Origins: Mattie Rag meanings (Jamaican Mento)

Subject: RE: Origins: Mattie Rag meanings
From: Crowhugger
Date: 20 Jul 11 - 09:56 AM

According to this site, 'chaw the rag' = 'chewing the fat', i.e. passing the time of day talking. In context of the song it looks like they've used the expression as a euphemism for passing the time of day in a more physical way, i.e. having a tumble in the proverbial hay.
According to this site, mango walk is a mango orchard. (Scroll down to notes at end of lyrics.)
..Mattie is a woman's name, diminutive of Martha or Matilda.
..'tap is 'stop' in dialect.

Taken all together, the meaning I find is basically: Kids don't you go for a tumble in the orchard like daddy did, though it's unclear to me whether the singer means one should enjoy those tumbles where one won't get caught like daddy did, or don't tumble at all (but I'd bet it means the former for boys and the latter for girls).

That's my viewpoint on it anyway, and keep in mind that I have no idea how credible the cited sites are.

Subject: RE: Origins: Mattie Rag meanings
From: goatfell
Date: 20 Jul 11 - 08:29 AM

Yes the Spinners (UK) sang a version of this song

Subject: RE: Origins: Mattie Rag meanings
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 19 Jul 11 - 10:34 PM

Thanks, leeneia! I'm sorry for the excessive posts! BTW, I posted a correction to the lyrics, and this is one of the songs that if you change one word when you're singing it, it changes the meaning. I think that Mattie is a person. "Mattie" is a common nickname for Matilda (more common in the 21st century) or Martha (not so common except among older people).

Subject: RE: Origins: Mattie Rag meanings
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 19 Jul 11 - 10:07 PM

Hi, Morwen. I looked at four sites that purport to be dictionaries of Jamaican words, and none had 'Mattie' or 'rag.'

I guess until a Jamaican comes along and tells us what mattie (or Mattie) rag is, we'll remain perplexed.

Several years ago I visited St Croix in the Virgin Islands, and on that trip I learned that the native speech there combines English, French, and African words. I suppose Jamaican speech does too.

Subject: RE: Origins: Mattie Rag meanings
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 19 Jul 11 - 07:44 AM

Just a note: "Mattie Rag" is part of an orchestral (?) arrangement called "Two Jamaican Street Songs".

Subject: RE: Origins: Mattie Rag meanings
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 09:43 PM

Correction of lyrics. "Wen 'im ax 'im a chaw fa rag" should be "Wen 'im ax 'im a who fa rag".

Subject: RE: Origins: Mattie Rag meanings
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 10:46 PM

refresh. Anyone still interested in this thread? I'm still curious about what it could actually be referring to.

Subject: RE: Origins: Mattie Rag
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 05:33 AM

As an interesting note, "Mattie Rag" seems to be considered Jamaican folk as well as mento. Does anyone know when the earliest recording was and who made it?

Subject: RE: Origins: Mattie Rag meanings
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 04:20 AM

Refresh. Anyone want to share their thoughts on "Mattie Rag"?

Subject: RE: Origins: Mattie Rag meanings
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 07:13 AM

Anyone still interested in this thread? I thought over it and here is my interpretation of the lyrics: The narrator goes down the mango walk and sees their father getting caught by the guards for chewing on 'rag". He (the narrator, somehow I think it's a boy) hears the father being asked whose rag it is, and the father (possibly due to a suggestion from another man) says it's Mattie's rag.

Subject: RE: Origins: Mattie Rag meanings
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 01:23 AM

Refresh. Anyone want to discuss this?

Subject: RE: Origins: Mattie Rag meanings
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 03:26 AM

Refresh.

Subject: RE: Origins: Mattie Rag meanings
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 28 Jun 11 - 03:02 AM

The Spinners? Which ones? (I checked this site's threads on The Spinners, and there are apparently two groups called that; an American one and a British one.) Interesting version, Ewan.

Subject: RE: Origins: Mattie Rag meanings
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 28 Jun 11 - 02:43 AM

Didn't the Spinners record a version vaguely like the following?

Go down the road one Monday mornin
See de young gal chew de rag
One gal say 'Now, what's your name'
Ah say me name is Matty Rag

Ah ay, Mattie Rag x3
Ah sing sweet song and play guitar

Subject: RE: Origins: Mattie Rag meanings
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 27 Jun 11 - 07:28 AM

It differs slightly from the version found in "Mango Time".

Subject: RE: Origins: Mattie Rag meanings
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 09:52 PM

Louise Bennett's version of "Mattie Rag"

Subject: RE: Origins: Mattie Rag meanings
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 09:50 PM

Yeah- or the piano, or any instrument really. Or read a book.

Subject: RE: Origins: Mattie Rag meanings
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 09:41 PM

who fa = whose

Interesting and unusual! Thanks for the info.

I wish this song were better known, because I consider the advice to 'sing a sweet song and play the guitar' when trouble comes to be an excellent thing.

Subject: RE: Origins: Mattie Rag meanings
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 06:41 AM

Refresh.

Subject: RE: Origins: Mattie Rag meanings
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 26 Jun 11 - 01:11 AM

According to the glossary at the back of the book, "who fa" actually means "whose".

Subject: RE: Origins: Mattie Rag meanings
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 25 Jun 11 - 05:39 PM

Thanks, Rob for the correction! BTW "Mattie" is a common female name which often turns up in Jamaican folk/mento songs.

Subject: RE: Origins: Mattie Rag meanings
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 25 Jun 11 - 11:36 AM

This is getting to be fun.

I searched for the definition of 'pickney,' and it's Jamaican for child.

I guess a mango walk is place where mangoes grow. Here's the first verse of another song:

My brother did-a tell me that you go mango walk,
You go mango walk, you go mango walk,
My brother did-a tell me that you go mango walk
And steal all the number 'leven.

(I bet the number 11's are the best kind.)

Here's my translation thus far:

Mumma, mumma, dem ketch puppa,
Dem ketch 'im dung a mango walk.
If a neva run dem woulda ketch mi tu,
So mi sing sweet song an' play guitar.

Mama, Mama, they caught Papa,
caught him down at the mango orchard.
If I hadn't run, they would have caught me too.
So I'll sing a sweet song and play guitar.
(chorus)
Wai oh, Mattie rag,
Wai oh, Mattie rag.

2. Puppa go down a mango walk
Cause 'im ear wan hog a chaw a piece a rag.
Wen 'im ax 'im a chaw fa rag,
'Im tell 'im sey a Mattie rag.


Papa went down to the mango walk
because ? chew a piece of rag (is rag chewing tobacco?)
When he (Papa) asked him (another male) for a chew of rag
he told him Papa, "Say a Mattie rag."
(Chorus)


[Now the speaker is the singer's mother:]

3. Pickney hear whe yu mumma sey,
Yu betta 'tap go mango walk.
If yu neva run dem woulda ketch yu tu,
So sing sweet song an' play guitar

Child, hear what your mother says.
You better stop going to the mango walk.
If you hadn't run, they would have caught you.
So sing a sweet song and play guitar.

Subject: RE: Origins: Mattie Rag meanings
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 25 Jun 11 - 09:13 AM

That phrase sounds to me as if it ought to be in the past tense:

"If I hadn't run, they would have caught me too". Jamaicans I worked with years ago would often use a present tense phrasing with just the addition of a modal verb with an "a" appended ("coulda", "woulda", "shoulda") to indicate past tense.

Subject: RE: Origins: Mattie Rag meanings
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 25 Jun 11 - 08:41 AM

"If I never run they woulda catch me too"- literal translation, "If I don't run they will catch me too", perhaps the narrator is stealing mangoes?

Subject: RE: Origins: Mattie Rag meanings
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 25 Jun 11 - 08:35 AM

Finally, an answer! Leeneia, I think Mattie is a person rather than a brand of tobacco.
Maybe the editors were trying to represent Jamaican dialect, spelling the words in their own way. There are various ways of spelling the same words, depending on the editor's choice. "Ketch' - I thought I'd read that word in a different context, thanks for reminding me that it is a type of boat. Your theory about tobacco is a good one.

Subject: RE: Origins: Mattie Rag meanings
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 25 Jun 11 - 08:25 AM

It baffles me, Morwen, but the words 'chaw' and 'rag' make me think it's about chewing tobacco. Maybe there's some illegal substance that resembles chewing tobacco and papa got caught chawing it.

The words stirred a dim memory in me of an announcer on a cigarette ad saying the words 'finest rag tobacco.' I googled 'rag tobacco,' and discovered that 'cut rag tobacco' is a standard phrase in the tobacco business.

Mattie could be a brand name or it could be the seller's name.

In my opinion the editors went overboard with precious spellings. Why tu for too? Sey for say? Fa is probably of. If they really think catch has to have a short e in it, they could spell it cetch, rather than ketch, which is a kind of boat.

Reading it aloud helps, but I think local knowledge is also needed.

Subject: RE: Origins: Mattie Rag meaning
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 25 Jun 11 - 03:00 AM

BTW, the above version of "Mattie Rag" comes from the song collection "Mango Time: Folk Songs of Jamaica" collected by Noel Dexter and Godfrey Taylor, published by Ian Randle Publishers in 2007.

Subject: ADD: Mattie Rag
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 10:34 PM

MATTIE RAG (Jamaican Mento)

1.
Mumma, mumma, dem ketch puppa,
Dem ketch 'im dung a mango walk.
If a neva run dem woulda ketch mi tu,
So mi sing sweet song an' play guitar.

(chorus)
Wai oh, Mattie rag,
Wai oh, Mattie rag.

2. Puppa go down a mango walk
Cause 'im ear wan hog a chaw a piece a rag.
Wen 'im ax 'im a chaw fa rag,
'Im tell 'im sey a Mattie rag.
(Chorus)
3. Pickney hear whe yu mumma sey,
Yu betta 'tap go mango walk.
If yu neva run dem woulda ketch yu tu,
So sing sweet song an' play guitar.
(Chorus)

My actual question is, does anyone know what this song may mean? I know it is dialect, but would it mean anything or is it just a nonsense song? The best thing I can think of is that the singer sees their father in a mango orchard talking about a woman named Mattiem and the father was caught in the mango orchard.