Do purists really exist?

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: theleveller
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 04:31 AM

"Many use words to sing from" - Never used to be the case, that has crept in over the years, to now becoming accepted as being the norm. Again if you are going to sing in public have the decency to actually learn your material. or alternatively practise using wordsor printed material , so that like an actor you canm do a professional performance"

It's this sort of self-righteous, dogmatic attitude that drives people away from performing folk music. Certainly you should practice and try to attain the best performance you can, but having the words in front of you in case of a 'senior moment' can only be of benefit to the audience and shouldn't detract from the delivery. That's why every orchestra in the world and most professional choirs have the score in front of them. When I go to watch The Sixteen - probably the most sublime singing ensemble I've ever heard - they always sing from the score; to not do so would be considered totally unprofessional.


But, hey, Observer, you set out your list of rules and the rest of us can tell you, and all the other purists, where to stick them.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 04:43 AM

"It's this sort of self-righteous, dogmatic attitude that drives people away from performing folk music."
Fraid not - the scene diminished to nothing when the choice of what you heard when you went to a folk club was removed
THere were a long series of articles in 'Folk Review' which predicted the decline fairly accurately
What can possibly be "dogmatic" about expecting to hear folk songs reasonably well sung - it is really beyond me and I've yet to see anybody explain it

It is insulting to an art form to suggest it should not be carried out well
Little wonder that Folk has never been taken seriously by more than a tiny handful of devotees
Even pop fans make demands on their idols = what is wrong with ours that so many denigrate it with an "anything goes" attitude ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 05:13 AM

Jim, this has been discussed ad nauseum. People will never agree on a definition of folk music so your insistence that your definition is the only one of any merit will always cause controversy. Our folk club was and still is well attended and a typical singers night will see a majority of songs belonging to your definition but will also contain a small number that you would not regard as folk. It is far from the 'anything goes' definition that you seem to think is prevalent but it is not rigidly stuck in the past either.

You seem to have cause and effect confused when you say that folk clubs started to decline when they started to deviate from your view. It was the other way round. Folk clubs started to decline well before the introduction of a more relaxed regime. The definition became more flexible to try and breathe a bit of life into a dying club scene. Sometimes it worked. Sometimes it didn't. C'est la vie.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 05:19 AM

declining folk clubs are a result of anumber of different factors, soory whats dogmatic about asking people to practise and try and do a good job. i have changed my opinion and am prepared to accept people reading words... if they have practised

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 05:22 AM

"Certainly you should practice and try to attain the best performance you can, but having the words in front of you in case of a 'senior moment' can only be of benefit to the audience and shouldn't detract from the delivery."

Really fed up with this "senior moment" crap. But of course in this part of the above ".... having the words in front of you in case of a 'senior moment' can only be of benefit to the audience and shouldn't detract from the delivery." - The SHOULDN'T being the operative word. The reality is however it does detract and detract massively from the delivery compared to someone who has:

A - Learned the song
B - Sings it in key
C - Has worked out the phrasing of the song to deliver it in accordance with their interpretation of it

None of that can be done whilst hesitatingly reading the words while trying to sing them.

If you are seriously trying to equate someone singing a folk song to a group of people singing in a choir, or playing in an orchestra then I am sorry you are knowingly comparing apples to oranges as the latter two disciplines are NOT solo performances but multi-part collaborative pieces where those involved are singing and playing under direction that requires the highest discipline and perfect timing. The Score you see in their hands let's those holding them know what the others are doing and tells them when they should come in, something you do not need if you are performing on your own.

By the way someone sat there in public attempting to play and sing something that they haven't bothered to learn in a halting and hesitant manner, intermittently apologising while they stop to scroll their tablet - would not under any circumstance count as any sort of performance.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 05:26 AM

"People will never agree on a definition of folk music s"
Nence the shambles of the club scene
There is a well documented definition - the fact that a handful of revisionists have decided to redefine it is immaterial - folk song is what it always has been
If we can't be arsed to either accept that definition or come up with one that we can all agree with we may as well leave it to rot, as it is doing
I told you why I believe it started to decline and when - nothing to do with "my view"
We knew what folk song was then - go look at the Topic catalogue - go and look at Roud's list before he decided to wander off in another direction
Folk song is as well documented as any other musical form; better than most - if we all want to have our own private definition we really are wasting our time - and I and many like me have wasted our lives
Jim

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 05:26 AM

"People will never agree on a definition of folk music s"
Nence the shambles of the club scene
There is a well documented definition - the fact that a handful of revisionists have decided to redefine it is immaterial - folk song is what it always has been
If we can't be arsed to either accept that definition or come up with one that we can all agree with we may as well leave it to rot, as it is doing
I told you why I believe it started to decline and when - nothing to do with "my view"
We knew what folk song was then - go look at the Topic catalogue - go and look at Roud's list before he decided to wander off in another direction
Folk song is as well documented as any other musical form; better than most - if we all want to have our own private definition we really are wasting our time - and I and many like me have wasted our lives
Jim

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 05:28 AM

Changes and the way things are going with "Folk"? Clubs are in decline, "House Concerts" and "Village Hall Concerts" are on the rise. The one thing that you have strict control over in the latter two is IF you do have floor singers at all the person hosting the event can select who performs.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 05:28 AM

I take it this is the sort of thing Jim doesn't believe exists?

The World's Room, Edinburgh

It's good but it's hardly unique. Just happens to be the easiest for me to get to.

Waiting for Jim to chime in with reasons why it can't exist, or must be really horrible because he had a bad time at some venue in Birmingham 40 years ago.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 05:49 AM

I told you why I believe it started to decline and when - nothing to do with "my view"

Yes it is Jim. You told us what you believe. Which is precisely your view means. I, and many others, disagree with that view but, again, that is only opinion. The only fact that can be verified is that there are not as many folk clubs as there used to be. There are a number of theories as to why that is but until someone can verify one as true that is all they are. Theories.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 06:01 AM

"Yes it is Jim. You told us what you believe. "
No it isn't Dave - I've told you that the songs we always knew as folk were not mine - they are the ones documented as such - ir really is nothing to do with my views or tastes
If you have an alternative feel free to offer it, but please do not belittle it by suggesting the one I hold is "mine"
All "opinions" need to be based on something - I've told you what mine is - Child Sharp - and over a century of research, what are yours based on ?
The revival was built on the material collected by the BBC in the 1950s... what 'the folk' sang and almost certainly made
Nowadays, the club scene appears to be based on whatever takes the fancy of whoever participates - I find that insulting
I don't know who is lkely to turn up to hear centuries old pop songs that lived for a short time and then were forgotten - but they are now being given Roud numbers
This is nonsense
I have some idea of your political views and I assume that someone who calls himself "The Leveller" holds similar ones
Where does "The Voice of the People" figure in all this - and where does the hostility which often arises when that voice is discussed come from?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 06:12 AM

Jim. Your exact phrase is 'I told you what I believe'. That indicates it is your view or opinion. If that is not what you meant please tell me what you really did mean.

My alternative view of why folk clubs declined is that the massive increase of them in the 50s and 60s could not be sustained. The bubble burst. They fell out of favour, as did 60s music and bell bottomed trousers. These things are all cyclical. Nothing is new. They all come and go as does everything else and trying to hold on to what happened in the past is pointless.

And please note that I am not saying folk music is out of favour. It isn't. It is just the type of folk club that you are referring to has had its day.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 06:47 AM

" That indicates it is your view or opinion. "
No Dave - I have a long-held consensus and I have the evidence to back up that consensus - what can you offer in return ?

"The bubble burst. "
The bubble burst when the folk boom ended an the music industry lost interest
After that, the folk scene gathered its forces and established itself with its own labels, a plethora of magazines and new writings
It continued until the clubs moved away from folk song and opted for bums on seats
You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but unless to can substantiate that opinion with facts it remains only your opinion

Try this
I have just met you on line and I asked you to describe this folk song I keep hearing about - how would you go about it, or where would you point me to to read the subject up
Feel free to ask me the same question, of course

"It is just the type of folk club that you are referring to has had its day."
So a music that has survived for centuries has "had its day" because a rapidly diminishing bunch of ageing2 folkies no longer find it interesting - how sad (if I for one minute accepted it)
In the interview I quoted from above MacColl, I bridled somewhat when MacColl said
"I used to think that folk song would survive forever, but I have come to believe that it will only die if it falls into the hands of people who don't like it or understand it"
It seems he might have hit the nail squarely on the head

Jim

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 06:53 AM

"I used to think that folk song would survive forever, but I have come to believe that it will only die if it falls into the hands of people who don't like it or understand it"
It seems he might have hit the nail squarely on the head"
   Gentlemen please ouch ! (fair play to you) ;)
Right what's the next topic.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 07:03 AM

"I take it this is the sort of thing Jim doesn't believe exists?"
Why should I not believe it exists or that the Ballad Workshop exists in Glasgow , or I can't go to The Musical Traditions in London and hear a good night of folk sons well sung....
Are yuio suggesting that the sme proliferates throughout Britain or that we should all nip up to Edinburgh or Glasgow or London whenever we fancy a good folk song ?

What is being argued for here is exactly the opposite Jack, that what happens in these venues "has had its day" in the club scene and no longer has any relevance to modern life
Does that not impact on you in any way ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 07:03 AM

So a music that has survived for centuries has "had its day" because a rapidly diminishing bunch of ageing2 folkies no longer find it interesting

Jim, you are being obtuse. Whether that is purposely or otherwise is irrelevant but it is quite simple to look back at my post where I say

"And please note that I am not saying folk music is out of favour. It isn't. It is just the type of folk club that you are referring to has had its day."

Where in that statement do I say that the music has had its day?

You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but unless to can substantiate that opinion with facts it remains only your opinion

As does yours, Jim. You have come up with no proof whatsoever. Restating your opinion over and over again does not constitute proof.

An interesting coincidence just cropped up. A good friend of mine and stalwart of our folk club stars in this short film. It is a bit heavy but well worth 13.5 minutes to see what can happen when you believe that yours is the only truth.

Enjoy

A Nick Short film.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 07:46 AM

"As does yours, Jim. You have come up with no proof whatsoever.
I've told you where it was documented - I can probably dig out the articles if you really don't believe me
You wouldn't be the first one to call me a liar on this thread - I respect your, it doesn't concern me a bit what the other feller thinks of me, what you do matters

"Where in that statement do I say that the music has had its day?"
" It isn't. It is just the type of folk club that you are referring to has had its day."
You appear to be saying that the folk song I envisions is solely my own invention and that there is so room for it on the present scene
If that's not what you are saying, what exactly are you saying ?
Where can we go to here folk songs if it isn't in a folk club?
If what goes on at today;'s clubs has nothing to do wwith folk song why is that not damaging folk song beyond repair

I asked you a question and I would be very much obliged if you answered it
I haven't the faintest idea what relevance your film has to do with this
Jim

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 07:54 AM

Another one Jim doesn't believe exists:

FB group for Glasgow Ballad Workshop

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 07:59 AM

I asked first, Jim.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 06:12 AM

Jim. Your exact phrase is 'I told you what I believe'. That indicates it is your view or opinion. If that is not what you meant please tell me what you really did mean.

You never addressed that point but I am happy to address yours. I said absolutely nothing like the folk song I (you) envisions is solely my own invention and that there is so room for it on the present scene My exact phrase, for the second time, was "And please note that I am not saying folk music is out of favour. It isn't. It is just the type of folk club that you are referring to has had its day."

How you get your interpretation out of those words is beyond me I'm afraid.

And, yes, please dig out any proof you have that folk clubs started to decline because they relaxed the rules on what music could be performed. I would be very interested to see actual proof, not your opinion or someone else's conclusion, but solid evidence please.

The film was, just as I said, an interesting coincidence. It does not apply specifically to this thread but to all discussions where anyone believes that their 'way' is better than anyone else's.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 08:10 AM

"It isn't. It is just the type of folk club that you are referring to has had its day.""
I envision a folk club where people can go and hear folk songs reasonably well performed - nothing more
If that is out of date than we no longer have a place to go to hear folk song - or to draw people into listening to folk songs
"their 'way " again Dave - now becoming insulting - it's not "my way" - it's the way is was
You have yet to answer my question so I'll repeat it

"I have just met you on line and I asked you to describe this folk song I keep hearing about - how would you go about it, or where would you point me to to read the subject up
Feel free to ask me the same question, of course"
Put simply, what do you mean by "folk song"?

"Another one Jim doesn't believe exists:"
Either we cross-posted (though I have had the same thing before) or you are just bening bloody-mindedly obtuse Jack

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 08:21 AM

You still have not answered my question either, Jim. What did you mean by 'I told you what I believe'. To me that indicates that it is your view, not fact. Unless your belief comes from facts that you, as yet, have not given us.

But, yet again, I will address your point. If someone asked me what folk song was I would say I cannot describe it in words alone and give them a couple of songs that I perform. Or invite them to Swinton folk club to listen :-)

And there is nothing at all insulting in what I said. You asked what relevance the film had. I said it demonstrates what happens when any single person or group insists that their way is the only right way. Nothing whatsoever to do with folk clubs or you. You are either looking for insults where non exist or tilting at straw men.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 08:30 AM

I envision a folk club where people can go and hear folk songs reasonably well performed

People can still go to folk clubs to hear 'folk songs reasonably well performed'. They can also go to concert halls, village halls, community centres, festivals, pubs, house parties, and any number of venues where they can hear the same. Some folk clubs did, rightly or wrongly, generate a poor image. It is the type of folk club that perpetuated that image that has, quite rightly, had its day.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 08:51 AM

I'm not understanding the heat here. I personally don't think there is anything to worry about. It's in good hands there is peer review to keep it in check, and excellent tutalidge.
Everyone knows how change and innovation works in these disciplines and i've not noticed decline in fact quite the opposite.
       I would imagine the demographic here is not really the target audience for the short vid posted above. That sort of thing aimed at a younger audience I would imagine.Hopefully at our age those type of lessons are learned already.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 09:01 AM

What you described are unspecified concerts where anything goes on
A far cry from venues which were set up to listen to and perform folk song
There is no guarantee of hearing a folk song at any of those venues - nor can there be expected to be
Festivals are for the already initiated and they tend to be somewhat "in" affairs - and even they are disappearing - go count the number of major festivals that no longer take place

If you van't describe a folk song I'm afraid that it means you don't know what one is yourself - I think that makes my point perfectly
I went to Swinton many years ago and listened to folk songs - from the sound of it, I am no longer guaranteed to be able to do that now

"Some folk clubs did, rightly or wrongly, generate a poor image"
I can't remember any that presented a poorer one than the one you describe - one where I'm neither guaranteed folk songs or a reasonable standard or, in some cases, haven't even bothered learning them
Jim

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,patriot
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 09:03 AM

there are lots of people- some on this thread, who in the context of folk clubs & suchlike, look down their nose at any material, however well- performed, which does not conform to their opinion of what 'folk'music is.

these people see themselves as standing guard over the 'purity'; of the music,

Conclusion- Purists DO exist and you don't have to look far to find them       Q.E.D.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 09:17 AM

If you van't describe a folk song I'm afraid that it means you don't know what one is yourself

I cannot describe nuclear fission but I know what the effect can be. I do know what I believe to be a folk song and you can look me up performing some at Swinton if you like. It may not agree with your definition but it is the best I can do. I am more than happy to accept other peoples definitions while fully understanding that no single one of them is the full picture. Can you say the same?

I can't remember any that presented a poorer one than the one you describe - one where I'm neither guaranteed folk songs or a reasonable standard or, in some cases, haven't even bothered learning them

I have never described a folk club let alone suggested that people performing should not learn their songs. The only one I mentioned was Swinton. If you visited there, chances are we met. I was doorman and oft times MC from the offset and only stopped doing so some 5 years back. It has always had the same ethos so, if you enjoyed it then, you still will.

Straw man once again, Jim.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 09:22 AM

There is no guarantee of hearing a folk song at any of those venues - nor can there be expected to be

Regardless of the venue, if I go to an event that advertises a folk artist I can guarantee that I will hear folk songs. My point is that folk clubs are not the exclusive custodians of folk music.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 09:34 AM

I've just realised how arrogant your posting is Dave
Sorry, we no longer do folk songs in folk clubs - piss off to the village hall and see if they're doing them
Talk about a hostile takeover
I was here not long after the beginning - I've invested best part of my life in understanding and proliferating folk songs - I helped run workshops, sett up clubs, been part of the making of a dozen albums and sas many radio programmes, was part of establishing the Archive in The British Library and have ammassed one of the largest private arcives in these Islands - I've have given around thirty lectures on the subject (with Pat), and now I am told I have to vacate the scene I helped set up to people who can't even describe the folk song they claim to peddle
That is arrogance to the utmost degree

Patriot
Nothing here has anything to do with "purity" - please have the good manners to read what is written
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 09:35 AM

By the way P - Dave has made my point perfectly - if I want to here folk songgs I ahve to go at the local village hall and hope they are putting them on
Sheesh......!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 09:35 AM

By the way P - Dave has made my point perfectly - if I want to here folk songgs I ahve to go at the local village hall and hope they are putting them on
Sheesh......!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 09:49 AM

Just trolling by...

From: Bee-dubya-ell

Is a purist someone who plays a pur?

Purtiful

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 09:55 AM

I have said none of what you have taken apparent offense at, Jim. Please feel free to link where I have said anything remotely like anything in your rant against my so called 'arrogance'. I suspect that you are riled at something that does not exist. Let's look at the facts rather than the misinterpretations.

1. There are fewer folk clubs than there used to be. You believe that this is due to them relaxing the rules but have provided no facts to back this up. I believe there are fewer because things have moved on.

2. Because things have moved we can now get good quality folk music at a host more venues than the traditional style folk club. They exist side by side and long may that situation continue.

3. In my experience, which is nowhere near as extensive as yours but may be more up to date, there is good quality folk music available in regular folk clubs across the country. My in depth experience is with one club in the north west of England but when I used to travel a lot I found good clubs from Bracknell to Newcastle and Cambridge to Dudley with a lot of places in between. When selecting hotels my first criterion was a nearby folk club!

4. Nowhere has anyone asked you to vacate anything. That is yet another straw man.

I can only suggest that you go back and read my postings to this thread with an objective eye rather than a hostile attitude. If you cannot do that, please stop accusing me of saying things that I have not even suggested.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 10:04 AM

THings have not moved on Dave - the clubs have been taken over by people who are not prepared to put folk songs on - that is not moving on
How dare you tell me to go somewhere else to listen to folk songs ?

I don't know fully what may or may not be happening across the country but if your arguments here are representative, I fear the worst
I have not misrepresented anything you said, I have read it carefully with growing horror and have replied to it as best I can

If you are not prepared to put on folk songs at folk clubs you are guilty of conning people - it really is as simple as that.
You are also damaging folk song, probably irreparably
Sadly
Jim

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 10:19 AM

If you are not prepared to put on folk songs at folk clubs you are guilty of conning people

I don't know how many ways I can say this, Jim. There is still a wealth of high quality folk music being performed in folk clubs across the country, including the one I helped to run for 35 years.

But don't take my word for it. Take a look here - Folk Clubs

The relevant passage is

The number of clubs began to decline in the 1980s, in the face of changing musical and social trends. In London Les Cousins in Greek Street, where John Renbourn often played, and The Scots Hoose in Cambridge Circus, were both casualties. The Singers Club (George IV, Lincoln's Inn) closed its doors in 1993.

The decline began to stabilise in the mid-1990s with the resurgence of interest in folk music and there are now over 160 folk clubs in the United Kingdom, including many that can trace their origins back to the 1950s including The Bridge Folk Club in Newcastle (previously called the Folk Song and Ballad club) claims to the oldest club still in existence in its original venue (1953). In Edinburgh, Sandy Bell's club in Forest Hill has been running since the late 1960s. In London, the Troubadour at Earl's Court, where Bob Dylan, Paul Simon, Sandy Denny and Martin Carthy sang, became a poetry club in the 1990s, but is now a folk club again.

The nature of surviving folk clubs has also changed significantly, many larger clubs use PA systems, opening the door to use of electric instruments, although drums and full electric line-ups remain rare. The mix of music often includes American roots music, blues, British folk rock, and world music as well as traditional British folk music. From 2000 the BBC Radio 2 folk awards have included an award for the best folk club.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 10:45 AM

"In Edinburgh, Sandy Bell's club in Forest Hill has been running since the late 1960s".
That's "Wikipedia" for you - when was "Sandy Bell's" in Edinburgh ever a "club" of any sort ? If a ludicrous statement like that is left to stand unchallenged, I see no reason to lend any credence to anything else in that article.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 10:50 AM

Then I can only suggest that you put in an amendment Kenny. I have only been to Sandy Bells once and on the night I was there it had all the traits of what I saw at the White Lion on most singers nights. It was not in a private room but an organiser went round the room asking if people wanted to perform and the music I heard was, in that main, traditional folk. I am pleased to say I sang but there were so many there I only got chance to do one!

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 11:00 AM

"There is still a wealth of high quality folk music being performed in folk clubs across the country, including the one I helped to run for 35 years."
The evidence it to the contrary Dave - certainly that being presented here
Your list of village halls and peivate gatherings is fairly indicative that I can't go to folk clubs for folk songs
I certainly have no intention of taking an anonymous Wiki article which lumps together Renborn, Dylan, Les Cousins and The Singers Club as representing the club scene   
I know when the scene brean to decline from personal experience to first hearing folk songs sung badly to when you could come away from an evening without hearing anything resembling a folk song
I'm not alone in this - others here have had experiences similar to mine - notably Observer
I know many others who have had the same experience
The scene, at its best, was made up of clubs where unpaid residents were capable of taking an evening totally independent of the starts, cultural democracy at is highest -m now I have to go to a local village hall and hope somebody knows what a a folk song - you appear not to
It's always seemed to me that when you become involved in folk-song (or any artistic form) you commit yourself to your subject
Folk song is, to me more important than most because it hasn't been treated with much respect by the arts Establishment
When the scene itself drops the ball, that becomes a catastrophe
Jim

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 11:00 AM

"There is still a wealth of high quality folk music being performed in folk clubs across the country, including the one I helped to run for 35 years."
The evidence it to the contrary Dave - certainly that being presented here
Your list of village halls and peivate gatherings is fairly indicative that I can't go to folk clubs for folk songs
I certainly have no intention of taking an anonymous Wiki article which lumps together Renborn, Dylan, Les Cousins and The Singers Club as representing the club scene   
I know when the scene brean to decline from personal experience to first hearing folk songs sung badly to when you could come away from an evening without hearing anything resembling a folk song
I'm not alone in this - others here have had experiences similar to mine - notably Observer
I know many others who have had the same experience
The scene, at its best, was made up of clubs where unpaid residents were capable of taking an evening totally independent of the starts, cultural democracy at is highest -m now I have to go to a local village hall and hope somebody knows what a a folk song - you appear not to
It's always seemed to me that when you become involved in folk-song (or any artistic form) you commit yourself to your subject
Folk song is, to me more important than most because it hasn't been treated with much respect by the arts Establishment
When the scene itself drops the ball, that becomes a catastrophe
Jim

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 11:16 AM

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,Observer - PM
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 05:28 AM

Changes and the way things are going with "Folk"? Clubs are in decline, "House Concerts" and "Village Hall Concerts" are on the rise. The one thing that you have strict control over in the latter two is IF you do have floor singers at all the person hosting the event can select who performs."
and that is how it still is at guestbooking folk clubs in my experience. and how it was back in guest booking folk clubsin the past , if you were not good enough you did not get on

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 11:17 AM

Sandy Bell's - Singers nights? I've only ever heard tunes sessions played there.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 11:38 AM

jim ,is right it is important to encourage people to perform and improve their performances,
but selecting singers on the basis of what they sing is something different, personally i do not want to hear buddy holly songs, however the last person i heard do them was Andy Caven, who was a practised competent good performer.
I booked him at the folk club i ran because the audience asked for him, i also booked nic jones john and julia clifford steve turnerjohn and sue kirkpatrick, the club did not have a massive fall off in attendance because i once booked andy caven

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 11:43 AM

oh i dunno. theres always been a fair bit of shite around. in fact folk on bbc4 is a a bit of turn off for me. i prefer real shite, like you get in folk clubs.

who needs record company folk.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,21st Century Primitive
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 11:52 AM

Jim!

Having the opportunity to attend folk concerts at a variety of venues is a good thing. Don’t knock it.

And if Dave the Gnome is irreparably damaging folk I’ll eat my hat. He may be a mighty force, but I doubt the Great Destroyer is from Swinton.

I know why folk clubs declined. It’s because of my generation- the punk generation. We didn’t come along to keep the flame that your generation had lit alive. We got caught up doing other stuff. Meanwhile, there are far more people far younger than me playing traditional music than there are people of my generation, but for many of them, the standard-issue folk club isn’t where they chose to do it. That’s ok. Different generations do things different ways.

Now then. This business of knowing what a folk song sounds like. I’m going to call bullshit on that. Some jolly romp from the Coppers’ Songbook sounds nothing like a Scottish big ballad sounds nothing like piedmont blues sounds nothing like Bulgarian open voice singing sounds nothing like Finnish joik. As we know, folk song does not have a sound but a process...

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,21st Century Primitive
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 12:01 PM

Saw these two in a room above a pub in Todmorden. Not a folk club and they retain LG don’t claim to be folk. Excellent stuff nonetheless.

Meg Baird and Mary Lattimore - Fair Annie

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 12:02 PM

retain LG? WTF? Try ‘certainly’!!

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 12:18 PM

"Having the opportunity to attend folk concerts at a variety of venues is a good thing. Don’t knock it."
I don't and I never have, but they should not be where I have to go to here decently sung folk song
Punk had nothing to do with the decline of folk song (actually, folk songs haven't declined, they exist in their many thousands in recordings and song collections - hopefully for future generations to benefit from what this one appears to have discarded)
What has declined is the opportunity to hear them (unless you live in Edinburgh, Glasgow or Swinton, it would appear)
As far as recognising folk when you hear it - of course different cultures produce different sounds - if you cast your net wide enough, you learn to recognise the genuine article in any culture once you familiarise yourself with it
Nevertheless, there is a thread which goes though manty that are related
In The Song Carriers, Macol starts by taking a recording of an Azerbaijani Bard and playing it into Oaddy Tunney's singing - a remarkable comarison
He then goes on to a recording of a Canto Hondo singer from Spain and runs it into Maggie Barry, the Irish Street singer - amazing similarities of style

Ewan and Peggy once say Joe Haney down and played him a selection of folk and non folk foreign recordings - Joe identified most of the traditional ones - brothers in their respective cultures
Our late friend and neighbour, Tommy McCarthy, came home from Bulgaria full of the similarities of what he had heard from musicians there

I'm not taking a pop at what he does, far from it - I just find what he is telling me extremely upsetting
I now live in Ireland and have watched the tradition move on from what I believed to be its last legs, to one with a thriving future
THat didn't just happen; it was worked for by dedicated individuals who recognised what was happening and turned it around
If I didn't believe that could happen in the U.K. I really wouldn't be arsed arguing
If something isn't done soon the scene will end up as passive recipients of what remainsof our folk song rather than participants of it
Concerts and festivals should b an added bonus, not objects in themselves
Our music was once the property of unpaid, unprofessional performers and song-makers - concerts are for passive observers
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 12:18 PM

what is LG? Sorry I am dense and have never been to a folk club.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 12:51 PM

Dave-ja vu.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 01:12 PM

We all knew 'Ewan & Peggy' would get in on it eventually!

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 01:55 PM

600