Do purists really exist?

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 06:53 AM

"I didn't write the bit you put in quote"
My apologies - cnfused by the italics
I always try to use quotation marks - may miss them occasionally
Don't understand the rest, but I;'m sure you won't or can't clarify it
I insult nobody - I respond to what they say strongly maybe, but that' it
You have twice misrepresented what I believe - about my not believing what is happening in Glasgow and Edinburgh - I see no apology for doing so, which leads me to believe that your misinterpretation was deliberate
"I take it this is the sort of thing Jim doesn't believe exists?"

Sorry Dave
I did miss your offer
In the light of what is beig argued for here, what exactly would a visit to a couple of clubs in Yorkshire prove (as much as I am sure I would enjoy the visit, and the clubs (I love the area anyway)?
I have no doubt good, dedicated clubs still exist - I have named some myself
As with Edinburgh and Glasgow a good healthy folk scene cannot include having to nip onto a plane or train to visit such places
The scene you and others paint is not a healthy one - it appears to be dying
It can't sustain a solid base for its archives - the EFDSS one is non existent, The BL is poor and is too impoverished to expand - the best of the lot is in Scotland...
Two of us, me and Terry Yarnell have a large archive of British and Irish traditional recordings we can't find a home for in Britain so we have to look elsewhere
A healthy folk scene that can be guaranteed a future has to have a foundation based on the music - none exists
Any future has to depend on us being able to discuss our music - as Andy intimated, any attempts to discuss the definition of folk son sinks in flames before it is started - that is a sick joke
I'm sick and tired of the small mindedness, the jealousy towards dead performers, the personal nastiness (even towards terms such as purist) and the total inability to discuss this subject seriously and intelligently
The work has been long done to push the Traditional arts a stage further yet it cannot be availed of because of this hostile barrier   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do puriis both sts really exist?
From: GUEST,patriot
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 06:17 AM

It was a generous offer from Dave to you Jim Carroll and your self-expressed ignorance of it is both extremely rude and an indication of how much attention you pay to the comments and opinions of other contributors.
You spend your days insulting perfectly reasonable people with perfectly reasonable and constructive views while NOT READING what they have said!

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 05:56 AM

"Purist means bore from my experience."
Idiots who use meaningless terms as invective are idiots in my experience Jack
People who opt for hit-and-run invective rather than argument ate little more than trolls
Not a case of "real ale" - just serving ale does the trick
You are as dishonest as the most dishonest

I didn't write the bit you put in quotes. And unlike you I make it VERY clear what I'm quoting (to any well-intentioned reader, that is - can't do much about bigoted liars determined to misread plainly obvious statements in the most paranoic and malicious way imaginable).

You've now done the same completely blatant sort of misinterpretation twice in 24 hours, once to Dave and now to me.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 05:53 AM

Just up a bit, Jim.

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 03:00 PM

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 05:44 AM

"So, I take it you will not take me up on the offer then, Jim?"
What was your offer Dave - missed it in the melee
Jim

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 05:42 AM

"Purist means bore from my experience."
Idiots who use meaningless terms as invective are idiots in my experience Jack
People who opt for hit-and-run invective rather than argument ate little more than trolls
Not a case of "real ale" - just serving ale does the trick
You are as dishonest as the most dishonest
Pity
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 05:16 AM

So, I take it you will not take me up on the offer then, Jim?

Well, you can take a horse to water...

BTW - exactly how do you describe the 'scene'? I need to know if I am to confirm or deny it!

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,21st Century Primitive
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 05:03 AM

A word on that there Ewan McColl, as his name has come up in this thread.

I’m not particularly interested in the ins and outs of the dog’s bollocks about the minutiae (sp?) of his life and so on, but I do know this. He was one of the best songwriters these islands have ever produced. Some of the more narrowly political songs may have dated - but that’s ok, they were capturing and responding to a moment in time - but anyone capable of creating songs like ‘The Father’s Song’, ‘The Manchester Rambler’ and ‘Dirty Old Town’ has fully earned their place in musical history.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 04:52 AM

Purist means bore from my experience.

Sad buggers who won't go in a pub unless they serve "real" ale, waffle on about a 1954 definition of an abstract form of entertainment and reckon the only words to Sir Patrick Spence that count are the ones they first heard, normally on their mother's knee (allegedly).

Would you care to put a name and a face to such a person?

People who get off on having entirely imaginary enemies are a pain in the arse.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 04:49 AM

""What is folk music?" :-)"
Good luck with they=t one Andy ! :-)
Jim

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Andy7
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 04:40 AM

Haha, you've beaten me into submission, Jim!

I'm off out of here now, to start up a new thread entitled "What is folk music?" :-)

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 04:29 AM

"just in case my interpretation of the song was historically inaccurate"
Do you have friends who insist on that sort of thing Andy - I've never known anybody who did
I find dishonest comments like that a confirmation of my arguments
No-one in my half century's involvement in folk song has ever demaned either historical or stylistic "accuracy" in folk song - both would be an impossible objective anyway - theer is no such thing as "historical accuracy"
Why make something up like that ?

This is a strange and extremely depressing argument
On the one hand, Dick has insisted that I have no right to comment on the scene because I don't go to enough of them; on the other; on the other, people, particularly Dave says that the scene is exactly as I describe and I have no right to expect anything else becuse it "has moved on".

I did a tour around what's available on line (including some that have been recommended to me) and found little, if anything that resembles a healthy folk scene - a lot of the writers of insipid songs, largely over-accompanied enough to make the words unfollowable and invariable, sung in a stange, Mid-Atlantic accent
A few exceptions, but not enough to make me believe things are going to improve in the near future

I no longer live in Britain and I know I can look forward to a folk scene that with continue to thrive
I can listen to good traditional music and song, well excecuted, on the media any night of the week - mainly played by new musicians in their late teens and twenties (singing has a little way to go yet, but there are signs that it's getting there)
This one-street town in the west has six nights of live traditional music - some nights have a couple of sessions going at the same time.
That in itself is a leap forward, usually the number of nights reduce to three after the visitors have stopped coming

What upsets me most about all this (and the animosity and dishonesty it arouses) is, it doesn't effect me personally - our collection has found a welcoming home which will guarantee that, long after we've turned up our toes, people will be able to listen to Walter Pardon and Harry Cox and Sam Larner, the Stewarts, The Travellers.... and many others we met or were given recordings of, singing and talking about their love of folk song proper
It's just a pity that those recordings will be housed in Limerick rather than London as the UK has no home for what they have to say and sing - and the clubs are apparently not interested anyway

MacColl was touched on again here, but thankfully not to the length of brutality he usually receives
   
I'd just like to restate my position on MacColl
I loved his singing _ I still do after half a century of listening to it
That has nothing to do with why I'm happy to raise his name and ideas whenever I have the opportunity - that's my personal taste - I can still get most of the albums he recorded over his long career - in the shops in newly issued anthologies or sing albums or on the Net, which say much about how he is still regarded outside the narrow, backbiting sonfines of the revival

MacColl thought folk song so important that he devoted a large part of his life trying to help and encourage other singers
The work he and The Critics Group did on the theory and practice of folk singing is totally unparalleled - the voice, singing and relaxation exercises, the evenings of analysis and suggestion on how to improve styles and understanding, the discussions on the cultural and historical importance of song..... a gold mine, recorded at length and ready to be worked.
Unfortunately, there is no home for that in a U.K. that could very much do with a firm kick up the arse of the culture and Voice of THe People is to survive for future generations to take as much pleasure from it as we did.

I once wrote a somewhat hostilely received aticle entitled "Where Have all the Folk Songs Gone" for 'The Living Tradition'
I have my answer - they got lost somewhere along the way and didn't go anywhere much
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 04:28 AM

I like the one that begins 'Iiiiiitttsss Chriiiissstttmaaaaasss' better :-)

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Andy7
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 04:24 AM

Those are fair points.

My post was meant to be a lighthearted one! Because the mood of this discussion has been rather too dark at times; we should all be able to hold differing views, and have a lively discussion, without being negative/aggressive towards the views of others.

Okay, then ... I'll have a bash at that traditional folk song after all ... "The moon is up, the spirit's bright, we're here tonight, and that's enough, simply having ..."

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 04:04 AM

Andy you do not seem to understand what i am saying,1. there are a number of contributory reasons for folk clubs closing ,2 you do not seem to understand Iam only asking that people to try to do their best perfomance which means respect for the audience practising, if i was present at the same club as you i would not offer any opinion unless you asked me, i certainly would not comment on any historical inaccuracys, furthermore there is no such thing as a perfrmance being historically inaccurate, tradtional music has to evolve and change, i may not like your perfomance or style, but , i would not comment unless you asked me

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Andy7
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 06:46 PM

If I were at a folk club singaround where certain contributors on this thread were present, and I had carefully prepared a performance of one of the most indisputably traditional folk songs in the country, which I'd learned and practised to within an inch of perfection, I'd probably still be too scared to sing it when my moment came ... just in case my interpretation of the song was historically inaccurate, and I ruined it for everyone there! ;-)

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 05:31 PM

There are also a lot more singarounds and sessions than there were in the 60s.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 05:15 PM

Very generous offer, Dave. If that doesn't work you could go that bit further to the Sheffield area hotbed which has oodles of talented youngsters playing folk music, and they know their stuff as well.

The folk scene in England at the moment is certainly vibrant, probably moreso than when we old farts were at it in the 60s, it's just more diverse and doesn't necessarily follow the rigid patterns set up in the 60s. Any current setbacks are definitely down to the economic climate, and not a lack of interest.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 03:00 PM

It was not a singers night observer. It had the traits in that someone went round asking if anyone wanted to do a bit but when someone started a tune a lot of people joined in. More like a session but with spots for solo artists if they wanted them.

Jim. We will just have to disagree. There are, according to the link I gave, 160 folk clubs. If you include venues such as mentioned earlier, there are probably double that regularly showcasing folk music. My experience has been that the majority is good quality with a minority of either poor performances or inappropriate music. I am equally sure that there are some where the quality is poorer than the ones I know are good. At those I know you would not be disappointed in the slightest.

The best way I can thinks of to prove it to you is not by conflict but with the hand of friendship. Book yourself a flight to Leeds one Friday. It is peanuts now. I shall pick you up and take you to the Keighley club. Stop over at ours for the weekend, all on me. We shall find something going on in the Leeds/Bradford area and I will drive. Have the other weekend day off for a tour round the dales. Monday I shall take you to the Skipton club. Tuesday I will take you to the airport for your return flight.

One of two things will happen. You will either see that the folk scene is still vibrant or you will prove that my definition of folk music leaves a lot to be desired! I am pretty sure it will be the former and you will enjoy what you see and hear.

What have you got to lose?

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 02:52 PM

Should read
"while most of the people who are still digging Ewan up for a ritual kicking 30 years after his death were getting on with their careers
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 02:42 PM

"We all knew 'Ewan & Peggy' would get in on it eventually!"
Oh dear, not another bout of necrophobia
Why not, as they were to of the greatest contributors to folk song in Britain
May as well quote Ewan here as you all seem too shit scared to discuss his ideas
Ewan and Pegg were sacrificing a night a week to singers requesting help while most of the people who are still digging Ewan up for a ritual kicking 30 years after his death

One of the sure signs that something is rotten in the State of folkland is the fact that discussing 'what is folk' is a no-go area on this form and whenever two of folks great performers and songwriters are mentioned all present reach for the crucifix and garlic
What is wrong with you people ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 01:56 PM

701. Maths was always a problem even when I was teaching it!

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 01:55 PM

600

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 01:12 PM

We all knew 'Ewan & Peggy' would get in on it eventually!

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 12:51 PM

Dave-ja vu.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 12:18 PM

what is LG? Sorry I am dense and have never been to a folk club.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 12:18 PM

"Having the opportunity to attend folk concerts at a variety of venues is a good thing. Don’t knock it."
I don't and I never have, but they should not be where I have to go to here decently sung folk song
Punk had nothing to do with the decline of folk song (actually, folk songs haven't declined, they exist in their many thousands in recordings and song collections - hopefully for future generations to benefit from what this one appears to have discarded)
What has declined is the opportunity to hear them (unless you live in Edinburgh, Glasgow or Swinton, it would appear)
As far as recognising folk when you hear it - of course different cultures produce different sounds - if you cast your net wide enough, you learn to recognise the genuine article in any culture once you familiarise yourself with it
Nevertheless, there is a thread which goes though manty that are related
In The Song Carriers, Macol starts by taking a recording of an Azerbaijani Bard and playing it into Oaddy Tunney's singing - a remarkable comarison
He then goes on to a recording of a Canto Hondo singer from Spain and runs it into Maggie Barry, the Irish Street singer - amazing similarities of style

Ewan and Peggy once say Joe Haney down and played him a selection of folk and non folk foreign recordings - Joe identified most of the traditional ones - brothers in their respective cultures
Our late friend and neighbour, Tommy McCarthy, came home from Bulgaria full of the similarities of what he had heard from musicians there

I'm not taking a pop at what he does, far from it - I just find what he is telling me extremely upsetting
I now live in Ireland and have watched the tradition move on from what I believed to be its last legs, to one with a thriving future
THat didn't just happen; it was worked for by dedicated individuals who recognised what was happening and turned it around
If I didn't believe that could happen in the U.K. I really wouldn't be arsed arguing
If something isn't done soon the scene will end up as passive recipients of what remainsof our folk song rather than participants of it
Concerts and festivals should b an added bonus, not objects in themselves
Our music was once the property of unpaid, unprofessional performers and song-makers - concerts are for passive observers
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 12:02 PM

retain LG? WTF? Try ‘certainly’!!

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,21st Century Primitive
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 12:01 PM

Saw these two in a room above a pub in Todmorden. Not a folk club and they retain LG don’t claim to be folk. Excellent stuff nonetheless.

Meg Baird and Mary Lattimore - Fair Annie

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,21st Century Primitive
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 11:52 AM

Jim!

Having the opportunity to attend folk concerts at a variety of venues is a good thing. Don’t knock it.

And if Dave the Gnome is irreparably damaging folk I’ll eat my hat. He may be a mighty force, but I doubt the Great Destroyer is from Swinton.

I know why folk clubs declined. It’s because of my generation- the punk generation. We didn’t come along to keep the flame that your generation had lit alive. We got caught up doing other stuff. Meanwhile, there are far more people far younger than me playing traditional music than there are people of my generation, but for many of them, the standard-issue folk club isn’t where they chose to do it. That’s ok. Different generations do things different ways.

Now then. This business of knowing what a folk song sounds like. I’m going to call bullshit on that. Some jolly romp from the Coppers’ Songbook sounds nothing like a Scottish big ballad sounds nothing like piedmont blues sounds nothing like Bulgarian open voice singing sounds nothing like Finnish joik. As we know, folk song does not have a sound but a process...

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 11:43 AM

oh i dunno. theres always been a fair bit of shite around. in fact folk on bbc4 is a a bit of turn off for me. i prefer real shite, like you get in folk clubs.

who needs record company folk.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 11:38 AM

jim ,is right it is important to encourage people to perform and improve their performances,
but selecting singers on the basis of what they sing is something different, personally i do not want to hear buddy holly songs, however the last person i heard do them was Andy Caven, who was a practised competent good performer.
I booked him at the folk club i ran because the audience asked for him, i also booked nic jones john and julia clifford steve turnerjohn and sue kirkpatrick, the club did not have a massive fall off in attendance because i once booked andy caven

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 11:17 AM

Sandy Bell's - Singers nights? I've only ever heard tunes sessions played there.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 11:16 AM

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,Observer - PM
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 05:28 AM

Changes and the way things are going with "Folk"? Clubs are in decline, "House Concerts" and "Village Hall Concerts" are on the rise. The one thing that you have strict control over in the latter two is IF you do have floor singers at all the person hosting the event can select who performs."
and that is how it still is at guestbooking folk clubs in my experience. and how it was back in guest booking folk clubsin the past , if you were not good enough you did not get on

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 11:00 AM

"There is still a wealth of high quality folk music being performed in folk clubs across the country, including the one I helped to run for 35 years."
The evidence it to the contrary Dave - certainly that being presented here
Your list of village halls and peivate gatherings is fairly indicative that I can't go to folk clubs for folk songs
I certainly have no intention of taking an anonymous Wiki article which lumps together Renborn, Dylan, Les Cousins and The Singers Club as representing the club scene   
I know when the scene brean to decline from personal experience to first hearing folk songs sung badly to when you could come away from an evening without hearing anything resembling a folk song
I'm not alone in this - others here have had experiences similar to mine - notably Observer
I know many others who have had the same experience
The scene, at its best, was made up of clubs where unpaid residents were capable of taking an evening totally independent of the starts, cultural democracy at is highest -m now I have to go to a local village hall and hope somebody knows what a a folk song - you appear not to
It's always seemed to me that when you become involved in folk-song (or any artistic form) you commit yourself to your subject
Folk song is, to me more important than most because it hasn't been treated with much respect by the arts Establishment
When the scene itself drops the ball, that becomes a catastrophe
Jim

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 11:00 AM

"There is still a wealth of high quality folk music being performed in folk clubs across the country, including the one I helped to run for 35 years."
The evidence it to the contrary Dave - certainly that being presented here
Your list of village halls and peivate gatherings is fairly indicative that I can't go to folk clubs for folk songs
I certainly have no intention of taking an anonymous Wiki article which lumps together Renborn, Dylan, Les Cousins and The Singers Club as representing the club scene   
I know when the scene brean to decline from personal experience to first hearing folk songs sung badly to when you could come away from an evening without hearing anything resembling a folk song
I'm not alone in this - others here have had experiences similar to mine - notably Observer
I know many others who have had the same experience
The scene, at its best, was made up of clubs where unpaid residents were capable of taking an evening totally independent of the starts, cultural democracy at is highest -m now I have to go to a local village hall and hope somebody knows what a a folk song - you appear not to
It's always seemed to me that when you become involved in folk-song (or any artistic form) you commit yourself to your subject
Folk song is, to me more important than most because it hasn't been treated with much respect by the arts Establishment
When the scene itself drops the ball, that becomes a catastrophe
Jim

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 10:50 AM

Then I can only suggest that you put in an amendment Kenny. I have only been to Sandy Bells once and on the night I was there it had all the traits of what I saw at the White Lion on most singers nights. It was not in a private room but an organiser went round the room asking if people wanted to perform and the music I heard was, in that main, traditional folk. I am pleased to say I sang but there were so many there I only got chance to do one!

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 10:45 AM

"In Edinburgh, Sandy Bell's club in Forest Hill has been running since the late 1960s".
That's "Wikipedia" for you - when was "Sandy Bell's" in Edinburgh ever a "club" of any sort ? If a ludicrous statement like that is left to stand unchallenged, I see no reason to lend any credence to anything else in that article.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 10:19 AM

If you are not prepared to put on folk songs at folk clubs you are guilty of conning people

I don't know how many ways I can say this, Jim. There is still a wealth of high quality folk music being performed in folk clubs across the country, including the one I helped to run for 35 years.

But don't take my word for it. Take a look here - Folk Clubs

The relevant passage is

The number of clubs began to decline in the 1980s, in the face of changing musical and social trends. In London Les Cousins in Greek Street, where John Renbourn often played, and The Scots Hoose in Cambridge Circus, were both casualties. The Singers Club (George IV, Lincoln's Inn) closed its doors in 1993.

The decline began to stabilise in the mid-1990s with the resurgence of interest in folk music and there are now over 160 folk clubs in the United Kingdom, including many that can trace their origins back to the 1950s including The Bridge Folk Club in Newcastle (previously called the Folk Song and Ballad club) claims to the oldest club still in existence in its original venue (1953). In Edinburgh, Sandy Bell's club in Forest Hill has been running since the late 1960s. In London, the Troubadour at Earl's Court, where Bob Dylan, Paul Simon, Sandy Denny and Martin Carthy sang, became a poetry club in the 1990s, but is now a folk club again.

The nature of surviving folk clubs has also changed significantly, many larger clubs use PA systems, opening the door to use of electric instruments, although drums and full electric line-ups remain rare. The mix of music often includes American roots music, blues, British folk rock, and world music as well as traditional British folk music. From 2000 the BBC Radio 2 folk awards have included an award for the best folk club.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 10:04 AM

THings have not moved on Dave - the clubs have been taken over by people who are not prepared to put folk songs on - that is not moving on
How dare you tell me to go somewhere else to listen to folk songs ?

I don't know fully what may or may not be happening across the country but if your arguments here are representative, I fear the worst
I have not misrepresented anything you said, I have read it carefully with growing horror and have replied to it as best I can

If you are not prepared to put on folk songs at folk clubs you are guilty of conning people - it really is as simple as that.
You are also damaging folk song, probably irreparably
Sadly
Jim

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 09:55 AM

I have said none of what you have taken apparent offense at, Jim. Please feel free to link where I have said anything remotely like anything in your rant against my so called 'arrogance'. I suspect that you are riled at something that does not exist. Let's look at the facts rather than the misinterpretations.

1. There are fewer folk clubs than there used to be. You believe that this is due to them relaxing the rules but have provided no facts to back this up. I believe there are fewer because things have moved on.

2. Because things have moved we can now get good quality folk music at a host more venues than the traditional style folk club. They exist side by side and long may that situation continue.

3. In my experience, which is nowhere near as extensive as yours but may be more up to date, there is good quality folk music available in regular folk clubs across the country. My in depth experience is with one club in the north west of England but when I used to travel a lot I found good clubs from Bracknell to Newcastle and Cambridge to Dudley with a lot of places in between. When selecting hotels my first criterion was a nearby folk club!

4. Nowhere has anyone asked you to vacate anything. That is yet another straw man.

I can only suggest that you go back and read my postings to this thread with an objective eye rather than a hostile attitude. If you cannot do that, please stop accusing me of saying things that I have not even suggested.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 09:49 AM

Just trolling by...

From: Bee-dubya-ell

Is a purist someone who plays a pur?

Purtiful

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 09:35 AM

By the way P - Dave has made my point perfectly - if I want to here folk songgs I ahve to go at the local village hall and hope they are putting them on
Sheesh......!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 09:35 AM

By the way P - Dave has made my point perfectly - if I want to here folk songgs I ahve to go at the local village hall and hope they are putting them on
Sheesh......!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 09:34 AM

I've just realised how arrogant your posting is Dave
Sorry, we no longer do folk songs in folk clubs - piss off to the village hall and see if they're doing them
Talk about a hostile takeover
I was here not long after the beginning - I've invested best part of my life in understanding and proliferating folk songs - I helped run workshops, sett up clubs, been part of the making of a dozen albums and sas many radio programmes, was part of establishing the Archive in The British Library and have ammassed one of the largest private arcives in these Islands - I've have given around thirty lectures on the subject (with Pat), and now I am told I have to vacate the scene I helped set up to people who can't even describe the folk song they claim to peddle
That is arrogance to the utmost degree

Patriot
Nothing here has anything to do with "purity" - please have the good manners to read what is written
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 09:22 AM

There is no guarantee of hearing a folk song at any of those venues - nor can there be expected to be

Regardless of the venue, if I go to an event that advertises a folk artist I can guarantee that I will hear folk songs. My point is that folk clubs are not the exclusive custodians of folk music.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 09:17 AM

If you van't describe a folk song I'm afraid that it means you don't know what one is yourself

I cannot describe nuclear fission but I know what the effect can be. I do know what I believe to be a folk song and you can look me up performing some at Swinton if you like. It may not agree with your definition but it is the best I can do. I am more than happy to accept other peoples definitions while fully understanding that no single one of them is the full picture. Can you say the same?

I can't remember any that presented a poorer one than the one you describe - one where I'm neither guaranteed folk songs or a reasonable standard or, in some cases, haven't even bothered learning them

I have never described a folk club let alone suggested that people performing should not learn their songs. The only one I mentioned was Swinton. If you visited there, chances are we met. I was doorman and oft times MC from the offset and only stopped doing so some 5 years back. It has always had the same ethos so, if you enjoyed it then, you still will.

Straw man once again, Jim.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,patriot
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 09:03 AM

there are lots of people- some on this thread, who in the context of folk clubs & suchlike, look down their nose at any material, however well- performed, which does not conform to their opinion of what 'folk'music is.

these people see themselves as standing guard over the 'purity'; of the music,

Conclusion- Purists DO exist and you don't have to look far to find them       Q.E.D.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 09:01 AM

What you described are unspecified concerts where anything goes on
A far cry from venues which were set up to listen to and perform folk song
There is no guarantee of hearing a folk song at any of those venues - nor can there be expected to be
Festivals are for the already initiated and they tend to be somewhat "in" affairs - and even they are disappearing - go count the number of major festivals that no longer take place

If you van't describe a folk song I'm afraid that it means you don't know what one is yourself - I think that makes my point perfectly
I went to Swinton many years ago and listened to folk songs - from the sound of it, I am no longer guaranteed to be able to do that now

"Some folk clubs did, rightly or wrongly, generate a poor image"
I can't remember any that presented a poorer one than the one you describe - one where I'm neither guaranteed folk songs or a reasonable standard or, in some cases, haven't even bothered learning them
Jim

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 08:51 AM

I'm not understanding the heat here. I personally don't think there is anything to worry about. It's in good hands there is peer review to keep it in check, and excellent tutalidge.
Everyone knows how change and innovation works in these disciplines and i've not noticed decline in fact quite the opposite.
       I would imagine the demographic here is not really the target audience for the short vid posted above. That sort of thing aimed at a younger audience I would imagine.Hopefully at our age those type of lessons are learned already.