Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafemuddy

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings

Related threads:
Peter Kennedy First to Spot Beatles (19)
Obit: Peter Kennedy (1922-2006) (57)
Peter Kennedy Collection-moved to Halsway Manor (47)
Peter Kennedy archive collection (5)
Peter Kennedy event - 18 Nov Gloucester (3)
Review: Kennedy Collections (30)
efdss and kennedy collection (17)
Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy (268)
BBC radio obit - Peter Kennedy (2) (closed)


Richard from Liverpool 18 Jun 11 - 02:57 PM
GUEST 18 Jun 11 - 03:25 PM
Joe Offer 18 Jun 11 - 03:31 PM
Fred McCormick 18 Jun 11 - 03:42 PM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 18 Jun 11 - 04:28 PM
dick greenhaus 18 Jun 11 - 04:35 PM
The Sandman 18 Jun 11 - 04:43 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Jun 11 - 04:50 PM
Matthew Edwards 18 Jun 11 - 05:29 PM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 19 Jun 11 - 03:40 AM
The Sandman 19 Jun 11 - 04:41 AM
The Sandman 19 Jun 11 - 04:43 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jun 11 - 06:38 AM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 19 Jun 11 - 08:31 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jun 11 - 12:36 PM
Reinhard 19 Jun 11 - 01:21 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Jun 11 - 02:56 PM
meself 19 Jun 11 - 04:22 PM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 19 Jun 11 - 05:48 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Jun 11 - 02:04 AM
Martin Graebe 20 Jun 11 - 08:03 AM
The Sandman 20 Jun 11 - 02:10 PM
GUEST 20 Jun 11 - 03:03 PM
dick greenhaus 20 Jun 11 - 04:03 PM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 20 Jun 11 - 05:57 PM
Martin Graebe 20 Jun 11 - 06:32 PM
The Sandman 21 Jun 11 - 05:57 AM
The Sandman 21 Jun 11 - 06:10 AM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 21 Jun 11 - 06:11 AM
The Sandman 21 Jun 11 - 06:23 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jun 11 - 06:36 AM
The Sandman 21 Jun 11 - 07:36 AM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 21 Jun 11 - 07:39 AM
Martin Graebe 21 Jun 11 - 08:17 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 21 Jun 11 - 08:37 AM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 21 Jun 11 - 08:41 AM
Tradsinger 21 Jun 11 - 08:42 AM
The Sandman 21 Jun 11 - 08:50 AM
Spleen Cringe 21 Jun 11 - 12:02 PM
Spleen Cringe 21 Jun 11 - 12:05 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Jun 11 - 01:36 PM
dick greenhaus 21 Jun 11 - 01:44 PM
The Sandman 21 Jun 11 - 02:00 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Jun 11 - 03:03 PM
dick greenhaus 21 Jun 11 - 03:11 PM
greg stephens 21 Jun 11 - 03:51 PM
Vic Smith 21 Jun 11 - 03:56 PM
Vic Smith 21 Jun 11 - 04:26 PM
The Sandman 21 Jun 11 - 04:36 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 11 - 02:12 AM
The Sandman 22 Jun 11 - 06:10 AM
GUEST,Georgina Boyes 22 Jun 11 - 09:11 AM
The Sandman 22 Jun 11 - 09:23 AM
GUEST,Phil B 22 Jun 11 - 09:31 AM
Lighter 22 Jun 11 - 12:21 PM
The Sandman 22 Jun 11 - 12:51 PM
Vic Smith 22 Jun 11 - 01:02 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 11 - 01:15 PM
GUEST,Nebucanezzar Bumblechook 22 Jun 11 - 01:20 PM
Vic Smith 22 Jun 11 - 01:42 PM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 22 Jun 11 - 01:55 PM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 22 Jun 11 - 02:28 PM
MGM·Lion 22 Jun 11 - 02:48 PM
Lighter 22 Jun 11 - 03:48 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 11 - 03:49 PM
GUEST,Hootenanny 22 Jun 11 - 04:34 PM
The Sandman 22 Jun 11 - 04:46 PM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 22 Jun 11 - 05:06 PM
Vic Smith 22 Jun 11 - 05:28 PM
MGM·Lion 22 Jun 11 - 05:48 PM
GUEST,Mike Yates 23 Jun 11 - 03:32 AM
GUEST,Georgina Boyes 23 Jun 11 - 06:08 AM
The Sandman 23 Jun 11 - 06:14 AM
The Sandman 23 Jun 11 - 06:17 AM
The Sandman 23 Jun 11 - 06:59 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 11 - 07:25 AM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 23 Jun 11 - 08:40 AM
The Sandman 23 Jun 11 - 10:04 AM
dick greenhaus 23 Jun 11 - 10:06 AM
MGM·Lion 23 Jun 11 - 10:07 AM
Vic Smith 23 Jun 11 - 10:23 AM
The Sandman 23 Jun 11 - 11:19 AM
The Sandman 23 Jun 11 - 11:26 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 11 - 11:29 AM
Brian Peters 23 Jun 11 - 01:40 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 23 Jun 11 - 02:57 PM
The Sandman 23 Jun 11 - 03:20 PM
Dave MacKenzie 23 Jun 11 - 03:31 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 11 - 03:38 PM
The Sandman 23 Jun 11 - 03:39 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 23 Jun 11 - 05:11 PM
The Sandman 23 Jun 11 - 05:12 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 23 Jun 11 - 05:16 PM
The Sandman 23 Jun 11 - 05:18 PM
The Sandman 23 Jun 11 - 05:23 PM
The Sandman 23 Jun 11 - 05:40 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 23 Jun 11 - 05:42 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 23 Jun 11 - 05:44 PM
The Sandman 23 Jun 11 - 06:22 PM
The Sandman 23 Jun 11 - 06:23 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 23 Jun 11 - 06:30 PM
GUEST,Quango banjo 23 Jun 11 - 07:25 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 11 - 03:18 AM
GUEST,Nebucanezzar Bumblechook 24 Jun 11 - 03:59 AM
GUEST,Nebucanezzar Bumblechook 24 Jun 11 - 04:07 AM
GUEST,Nebucanezzar Bumblechook 24 Jun 11 - 05:37 AM
The Sandman 24 Jun 11 - 12:09 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 11 - 01:39 PM
MGM·Lion 24 Jun 11 - 05:25 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 11 - 11:06 AM
GUEST,Greg Gunner 19 Apr 12 - 02:33 PM
Desert Dancer 19 Apr 12 - 04:30 PM
GUEST,Forest Gate geezer 30 Oct 15 - 08:36 AM
GUEST,Another Forest Gate Geezer 30 Oct 15 - 10:06 AM
Joe Offer 16 Feb 16 - 11:13 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Feb 16 - 04:55 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Feb 16 - 05:18 AM
GUEST,Henry Piper of Ottery. 17 Feb 16 - 05:54 AM
Desert Dancer 08 Jun 16 - 10:15 AM
Desert Dancer 08 Jun 16 - 10:26 AM
Joe Offer 19 Mar 18 - 02:07 AM
The Sandman 19 Mar 18 - 04:05 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Mar 18 - 05:00 AM
Joe Offer 20 Mar 18 - 11:46 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Mar 18 - 12:04 PM
Vic Smith 20 Mar 18 - 02:18 PM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 20 Mar 18 - 05:28 PM
Hagman 20 Mar 18 - 07:01 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 18 - 04:33 AM
Hagman 21 Mar 18 - 06:46 AM
Vic Smith 21 Mar 18 - 07:05 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 18 - 07:29 AM
The Sandman 21 Mar 18 - 02:30 PM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:









Subject: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Richard from Liverpool
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 02:57 PM

Hello

I'm very keen to listen to some of the late Peter Kennedy's "folktrax" recordings as catalogued at the now historic website http://www.folktrax-archive.org/. There have been discussions here on mudcat in the past about getting hold of these recordings, but these are all (as far as I can see) a few years old, so I'm interested to know what the current state of play is.

1) Is there any way of purchasing the recordings now? (I'm guessing that the answer is 'no', but I guess it's worth asking anyway)

2) Where can one find copies of the recordings to listen to? e.g. is there a set at the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library? Are they at the British Library?

Thanks to anyone who can help!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 03:25 PM

Topic records have all the Peter Kennedy recordings and are tidying them up and will re-issue them as a second "Voice of the People" set sooner rather than later.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 03:31 PM

Now, that's wonderful news!

-Joe-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 03:42 PM

Richard. We should have a word about this at the next Lion session. In the meantime, I have a large number of the Folktrax cassettes. They were given to me, I should point out, I didn't buy them. The sound quality varies from fairly tolerable to absolutely atrocious, and the programming and selection can make listening feel at times a bit like being tortured by the CIA.

On top of that, as previous threads discuss, a large cloud of doubt hangs over the question of the legality of these publications in terms of copyright and royalty payments. In many cases, Kennedy appears not to have told many of the performers or their descendants, and in at least one case, used the recordings of another collector without asking permission.

Having said that, Reg Hall has been working on a large CD publication of material from the Kennedy collection for Topic records. From what I can gather, it is due for publication this autumn and will be in name and fact a second Voice of the People.

I also know that Reg has delved into the legal aspects of this collection and he would be the last person to publish anything that wasn't legit. Plus, the series will be professionally remastered and will doubtless feature some fabulous performances.

In the meantime, if you want to listen to recordings of field singers, and thank God somebody does, both the libraries you mention have extensive holdings and both have on-line catalogues.

The British Library holdings actually come under the World and traditional music
section of the National Sound Archive.

And of course don't forget the wonderful Tobar an Dualchais - kist of riches - archive at the School of Scottish Studies website.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 04:28 PM

Dick from Camsco will probably pop here soon to say that he has some of the recordings available for sale.
You can hear at least some (perhaps all) of the recordings at the VWML.
Reg is not the only person involved in the second VotP series. Shirley Collins, Rod Stradling and Steve Roud are also involved. They won't be coming out as a set of 20 CDs like VotP1. They will be split into themes, sometimes double, sometimes triples, sometimes solos. I think the Shirley selection will be coming out first - southern English singers including Gypsy singers.
Derek Schofield


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 04:35 PM

CAMSCO has re-released (under license) : As I Roved Out
Songs of Lovers--False and True
The Bald Headed End of the Broom
Songs of the Trades
Songs of Country Life
Songs of Good Company
Songs of Diversion
Shanties of the Seven Seas
Suffolk & Essex Singers
Bob Roberts
Harps & Hornpipes
The Bramble Briar
Isabel Sutherland
What a Voice : Jeannie Robertson
Jug of Punch
Charlie Wills
Songs From the Midlands
Instrumental Dance Music
Crawling Into Work
Unto Briggs Fair
Shanties and Sea Songs V.1
Shanties and Sea Songs v2. Carpenter Coll.
Songs of Comment--Robert Cinnamond
Fly Up, My Cock -Robert Cinnamond
The Rambling Youth -- Robert Cinnamond
The May Morning Dew
Brigid Tunney
Paddy Tunney
The Rosin Box
The Muckle Ballads
Tales From a Traveller
Ballads & Songs From Orkney
Maggie Maggie May
English Folksongs Miss Pringle Never Taught Us
Diddle Daddle
Lucy Stewart
Lower The Funnel
Wild Rover No More
Slieve Gallon Brae
A-Mining We Will Go
Ballads of Storm and Shipwreck
The Fighting Sailor
The Broken Token
The Boatie Rows
The Deadly Wars
Napoleonic Songs
The White Cockade
Frank Warner & Family
Black is the Colour : Karpeles Coll. V.1
Cumberland Gap: Karpeles v.2
Mountain Ballads
Yankee John Galusha
Lena Bourne Fish
The Hicks Family & Friends
Tink "Tillet
Rebecca King Jones/ Lee Monroe Presnell
Bolankin
John Hardy
I'm Going Back to North Carolina
I've been told byTopic that when they get around to issuing their "best of"set, I'll be able to release the "rest of" the collection.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 04:43 PM

I hope that is not the Bald Headed end of the Broom, that Kennedy illegally recorded from a Folk on 2 broadcast, of The Dunmow Flitch by Dick and Sue Miles. he was selling this bootleg as a cassette, without the permission of the recording artist concerned or recording company


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 04:50 PM

I bet you really hope it is, Dick. ;-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 05:29 PM

For what its worth the record The Bald-Headed End of the Broom comes from a recording of Martha Gillen, County Antrim in 1954 by Seamus Ennis.

Thanks to Derek for the information about the format of the forthcoming Topic VOTP2; I also heard that Musical Traditions will issue some of the recordings not chosen by Topic, but I gather other recordings from the Kennedy archives may be issued by other labels under licence from Topic. For example I've just been listening to a wonderful 3CD issue of the great Donegal fiddler Neillidh Boyle from Cairdeas na bhFidiléirí which includes some tracks recorded by Peter Kennedy. So we are in for some real treats when all these recordings become available with high quality sound engineering, and proper notes.

Matthew


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 03:40 AM

high quality sound engineering, and proper notes.

I've still got four or five Seamus Ennis FolkTrax tapes featuring all manner of pipe tunes, songs, stories (Sean Aerach - the ultimate odd-couple road-trip involving a hilarious dispute with St Peter over the heart of a lamb...), with some fiddle / whistle as well. As far as Folk Product goes they were something else - duplicated on low-grade unbranded cassette tapes with near-illegible photocopied covers with minimal info (at best) all served up in pastel pinks and blues. I just wish I'd bought more of them when I had the chance really - I've had them since around 1984 and one of these days might even get round to doing a digital transfer. Hoary artefacts of genuine Folkloric significance which are worth cherishing I would have thought, along with all the contentions and controversies that went with them...

I must admit (as I often do) I'm not a huge fan of VOTP (even though I own most of it), feeling that such material deserves open access on-line with the emphasis being on the singers themselves (as in the old Topic collections), rather than further merry mix-ups of song taxonomy.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 04:41 AM

I got my version of BALD HEADED END OF THE BROOM, from Peter Kennedys book which i bought.
I along with Sue Miles and Jez Lowe was legally and morally entitled to make our own arrangement, Kennedy was not legally or morally entitled to sell our arrangement, from an illegal bootleg he made of a bbc 2 radio broadcast on folk on two.
according to Kennedys book HE QUOTES TWO RECORDED VERSIONS, the one mentioned which was in fact by seamus ennis AND s o boyle,AND A VERSION FROM NORTH CAROLINA recorded from lee monroe presnell, folk legacy fsa 23
here is our recorded version,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmqpgT0ClK4


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 04:43 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmqpgT0ClK4 that was it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 06:38 AM

"and will re-issue them as a second....."
Only some of the recordings I understand, leaving a large number still unheard.
The first major release of these recordings was via the Caedmon 'Folk Songs of Britain' series, later re-issued by Topic. As valuable as these were, most of the songs were edited, some of them drastically with verses being removed all over the place.   
I understand the 'Voice of the People' series was orginally planned as a re-issuing of FSoB unedited, which eventually became something else. Perhaps it is time to re-issue the original set in all its magnificence.
I wonder also what happened to that dreadful series issued by Kennedy where he added amaturish accompaniments, echo, choruses,speeding up and slowing down..... to the original field recording (imagine fiddle virtuoso John Doherty singing to a dubbed-on bad fiddle accompaniment) sort of like painting beard and moustache on the Mona Lisa!!
Considering the highly-questionable (to say the least) legality of how this treasure trove was collected and what has happened to it over the last half century +, and the fact that they were originally paid for with BBC licence-payers money, wouldn't the moral thing be to make them freely available on the web - just a thought!!
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 08:31 AM

Three of the Caedmon albums were re-released by Rounder in the Alan Lomax series - Songs of Seduction and the 2 Child Ballad volumes. With extra tracks, but still with the annoying missing verses feature. Those CDs are probably not even available now, but perhaps can be downloaded. It's a pity the other 7 volumes were not reissued, but I understand that Peter Kennedy was the problem! He was editing them.
Derek


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 12:36 PM

Thanks Derek,
Had no idea even those three had been re-issued - do you know if they were full versions?
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Reinhard
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 01:21 PM

Mustrad has a tracklist and review of Rounder's Child ballad reissues


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 02:56 PM

Thanks Reinhard - still no full versions - pity
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: meself
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 04:22 PM

(Fine job, Dick!)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 05:48 PM

Jim
This page of the Rounder website gives the listings for Child 2 and Seduction, but no Child 1, and .. they are only for downloads. So no detailed booklet that was in the CD versions.
http://www.rounder.com/artists/alan-lomax-collection/page/6
Derek


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 02:04 AM

Thanks Derek,
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Martin Graebe
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 08:03 AM

Dick

Could we knock on the head the idea that PK sold your version of 'Bald headed end of the broom commercially'? What was listed on his website (as can be seen from the archived version at folktrax-archive.org)is one of his personal recordings off air, which was available to visitors to his library for private study. This tape will, I assume, be among those which went to the Kennedy-Grant Library at Halsway Manor and will, likewise, be available for study purposes there - but it will not be possible to copy it. If you are unhappy with this you should contact them. But you may feel flattered that your work is available for future students in this way.

Martin


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 02:10 PM

Martin, that is not good enough,Peter illegally and without my permission did a bootleg recording of a Folk on TWO Broadcast, he could have contacted either Joe Stead or I and asked for a complimentary record, as far as I am concerned I would have sent him one., or he could have even bought a copy.
but, no, he chose to without permission bootleg his own version, it may now be available for private study, big deal, it is available now courtesy of myself for everyone to study on you tube.
however my memory which is still pretty good, but not infallible tells me that particular folk cassette, was not always just for private study,if it was why did he not contact me at the time and ask me.
Martin there exists in this world such a thing as good manners and courtesy, so no, we cannot knock the fact that he attempted to sell a track commercially,if he had contacted me and said could I have or even buy a copy for private study,I would have given him one for free.
and here for the rest of the world it is for free, so f### People that underhandedly bootlegs other peoples recordings and dont have a modicum of decency and good manners.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmqpgT0ClK4


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 03:03 PM

The legalities or not of Kennedy's collection is water under the bridge. He made money out of it. Bear in mind this is "Voice of the people".
Now others are making money out of it by re-issuing parts of the collections. The very concept that parts should be retained and issued for private study is elitist in the extreme. It has nothing to do with folk music. It is one of the reasons why our popular music of today owes more to US folk culture than it does to English or British.
I agree with Jim Carroll. Put them all up on the web - warts and all.
Many years ago a group was set up in Gloucester to provide an archive where Peter Kennedy could leave all his collection. This never happened of course and some people who were involved were worried that the archive might have been sold to an American University.
What a shame they were not! By most US university's record we would now be looking at and downloading them - for FREE.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 04:03 PM

Folks here seem to have a vastly inflated vision of the amount of money that's involved with the sale of traditional folk music. Kennedy's collection is not widely available because there's virtually no market for it. People like CAMSCO are trying to keep it available simply because they think it should be available, NOT because there's any signiicant money to be made.And while it's nice to have free downloads, it takes money(taxes or grants) to set up and maintain these archives.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 05:57 PM

Martin and Dick (GSS) disagree on the cassette business.
Looking at the Folktrax archive, this is the entry:

BALD HEADED END OF THE BROOM, THE - "O love it is a funny thing - it affects both young and old" - ROUD#2129 - MERCHANT: Gargling Songster, Chicago, c1885 titled "Lines of Love" - RANDOLPH 1946 - KENNEDY FSBI 1975 p449 Martha Gillen 1954 -- Martha GILLEN, rec by Seamus Ennis, Co Antrim, 1954: RPL 21839/ FTX-019 & FTX-434 - Dick & Sue Miles Radio Folk on Two 1984 CASS 0453 --- Beach Mt NC: FOLK LEGACY FSA-23

If you look at this on the website, FTX19 and FTX434 are hyperlinked to Folktrax cassettes that Kennedy sold. Neither of them contains Dick's recording - they contain the Martha Gillen recording. CASS 0453 is not hyper-linked, suggesting to me that it was - as Martin states - a private recording that he made from the radio and kept as such in his archive. We've all done it. This all suggests that it was not sold. Now, of course, the recording might have been put on a Folktrax commercial cassette at some stage between 1984 and a while prior to Kennedy's death. I don't know. But that's not what the website suggests.

I'm no apologist for Kennedy. I knew him, we fell out, talked to each other again and fell out again. He did some dubious things with recordings, but perhaps not on this occasion.

Derek


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Martin Graebe
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 06:32 PM

Your analysis is correct, Jim. PK was doing nothing (in this instance) that any of us would not have done.

m


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 05:57 AM

sorry, That wont do, Kennedy should have asked first, so Martin you would go around bootlegging other peoples work, without asking them, Martin how would you like it if I bootlegged a copy of your recording, from a folk on two broadcast, or any other broadcast and put it out on a different label, if Kennedys motives were purely altruistic, why not contact me or the recording company, what you are saying does not ring true.
This is the correct way to do it, MORALLY AND LEGALLY, C


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 06:10 AM

sorry, That wont do,
Kennedy should have asked first, so Martin you would go around bootlegging other peoples work, without asking them, Martin how would you like it if I bootlegged a copy of your recording, from a folk on two broadcast, or any other broadcast and put it out on a different label,FOR WHATEVER PURPOSES.
if Kennedys motives were purely altruistic, why not contact me or the recording company, what you are saying does not ring true, IN FACT it is codswallop.
This is the correct way to do it,http://www.wtv-zone.com/phyrst/audio/nfld/08/cabinboy.htm
MORALLY AND LEGALLY, Contact the person first and ask, it is unethical to bootleg other peoples recordings from RADIO 2 or any other broadcast,and use them for private study or commercial purposes without asking first.
KENNETH PEACOCK asked me and explained what it was for and I agreed, that is what Peter Kennedy should have done, but no, he behaved in an underhand and devious manner, which confirms my opinion that his motives were not purely altruistic.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 06:11 AM

Jim? who's Jim?
Dick - there is no evidence that Kennedy SOLD your recording on a "commercial" cassette. Have you never recorded something from the radio or videoed a TV programme? It appears that that is what Kennedy did here.
Derek aka Jim?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 06:23 AM

NO,
TO Paraphrase Mandy Rice Davies, Kennedys Present website would say that.
it is illegal and immoral to bootleg anybodys recordings without asking their permission, I have put that track up on youtube, that was my decision, that gives me the right to remove it at any time.
if Kennedy wanted to let people hear it for private study, why bootleg it why not contact me,he could have bought the lp, after all i bought his book, but if he had offered to buy one,I would have sent him one for free, I have always dealt honestly with people I expect to be treated that way in return.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 06:36 AM

Can I point out what is happening in Ireland at the present time.
I regularly receive notification from the Irish Traditional Music Archive telling me that yet another large chunk of their holdings is freely available to me via their web-sit.
Hopefully, by the end of the year, the same will happen here in County Clare with our local archive Oidreach an Chláir (OAC).
I was delighted to learn that the School of Scottish Studies was making their wonderful collection available to all.
The age of technology is here - there is no excuse for hanging on to the music and songs that we only have due to the unstinting generosity of people like Sam Larner, Harry Cox and Walter Pardon - if it belongs to anybody, it belongs to them - or as Walter once said "They're not my songs, they're everybody's".
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 07:36 AM

Exactly,Jim, and Iam sure you would agree with me that Kennedy should have asked my permission first out of courtesy.
many years ago when I guested at Chelmsford folk club regularly, there was a guy who used to record the evening,I had no problem with that because he asked first, and I have a couple of recordings which are now of great sentimental valueto me.
Peter Kennedy seemed to have an attitude problem, which was this that anything he collected he owned.
Those people who defend illegal bootlegging,that is recording without permission of the performer including Derek Schofield Remind me of the traveller led astray to the path of moral questionabilty by the false light of the will of the wisps, corpse candles or jack a lanterns.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 07:39 AM

Regarding Jim's posting, both the Tobar an Dualchais project (School of Scottish Studies and much more) and the ITMA projects have been heavily funded.
here, the BL has put lots of recordings online, although they don't seem to publicise this as much. As they now have most of the major field recording collections, the iniative has been left to them.
Generally, in England, the projects that have been funded have been to get manuscript collections online - Take 6, Baring Gould, and now the Full English.
Derek


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Martin Graebe
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 08:17 AM

Sorry, Derek - I did, of course, mean you

And, Dick, I do see a difference between bootlegging and recording a programme off-air for later listening - and if you have never done it I would be surprised at your virtue relative to the rest of people I know.

m


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 08:37 AM

The technology exists to have all of these archives on-line and openly available to anyone who wants to listen. Free? In an ideal world maybe, but a nomimal cost per track would make the whole venture so much more viable. Then you could cross-reference the entire collection with singer, song-type, Child & Roud numbers inclusive of notes, transciptions, biographies, photographs etc. etc. and make it so much more useful than yet another series of lavishly packaged compilation CDs in which, yet again, the singers must take a back-seat to their songs & celebrity compilers.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 08:41 AM

I want to make it clear that no-where have I defended illegal bootlegging (according to my dictionary bookleg means "illicitly sold"). Please don't slur my character with claims of what I haven't said.
Derek


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Tradsinger
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 08:42 AM

Leaving aside the ethical issues for a moment, Peter's recordings represent a huge and unique snapshot of British and Irish folk culture on tape and video. No-one can be under the illusion that the BBC would have preserved that material or made it available.

Peter told me that Folktrax grew out of study tapes that he produced for students at Dartingon, and he always saw them as study tapes, not polished commercial products. whilst one can argue the pros and cons of that policy, he did not intend them to be comparable with Veteran, Topic, etc. Most of the recordings in his Folktrax catalogue simply did not sell.

On the point of making material available through the internet - it's a nice idea but takes a lot of work. The British Library has the resouces and has put some recordings on line, but, for example, I have made many hours of sound and video recordings of source singers that I have recorded. The 'best' of the sound recordings have been made available through Musical Traditions, VOTP and Properjob
Publications, but that still leaves a large body of my work 'unpublished'. Ideally I would like to put it all up on the internet but
a) it would take time and effort to get all the permissions from the performers or descendants of the performers,
b) It would take me many hours of work
c) I can't see there being any funding for it.

These are the factors holding me back.

Tradsinger

Tradsinger


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 08:50 AM

I have never done it.
furthermore there is a difference between recording it for oneself and putting it up on folktrax[another label] without permission for whatever reason be it commercial or for others to study privately, permission has to ber asked first that is the Law, it is illegal and immoral if you cannot see that you are either extremely thickor immoral
the reasons why I have never done it are ,1. i cant be arsed, 2. I would rather buy a recording from an artist at a gig, because as a gigging artist Iknow how important record sales are.
Martin, its simple, do unto others as you would have others do unto you.
Kennedy, bootlegged a recording of mine without my permission, fact, he didnt just keep it in his home he advertised it on his folktrax catalogue, making it available to the public without my permission, without my permission WITHOUT MY PERMISSION, do you understand what I am saying, is that clear.
is it ok Martin for me without your permission to do that to you[ that is put a track up on another label and into the public domain and me giving permission as to who should listen to it.,
yes, I know private study:that involves the public getting permission from Kennedy to listen to it ]
how dare Kennedy have the cheek to grant permission for anyone to listen to my arrangement, without having asked me first.
kennedy clearly thought he owned the song.he never even collected it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 12:02 PM

Derek wrote: The BL has put lots of recordings online, although they don't seem to publicise this as much. As they now have most of the major field recording collections, the iniative has been left to them.

You're right about them not publicising it - this is the first I've heard of it.

A bit of googling and flitting round the BL site reveals this:

Traditional Music in England Main Page

And this:

Traditional Music in England - Collections

Not had time to poke around the site yet. The blurb on the main page says that some of the recordings can be listened to by any memeber of the public but others are only available to people accessing them via a higher or further education institute. Whilst it's great that they are there at all, what's all that about, I wonder?

Anyway, off to explore. I may be some time...

Nigel

PS - it might be good if there was a list of all the different online traditional music archives. I wonder where would be a good place for that to live - or whether in fact one already exists? Folkepedia perhaps?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 12:05 PM

Wow. Listening to Keith Summers' recordings of Scan Tester even as I type. This might annoy my colleagues...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 01:36 PM

"No-one can be under the illusion that the BBC would have preserved that material or made it available."
This is simply not true.
Marie Slocum indexed and annotated the collection, the BCC broadcast some of it on 'As I Roved Out' and The Vaughan Williams Memorial Library have always held a complete set of the recordings.
Many of the problems of making the collection more widely available have arose from Peter's claim that he owned it and his demands for payment - he even claimed copyright on much of the material and sent demands of payment for such - managed to scupper plans of a 10 part set of themed books because the editor wished to use some of the texts.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 01:44 PM

I'm baffled. Granted that the late Mr. Kennedy did not always disport himself in a manner deemed admirable by many (nor did either Lomax nor
Moses Asch for that matter), what wou'd y'all like to see done with the collection?
Making them available for free download dosn't seem to be a realistic approach. Somebody (presumably Topic) owns the rights to the recordings, and is entitled to a fee whenever someone else (like CAMSCO) releases some of the material. And I see no benefit to anyone by not having it available.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 02:00 PM

Lomax, Stalin, Hitler, Moses Asch, Mussolini,Mao Tse Tung, DeValera, are not relevant to this discussion.
why is not making them available for free download unrealistic,Topic was founded for altruistic purposes,what went wrong?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 03:03 PM

Dick G.
The collection was paid for by BBC licenceholders and British taxpayers; whoever "owns the rights" to it now does so because of the way it was acquired by Kennedy.
I would be interested to learn why returning the collection to its rightful owners is "unrealistic" - it's working for Ireland an Scotland.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 03:11 PM

It's always easier to ask someone else to be altruistic.Meanwhile, I'm doing my bit towards making the music available. It's certainly not a noticeable profit-making enterprise.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 03:51 PM

I have to admit to the dreadful crime of recording songs off radio folk programmes onto a cassette. The Good Soldier thinks this is a crime; I don't. I bet most of us have done the same. And have not the slightest objection to the practise. I am absolutely delighted that Peter Kennedy recorded a number of my own radio prorammes and catalogued them. Otherwise they would have been lost, the BBC was not specially motivated when it came to archiving their own folk recordings!
Peter Kennedy may or not have been guilty of some dubious practises. Putting his cassette recorder in front of the speaker for Folk on 2 wasn't one of them.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Vic Smith
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 03:56 PM

I'll tell a Peter Kennedy story.... it's largely against myself and the only excuse that I can give is that I was quite young at the time.

In the early 1970s there was a folk festival held at Newton Abbott race course and Tina and I were booked to sing there. We were singing in a concert in the big hall beneath the grandstand. One of the songs that we sang was 'Billy Taylor'. Peter Kennedy was in the hall with a stall selling his Folktrax tapes. After the concert, he approached me and the conversation went something like this:-
PK - Where did you learn that version of Billy Taylor?
VS - Oh, we were up in Fetterangus in Aberdeenshire staying with Cameron and Jane Turriff and we learned it from them.
PK - Well, that's all right then.....it's not one of mine.


I didn't understand what he meant straight away but then the implication of what he meant by the word "mine" hit me and I immediately lost my temper and bawled at him.
VS - What f**king difference would it have made if it had been one of 'yours'. It's a traditional song.

The whole place went into a hush. Peter ran out of the hall and I was left with everyone looking at me and feeling very foolish indeed.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Vic Smith
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 04:26 PM

Some way above this it says:-
Reg is not the only person involved in the second VotP series. Shirley Collins, Rod Stradling and Steve Roud are also involved. They won't be coming out as a set of 20 CDs like VotP1. They will be split into themes, sometimes double, sometimes triples, sometimes solos. I think the Shirley selection will be coming out first - southern English singers including Gypsy singers.
Derek Schofield


I think I can add to what Derek has said that as well as a compilation of southern English gypsy singers, Shirley has been preparing another of other singers from the south and as well as the Kennedy recordings, Shirley has asked for some of Bob Copper's collected items to be included. She has been preparing a third one of the great Queen Caroline Hughes including a few tracks by other members of her family.

Shirley has also been devising another of her multimedia shows based on these recordings. The format of this show - called You Never Heard So Sweet - will be the same as the previous ones with Shirley introducing the songs and telling some of the stories with the help of the actor, Pip Barnes, with Tina providing the visuals and me playing in the recordings.

The show will be seen at the following festivals:-
* Stowmarket Traditional Music Day - 3rd September
* Lewes Folk Festival - 8th October

There is talk of the show being presented in London as a launch party for the 3 CD set that Shirley has prepared and I believe that she is negotiating with other summer festivals that have expressed an interest in the show.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 04:36 PM

Greg, It is about respect, it is about courtesy and manners it is called asking the permission of the artist, if you cant understand that, you should not be on the folk scene.,
GREG I am not interested in your recordings,
on that particular recording of a track from that LP the one Kennedy IlLEGALLY COPIED, it stated clearly,...copyright exists, any unauthorised broadcasting public performance, copying or re recording of such records in any manner whatsoever will constitute an infringement of such copyright, application for public perfomance should be adressed to PPL GANTON HOUSE 14 TO22 GANTON STREETLondonW1. you may or may not approve of PPL OR this law protecting recording artists, but if you or Kennedy or anyone else do this you are breaking the law.
if you think that recording something illegally and putting it up on FOLKTRAX is morally ok, and not a dubious practice, you go right down in my estimation, do you really believe we should not have a law protecting commercial recordings from being copied.
Kennedy did something dubious, illegal and immoral and unnecessary all he had to was ask me politely, one phone call, and I would have happily given him an lp


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 02:12 AM

"It's always easier to ask someone else to be altruistic."
Is it altruistic to ask somebody to return something that has been dishonestly taken from them in the first place?
I am suggestion that the recordings be made freely available; I am not suggesting that the people who now claim 'ownership' pay for making them available; I have little doubt that a national appeal would go some way to raising the necessary funding for putting them up on the web, given the goodwill of the present 'owners'.
In the past Kennedy claimed these recordings as his own and created a minefield of threats of legal action to prevent access to them other than by buying them.
I don't take Vic's story to be against himself; it is typical of the barrier Kennedy created to protect his 'ownership'. That barrier is no longer there and modern technology has made it possible to distribute the material with relative ease.
The collection was the joint effort of Kennedy, Sean O'Boyle, Seamus Ennis, Bob Copper, Phillip Donnellan, (all commissioned by the BBC) Patrick Shouldham-Shaw, Cyril Tawney, and others; if anybody has responsibility for what happens to it, it is jointly that of the BBC and EFDSS, the project, inspired largely by Alan Lomax, was a joint one taken on by these two organisations.
As the former seems to have lost interest in it long ago, the responsibly for it now rests with The Society.
Hopefully, some day someone will write an account of the project and burst the mystical bubble that surrounds 'the Peter Kennedy collection', making these threads unnecessary.
A couple of personal experiences which sum up for me the bad feeling that has been generated by this collection.
In the eighties I was in a music session with one of the collectors, long acknowledged as a major contributor to the work, and taking the opportunity to gather some information, I naively said "I believe you worked on the BBC project with Peter Kennedy.
He immediately and extremely angrily spat out the reply; "That man is a thief", and stormed over to the other side of the bar.
A friend of mine, now dead, once sent a very important selection of songs he had recorded from a Traveller to Kennedy for his comments. The singer having previously died of malnutrition in a derelict house in Ireland, any proceeds from the use of these recordings had been donated by the collector towards the setting up of a school for Traveller children.
The recordings immediately appeared in the Folktrax catalogue, and despite numerous appeals down the years for them to be withdrawn or for a donation to the school, they remained there up to Kennedy's death; the Travellers' school, of course, never saw a penny, and later the project was abandoned due to lack of funding.
Not an image one would wish to be attached to one of the most important collections of folk songs ever made in these islands.   
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 06:10 AM

well said Jim.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Georgina Boyes
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 09:11 AM

In another Peter Kennedy thread, it was suggested that if he should have been the head of a University department. This shouldn't go unchallenged.

Folklore collection is about more than making recordings. Respect for the contributor, the ethical issues surrounding the way individuals are treated and their material used are far more significant than accumulating material. And also form key aspects of courses on Fieldwork in Folklore.

What example would Peter Kennedy's practice and ethics have provided to any students he taught fieldwork?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 09:23 AM

Respect for the contributor, the ethical issues surrounding the way individuals are treated and their material used are far more significant than accumulating material."
   That was my whole point about the way he treated me., Anyone who cant be bothered to make a phone call to ask permission to use a recording[ as is demanded by law],is showing a lack of respect and courtesy, and is behaving in a devious manner,which would arouse the suspicions of even someone as Naive as myself, and cause me to suspect that they were bootlegging for financial gain.
my names not green, neither is it greenhorn.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Phil B
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 09:31 AM

Unable to answer for Peters Folktrax activities one way or another but do recall playing a very early gig with Colin Wilson at the Cider Press and forgetting my capo. Peter lent me one from the small music shop he had there and then told me to keep it at the end of the night. A generous gesture.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 12:21 PM

It should be noted - just as fact and in defense of nobody - that much of Kennedy's collecting, like that of even more famous collectors like Sharp and the Lomaxes, took place at a time when the ethics of collecting had not been much debated. Frank Proffitt apparently never got a dime from the Kingston Trio's zillion-dollar version of "Tom Dooley" in the 1950s, and few professional folklorists were terribly bothered. I believe that that case was something of a catalyst in galvanizing a higher level of professionalism among folklorists. In countless other cases, collectors made money (usually rather little) and source singers got nothing except thanks and a beer.

A bare handful of people may have done it, but the idea that collecting folk music was a good way to get rich is fantasy.

The legalistic sense of the era was that the songs, when found, were in the public domain, the informants didn't own them, and the collector's efforts in finding, researching, editing, and publishing was entirely value added, with nothing legally or ethically due the original singer.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 12:51 PM

Peter Kennedy once made me a cup of tea and gave me half a peach with some yogurt.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Vic Smith
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 01:02 PM

Lighter wrote:-
"Frank Proffitt apparently never got a dime from the Kingston Trio's zillion-dollar version of "Tom Dooley" in the 1950s, and few professional folklorists were terribly bothered.


I don't believe this to be true. I work with Jeff Warner on his multi-media show From The Mountains To The Sea and in the show Jeff tells the story of his parents, Frank and Anne collecting songs from Frank Proffitt. Here is a quotation from the script (as presented by Jeff but written by him jointly with his brother, Gerret :-

Frank Proffitt sang the Warner's three songs that first afternoon on the Beech: Dan Do, Moonshine and Tom Dooley. Later on, in '41, when the Warners stayed with Frank and his wife Bessie for several days, they had a portable recording machine made for them by Philco Electronics. There, at the house Frank built when he married Rena Hicks, the Warners recorded Tom Dooley and the beginnings of a 100 song repertoire from Proffitt's mountain past. Frank Warner was moved by the song Tom Dooley. He took it back to New York where he sang it for collector Alan Lomax, who included the song in his 1947 book Folk Song USA. The book and the song made its way around America, and in 1958, was recorded by a west coast singing group, the Kingston Trio, who sold 6 million copies of the song and, in doing so, helped to generate the folk song revival, which continues on a half-century later.
The story of the Dooley recording is long—and for another time—but Lomax' s publisher and the Kingston Trio's Capitol Records settled a suit out of court in 1962, and from that settlement, Frank Proffitt made enough to build a new house there in Watauga County.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 01:15 PM

".....took place at a time when the ethics of collecting had not been much debated.
Kennedy was still selling BBC material and demanding copyright on the use of traditinal song which he claimed were his right up to his death a couple of years ago.
One of his stunts was to get old singers to sign the rights of not only the songs they gave Kennedy, but "anything they might remember in the future" - not worth the paper it was written on but country singers were not to know that.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Nebucanezzar Bumblechook
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 01:20 PM

I know that one track indisputablely recorded by Alan Lomax, and in the fashion of the times exchanged with Peter Kennedy, is despite polite protests still planned for inclusion in the new releases, and asserted to be co-recorded by Kennedy while he was hundreds of miles away.
And I have in recent years seen offered for sale on the Internet several CDs worth of other Lomax recordings - including ones I recently learned Lomax had in turn copied from BBC recordings [not made by Kennedy].
This discussion has been, fair enough, dominated by one recording, but as other discussions confirm he was at it all the time. He did great things, sure. That's no excuse.
NB


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Vic Smith
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 01:42 PM

I know that it's all very old hat now but it might be worth considering aspects of the list that Dick Greenhaus gives above.
He lists albums that CAMSCO has re-released (under license) and presumably he means licensed from Peter Kennedy and Folktrax. The list includes:-

Yankee John Galusha
Lena Bourne Fish
The Hicks Family & Friends
Tink "Tillet


Hmm, working on the Jeff Warner show mentioned in my previous posting, these names seem very familiar as singers included in the show.
Let's have a look at the Folktrax catalogue which is still on the web at http://folktrax-archive.org/index.htm and see what it says about these albums:-

GALUSHA, "Yankee" John - N.Y., USA\ Unaccomp singer\ 1940-1 - (1859-1950) Lumberjack & game-warden - was born at Thurman, Warren County, N.Y. His father, a farmer, fought in the War of 1812 and died in 1892. John became a lumberjack at the age of 16 and later as a fire-warden, game and fishing guide and forest-ranger. In this later capacity, he met the President and also the State Governor, He and his wife, Lizzie, lived at Minerva for over 60 years until she died in 1949, a year before John's death at the age of 91 -- rec by Frank & Anne Warner: Warren Co FTX-921 - APPLESEED APR-CD-1035 2000: "Days of Forty Nine"/ "Springfield Mountain"/ "Lass of Glenshee"/ "Irish 69th"/ "The Cumberland & the Merrimac"

FISH, Lena Bourne - Vt., USA & NH, USA\ Unaccomp singer\ 1940-1- Her father was a lumberman in Vermont (1873-1945). Mrs. Fish was born and brought up in Black Brook, N.Y., daughter of Stratton Bourne and Cynthia Abel Bourne. Her father was a native of Vermont, a lumber salesman in the Adirondacks, supplying wood for the charcoal used in the ironstone mines. Since she did not like teaching, she became a housekeeper to a lady in Temple, New Hampshire, and eventually married her son, John Fish, who died in 1918. Then she moved with her 7 children to East Jaffrey, New Hampshire. and it was there that she recorded her large collection for the Warners in 1940, amounting to nearly a hundred songs. She hads already recorded for Helen Hartness Flanders, who taped half her collection and included 13 of her ballads in her book, "Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung In New England". #12, 13 and 33, taken from the Warner's collection, were published in Alan Lomax's Folk Songs Of North America - It was her particular version of Whisky In The Jar (#13) that became popular and is still the version most often sung by contemporary performers in the UK -- rec by Frank & Anne Warner, East Jaffray, New Hampshire 1941: FTX-922 - APPLESEED APR-CD-1035 2000: "Gilgarrah Mountain"/ "Jolly Roving Tar"/ "Castle by the sea"

HICKS, Linzy & Winser - N C, USA\ singer/ dulcimer\ 1951 -- rec by Frank & Anne Warner, Beech Mountain: 927 - APPLESEED APR-CD-1035 2000: "A Poor Wayfaring Pilgrim"/ "Palms of Victory"

HICKS, Nathan - NC, USA\ dulc\ 1940 - Dulcimer-maker & player, nephew of Roby, who was Frank and Anne Warner's first contact Beech Mountain, NC in 1940 -- (dulcimer) with Frank PROFFITT (gtr) rec by Frank & Anne Warner (on paper disc) 1940: FTX-927 "Rock, rock, Old Joe Clark" & other similar items rec on tape in the 50s

HICKS, Roby & Buna - N.C., USA\ Singers/ storytellers/ banjo & fiddle\ 1941-60 - Roby, uncle of Nathan Hicks, who was the Warner's first contact when they wrote to him to order a home-made dulcimer, and Buna, Roby's wife, raised 11 children and both played fiddle, banjo and dulcimer. Roby also told stories and Jack Tales (See 928). Linzy was one of 9 sons, their only two daughters being Hattie and Rosa -- rec by Frank & Anne Warner (on paper disc) 1941 & tape 1951, Beech Mountain: FTX-923 & FTX-927 - APPLESEED APR-CD-1035 2000: "River of Life"/ "Top of Mt Zion"


TILLETT, Charles K. "Tink" - Roanoke, NC USA\ Unacc Singer\ 1940-51 - "Tink", and his son, Cliff, were Outer Banks fishermen at Roanoke and his grandson owned a fleet of deep sea trawlers. Mrs. Tillett's father kept the Bodie Head Light, where she was born. Martha Etheridge was her sister. Curt Mann lived at Mann's Harbor, which links Roanoke with the mainland. while the Culpepers were natives of Nag's Head -- rec by Frank & Anne Warner: FTX-926 - APPLESEED APR-CD-1035 2000: "Somebody's waiting for me"/ Bony on th Isle of St Helena"

TILLETT, Eleazor - Roanoke, NC USA\ unacc singer\ 1951 - APPLESEED APR-CD-1035 2000: "Come, love, come"/ Talk & "The Jolly Thresher"/ with Martha Etheridge: "Her Bright Smile Haunts Me" FTX-926


So.... all these Folktrax recordings were a) made by Frank & Anne Warner and b) released on vinyl on the Appleseed label in the USA.

I presume, therefore, that Peter Kennedy had a proper license from Appleseed to release these in the UK and pay royalties to the artists concerned and that Dick Greenhaus and CAMSCO are happy that this license can be extended to them......

I do know that the royalties involved would be very tiny amounts and I will be very happy to retract my implications here if it can be proved that I am making wrong assumptions but there is some morality under question here.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 01:55 PM

To add to Vic's posting above,

The Tom Dooley story is told in 2 US histories of the revival - Robert Cantwell's When we were Good and Ronald Cohen's Rainbow Quest. They each show the complex situation about where the Kingston trio might have learned the song from.
Cohen says that Warner first heard Proffitt sing it in 1938, and Warner sang it and recorded it himself on his own album in 1952. Lomax had already published it in Folk Song USA in 1947, attributing Warner. Then The Folksay Trio recorded it. Dave Guard of Kingston Trio said he first heard it sung by a folk-singing psychologist auditioning at the Purple Onion. Guard copied the words from Dick & Beth Best's New Song Fest, published privately in 1948 and commercially in 1955 - this listed no copyright.
After the Kingston Trio's success, Ludlow Music, jointly representing Warner and Lomax, sued Capitol records which had listed the song as "Traditional - arranged Dave Guard". the result was that after 1962 (Tom Dooley was in the charts in second part of 1958) the royalties were split - presumably between Guard/KTrio and Lomax/Warner. In Ronald Lankford's Folk Music USA, he says that Warner then split his share with Proffitt.

But .... the song was recorded by G.B.Grayson, a blind fiddler from Tennessee, in the twenties. He was a descendant of the Grayson who was arrested for the murder.

It may seem strange that the law suit did not involve Proffitt. Or Grayson or his descendants? Or the original composer, whoever he was?

In other words, copyright in traditional music is a minefield.

Derek


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 02:28 PM

that was a response to Vic's earlier post, niot the one immediately above which he must have been writing when I was writing mine ....
Derek


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 02:48 PM

How much did ·a· Ewan & Peggy {it was on their Argo Long Harvest set}, or ·b· Simon & Garfunkel pay to Mr Anderson, the retired Teasdale, Yorkshire, lead miner, from whom THAT version of Scarboro Fair was collected in 1948, or to his heirs and assigns?

A mnemonic interest in G B Grayson, from a record of whose remastered on The Railroad In Folksong vinyl LP I learned The Red & Green Signal Lights, track 1 on my Butter&Cheese&All record of 1989 ~~ also on my Youtube Channel. V interested to learn of his connection to the actuality of the Tom Dooley legend.

~Michael~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 03:48 PM

Thanks for the info, Vic and Derek.

I recall an allusion to Proffitt and "Tom Dooley" in Time magazine around 1961. Even that not-terribly-progressive publication pointed out, ironically, the Trio's deserved financial success from "Tom Dooley" and Proffitt's lack of it. Possibly Time's mention was in connection with the lawsuit that was later settled out of court.

Time's point, that Proffitt's experience up to that time might indicate a real ethical issue, was well taken.

Naturally I'm not suggesting that Proffitt was "exploited" by anybody named in this discussion, or by anyone else, for that matter. And all I know of the suit is what's in this thread. As Jim and Derek observe, though, it's a minefield, and it was at least as bad in the '50s.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 03:49 PM

"How much did ·a· Ewan & Peggy {it was on their Argo Long Harvest set}"
Ewan and Peggy were employees of the BBC when the recording was made and as far as I know they never claimed nor received payment for any traditional song they sang (or do you know any different) - though I believe Bob Dylan did for Scarborough Fair.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 04:34 PM

Nit Picking again but Grayson was not arrested for the murder. Sheriff Grayson was the man that arrested Tom Dooley /Dula for the murder of Laura Foster.

Hoot


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 04:46 PM

and in fact DULA did not commit the murder.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 05:06 PM

Jim
I think MgM was referring to Ewan's collection of Scarborough fair from Mr Anderson. Wasn't that in the 40s? (I don't have a copy of The Singing Island in which that song is published I think). I've even heard it suggested that Ewan didn't collect it, and that Joan Littlewood (then Mrs MacColl) collected it. Is that correct?
Derek


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Vic Smith
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 05:28 PM

Derek wrote:-
"(I don't have a copy of The Singing Island in which that song is published I think).


The note on Scarborough Fair in The Singing Island just says:-
From the singing of Mark Anderson, retired lead-miner of Middleton-in-Teasdale, Yorkshire. in 1947.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 05:48 PM

Jim ~~ What Ewan & Peggy got paid was not my question: what I asked was, did Mr Anderson, or any of his heirs, get anything when Ewan & Peggy recorded his song on The Long Harvest (for which they must have got paid by Decca Records, the BBC were not involved there]; or later when Sim&Garf rocketed that version into the charts (after Paul Simon had learned it from Martin Carthy, IIRC)?

~M~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 03:32 AM

Georgina Boyes queries something that I said on another Peter Kennedy thread. I suggested that, in an ideal world, Peter Kennedy would have ended up as head of a University Department. I knew Peter when he worked for the EFDSS (I was his assistant for a year)and he was then held in quite high esteem by many people. Did you know him then Georgina? As I have previously said, Peter's copyrighting of songs, a system he got from Alan Lomax, was going on before I knew him and I never liked this aspect of his collecting work. But, and I will repeat this, the problems grew when he lost his job at the EFDSS. I certainly did not approve of what he did with the recordings, but, in a sense, can understand why he acted the way that he did. In an ideal world, Peter would not have lost his EFDSS job and would not have acted in the way that he subsequently did.

Some years ago Rounder Records issued three CDs of "The Folksongs of Britain". They, like the original LPs in the series, were full of truncated songs and the reviews, including ones by myself, were pretty scathing. I had a phonecall from Alan Lomax's daughter asking me if I would take over the series. I agreed, on the condition that the songs and singers were treated with respect. I contacted Peter Kennedy and told him what I wanted to do. But to no avail. Peter insisted that I should not issue the songs in their complete form (Don't ask me why he said that. I couldn'e figure it out!)So, sadly, I withdrew, suggesting some other people who might like to have a go at the reissues. Of course, nothing happened.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Georgina Boyes
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 06:08 AM

Oddly enough, I've never worked for the EFDSS, so came into contact with the results of Peter Kennedy's work through my own fieldwork in Castleton, Derbyshire from 1965. Even at that time, he was already gaining a questionable reputation and later rumours swirled around the 'real' reason for his sudden departure from the EFDSS.

From the point of view of people in Castleton however, it was his apparent thoughtlessness that caused them real difficulty. He made a series of BBC radio programmes using his earlier recordings but never contacted any of the people whose contributions he used to let them know about the broadcasts. In consequence, some people missed their chance to hear themselves (quite a big deal then) and more seriously, one family suddenly heard the voice of their recently dead father coming out of the radio and - as you might imagine - were thoroughly shocked as a result. Yes, it was lack of consideration for contributors' feelings, rather than anything more blameworthy, but the human results for contributors in Castleton were significant all the same.

He could also demonstrate amazing cheek. Once contacting Radio 3 to claim he'd been "shocked to the core" that a series I'd written and presented for them had not consulted him about the use of "recordings of traditional folk musicians, especially as many of them were in fact my own recordings".

Subsequently, he wrote to Manchester University Press (the original publishers of my book, The Imagined Village) demanding to know why I hadn't "sought the co-operation of the one living authority who has the necessary experience and knowledge on the subject [of the Folk Revival]" before it was issued. Because the book contained references to his parents, Douglas and Helen Kennedy and aunt, Maud Karpeles, he claimed that "on moral grounds" he should have "received a copy for checking before publication" and "a small royalty on sales or an outright sum based on the number of words employed". The publishers did not agree to this.

He also recorded at least one programme I made for Radio 2 off air and put it up for sale in the Folktrax catalogue. Perhaps I should have claimed "a royalty" for this, but he didn't choose to contact me about it.

I met him a few times and (even after the publications of The Imagined Village) we had perfectly pleasant conversations, particularly about Maud Karpeles. But claiming "moral grounds" for his actions and asserting his ownership of recordings he'd made while working for the BBC or recorded off-air can't be justified.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 06:14 AM

Good points, Mike.
as regards peoples behaviour, people have the potential to have both good and bad qualities, there is a valid argument that if someone is paid enough they do not have to behave in an undignified or deceitful manner, I would like to think that Peter might have fallen into that category.
most people would like to be remembered favourably and I am sure Peter would have wanted to be remembered for his better rather than his worst side.
unfortunately our system CAPATILISM and its partner in crime Consumerism ,often encourages the worst in people, it encourages people to be greedy and concerned with only their own material desires and needs, rather than treating other people in the way that the person might want to be treated himself


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 06:17 AM

Which brings me back to Topic records, were they not founded for altruistic reasons,as I understand The promotion of traditional music to be made available for everybody, particularly those without much money.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 06:59 AM

"He also recorded at least one programme I made for Radio 2 off air and put it up for sale in the Folktrax catalogue. Perhaps I should have claimed "a royalty" for this, but he didn't choose to contact me about it."
interesting, it rather confirms my suspicions, that his bootlegging of The Bald Headed End Of The Broom, was not at that time just for Private Study, and that the Private Study bit was added later, and like Georgina I was never contacted.
for People like Martin Graebe and Greg Stephens and Derek Schofield, to say this is ok morally beggars belief, it is not ok morally and this sort of behaviour on the folk scene needs to be eradicated along with dodgy promoters , have all those people that paid up front to go to Pickering festival been reimbursed?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 07:25 AM

Mike:
"What Ewan & Peggy got paid was not my question:"
Sorry, was attempting to point out that Ewan and (I should have written Joan Litlewood, Peggy was not involved) Joan were employed by the BBC when Scarborough Fair was collected.
I have no idea whether the Beeb paid Mark Anderson for his song or for his time.
Ewan's use of the song on The Long Harvest:
Again, I don't know if they paid Mark Anderson's heirs (he would almost certainly have been long dead as he was described as "a retired lead miner at the time of the recording) for the use of the song, but I doubt it; as far as I know it was never the practice of revival singers to pay their sources for the use of traditional songs; they are, I believe, in the public domain and belong to no-one (or "everybody", as Walter Pardon put it). It is, as far as I know, not even necessary to inform the source singer that you intend to use his or her songs - the song we recorded from Mary Delaney, "What Will We Do" has been recorded at least half-a-dozen times without either us, the collectors, or Mary being paid, or even informed that it was going to be used and that is the way it should be as far as I am concerned. Walter certainly never received payment for any of his songs, though he was both amused and irritated at the same time on hearing of the squabble between two revival 'stars' over who should have the right to record one of his songs.
A quick shufti through our copies of The Singing Island, Scotland Sings, Folk Songs and Ballads of Scotland - all collections of songs compiled by MacColl and Seeger, shows that while the collection as a published work was copyrighted, the individual songs are not and are treated as being in the public domain. I know that this is what Ewan advocated, and as far as I knew, adhered to.
Kennedy, as far as I know, did the opposite: he claimed ownership on every item he (and others on the BBC project) collected and demanded payment for their use; Vic's story verfies this to be the case.
People in the know are free to correct me but Karl Dallas embarked on a series of ten very worthwhile themed songbooks, starting with 'Songs of Toil' and 'Songs of War', but was forced to abandon them after these two when Kennedy demanded payment for some of the items.
I have no idea of the legality of his claims, but I know some people paid up out of ignorance or just to avoid hassle.
I believe he got many of his singers to sign the songs over to him via a written 'contract'
I assume his rationale was that each version could be described as 'an arrangement'. If this is the case then the law of public domain cannot be applied to any folk song. The "arrangement" practice has always been a grey area for me anyway".
When MacColl, Seeger and Parker were recording for the Radio Ballads I believe they made a 'verbal' contract for the use of the recordings only . These were recorded on tape at the end of sessions - I have one somewhere here with Sam Larner.   
Derek- quickly:
The collecting project as far as I know was for a BBC programme called The Ballad Hunters, produced by Olive Shaply from songs recorded by Ewan and Joan (have the date somewhere I think).
I know it happened because, while Ewan seldom referred to it, I heard Joan talking about it once.
They recorded songs from Mark Anderson and Beckett Whitehead, among others, the most memorable for me being Scarborough Fair and Four Loom Weaver (which I suspect, Ewan heavily arranged), also Fourpence a Day. Ewan later ressurected 'Drinking' and ''T Owd Chap Cam' O'er the Bank' (an extremely bawdy version of Seven Nights Drunk).
Sorry - much more to say on song ownership which interests me deeply, but the bloody sun is shinging here and the acre of grass and weeds which we euphamistically refer to as a garden calls.
Maybe people are interested enough to continue this later.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 08:40 AM

Can I make it clear, once again, to the readers of this thread that I have not stated that I condone bootlegging, which I defined earlier in this thread. Dick Miles aka GSS, take note!
Derek


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 10:04 AM

Derek, it clearly states on the record[and this is the purpose of PPL], no unauthorised recording whatsoever, IT IS ILLEGAL, You defended people recording illegally for their own private use[I consider that bootlegging whatever your dictionary says, any how whatever you wish to call it, it is illegal.
   KENNEDY recorded at least one programme made by Georgina Boyes, and put it up for sale on folktrax catalogue, I am fairly sure this is what he did with The Bald Headed End Of The Broom, which appeared on his Folktrax catalogue, and which NOW says for private study only, but did not say that a few years ago, When I noticed it.
KENNEDY did record and sell things illegally, and the people on this thread who think he didnt do this to me also, have been unable to answer the question that if he wanted it for private use,why did he not give me a phone call or contact me.
Derek,Martin,Greg, it is illegal[and in my opinion immoral] to record somebody elses LP FOR ANY PURPOSE WHATSOEVER without asking permission.
Peter Kennedy showed Georgina and me a complete lack of respect, in Georginas case he was selling the recording, I am convinced this is what he was also doing with my recording, although I cant prove it now., however he was behaving in an underhand and illegal matter.
IF YOU DONT AGREE, campaign for the abolition of PPL protection


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 10:06 AM

I'm still baffled. As a retailer who tries to be both honest and ethical, Am I to he held personally responsible for the behaviour of my supplierss? Or is it considered to be good thing that this music should be unavailable to the public?
I can only assume that what I buy for resale is the legal property of the publishers I purchase from, whether that publisher is Topic, or Smithsonian Folkways or Dave Bulmer or Peter Kennedy. I frankly have no idea of how to properly recompense source singers (the aformentioned Kingston Trio Tom Dooley owes at least as much to the Folksay Trio as it does to Frank Proffitt, who wasn't the first to record it in any case).
In any case, the amounts of money involved would likely be less than the cost of a pint or so at a festival pub.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 10:07 AM

Your reply re Mark Anderson surprised me not one whit, Jim; I had assumed that he would not have got anything. But did Ewan {or anybody} get anything from Simon & Garfunkel after Scarboro Fair went global in their version, after they interpolated it, for no reason, narrative, atmospheric, or whatever that I could ever fathom,into the soundtrack of The Graduate,a film about adultery & loss of virginity?

Don't expect so.

~M~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 10:23 AM

Dick Greenhaus wrote:-
"As a retailer who tries to be both honest and ethical, Am I to he held personally responsible for the behaviour of my supplierss?"


Well, if you are really trying to be "honest and ethical", what do you think the answer to your question is?
If you know or suspect that your supplier operates in a dishonest way, are you happy to continue supplying that person's goods?

Dick Greenhaus wrote:-
"I frankly have no idea of how to properly recompense source singers"

Well, there are honest and ethical suppliers that try their very best to contact the artists who have recorded their traditional songs... or their descendants.

A singer finds out that their songs/music have been released or supplied by your business and they know nothing about it and they are unhappy about this. How does this make you feel?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 11:19 AM

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: greg stephens - PM
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 03:51 PM

I have to admit to the dreadful crime of recording songs off radio folk programmes onto a cassette. The Good Soldier thinks this is a crime; I don't. I bet most of us have done the same. And have not the slightest objection to the practise. I am absolutely delighted that Peter Kennedy recorded a number of my own radio prorammes and catalogued them. Otherwise they would have been lost, the BBC was not specially motivated when it came to archiving their own folk recordings!
Peter Kennedy may or not have been guilty of some dubious practises. Putting his cassette recorder in front of the speaker for Folk on 2 wasn't one of them.Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Martin Graebe - PMFrom: GUEST,Derek Schofield - PM
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 05:57 PM

Martin and Dick (GSS) disagree on the cassette business.
Looking at the Folktrax archive, this is the entry:

BALD HEADED END OF THE BROOM, THE - "O love it is a funny thing - it affects both young and old" - ROUD#2129 - MERCHANT: Gargling Songster, Chicago, c1885 titled "Lines of Love" - RANDOLPH 1946 - KENNEDY FSBI 1975 p449 Martha Gillen 1954 -- Martha GILLEN, rec by Seamus Ennis, Co Antrim, 1954: RPL 21839/ FTX-019 & FTX-434 - Dick & Sue Miles Radio Folk on Two 1984 CASS 0453 --- Beach Mt NC: FOLK LEGACY FSA-23

If you look at this on the website, FTX19 and FTX434 are hyperlinked to Folktrax cassettes that Kennedy sold. Neither of them contains Dick's recording - they contain the Martha Gillen recording. CASS 0453 is not hyper-linked, suggesting to me that it was - as Martin states - a private recording that he made from the radio and kept as such in his archive. We've all done it. This all suggests that it was not sold. Now, of course, the recording might have been put on a Folktrax commercial cassette at some stage between 1984 and a while prior to Kennedy's death. I don't know. But that's not what the website suggests.

I'm no apologist for Kennedy. I knew him, we fell out, talked to each other again and fell out again. He did some dubious things with recordings, but perhaps not on this occasion.

Derek
Finally, I will remind all 3 of you, that the law states categorically, no recording whatsoever for any purposes, without permission, that is what PPL is there for.
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 08:17 AM

Sorry, Derek - I did, of course, mean you

And, Dick, I do see a difference between bootlegging and recording a programme off-air for later listening - and if you have never done it I would be surprised at your virtue relative to the rest of people I know.

m


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 11:26 AM

Date: 21 Jun 11 - 08:17 AM

Sorry, Derek - I did, of course, mean you

And, Dick, I do see a difference between bootlegging and recording a programme off-air for later listening - and if you have never done it I would be surprised at your virtue relative to the rest of people I know.

m
the above post, should not have been there,
but since it was.
The law states, for no purposes whatsoever, without permission.
Kennedy did this to GeorginaBoyes for his own financial gain, he also did it to me,for almost certainly[imo]although I can no longer prove it, the private study [crap] has been inserted later,and if it was for private study he should still have contacted me.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 11:29 AM

"Don't expect so."
Sorry; still apparently mistaking your drift.
Anybody who was ever paid to sing at a traditional type club did so using songs they/we got from traditional singers (thought about starting a list here, but have neither time space nor inclination.
Anybody who made an album of traditional songs... likewise.
Anybody who published a collection.....
Anybody who learned a song from that collection and then makes an album or takes a fee from a folk club......
Should they/we seek out the source singers or their heirs before we take the fee?
Are you proposing that traditional songs be removed from public domain?
No - MacColl never received a fee from Simon and Garfunkle or Bob Dylan - according to Martin Carthy, Dylan got the song from him on a visit to Britain.
As far as my knowledge of the affair stretches, the American singers who hit the jackpot with the song paid nobody, almost certainly claiming royalties on the "arranged by" basis.
As I said, to my knowledge MacColl never claimed nor took payment for any traditional song he collected, not even those he built up from virtually nothing, such as Alan Tyne of Harrow.
I know he paid singers like Caroline Hughes, I know all the traditional singers who were included in the Radio Ballads received BBC cheques and assume that those included on albums like 'Now Is The Time For Fishing' received fees from the record companies.
What's your point?
Dick G:
I don't think anybody here is trying to implicate you in Kennedy's dirty dealings, certainly not me.
For me the problem lies with the behaviour of the collector - 'the original sin.'
The distributor, publisher, revival singer bear no part of the blame for what this particular collector did to his sources or to those of us who feel that these songs are part of our heritage and belong to us all.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Brian Peters
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 01:40 PM

I'm not sure why Dick Greenhaus is taking flak on this thread. I know Dick to be an enthusiast for traditional song who is motivated more than anything else by the desire to make rare stuff (for which there is a market so limited that any profits are tiny) available to those enthusiasts who wish to hear it. This is the same person that pulled off the previously unimaginable feat of reprinting Bronson's Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads at an affordable price. Will Topic be held to the same high standards regarding Kennedy's 'collection' that are being demanded of Camsco?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 02:57 PM

"The law states, for no purposes whatsoever, without permission."

You might want to check that law again. In most countries that I know of, you are allowed to make a copy for personal use - but not for sale or distribution. Otherwise VHS, DVNR, DVD-R and cassette recorders would be illegal.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 03:20 PM

no, Ron, it clearly stated that on the back of the L.P.
PERMISSION HAS TO BE ASKED,end of story


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 03:31 PM

What it actually says on the back of "The Dunmow Flitch" is:

"Copyright exists in all recordsissued by Sweet Folk All Recordings Limited. Any unauthorised broadcasting, public performance, copying or re-recording of such records in any manner whatsoever will constitute an infringement of such copyright. Application for public performance licenses should be addrsssed to ...."

so it is obvious that permission has to be asked for the recording to be played in public, but elsewhere there is, let us say, a slight touch of ambiguity.

PS. I bought my copy from Dick himself at the Willoughby Arms in Kingston.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 03:38 PM

"I'm not sure why Dick Greenhaus is taking flak on this thread."
He isn't - he appears to be assuming that he is being blamed.
"If you know or suspect that your supplier operates in a dishonest way....."
To be fair, throughout the time I have been involved in the music there has been little or no discussion on Kennedy's behaviour for a number of reasons - influential father (friend of royalty) and aunt being not the least of them, and his tendency to threaten to resort to law whenever he thought his position was being threatened running a close second.
Whatever information I gained on his behaviour was passed on in hushed tones behind locked doors - sort of!
I really think there was very little known of his behaviour outside a fairly tight circle of people who chose - for our sins - to do nothing about it
When he died an RIP thread was opened on this forum and when I contributed a few non-complementary points amid all the eulogies, the avalanche of protests that followed left me with the feeling that I had farted in church gradually building until I began to think I might have murdered John Lennon. If my memory serves Dick/GSS, it was you who administered one of the severest kickings.
Kennedy did what he did because we let him get away with it; some were more responsible that others (five letters, starting with E and ending with S), but in truth, those closest to the fire should have put it out before it took hold and did the damage. It seems a bit smug hindsightish to point the finger at somebody who I doubt was aware of these shennanigans.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 03:39 PM

Sorry I dont see an ambiguity,as I understand that,it means that kennedy re recorded and copied the record,and constituted an infringement.
I Remember the Kingston[FightingCocks] Folk club very well, I did my first booking there.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 05:11 PM

'no, Ron, it clearly stated that on the back of the L.P.
PERMISSION HAS TO BE ASKED,end of story "

Sorry, I am not trying to be argumentative - but that is NOT the end of the story. The law is pretty specific about what you can and cannot do with copies.

You can write anything you want on the back of an LP - do not listen to on Thursdays, you must listen to track 3 in the nude, etc. - none of it is binding.

Just for discussion, could you write the EXACT wording that appears on the LP?    I'm not trying to be picky or start an argument, but this is important to understand and I do not see the posting of these words.

This is a fascinating, and important, discussion.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 05:12 PM

Jim,yes,you are right,I did criticise you and I apologise.
my opinions have changed as a result of reading different posts on the subject of Peter Kennedy on this forum,there were a number of things I did not know about.
however,despite his discourteous behaviour as regards his recording my lp without my permission and putting it on his catalogue,I still see him as a Curates Egg., partly good, partly bad, but as a result entirely spoiled


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 05:16 PM

Sorry, I wrote my note before seeing Dave's post.   

I sincerely doubt that the UK law is much different from US law - you CAN make a personal copy for yourself IF YOU OWN THE RECORDING TO BEGIN WITH. You can also record OFF AIR if it for your personal use and not sold to others. This is not a violation of copyright. There is nothing unethical or immmoral about taping a radio program for personal use.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 05:18 PM

the exact wording is, Copyright exists in all records issued by Sweet Folk All recordings limited.
Any unauthorised broadcasting,public performance,COPYING OR RE RECORDING OF SUCH RECORDS IN ANY MANNER WHATSOEVER WILL CONSTITUTE AN INFRINGEMENT OF SUCH COPYRIGHT.
application for public perfomance licences should be adressed to PPL


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 05:23 PM

Ron, you are wrong KENNEDY DID NOT OWN IT, the recording belonged to SWEET FOLK AND COUNTRY.
KENNEDY did not even collect the original song.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 05:40 PM

If you have read right through the thread, you will see that he recorded Georgina Boyes Programme and had it for sale on his catalogue. I have already said this before but I will say it again I AM SURE Kennedy was selling my recording, and the private study, has been ADDED MORE RECENTLY.
KENNEDY, had already done it[acted imorally and illegally] at least once, see Georgina Boyes.
Ron I dont care about US law, we are talking about the UK.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 05:42 PM

I guess you know more than the rest of us.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 05:44 PM

For the record, I did not say that Kennedy OWNED the recording. I was trying to establish how the recording was made and used and in what context personal recordings could theoretically be made.

This is NOT just about UK law.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 06:22 PM

Ron , please read all the posts all will be revealed.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 06:23 PM

100 sorry lead


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 06:30 PM

I did, it is still a bit ambiguous - and as you pointed out, there are now 100 posts in this thread. Points have been made, debunked, redefined, and restated.

If I'm reading this correctly, Kennedy recorded this off a radio show. That point seems "legal" and "ethical".   From there it gets fuzzy as some people say he sold it, others say it was for personal use.   Selling it is purely out of the question and should have been stopped, if that actually happened.

Sorry, I am just trying to understand - somethings are getting lost in the translation and various interpretations.   No offense was meant, this is an important subject and I am only looking for clarification, not berating.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Quango banjo
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 07:25 PM

I remember as an Irish student on summer holidays working on the motorways down in Devon in 1974(?)and living in a watchmans hut to save any money i could. I visited Peter Kennedy's place to research some songs and was disappointed to discover he charged a lot of money to get access to the resources. It kind of dampened my youthful enthusiasm. Interesting to discover he was rather an exploiter.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 03:18 AM

GSS:
Sorry to interrupt the point you have already made pretty succinctly Cap'n, but while you dominate this thread with your quabble over what was done to you, Kennedy slips out the back door - again.
I agree entirely with Ron Olesko "This is a fascinating, and important discussion" which it would be a great shame to waste on a (as you have made clear, justified) personal grievence.
A story from Irish collector and broadcaster, the late Cairán MacMathúna, which I believe illustrates the incredible generosity of the people who gave us our raw material to work with.
He was recording an old fiddle player in Kerry, a poor small farmer with a few acres and a handful of cattle.
At the end of the session Ciarán said; "There is the matter of a small recording fee".
The old man thought for few seconds, then said; "I have no money in the house at present, but I'm taking a bullock to the market tomorrow; will it be all right if I pay you then?"
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Nebucanezzar Bumblechook
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 03:59 AM

A posting I made a couple of days ago never made it into this discussion - maybe I hit a wrong key at the end.
I found available on Folktraxs several CDs of recordings made by Alan Lomax in Scotland, copies given to Peter Kennedy offered for sale available as 'co-recorded' by him though documentation says he was hundreds of miles away at the time. Some of these I recently learned were copies of BBC recordings [not by Peter Kennedy] that Lomax had made. One other Lomax only track is I understand despite polite protests still to be included in the current Kennedy series.
I have never understood how some collectors can claim all royalties. They are of course owed for use of their recording, and then yes a slice of the little pie for their effort in collecting. The rest of the pie notionally has to be shared out to the singer of the song, the maker of the song or if that person is not known the person the singer got it from, and on down the line, the financial proportion for each to be varied according to how much editorial and creative input each participant has added / subtracted / amended.
The fact that none of the above can in sanity be done is one of the many fine arguments for a national fund that 'trad' royalties should be paid into, to be used to support / preserve / celebrate / promote our traditions.
NB


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Nebucanezzar Bumblechook
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 04:07 AM

On the other side of the holding on to royalties coin, a true tale.
Billy Connolly recorded a song 'Three Men Frae Carntyne'. He sent on the royalty cheque to the Glasgow performer he had heard it from, who said "I only added on a bit" and sent the cheque to a Dunfermline performer he had heard it from, who in turn said "I only added on a bit". A Fife car mechanic whose only other known song is "Who stole the poultice aff the scabby heidit wean?" opened his post one morning to find a cheque for several thousand pounds.
NB


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Nebucanezzar Bumblechook
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 05:37 AM

Loking through the Folktrax online to cross-check on some of my above statements, I found Peter Kennedy's greatest but little known claim to fame - "before Lonnie Donegan arrived, John Hasted had "Skiffle" going at Cecil Sharp House and Peter had told George Martin of an outstanding group of Quarrymen in Liverpool."
How's that?
NB


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 12:09 PM

ok, a collector collects some songs from a traditional singer.
he then has to pay for the cd to be produced,and his expenses petrol etc, he has to recoup the cost of this, but what happens next, a contract between the two people has to be agreed? it would seem fair that any profits are then split equally between the two people.
An alternative is that the traditional singer is paid a lump sum in advance for his songs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 01:39 PM

Cap'n,
".....the traditional singer is paid a lump sum in advance for his songs."
This presumes that the commercially use of the songs is the object of the exercise in the first place - I know very few instances where this has been the case.
Primarily the collectors I have know, (us included) have recorded for archival and research purposes; any albums we have put out have been a side-product.
The sale of albums of field recordings is pitifully small and more often than not does not even cover the production costs.
The one instance where we issued an album of a single singer (Tom Lenihan), a fee was agreed between the singer and the company (Topic); we had nothing to do with it other than to act as go-betweens; our 'payment' was 6 copies of the LP.
Other companies have not been so generous; for more recent projects we were given 10 copies which we had to distribute between the singers and their families. Because they were ensembles of numerous singers the initial 'fee' was so pitifully small that if we had shared it out the sum would have been insulting so, with the agreement of all the singers we donated all royalties to the Irish Traditional Music Archive - poured it back into the music. That has always been our practice with everything we do connected with collecting.
I have no idea what the average financial expectancy is for a revival singer, but it doesn't work for source singers.
In the end it becomes a choice between issuing an album and making up the financial shortfall yourself or leaving the material on an archive shelf for posterity; we chose the latter as long as we could get the full agreement of the singers . In 30 years we never encountered a financial problem with the singers we have known - they simply did not connect the act of singing with making money. One thing we always guaranteed was that if there was any payment arising from the recordings it was automatically theirs.
There have been perks we have been able to offer; fees for club appearences (severely limited by the small number of clubs prepared to book relatively unknown field singers - "We don't do anything like that; we're a fok club!!") and visits to local schools and libraries.
We were once caught out by, surprisingly enough, The National Folk Festival at Sutton Bonnington when we took a Traveller storyteller singer only to find that they only paid expenses. As that included (only) one of us and the singer we managed to combine our and his expenses and chip in something to cover his fee for the week-end.
He was surprised and delighted to receive anything - for us it was a a salutory lesson in how the traditional/revival class system operated, even among those with the best of intentions.
Better get down off my hobby-horse before I end up with writers cramp.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 05:25 PM

Jim ~~ How does one get writer's cramp from riding on a hobby-horse? Surely more a case of that well-known memoir, "My 40 years in the Saddle, by Major Bumsore."

~Michael~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 11 - 11:06 AM

Thank you Mike, but with respect, you've never seen me ride.
While I'm on:
"we chose the latter"
Sould, of course read we chose the former.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Greg Gunner
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 02:33 PM

The Proffitt family's claim to "Tom Dooley" is attributed to Frank Proffitt's grandmother Phoebe Pardue Proffitt. According to the Proffitt family's version of the story that I heard from Frank Proffitt, Jr. and read elsewhere, Phoebe Pardue grew up in Wilkes County where the Tom Dooley saga took place. Supposedly, Phoebe heard the song as a young girl in Wilkes County and later taught it to Frank Proffitt's father, Wiley Proffitt, and paternal aunt, Nancy Proffitt Prather. Frank Proffitt, in turn, learned it from his father and his aunt.

Chronologically, there is one problem with the Proffitt version. The Tom Dooley saga took place immediately following the Civil War. Although it is true that Phoebe Pardue and her family originated from Wilkes County, North Carolina, Phoebe Pardue had been living in Johnson County Tennessee at least since the 1860 Johnson County Tennessee Census. Phoebe Proffitt married John Wesley Proffitt (Frank Proffitt's grandfather) sometime after the Civil War. This would suggest that Phoebe Proffitt was already a young married woman at the time of the Tom Dooley saga, not a young girl in Wilkes County, North Carolina.

Also, Grayson and Whitter recorded "Tom Dooley" in the late 1920's, eight to nine years before Frank Proffitt's version was collected by the Warner's. Grayson was a native of Johnson County Tennessee, and a neighbor of John Wesley Proffitt and Phoebe Pardue Proffitt.

It appears that "Tom Dooley" was a local song popular in east Tennessee and northwest North Carolina. Grayson may have learned the song from the Proffitt family. Or Frank Proffitt may have learned the song from the Grayson and Whitter recording. However, the explanation could be as simple as both Grayson and Whitter and Frank Proffitt learning the song from oral tradition, a tradition that never recorded the composer's name. And since Tom Dula (Dooley) was captured in Johnson County Tennessee, the story and the song had a great amount of interest in east Tennessee.

Frank Proffitt's claim to ownership centered on a verse or two that was found in the Proffitt version of "Tom Dooley" that was not present in other versions. The conclusion being that the Kingston Trio used the Proffitt version via Frank Warner and not some other version.

Like somewone else has written, the bulk of the royalties went to the Kingston Trio, as they owned the rights prior to the 1962 settlement. Frank Proffitt's inital royalty check went to pay his son's college tuition. Subsequent checks enabled him to secure a loan to build his family a new home. It was either Lee Haggerty or Sandy Paton who loaned Frank Proffitt the money to finish his home. The loan was to be paid off through income generated by the sale of Frank Proffitt's recordings and handmade musical instruments. With Frank Proffitt's untimely death in 1965 and folk music's slow demise under the onslaught of rock and roll, the loan was never fully repaid.

Frank Proffitt did not compose "Tom Dooley", but neither did the Kingston Trio. The issue was not whether Frank Proffitt owned the song, but whether or not he owned his family's version of the song, particularly the common lyrics.

Greg


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 04:30 PM

Check this old thread song Tom Dooley for related posts by Sandy Paton and Nerd (Stephen Winick of the LOC American Folklife Center), as well as links to a few more Mudcat threads.

~ Becky in Long Beach


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Forest Gate geezer
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 08:36 AM

Surely skiffle was invented by Dan Burley in 1946 or 7 ? He had a tune called Skiffle Blues then....and in 1946 he recorded as Dan Burley and his Skiffle Boys.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Another Forest Gate Geezer
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 10:06 AM

I think you can go back at least to the nineteen twenties with Paramount Records Home Town Skiffle.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Feb 16 - 11:13 PM

The British Library has a good number of recordings made by Peter kennedy. I don't know if these are the Folktrax recordings. They're in different order, if they are the same.
-Joe-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 16 - 04:55 AM

The bulk of Kennedy's recordings were those he made while working for the BBC in the early 1950s - he sold them without consulting either the Beeb or the performers.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 16 - 05:18 AM

Correction - Kennedy did not 'make' all the recordings he sold - many were recorded by Bob Copper, Sean O'Boyle, Seamus Ennis and others - he didn't consult them either
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Henry Piper of Ottery.
Date: 17 Feb 16 - 05:54 AM

Unfortunately I have only recently discovered this thread, but sadly have to concur with much of what has been said about Peter Kennedy's attitude to material he collected or recorded. In my capacity as Leader of the Sidmouth Traditional Mummers, I have spoken to members of the family of Arthour Baker, from whom the Sidmouth play was collected in 1957,as well as others involved at the time.
The play was collected from Arthour in 1957, and published by the Dartington institute shortly thereafter, copies of the script were freely sold both by Dartington, and Kennedy himself, for many years with, no financial recompense to Arthour or any of his companions, who also travelled at their own expense up to London to record an impromptu read through of the play for Kennedy and a group of his folklore enthusiast friends, this recording was also made available for sale on C.D via kennedy under the folktrax banner, towards the end of his life, I had several conversations with kennedy,both over the 'phone and via email, and he sent me a C.D of this recording, at no charge, but it came with dire warnings hand written on the sleeve that I must not use it for public performance or similar without his express permission, or else I would be liable to pay royalty to Kennedy as the copyright holder.
it is also regrettable that over the years the part played by local schoolteacher Win Humphries who was largely responsible for bringing the play to Kennedy's attention was systematically reduced, with collecting credits latterly given solely to Kennedy.
It is unlikely that Kennedy made a fortune from his exploitation of the Sidmouth Play, but it seems sad to us current generation of Sidmouth Mummers that those who actually created and performed the play got nothing, whilst others did receive an (albeit small) financial reward.
It is to be hoped that todays generation of collectors have a more altruistic and fair minded attitude to their sources than those of kennedys time.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 10:15 AM

The British Library now has a pretty second site for accessing the collection, in addition to the British Library Sounds link given by Joe Offer, above. It was developed by Andrew Pace. It's a different interface for the same material -- the original link does not redirect to the new site.

www.peterkennedyarchive.org/

"This website has been developed by Andrew Pace, who has been sorting and cataloguing Peter Kennedy's collection at the British Library since 2010."

Here's what's posted at the new site about the archive and electronic access:

"All of Peter's recordings, photographs and reports featured on this website are provided by the British Library and are governed by their ethical usage policy. Enquiries about the collection should be directed to the World and Traditional Music section.

"At present (May 2016) around 250 tapes and nearly 600 photographs from Peter's collection are available to freely access online through British Library Sounds. His full collection of paper files have been catalogued and will be searchable through the British Library's catalogue over the coming months.

"As Peter's archive continues to be digitised more material will be added to Sounds and to this website."

~ Becky currently in Hackettstown


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 10:26 AM

When I posted a link for the new site at Mudcat on Facebook, Facebook helpfully offered a link to a British Library blog post by Andrew Pace about the site: 03 JUNE 2016 Peter Kennedy Archive.

From the intro:

"As part of an AHRC Cultural Engagement project grant awarded to City University and partially funded by the National Folk Music Fund, ethnomusicologist Andrew Pace, has engaged in a project to catalogue thousands of paper and photographic files from Peter Kennedy's collection of British and Irish folk music held at the British Library.

"This month we have launched a unique website - www.peterkennedyarchive.org - in which listeners can retrace the chronology and geographical routes of Kennedy's extensive field recording activity. In the text below, Andrew describes the project and walks us through the website's main features."

He says:

"What makes this website unique is the way it contextualises recordings and photographs of performers with Peter's own notes about them. Whilst the British Library's catalogue is useful as a search tool, it doesn't reveal how a collection was formed and developed – and it doesn't tell us very much about who created it. This new website gives us a better idea of what's in this collection by refocusing attention on Peter as a recordist and reconstituting his material into a form that better resembles how he created it."

~ Becky in Hackettstown


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 02:07 AM

Any current information about the availability of Kennedy's Folktrax recordings?
-Joe-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 04:05 AM

let there be some balance here,yes peter k did try and re cover some of his expenses, he also exploited me, but..... a more apt description would be he was a curates egg, good and bad in places.
Carrolls post is imo not untrue but an exaggeration.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 05:00 AM

"Carrolls post is imo not untrue but an exaggeration."
The name is Jim Carroll Dick - you are not going to give any discussion a chance if you behave the way you are prone to do
Several of us have spent a fair amount of time researching the fortunes of the BBC project in depth and we don't believe it worthwhile to make things up in doing so
Kennedy's behaviour is a fact of history - not an opinion; the fact that it has never been brought to light before now is that Kennedy was always there with the threat of legal action if it had been
A friend's family was recorded in the fifties - he has found that the the all the songs/music they gave to the 'BBC' collector (Kennedy) was not included in the BBC collection
He is at present trying to find if those recordings still exist - perhaps you might know?
Try to be helpful rather than insulting Dick - I'm sure you have something to offer other than vendettas
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 11:46 AM

Jim, do you think that some day soon, all or most of the Kennedy recordings will be available to the public, or are many tied up in ownership claims?
-Joe-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 12:04 PM

"Jim, do you think that some day soon, all or most of the Kennedy recordings will be available to the public"
It really depends on people knowing about them and doing something about it-
When I have finished your disc (soon) you will have a lot of them
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Vic Smith
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 02:18 PM

Some years ago I heard that Topic were going to (or already have) release a 'cherry-pick' of what they deemed were the best ones on Voice of the People 2 and that Musical Traditions were then going to be releasing some of those that were good but even more of a minority appeal.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 05:28 PM

I doubt if there will be any more Voice of the People CDs, sadly. Perhaps in due course, recordings will be available on the British Library site.
Derek Schofield


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Hagman
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 07:01 PM

"I doubt if there will be any more Voice of the People CDs, sadly."

Why is that, Derek? Is that a commercial decision on Topic's part, or policy?

Very sad news, either way....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 04:33 AM

Topic's original plan was to re-issue the 'Folk Songs of Britain' series complete and unedited, but Kennedy's demands made that exorbitantly expensive
I assume that will never now be done
Am I alone in believing that putting anything on line is a poor substitute for albums?
I treasured the thoughtful notes that were always part of buying an album - scholarship at its best in some cases
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Hagman
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 06:46 AM

I'd rather have material online than not have it available at all, but I know what you're saying, Jim - esp. with this kind of thing that warrants elaboration and elucidation.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Vic Smith
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 07:05 AM

I'd rather have material online than not have it available at all, but I know what you're saying, Jim - esp. with this kind of thing that warrants elaboration and elucidation.
I agree totally. However, it not essential that an on-line presence is just the 'stand-alone' recordings. It is also possible that performance can be linked to commentary, lyric and melody transcription on the web and that is what we are struggling towards with the website and database at Sussex Traditions. I say 'struggling' because it is a huge task even to cover one county where there has been a massive amount of collecting work.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 07:29 AM

"Sussex Traditions."
Nice job Vic, would that your enterprise is echoed throughout the countrybut that still entails computer literacy
As backward as it appears, rural Ireland, where much of the BBC collecting took place, is still thin on the ground regarding computer use - as for travellers...!
I know of several from both communities who are hard put to finding relatives... grandparents and such, who gave songs and music to the BBC and would be delighted to be able to buy copies of them if they knew were to find them.
'Progress' tends to leave so many in its wake
Every time this subject comes up, the nee for some sort of a central organisation springs to mind
Even the NSA at the British Library falls short of this - as for EFDSS... what can you say ?
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 02:30 PM

Jim my email was accurate not insulting, imo Kennedy was acurates egg, your surname is Carroll, it is not insulting to use a surname, although the truth was i used your surname as i was in a rush, having more important things to do eg organising folk events, so my intention was not as you seem to think., but use of surnasme was because " jim" had been unintnentionally erased,[due to not good typing] and i really did not think Carroll[without jim] was insulting.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 17 July 4:46 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.