BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?

Subject: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 02:51 PM

How can there not be a thread asking who in the world was visiting Vancouver that there were riots after the Stanley Cup final? I mean, Canadians are already laid back enough, but *Vancouver* (I mean, British Columbia is staid enough) puts the fast in fastidious) rioting? I just can't see it myself.

I blame the Americans for imperialistically spreading their personal-freedom-is-more-important-than-social-responsibility attitude.

I mean, come on, it's a GAME for crying out loud. It's not like they even killed our gladiators or anything worth investing that kind of emotion in, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: pdq
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 03:02 PM

The initial post is moronic, hateful, Anti-American crap from one of Mudcat's more pathetic bigots.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 03:10 PM

Whom would you hold responsible, pdq?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 03:17 PM

Myrrz, I know nothing of Vancouver's experience this year but by and large it is not Americans who riot after (inter)national games.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: pdq
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 03:17 PM

Everything you ever post is Anti-American garbage and racist. You are a hatemonger. Go away.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 03:22 PM

I *am* American, and usually far from racist. But that's for a different thread.

I have never heard of Canadians rioting about anything, sports or other. That's why I was so surprised, and started a thread, although apparently on the wrong foot with one reader at least. I thought y'all knew I was American and thus, can (sometimes) get away with dissing the worst of us. But really, I don't think it was the English yobbos this time, or was it? pdq, do you have an answer to the thread even if you don't like it, if you're going to post?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 03:30 PM

For what it's worth, Mrrzy, I have never thought of you as racist or or a hate-monger or anti-American. Most 'Catters know of your family history- can't speak for pdq's knowledge, of course. He tends to be selective.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: gnu
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 03:32 PM

"I blame the Americans for imperialistically spreading their personal-freedom-is-more-important-than-social-responsibility attitude."

Huh? Wha? I think you owe an explanation.... not just to Yanks. I believe you have offended Yanks AND Canucks. Sorry, but that is my take.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: maeve
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 03:33 PM

The on-the-scene commentary I saw and heard stated clearly that it was a Canadian-led mob behavior and that it was deplored by most people there. This behavior can be found in any culture and can be triggered by many motivations.

I find accusation and blaming to be unproductive; particularly in such a situation.

Regards,

Maeve

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 03:35 PM

The stories *I* have seen say it was your basic hooligan, who is present in many countries. Vancouver saw the same sort of thing at the Winter Olympics.

I do think it is stretching a LOT to assign the origins of this to the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 03:44 PM

> I blame the Americans for imperialistically spreading their personal-freedom-is-more-important-than-social-responsibility attitude.

I thought you were being tongue-in-cheeck. You mean you weren't?

You can't "spread" an attitude unless people are willing to adopt it themselves. Nobody's forcing them.


> I mean, come on, it's a GAME for crying out loud.

Does the name "Heysel Stadium" mean anything to you?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 03:46 PM

It just didn't seem like vancouver, somehow. If it's just sports as usual, then there is something wrong with sports.

Maybe I should have used the word exlanation rather than blame, but this was a bad thing, so calling the explanation blame is hardly a misuse of the term, and if that seems harsh, well, I condemn that kind of crap harshly. As pdq has condemned what they consider so worthy.

Am I just wrong that people in Canada tend to have better behavior than that, sports or nothing?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 03:48 PM

Maybe you should not have used the word "American" when referring to crap human behaviour which happens worldwide.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 03:51 PM

In any large city in any country there are ALWAYS some who skew the 'generalized' idea of behavior. You wouldn't judge all Americans by the inner city of Detroit, would you?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: gnu
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 03:58 PM

Then again, it could be Rogers Cable TV and Internet. Rogers is from BC innit?

I just had a bout with them a few hours ago. At least three houses next and I had the cable screwed up two days ago when they were working on the poles next to my house. The young girl MADE me (yeah, right) check all my connections before she would make an appointment for a service call between 11 and 2 tomorrow (they call twice and if you don't answer they cancel). That is when I told her I was recording this call for quality control purposes on my digital voice recorder. An hour ago, a truck showed up and the TV works again.

I'd say it's Rogers that caused the riots. Too bad the vehicles set on fire weren't Rogers service vehicles. That would be "AMERICAN"!

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 04:07 PM

I thought it was the French who set cars on fire! Maybe it was the Quebeqcois, if that's how you spell that not counting accents which I can't remember how to do here...

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 04:11 PM

Why do so many people find real life so challenging?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: gnu
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 04:11 PM

"Am I just wrong that people in Canada tend to have better behavior than that, sports or nothing? "

Yup. Maybe years ago but not anymore. I find people around here, in THE MARITIMES!!!!, are severely lacking in "Canuckiveness". Seriously, it's unreal, unfortunate, unWANTED and I see it on a daily basis. Perhaps you "call" it being "Americanized" and perhaps your terminology is in some way "correct" because it points to a problem which seems to be caused by mass media combined with affluence which is most commonly associated with the US but it sure took me the wrong way when I read your first post.

In other words, I can understand what you said and why you are saying (said) it but your choice of words PERHAPS wasn't quite appropriate... no?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 04:27 PM

Mrrzy, I must say, I'm a bit surprised.

I don't know where you get the idea that this is somehow related to "American imperialism." If you haven't been living in a cave for the last several decades, you MUST be aware that there is a percentage of "sports' fans who turn into bloody-minded hooligans and indulge themselves with rioting and vandalism after a whole list of large sports events.

Most notable are international competitions of one sort or another. World soccer championships seem to be especially prone to this sort of thing. Take a good look at staid, civilized Olde England during soccer season!

This kind of collective mindless loutishness has absolutely nothing to do with "American imperialism." Nor is it characteristic of ANY particular nationality or ethnic group.

It more that likely relates much more closely to an unfortunate mixture of large quantities of beer and adrenalin.

I believe you need to check your values and prejudices and have yourself a long think.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 04:46 PM

It more that likely relates much more closely to an unfortunate mixture of large quantities of beer and adrenalin.

I'm not saying they are not involved Don but in the UK, loutish behaviour is far more associated with (soccer) football than it is with other sports and I'd imagine for example rugby supporters may well enjoy a drink and get excited about the game without this sort of thing.

Whatever, I can't see any way "Americanism" can be blamed for this.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: gnu
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 04:49 PM

John... half of them are below average intelligence.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 04:52 PM

Don has summed it up perfectly!

This has nothing to do with "the spread of Americanism", it has to do with loutish young sports fans of the stupidest kind, too much beer, and too much adrenalin. It has happened before in Canada after Stanley Cup hockey games. There was the famous "Montreal Riot", for example, and I think there was one in Toronto once too. It happens just about anywhere now and then, wherever the young, the restless, the immature, and the not too bright gather to observe our culture's version of the Roman Games... ;-)

Here is a historical account of the famous 1955 hockey riot in Montreal, Canada.

The Richard Riot (in Montreal)

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 04:53 PM

Half of anything is below the MEDIAN - not necesssarily the mean, which is the mathematical average.

I am happy, I guess, that this is sports loutishness rather than American loutishness. But there is, as I've said, therefore, something wrong with sports.

Or is this sort of thing becoming normal?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 04:57 PM

Darn right there is something wrong with sports. It's too competitive. There's too much money at stake. It divides the public against one another. It's the modern day version of the Roman games and the gladiatorial combats. The very worst form of it now, in my opinion, is the Ultimate Fighting "sport" which is nothing more than a street fight held inside a ring...for big bucks. That's disgusting and corrupt, and it should not be legal to put on such a spectacle.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 04:58 PM

unfortunate mixture of large quantities of beer and adrenalin

....and testosterone.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 05:00 PM

Good point, Joe. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 05:01 PM

I also do agree with the above that the world-wide media vision of humanity is very Americanized, that America (and many but certainly not all Americans) want it to be that way and expend a lot of energy to ensure that it BE that way, and that this is what is, albeit insidiously, imperialistic.

It's like a calm assumption that of COURSE everybody should be like us.

But it is true that we aren't the only sports fanatics, and that the footballl riots so often described in the media are talking about soccer.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 05:01 PM

I personally think it is loutish to blame a country for misbehavior in another country, when the originally blamed country is not even all that interested in the sport. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 05:11 PM

AH!! Joe beat me to it, but this is what I was just about to post.

How many hundreds if not thousands of games like football, basketball, baseball, and for that matter, hockey occur every year WITHOUT there being any rioting? No, it's not SPORTS per se. Nor does it have anything to do with nationality.

It's down to sheer loutishness and nothing more.

Don Firth

P. S. And being male, I think I can fairly say that there is undoubtedly another ingredient in that mix of beer and adrenalin that burbles into a froth of hooliganism:   testosterone.

I've never heard of a riot breaking out after a Ladies' World Figure Skating Championship.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 05:12 PM

I think that, because the opposing team was from the USA, that perhaps the Americans are getting the blame for this. However I believe it has happened before, when the same Canadian team, were the defeated favourites

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 05:13 PM

Mrzzy, I don't know about actual figures over here but it is recognised that it is only a small minority of supporters who get involved and that there can be "professional troublemakers" involved. Still if you've got say a crowd of 20,000 and 5% turn nasty, you've got 1,000 people to deal with.

As for becoming normal, it's been part of UK football for as long as I can remember. My speculation is that it is less of a problem now over here than it has been in the past and I think the football clubs themselves take more of a stance against bad elements amongst their supporters. Lifetime bans from grounds for violent or hateful (eg. racist) behaviour aren't unheard of.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: gnu
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 05:13 PM

LH.... "and I think there was one in Toronto once too"

Not over the Stanley Cup recently! Hahahahahahahehehehehehe.

Q. What do you call 30 millionaires around a TV watching the   Stanley Cup playoffs ?
A. The   Toronto Maple Leafs
==============================

Q. What do the Maple Leafs   and Billy Graham have in common?
A. They both can make 70,000 people stand up and yell "Jesus Christ".
====================================
Q. How do you keep a Toronto Maple Leaf out of your yard?
A. Put up a goal net .
======================================
Q. What do you call a Maple Leaf with a   Stanley Cup   ring?
A. Real Old
====================================
Q. How many Maple Leafs does it take to win a   Stanley Cup ?
A. Nobody remembers.
=============================
   
Q. What do the Maple Leafs and possums have in common?
A. Both play dead at home and get killed on the road!

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 05:17 PM

LOL!!! You can't get me upset by dissing the hapless Leafs, man! Try it on Shane if you want a big reaction.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: GUEST,BobL
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 05:25 PM

Why do so many people find real life so challenging?

Just not used to it, I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 05:28 PM

"Everything you ever post is Anti-American garbage and racist."

Since when has there been a race called "Americans"?
.................................
Of course it's not just ice hockey or football. Here's a report of a slightly lower key bit of mayhem A drunken brawl, a celebrity call girl and tattooed men (and women)... whatever happened to a genteel day out at Ascot?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 05:36 PM

Citizens of the USA customarily refer to themselves as "Americans", McGrath....perhaps because it takes too long to say: "United Statesians" ;-)

"The United States of America" is an odd name for a country, but it derives from the fact that there were 13 colonies who joined together to fight the British, and they all considered themselves to be independent sovereign states, but joined in a federation.

Similarly, Holland called itself "The United Provinces" when several Dutch provinces joined together to throw out their colonial rulers from Spain. If they'd called themselves "The United Provinces of Europe", it would have been about as odd as what the American states decided to call themselves. America does not end at the USA's borders, it comprises everything from the North Pole to the tip of Tierre Del Fuego.

The whole name of Mexico, by the way, is "The United States of Mexico" (Los Estados Unidos de Mexico). That works a lot better, because it makes geographical sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 05:39 PM

I know that "Citizens of the USA customarily refer to themselves as "Americans" - but is there any "race" they all belong to, apart of course from the human race to which the rest of us belong as well?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 05:41 PM

My point being that anti-Americanism" may be deplorable, but it can't really be termed "racist".

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 05:45 PM

You read it wrong. No one said it was.

And what are most Americans..however they wish to define themselves, including North, South, Central Americans, Greenlanders, residents of various islands and protectorates and people who would like to become Americans or perhaps agree with our goals, however, poorly executed, doing today. Taking naps. Reading. Working. Golfing. Cleaning the shower. Pretty awful people, don't you think? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 05:52 PM

No, "American" is certainly not a term that designates race. Americans are of every race.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 06:17 PM

"American" is also not a shorthand term for "crass", "bullying", "obnoxious", or any other abuse that someone wants to sling. Or it should not be. But it too often is.

I've had people back down when challenged on this, and actually admit that they're just using it as a catch-all phrase. So I quote to them occasions when - not that long ago - their own nationality was spoken of in that same manner, and how offensive it is. Works wonders.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: gnu
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 06:23 PM

But the question is, are Canucks racey and, if so, is it because of American influence?

And, if you think that's a serious question, you don't know from Canuck.

Nevermind. It's all just a misunderstanding of words. We are all the same... pissed off at assholes... whether it's the rioters in Vancouver or the stunned bunny that leaves the shopping cart on one side of the aisle and sticks her/his fat ass the other side and then says "sorry" after holding us up for a minute while they are in oblivion.

Of course, it's a tad worse when we are talking cruise missiles and politicians who haven't got two fuckin clues to rub together but it still pisses one off... no?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 07:22 PM

Endo-anal cranial autoinsertion knows no national boundaries.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: JennieG
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 07:26 PM

I found this article interesting....it doesn't blame sports, or testosterone-fueled young blokes, but looks at a different aspect altogether.

Hockey 'riot' article

Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 07:39 PM

Yeah, good article. As he says, it could have happened anywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Joe_F
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 07:59 PM

This scandal is the first bad thing I have ever heard about Vancouver. I am sorry I have never been there.

As to what's wrong with sport, I recommend
The Sporting Spirit

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: meself
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 09:23 PM

I was at a riot the other night and a hockey game broke out ... (thank you, thank you).

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

As for Vancouver, they had a Stanley Cup riot in 1994 - not quite as bad as this one, but a riot none the less. And fine city as it may be, it has a very seamy side, as is well known in Canada. Not that it was the seamy-side that was out rioting, from what I could see on TV, but the city isn't quite the Shangri-la that some may think.

And an interesting fact: there were, apparently, 100,000 people gathered in downtown Vancouver on the evening of the riot.

Oh, one other thing: there is no shortage of yahoos, idiots and extremely violent people in Canada, and never has been, as far as I can tell. (But to a man, they will give you the time of day if you ask them nicely and if they're wearing a watch).

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 09:57 PM

The youth in the middle east riot for freedom and democracy.

The youth in Greece riot because their country is basically a f%#k-up

The youth in Spain riot for jobs

The youth in Vancouver riot over a hockey game.

That just about sums up the situation when you think about it.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: gnu
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 10:40 PM

sIx... well said. Sad, but well said.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 10:43 PM

The Football War (La guerra del fútbol, in Spanish), also known as the Soccer War or 100 hour War, was a four-day war fought by El Salvador and Honduras in 1969. It was caused by political conflicts between Hondurans and Salvadorans, namely issues concerning immigration from El Salvador to Honduras. These existing tensions between the two countries coincided with the inflamed rioting during the second North American qualifying round of the 1970 FIFA World Cup. On 14 July 1969, the Salvadoran army launched an attack against Honduras. The Organization of American States negotiated a cease-fire which took effect on 20 July, with the Salvadoran troops withdrawn in early August.

Eleven years later the two nations signed a peace treaty on 30 October 1980.

Now that's hooliganism.

Football hooliganism is relatively new in Switzerland. One incident, dubbed the 2006 Basel Hooligan Incident, 13 May 2006, occurred on the last day of the 2005-06 season, when FC Zürich defeated FC Basel at St. Jakob Park to win the Swiss championship with a last-minute goal. After the final whistle, angry Basel hooligans stormed the field and attacked Zürich players. The Zürich team were forced to celebrate in the upper deck of the stands while the fighting continued. There was similar fighting in the streets that night.

No, it's all England's fault!!!!

The first instance of football violence is unknown, as many football games have been played around the world for years, but football and violence could be arbitrarily traced back to at least the 14th century in England. In 1314, Edward II banned football (which then was a violent free-for-all involving rival villages fly-hacking a pig's bladder across the local heath) because he believed the disorder surrounding matches might lead to social unrest or even treason. The first alleged recorded instances of football hooliganism in the modern game took place in the 1880s in England, a period when gangs of supporters would intimidate neighbourhoods, as well as attack referees and opposing supporters and players. In 1885, after Preston North End beat Aston Villa 5-0 in a friendly match, the two teams were pelted with stones; attacked with sticks, punched, kicked and spat at. One Preston player was beaten so severely that he lost consciousness. Press reports of the time described the fans as "howling roughs". The following year, Preston fans fought Queen's Park fans in a railway station; the first alleged instance of football hooliganism away from a match. In 1905, several Preston fans were tried for hooliganism, including a "drunk and disorderly" 70 year old woman, following their match against Blackburn Rovers.

Check out "Football hooliganism" on Wikipedia for more.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 11:10 PM

""The United States of America" is an odd name for a country, but it derives from the fact that there were 13 colonies who joined together to fight the British, and they all considered themselves to be independent sovereign states, but joined in a federation."

Further to LH's observation, when The United States of America was created it was, in fact, the only group of states in the Americas to be so united. In fact, there was no other independent country in the hemisphere then. Hence the name was appropriate.

Finally, if the South had won the Civil War, we would now be the Untied States of America...

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 12:05 AM

To return to the thread's original proposition that the Vancouver riot is somehow a reflection of US sports values, I'm not personally aware of any riot having occurred in a US city which lost a major sporting event. Seems like US fans go uncontrollably apsehit when their teams win the big games, but handle losing rather stoically.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 12:36 AM

That's probably because they are too depressed when they lose to have the energy to riot... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 12:46 AM

This is hockey, right? Like rugby on ice skates with clubs? Who cares, anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 12:49 AM

To some people it's a religion, Art. ;-) I stopped caring about it by the end of the 1980s.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Janie
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 02:29 AM

Mrrzy, I am using this as an example of the dynamics on Mudcat (in my humble observations,). You are perceptive and direct enough yourself to understand this not a personal statement or attack on you.

Mrrzy's opening premise is outrageous, and I assume it was intended to be outrageous and trollish, knowing that Mrrzy is a very bright and informed woman, and not likely to ignorantly think the riots in Vancouver had anything to do with "Americanism," whatever the heck that means.

From the long history of the positions and posts Mrrzy has made on Mudcat, it is clear that she tends toward libertarian with liberal leanings. Because of that, most of the responses to her initial post have called her on the erroneous thinking, but have done so in moderate, non-reactionary voices, have failed to respond to her trolling in a manner that feeds the trollishness, and have not demanded that she own up to the trollishness. Because we perceive her in most respects as being aligned with shared points of view, we respond rather than react, and ignore the inflammatory factor, thus rendering it inflamable.

pdq did not react any differently to her initial outrageous assertion than would have several liberal or left-leaning members, had Mrrzy previously established her reputation on this site as being conservative or reactionary right wing.

An alternative and equally plausible explanation for the view expressed in Mrrzy's first post and the title of the thread is that she is an emotional thinker to the point that she has strong anti-American bias that significantly distorts her perceptions.

It seems to me the best explanation for the nearly entirely appropriate and thoughtful responses, vs emotionally reactionary and inflamatory reactions that turn a thread into shite in quick order, has to do with how we view the poster as much as how we view the idea.


Given all the above, pdq's reactionary reply is absolutely no different from the frequently seen knee jerk reactions of some of us liberal and left leaning posters when a conservative or right-winger posts a similarly outrageous assertion.

What I mostly see in this thread is the capacity to respond rather than react. Imagine a Mudcat where we liberals had the same tolerance for the errors or intentional trollish/provocateur postings of conservatives and reactionary right-wingers as we extend to people with the same traits who happen to have more in common with our our liberal or leftist leanings.

The responses to Mzzry largely offer gentle correction, does not put her on the spot for her trollishness, and therefore make her defensive. The reactions to pdq's posts, which are entirely in the same vein as Mzzry's initial posts are very different.

Why is it ok to tolerate the irrational thinking and inflamatory posts of a liberal without disparaging that person, while it is not ok to extend the same toleration to a conservative?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 02:47 AM

Excellent point, Janie. I've been wondering the same thing for a long time. I think it's a lot like a village of people who will willingly pardon one of their own, but stone a "heretic" or an outsider...for really doing the same thing as one of their own would, but supposedly not in the "approved" manner. It isn't what you do that counts under such circumstances. It's who you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Max Johnson
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 08:45 AM

It's not about Football or Soccer or Ice Hockey or, God forbid, Cricket.
It's about tribes.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 10:33 AM

Yup. Tribal consciousness. People in groups tend to act more stupidly and aggressively than people on their own. The same is true of dogs, come to think of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 11:06 AM

I agree with tribal but wonder why in the UK, the aggressive behaviour seems to be more common amongst football than say rugby supporters.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 12:05 PM

Ummm....Janie.... pdq's first two posts were personal attacks on Mrzzy's basic character.
You suggest that: "pdq's reactionary reply is absolutely no different from the frequently seen knee jerk reactions of some of us liberal and left leaning posters when a conservative or right-winger posts a similarly outrageous assertion."
1) It IS different from most replies I remember seeing insofaras it adds language like " moronic, hateful, Anti-American crap from one of Mudcat's more pathetic bigots.", that is personal attacks that sometimes get entire posts deleted.
2) It is a basic error to suggest that others "would have" reacted similarly in imaginary circumstances. A pre-emptory ad hominem?? *grin*

Mrrzy started on the wrong foot...pdq escalated it by name calling instead of simply debating the point and providing counter examples as several others did. Like some of the actual donnybrooks noted in the links, this group has slipped into a virtual version. Good thing there are no chairs or bottles to be wielded here. ☺

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 01:54 PM

I took Mrrzy's opening post as heavily tongue-in-cheek rather than in-your-face aggressive. A version of the normal pub talk (in the British Isles anyway) in which men routinely insult each other as a way of being friendly. Which can be risky when you aren't in the right company.
............................

"I agree with tribal but wonder why in the UK, the aggressive behaviour seems to be more common amongst football than say rugby supporters. "

It's often suggested that this is because in rugby the violence is carried out on the field of play, so spectators don't feel it necessary to indulge in it afterwards. But that can't apply in this case, since the level of violence that seesm routine in ice hockey matches in North America eclipses anything that would be permitted in any rugby match. (Or indeed any ice hockey match elsewhere, I suspect.)

Normally sporting riots tend to be between neighbouring teams playing Derby matches - the odd thing here is that the teams whose clash triggered this riot were so geographically distant. You can't get much further from Vancouver than Boston and still remain in the same continent.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Max Johnson
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 02:36 PM

Jon - They say that Rugby is a game for hooligans played by gentlemen.
Also, that Football is a game for gentlemen played by hooligans, that Cricket is a game for gentlemen played by gentlemen and that Ice hockey is a game for hooligans played by hooligans.
I suspect that large football stadia are more plentiful and are a more handy battleground. Also that the vast majority of fans just want to go and support their team. With their family if they're lucky enough to have a family that's interested.
A lot of the recent trouple between Scottish fans is about religious sectarianism, not about football. Between Italian fans or Spanish fans, it's political.
I can understand it even if I don't condone it, but what really troubles me is that it's starting to happen at test cricket matches. Unthinkable.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 02:50 PM

I can understand it even if I don't condone it, but what really troubles me is that it's starting to happen at test cricket matches. Unthinkable.

Cricket is one of very things I might at times consider myself "British" about. It's Unthinkable as you say...

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Janie
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 04:20 PM

Bill, I understand that and am not condoning pdq's behavior.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 04:58 PM

"A lot of the recent trouple between Scottish fans is about religious sectarianism, not about football."

I don't really buy that to tell you the truth. Yes there is a sectarian base to it but football is where it manifests itself. You simply can't divorce football from the sectarianism. There was a programme on several years ago highlighting supposedly anti-Catholic Rangers bigots and the TV crew were astonished to find that one of the ring leaders was married to a Catholic. The bigotry he showed mainly centered around the football. It's too easy a cop out for the clubs and fans to say it isn't about football it is jsut society. Admittedly I don't live in the west where the real problems are but as youngsters I had a bunch of mates and most of us supported one or toher of the Glasgow teams. Everyone would get on fine until Old Firm derby day then hell would break out - then it was fine the next day again!

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: GUEST,Alan Conn
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 05:23 PM

"I agree with tribal but wonder why in the UK, the aggressive behaviour seems to be more common amongst football than say rugby supporters. "

Often the fanbases have been different. For instance in Scotland football was the urban game where working class lads would go off to blow off steam. Rugby in the cities was played and watched by the more well off - or at least those from less disadvantaged areas. The only Scottish exception being my area in the Borders where rugby is the main working man's game. There are other big exceptions elsewhere too - for instance industrial south Wales is rugby mad and rugby league is very popular in the northern English cities. So like all stereotypes it doesn't fit the bill but I think it is safe enough to say that a young lad looking for a rumble in a big urban area is more likely to find it at football as he is more likely to go to football - and likewise anyone else likely to be drawn to that would know where to go. It is cultural too. For a while in the 80s a minority of England fans seemed to plan trouble. It was deliberate. On the other hands Scotland fans had been in trouble more for general drunkeness and over exubirant celebrations. The Scotland fans never developed the lets go and deliberately cause a riot habit of the 80s. Probably perversely because they saw England fans doing it and didn't want to be tarred with that brush. In fact they then seemed to make a real effort not to cause trouble. Never stopped them at club level of course:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 06:46 PM

Interesting Conn, thanks.

Btw, the first bit of football hooliganism was none of this urban stuff.

It was good old (N Wales) village stuff - Machno United vs Pydew Rovers I'd guess around 1970. I was just a kid and I haven't a clue what started it but the Machno supporters threw stones at the Pydew coach we were on as it drove away.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 06:58 PM

Americanism is certainly rife on the Mudcat. I just had my 'Green Lantern' thread turned into a 'Movie: Green Lantern' thread. We don't have Movies in the UK - We have pictures, films and flicks.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 08:44 PM

Dave the Gnome, go to www.bbc.co.uk/search/news/?q=movies

Count the number of times 'movies' appears; Americans usage is updating the dialects spoken in those little islands off the coast of Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: kendall
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 09:03 PM

I will never understand why a gang of adults gets so upset over a silly ball kicking thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 09:16 PM

Because they are subliminally upset about a lot of other stuff, and it gives them a convenient outlet.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 11:55 PM

I'm not a sports fan, but I do acknowledge that it's the only thing that keeps some people from eating a can of Drano.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 02:03 PM

"I blame the Americans for imperialistically spreading their personal-freedom-is-more-important-than-social-responsibility attitude."

I blame the people at the game. Most of 'em would have been Canadians. We can fuck up all by ourselves with no help from the Americans, thank you very much.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 02:25 PM

There was something on the news here that said the instigators weren't even hockey fans. They just figured tempers were hot and took advantage.

To blame Americans for getting Canadians to act badly is pretty arrogant. As if Canadians are easily controlled or just stupid. Bad behavior is just a human possibility, not confined to one nation, one sport's fans or one anything.

I also heard on the news that lots more people volunteered to help clean up the mess.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: DougR
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 02:32 PM

Who is to blame? It should be obvious to most folks here at the Mudcat: George W. Bush, of course.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Amos
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 02:36 PM

That's funny, DougR!!

But of course, wildly off-base. THe inventory of Geeorge Junior's sins and crimes and blaring gaffes and rampant stupidities is surely one of the longesat in our history of Presidential malfeasance, but even so does not extend to having much influence on Canadians, except by driving US citizens of conscience and sensibility across the border to become residents there.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 02:37 PM

Mrrzy,   Canadians are generally, very peaceful and orderly. About the only thing they do riot about is hockey. But they certainly do riot over hockey and it has nothing to do with the USA. I'm not sure why they do that. I have never felt the urge. But I suspect it is that in a very reserved society, If a young man gets worked up over a certain threshold, he no longer knows how to reign himself in. I think the Vancouver Police plan to look closely at the photos and videos and make public examples of the perps with help the next group of hockey fans in their quest to govern their own testosterone.

PDQ, "moronic", "hateful", "bigot", "racist" Isn't that more than a little over the top? If you are trying to decrease conflict in the Mudcat, calling people such strong names is not a productive approach. However if your aim is to emulate hateful, bigoted, moronic and racist assholes like Beck and Limbaugh, then by all means carry on. What you are doing may be childish, but it is entertaining.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Stu
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 03:02 PM

"Because they are subliminally upset about a lot of other stuff, and it gives them a convenient outlet."

Blimey . . . so me being upset because Big Eck defected from the Blues to the mighty Villa, then thinking about it a bit and then feeling that we might as well get behind the lad because he had rag all to work with at Small Heath and our team and youngsters are a different class and then feeling a little happier means . . . I've reconciled some internal subconscious conflict and am now at peace with my id and ego?

That's bostin that is.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Bert
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 03:57 PM

...then there is something wrong with sports...

The thing wrong is that there is only one sport. No matter the shape of the ball, the field, the rink, pool, track or whatever.

The only game nowadays is "How many steroids can you take without getting caught"

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 04:18 PM

So much cynicism from such a little place. Y'all ought to be writin protest songs! :-p

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 04:36 PM

The only game nowadays is "How many steroids can you take without getting caught"

Not quite. There's still Hurling, and Gaelic Football. And even in football (aka soccer) the only real hassles they seem to have about drugs are about them being used recreationally by players.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: gnu
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 04:51 PM

In the news... over 1M riot photos submitted to the pOlice. Six high profile peeps have surrendered to the pOlice... no charges laid as yet.

I wonder if they have any pics of Jean choking anyone? (Canuck joke eh?)

Meanwhile, Canuckistan is shooting and bombing peeps in Afghanistan... Libya...... it's fucking sick and unreal.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 05:32 PM

The only game nowadays is "How many steroids can you take without getting caught"

Again, Not quite.

In the U.S. there's also the very popular game "What obscenely large pots of money can be paid to adult men (and less often women) for playing childrens' games."

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 05:33 PM

That's funny, DougR!!

Funny? Not hardly.

Inane, yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 10:15 PM

"Jean choking anyone?" .... good one gnu

... and I agree with your Canuckistan line ... it is fucking sick and unreal.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 01:56 PM

Sports, I think, are intended to sublimate our violent us/them urges...

I would like to substitute the age war. Let's have all the youth on one side and all the grown-ups on the other.

That way, at *some* point, you have to change sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 02:12 PM

Unless you die young...

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 03:28 PM

>>>I would like to substitute the age war. Let's have all the youth on one side and all the grown-ups on the other.

That way, at *some* point, you have to change sides. <<

They did that already. They called it "The Sixties"

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 05:18 PM

Yeah, but those kids forgot to change sides! Did a little too much LDS...

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 09:05 PM

Too much LDS? So the Mormons were responsible for all that weird stuff that happened in th '60s, huh? Who'da thunk it?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: olddude
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 09:39 PM

It has nothing to do with Americans, Canadians or anything else. It happens everywhere. Have a look at the world cup games, there have been many riots. I have a different take. I think it is a group of criminals that use it as an excuse to loot. It happens in every country. In America as many other countries. We put our sins in the front window for everyone to see. That is a good thing, because then we can be appalled by such behavior and try to prevent it in the future. As others also do. This had little to do with sports, it is like what has happened here in America over the NBA final, an excuse to commit crime and loot store fronts. If there are a large group of people rioting, then the criminals can get away with it .. my take.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 06:02 AM

Football hooligans in the UK rarely seem to go in for looting as opposed to mayhem against each other.

A different phenomenon to what appears to have happened in Vancouver, which seems to have been more about smashing or nicking property, with violence towards people being mainly against people who tried to stop that, rather than between fans of the different teams.

Of course that is based on media coverage of one sort or anther which might have distorted what was really going on. It generally does.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 08:28 AM

By and large (Celtic/Rangers and Millwall fans the exception) football supporters are generally much better than they were in the 70's and 80's. I remember going on a date to a Bristol City football match back in 1970/1 and it was the most intimidating experience I'd ever known it so unnerving not enjoyable at all with vicious little skirmishes going on all the time. Not only was security not great back then Stadiums were not too hot on Health and Safety either. I do remember skinheads being forced to remove steel capped boots or thrown out only to cause trouble outside of the ground.

I realise that it is probably not like that now but if I want to watch a match I do it from the comfort of my chair. Crowds do appear to be more controlled these days so that the whole family can enjoy it without fear of getting in the way of any mindless violence but I vowed after that first game I went to that I would never want to ever do that again.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 11:33 AM

For many years I have seen United States sporting events on television, from baseball to Indy cars, and have been consistently impressed with the way in which Americans have turned their sporting occasions into family days out.

I have rarely seen any sign of violent behaviour, though of course I can't speak to the question of what happens after the match.

I would however be much happier taking my ten year old grandson to an American sports event, than to an English football match.

And surely the level of violence involved in Canadian ice hockey is legendary?

Ducks, and runs for cover.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: olddude
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 12:00 PM

Patsy
you think that was bad. How about having your daughter as an NFL cheerleader. Dang I nearly went postal a couple of times from drunk fans next to me shouting stuff. They found out pretty fast that was my kid ... glad those days are over

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 02:15 PM

As a reformed fan and poster owner of the Dallas Cowboy's Cheerleaders. I am inclined to say that they have a lot more in common with Playboy than Sports Illustrated ESPN the Magazine.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: gnu
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 02:20 PM

Don... "And surely the level of violence involved in Canadian ice hockey is legendary?"

Unfortunately yes. Also unfortunate is the level it was raised to when I decided I wouldn't watch it anymore. It became a TV freak show that was all about the brawls. Same thing happened in baseball. I'd say it was TVism and $ism.

Still, the rioting is unacceptable. I hope the penalties are harsh and well publicized with names and pics.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 02:25 PM

I was wondering if there is any connection between the riot and the recent election result.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 02:30 PM

I was wondering if there is any connection between the riot and the recent election result.

I don't live in Vancouver. But I lived most of my life in Canada. I am pretty sure the answer to that is "no." Hockey goons, on or off the ice, don't give a rats ass about politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 02:31 PM

Please congratulate me on my restraint for not having said "100." ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Charmion
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 03:25 PM

Last time I looked, they had yet to lay any charges against the Vancouver rioters. Even the ones with "I did it!" photos on Facebook.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 03:30 PM

JtS, I do congratulate you on your restraint. It must have been difficult not to mention it at all. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 03:50 PM

"Hockey goons, on or off the ice, don't give a rats ass about politics.

That makes sense - but were the rioters all Hockey goons, or were there other people, maybe pissed off for different reasons, joining in? It didn't look like the normal sports riot of hooligans from different camps ganging up on each other, more like people joining in because they saw a chance for a riot.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 04:03 PM

MacGrath, There have been several such riots in recent Canadian history. This is the first time I have heard that question posed.

Yes Ebbie. I am exceedingly proud of myself. :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 04:07 PM

Heres-a-list-of-significant-hockey-riots-in-Canada

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: gnu
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 04:09 PM

I just don't understand the connection McGrath. Surely if Canucks had been that pissed iff about the election it would have come sooner. Canucks who are pissed off are not known for their patience.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: gnu
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 04:11 PM

Hehehehee... Canucks many descended from Celtic and French stock so there is yer impatience factor.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: meself
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 12:38 AM

Nothing political about it, and nothing deep - just a bunch of young men (mostly) who had been drinking all day acting like idiots. Happens all the time, on a smaller scale - this time, they felt even less inhibited than usual because they knew that the cops wouldn't be able to get to them through the enormous crowds of, um, 'concerned citizens' and cell-phone paparozzi (sp.?).

Not much to do with sports either, other than that the rioters were Canuck fans, protestations to the contrary notwithstanding, and their team lost - that may have been something of a catalyst, but the riot was not a response to the loss, it was just the aggressive energy of young males escaping for a few hours from the usual social restraints.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 07:46 AM

That's a major element in all riots and insurrections.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 08:43 AM

Olddude I can imagine how you must have felt having that happen to your little girl. I remember at the time wishing that our games were more family orientated like in the US. Probably if the football grounds had been more comfortable and more restrictions on alcohol it might have made a difference instead of being herded into our opposing separate stands. Things have improved now because we have learnt from the US that it is much better to be able to watch a game that the whole family can watch. It is a shame that Manchester United player Wayne Rooney had to spoil it with bad language on the pitch not long ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: kendall
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 10:11 AM

If there was a riot in say, Boston, would we blame it on Canadians?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 10:45 AM

Maybe somebody has already done this in this long thread, but if not, I would like to point out that 'Americanism' is a word that's been around a long time, and it means 'being proud of America, or of being an American.'

Nowadays, we tend to frown on it, regarding it as a form a chauvinism. But sometimes, when I see the kindness or the courage of Americans around me, I'm proud to be American myself.

For example, when the tornado destroyed the hospital in Joplin, Missouri, the staff showed real heroism in saving the patients. (I bet that never made the British press.)

However that may be, Americanism is not what Mrzzy seemed to think, which is 'being a drunken thug.'

By the way, isn't it odd that the British use an Irish name (hooligan) for its home-grown louts?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 11:41 AM

Yes, it's me again.

And for all the anti-religious and the anti-catholics out there, that hospital is run by the Sisters of Mercy.
==================

As a sign of grit and resilience, St. John's one week later erected a tent field hospital — dubbed "Mercy M*A*S*H" by staff.

Sisters of Mercy officials have vowed to build a new hospital over the next 2½ years, though likely not on the site of the old. They promise a smaller, 150-bed facility before that.

All hospital employees are receiving their regular pay. Those who aren't needed at the field hospital are being placed at Mercy-affiliated hospitals or others as part of a "talent sharing" program.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 01:11 PM

I can never understand how we can be "proud" of anything we haven't done ourselves.

I can quite imagine how people can be "glad to be" some nationality, or even "proud of" some people with that shared nationality who have done something fine - but "proud to be" seems inappropriate somehow.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 03:17 PM

Americans are not the only people who step up in time of disaster. There have been plenty of recent examples of that in Japan and elsewhere. Maybe you need to talk about humanism.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: kendall
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 07:40 PM

McGrath, I'm with you on this.Whenever I see one of those bumper stickers, Proud to be American, I want to ask "Why"?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: gnu
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 05:17 AM

Kissing couple.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 08:35 AM

The relevant question for anyone shouldn't be whether they are proud to be Americans (or whatever) but whether other Americans can be proud of them being Americans (or whatever) - or might possibly be ashamed.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 09:55 AM

I'm proud of sharing the culture which did NOT say:

The Storm God is furious! Let's sacrifice a virgin, preferably from a minority group.

Nothing to do with me, mate, you can find me in the basement, if you can get there.

Let me cast your horoscope and get back to you.

It's fate. There's no point in struggling against fate.

There's only one thing I care about here: my own domain.

When ya get right down to it, can I be sure that this baby is actually mine?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 04:06 PM

Methinks McGrath has the truth of the matter.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 04:42 PM

I think it is the whole "American Exceptionalism" Thing that needs a little rethinking. Since when has humility stopped being a virtue? We need more John Wayne and less Donald Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: number 6
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 07:38 PM

"I don't feel we did wrong in taking this great country away from them. There were great numbers of people who needed new land, and the Indians were selfishly trying to keep it for themselves."

.... quote from John Wayne


biLL   ;_)

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 09:14 PM

That's still better than y'fiyad.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: number 6
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 11:31 PM

well ....y'fiyad .... you can reply "take the damn job and shove it" ... and go out and get another job.

but

for those down on the rez and hearing some dumb assed 2 bit phoney cowboy Hollywood actor making a quote like that .... I'd be pizzed right off ... that would be enough for me to want to start a rebellion.

all in all ... the world could do better without the likes of Wayne and Trump.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 11:57 PM

I was more referring to the persona of Wayne that made him a hero not the real person in interviews, As opposed to the the persona of Donald Trump which is an asshole in the same way that Donald Trump the person is an asshole.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: number 6
Date: 25 Jun 11 - 12:21 AM

""Out here, due process is a bullet."

.... John Wayne the actor, playing Col. Mike Kirby in the Green Berets

YIKES !!!

biLL   ... :-)