Subject: BS: Kingsmills massacre by IRA From: Richard Bridge Date: 16 Jun 11 - 03:25 PM Well now there's a surprise. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13800042 |
Subject: RE: BS: Kingsmills massacre by IRA From: Dave the Gnome Date: 16 Jun 11 - 05:33 PM I have put my predictions as to where this thread will go and who will say what in a sealed envelope. In about a week I shall open the package and say 'Told you so...' DtG |
Subject: RE: BS: Kingsmills massacre by IRA From: GUEST,Irene Date: 16 Jun 11 - 05:49 PM Certainly a very sad event Richard, as was the events that took place the night previous in which a number of innocent Catholics lost their lives at the hands of Protestant Loyalists. Had that not have occurred, then possibly the event you report may not have happened. May all of them rest in peace http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reavey_and_O%27Dowd_killings |
Subject: RE: BS: Kingsmills massacre by IRA From: Dead Horse Date: 16 Jun 11 - 06:11 PM To put it bluntly and dispassionately - it was a huge blunder on someones part within the IRA. There was supposed to be a cease fire in operation, which is why there was no immediate claim of responsibility. Cease fires were normally rigidly observed. Even down to the gangs of kids who threw bricks at passing military vehicles being notable by their absence during these periods. The IRA were desperate to appear to have complete control of their members/units and so gain some credence as an 'army' and not just a bunch of murdering thugs. I find it more interesting that the survivor of Clonoe has the gall to accuse the British army of assault & battery. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13689786 The sectarian war continues - but nowadays it manifests itself in claims for compensation. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kingsmills massacre by IRA From: Wesley S Date: 16 Jun 11 - 07:51 PM "Had that not have occurred, then possibly the event you report may not have happened." Well Irene don't forget there was the shooting before that one and the shooting before THAT one and then there was the previous shooting and the one before that. So it's always somebody elses fault until everyone has been killed? Only THEN will Ireland know peace. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kingsmills massacre by IRA From: katlaughing Date: 16 Jun 11 - 08:39 PM IMO, better if it went back to the 7th century of Sister Fidelma, at least concerning laws and such. (Yes, I know she is a fictional character, but Peter Beresford is a noted expert on "those days" and women certainly were more equal and Ireland had the Brehon Laws. See fifth paragraph.) |
Subject: RE: BS: Kingsmills massacre by IRA From: Richard Bridge Date: 17 Jun 11 - 03:18 AM I'm not sure I see the relevance of that. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kingsmills massacre by IRA (1976) From: Mrrzy Date: 17 Jun 11 - 10:19 PM It's always better to know, though, than to wonder, even if what you know is horrible. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kingsmills massacre by IRA (1976) From: Sandy Mc Lean Date: 18 Jun 11 - 07:43 PM "But centures of hatred have ears that cannot hear, An eye for an eye was all that filled their mind, And an eye for another eye till everyone is blind." (Tommy Sands) |
Subject: RE: BS: Kingsmills massacre by IRA (1976) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Jun 11 - 05:57 AM "To put it bluntly and dispassionately - it was a huge blunder on someones part within the IRA. There was supposed to be a cease fire in operation, which is why there was no immediate claim of responsibility." More than that. IRA operations were supposed to be driven by political ideals. This was just squalid, sectarian slaughter. IRA claimed not to be about that. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kingsmills massacre by IRA (1976) From: Allan Conn Date: 20 Jun 11 - 01:51 AM "So it's always somebody elses fault until everyone has been killed?" Quite so and according to the stats on the Cain site the two sides didn't seem to exactly target each other. Of the thousands of people who died overall only about 20 odd Unionist paramilitaries were killed by the opposing paramilitaries and vice versa for the Republicans. weird war when the sides don't seem to actually target each other! |
Subject: RE: BS: Kingsmills massacre by IRA (1976) From: Jim Carroll Date: 21 Jun 11 - 02:01 AM Rather than adopting the "up our side/down your side" stance and concentrating on individual incidents, wouldn't it be far more productive to achieving peace to admit that, despite claims to the contrary, unrest in Northern Ireland continues, is not exclusive to one side or the other, and will continue until the real problems of Ireland are solved. http://www.irishhistorylinks.net/More_Links/NIDevelopmentsTimeline.html Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Kingsmills massacre by IRA (1976) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 21 Jun 11 - 02:17 AM You are so naive Jim. You think that getting rid of the border would "solve" "the real problems of Ireland." It would only enrage the other community. The real problem of Ireland will be solved when people stop caring about the border. We have gone a long way down the road to achieving that. Only a very few fanatical fundamentalists still believe that killing some more people will solve all Ireland's problems. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kingsmills massacre by IRA (1976) From: Dead Horse Date: 21 Jun 11 - 06:19 AM But those 'few' fanatical elements wield a lot of power...... |
Subject: RE: BS: Kingsmills massacre by IRA (1976) From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Jun 11 - 02:23 AM "You are so naive Jim." Then I suggest you take a close look at what is happening in Belfast at the present time as we approach yet another season of aggresively sectarian marches - this time the trouble is acknowledged to be instigated by Ulster Loyalists. A good start might be to put an end to this triumphalism once and for all. I think it was you who told us that the troubles were behind us and were blming "children" for last year's riots. Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Kingsmills massacre by IRA (1976) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 22 Jun 11 - 02:29 AM The UVF is said to be fomenting the violence for unknown reasons. I regard all the paramilitaries of all sides as thuggish, violent scum. Unlike Jim, I do not think that it would all stop if NI was handed over to Dublin. That is naive. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kingsmills massacre by IRA (1976) From: Dead Horse Date: 22 Jun 11 - 04:26 AM For up to date info see http://victims.org.uk/s08zhk/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1 Much of it makes for uncomfortable reading and is clearly biased against the various forms of the IRA - but then why wouldnt it be? As for the UVF they seem to have lost the plot. What they have done by instigating the latest riots is to unite the opposition and create anti unionist media publicity. The frustration of those unionists must be overwhelming, taking all the recent bombings, shootings and small scale riots being committed by their dissident neighbours. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kingsmills massacre by IRA (1976) From: Dead Horse Date: 22 Jun 11 - 04:28 AM Corrected link |
Subject: RE: BS: Kingsmills massacre by IRA (1976) From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Jun 11 - 07:20 AM "I do not think that it would all stop if NI was handed over to Dublin." Once again you are deliberately misrepresenting what I have said. Nobody has ever said it would stop with the ending of partition. I have said that there will never be peace while the border remains which, like the banning of aggressivly sectarian marches, it would be an essential first step. The present rioting is, as I said, a curtain-raiser to the main event - the marching season, at the end of which, what passes for normality will return http://www.irishhistorylinks.net/More_Links/NIDevelopmentsTimeline.html DH I suggest you run down the Guardian list where you'll find that the sectarian troubles are due to the behaviour of BOTH sides of the divide. Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Kingsmills massacre by IRA (1976) From: GUEST,Keith A Date: 22 Jun 11 - 08:36 AM "I have said that there will never be peace while the border remains" OK, and I am saying there will never be peace if you hand NI over to Dublin. Recent marching seasons have passed off peacefully Jim. Let's not give up on this year yet. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kingsmills massacre by IRA (1976) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 22 Jun 11 - 10:37 AM Confirming ident. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kingsmills massacre by IRA (1976) From: GUEST,roderick warner Date: 22 Jun 11 - 10:49 AM Anyone have any informed guesses as to whether the republic could actually afford a 'united ireland,' if one was on the table? (Which it probably won't be in the foreseeable future, but stranger things have happened). Hard financial reality trumping rhetoric... |
Subject: RE: BS: Kingsmills massacre by IRA (1976) From: Dead Horse Date: 22 Jun 11 - 02:11 PM "DH I suggest you run down the Guardian list where you'll find that the sectarian troubles are due to the behaviour of BOTH sides of the divide." Mr Carroll, what ever gave you the idea that I thought otherwise? I suggest you read what is written, not what you THINK is written. And who was it made the daft suggestion that Ireland could ever be united? The vast majority of the people of NI want nothing to do with Eire, and that includes most of the Catholic population. The Protestants would certainly never agree to it, and the bloodbath that would follow any attempt to enforce it would make what has happened to date seem like a friendly football match by comparison. It is all very well us lot pontificating about stuff that the majority of us know sod all about, but it is the people of Ulster who must decide, and I believe that decision has already been made. Now, how about starting a thread on giving those nice Argentinian gentlemen back their little island in the Atlantic, eh? Much less likely to stir up the s**t, that is. |
Subject: RE: BS: Kingsmills massacre by IRA (1976) From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Jun 11 - 03:10 PM "Recent marching seasons have passed off peacefully Jim." The last one caused 3/4 nights of rioting - was it "peaceful rioting" do you think? "and the bloodbath that would follow.." As distinct fom the 20/30 years bloodbath in Ireland and mainland Britain and the 89 years of disturbances, rioting, sectarian discrimination et al, not counting a civil war that has taken place since the country was partitioned, as well as sectarian discrimination, driving out of families and the burning down of homes of anybody with a different religion to your own...... The partition took place as a temporary measure - next year it celabrates its 90th birthday. Simple rule - draw a line across a country and guarantee yourself generations of bloodshed and unrest - as has been proven over all but the last century. "that the majority of us know sod all about...." Speak for youreself - I've witnessed the troubles the most of my life; in Liverpool where I grew up and in London when the bombs were going off throughout the 70s and 80s. As an atheist Brit now living in the Republic, I personally don't give a shit which god people choose to worship as long as they let me not to worhip mine - I'm pissed off with our lives being interfered with by by bomb throwing nutters of either persuasion and little men with bowler hats and funny handshakes poncing round lke tin soldiers every year, and I do not want it to be passed on to ruin the lives of yet another generation. And don't try and tell me what I know and don't know - you don't know me!! My apologies for getting you earlier point wrong - but a little anger management on your part might not go amiss and lead to rational discussion rather than beligerent pre-twelfth macho-strutting. Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Kingsmills massacre by IRA (1976) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 22 Jun 11 - 03:29 PM The only rioting last year was before the first march, and was fomented by dissident Republicans who had to bus in supporters because locals had no issue. Every parade, hundreds of them, even the big Derry ones, passed off without trouble. Try to deprive the prods of their summer parades, their one and only cultural celebration, and far from bringing peace you will stir up trouble in spades. Stop being so sectarian and naive Jim. |