments with additional 2 & 3 piece arrangements for both violin and flute/recorder or other wind instruments.

A book entirely meant for recorders? I wouldn't think so.


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Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song- der Gooden Fluyt Hemel
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 17 Jun 11 - 05:53 PM

Peter,

"Blanco" (meaning: "This space is blank for technical reasons only, please don't mistake it for a long rest or the end of the piece!") seems possible to me, "Blokfluit" - no. The title you mentioned, which I had googled before, indicates an entirely variable instrumentation for the whole book; that's what I meant by "recorders etc.".

Now, assume you are performing leeneia's piece on a violin, and after part one, you suddenly read "Bl.", would you quickly drop your fiddle and continue on a recorder? And then turn the page?

A more interesting question would be about the ambitus, allowing conclusions about the possible type(s) of recorder. leeneia, what is the lowest and highest note in those "boovensanck"s?

Bladeren in 1644: As you doubtless know, Peter, Dutch has changed completely since that time, whereas standard German remained essentially unchanged, due to Martin Luther's authority. German "blättern" is currently used to cover all the meanings in question.


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Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song- der Gooden Fluyt Hemel
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 03:59 AM

Then you can no doubt provide some examples of it's use in that way. I certainly have never come across 'bladeren' in that meaning. In either old or new texts.

I am not making a case for the 'Blokfluit' explanation, I was merely suggesting that while guessing at it you can make yourself believe about anything that sound halfway plausible.


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Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song- der Gooden Fluyt Hemel
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 04:54 AM

Was there some cognate of German "blick" that could have meant the same?

And SURELY somebody has at least two consecutive facsimile pages showing this symbol that they can upload somewhere, even if leeneia won't?


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Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song- der Gooden Fluyt Hemel
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 05:58 AM

Peter,

> Then you can no doubt provide some examples of it's use
> in that way.
No doubt not, not even of its use.

> I certainly have never come across 'bladeren' in that meaning.
That's quite a different statement than "is just not used in Dutch, not then, no now".

> I was merely suggesting that while guessing at it you can make
> yourself believe about anything that sound halfway plausible.
Not believe, just consider. That's the fun of guessing. Scientist would speak of a conjecture or hypothesis, which means the same.

Your "Blanco" wasn't bad. Maybe leeneia can tell us whether it would be justified by a lot of empty space (empty staves or even white).

Jack,
"blikken" means to look, sight, glance etc., "blik" is the noun or imperative for it. I do not see any connection to turning pages. But there is Latin "vi-...-de", translating something like "see there", and used in music to mark passages that may be skipped. Since our publisher tries to avoid non-Dutch words, he might have felt the urge to translate it in a very awkward manner. In this logic we would see "-ik" at the end of the adlib passage. I'd be quite surprised.


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Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song- der Gooden Fluyt Hemel
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 06:05 AM


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