Do purists really exist?

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 08:30 AM

I envision a folk club where people can go and hear folk songs reasonably well performed

People can still go to folk clubs to hear 'folk songs reasonably well performed'. They can also go to concert halls, village halls, community centres, festivals, pubs, house parties, and any number of venues where they can hear the same. Some folk clubs did, rightly or wrongly, generate a poor image. It is the type of folk club that perpetuated that image that has, quite rightly, had its day.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 08:21 AM

You still have not answered my question either, Jim. What did you mean by 'I told you what I believe'. To me that indicates that it is your view, not fact. Unless your belief comes from facts that you, as yet, have not given us.

But, yet again, I will address your point. If someone asked me what folk song was I would say I cannot describe it in words alone and give them a couple of songs that I perform. Or invite them to Swinton folk club to listen :-)

And there is nothing at all insulting in what I said. You asked what relevance the film had. I said it demonstrates what happens when any single person or group insists that their way is the only right way. Nothing whatsoever to do with folk clubs or you. You are either looking for insults where non exist or tilting at straw men.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 08:10 AM

"It isn't. It is just the type of folk club that you are referring to has had its day.""
I envision a folk club where people can go and hear folk songs reasonably well performed - nothing more
If that is out of date than we no longer have a place to go to hear folk song - or to draw people into listening to folk songs
"their 'way " again Dave - now becoming insulting - it's not "my way" - it's the way is was
You have yet to answer my question so I'll repeat it

"I have just met you on line and I asked you to describe this folk song I keep hearing about - how would you go about it, or where would you point me to to read the subject up
Feel free to ask me the same question, of course"
Put simply, what do you mean by "folk song"?

"Another one Jim doesn't believe exists:"
Either we cross-posted (though I have had the same thing before) or you are just bening bloody-mindedly obtuse Jack

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 07:59 AM

I asked first, Jim.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 06:12 AM

Jim. Your exact phrase is 'I told you what I believe'. That indicates it is your view or opinion. If that is not what you meant please tell me what you really did mean.

You never addressed that point but I am happy to address yours. I said absolutely nothing like the folk song I (you) envisions is solely my own invention and that there is so room for it on the present scene My exact phrase, for the second time, was "And please note that I am not saying folk music is out of favour. It isn't. It is just the type of folk club that you are referring to has had its day."

How you get your interpretation out of those words is beyond me I'm afraid.

And, yes, please dig out any proof you have that folk clubs started to decline because they relaxed the rules on what music could be performed. I would be very interested to see actual proof, not your opinion or someone else's conclusion, but solid evidence please.

The film was, just as I said, an interesting coincidence. It does not apply specifically to this thread but to all discussions where anyone believes that their 'way' is better than anyone else's.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 07:54 AM

Another one Jim doesn't believe exists:

FB group for Glasgow Ballad Workshop

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 07:46 AM

"As does yours, Jim. You have come up with no proof whatsoever.
I've told you where it was documented - I can probably dig out the articles if you really don't believe me
You wouldn't be the first one to call me a liar on this thread - I respect your, it doesn't concern me a bit what the other feller thinks of me, what you do matters

"Where in that statement do I say that the music has had its day?"
" It isn't. It is just the type of folk club that you are referring to has had its day."
You appear to be saying that the folk song I envisions is solely my own invention and that there is so room for it on the present scene
If that's not what you are saying, what exactly are you saying ?
Where can we go to here folk songs if it isn't in a folk club?
If what goes on at today;'s clubs has nothing to do wwith folk song why is that not damaging folk song beyond repair

I asked you a question and I would be very much obliged if you answered it
I haven't the faintest idea what relevance your film has to do with this
Jim

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 07:03 AM

So a music that has survived for centuries has "had its day" because a rapidly diminishing bunch of ageing2 folkies no longer find it interesting

Jim, you are being obtuse. Whether that is purposely or otherwise is irrelevant but it is quite simple to look back at my post where I say

"And please note that I am not saying folk music is out of favour. It isn't. It is just the type of folk club that you are referring to has had its day."

Where in that statement do I say that the music has had its day?

You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but unless to can substantiate that opinion with facts it remains only your opinion

As does yours, Jim. You have come up with no proof whatsoever. Restating your opinion over and over again does not constitute proof.

An interesting coincidence just cropped up. A good friend of mine and stalwart of our folk club stars in this short film. It is a bit heavy but well worth 13.5 minutes to see what can happen when you believe that yours is the only truth.

Enjoy

A Nick Short film.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 07:03 AM

"I take it this is the sort of thing Jim doesn't believe exists?"
Why should I not believe it exists or that the Ballad Workshop exists in Glasgow , or I can't go to The Musical Traditions in London and hear a good night of folk sons well sung....
Are yuio suggesting that the sme proliferates throughout Britain or that we should all nip up to Edinburgh or Glasgow or London whenever we fancy a good folk song ?

What is being argued for here is exactly the opposite Jack, that what happens in these venues "has had its day" in the club scene and no longer has any relevance to modern life
Does that not impact on you in any way ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 06:53 AM

"I used to think that folk song would survive forever, but I have come to believe that it will only die if it falls into the hands of people who don't like it or understand it"
It seems he might have hit the nail squarely on the head"
   Gentlemen please ouch ! (fair play to you) ;)
Right what's the next topic.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 06:47 AM

" That indicates it is your view or opinion. "
No Dave - I have a long-held consensus and I have the evidence to back up that consensus - what can you offer in return ?

"The bubble burst. "
The bubble burst when the folk boom ended an the music industry lost interest
After that, the folk scene gathered its forces and established itself with its own labels, a plethora of magazines and new writings
It continued until the clubs moved away from folk song and opted for bums on seats
You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but unless to can substantiate that opinion with facts it remains only your opinion

Try this
I have just met you on line and I asked you to describe this folk song I keep hearing about - how would you go about it, or where would you point me to to read the subject up
Feel free to ask me the same question, of course

"It is just the type of folk club that you are referring to has had its day."
So a music that has survived for centuries has "had its day" because a rapidly diminishing bunch of ageing2 folkies no longer find it interesting - how sad (if I for one minute accepted it)
In the interview I quoted from above MacColl, I bridled somewhat when MacColl said
"I used to think that folk song would survive forever, but I have come to believe that it will only die if it falls into the hands of people who don't like it or understand it"
It seems he might have hit the nail squarely on the head

Jim

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 06:12 AM

Jim. Your exact phrase is 'I told you what I believe'. That indicates it is your view or opinion. If that is not what you meant please tell me what you really did mean.

My alternative view of why folk clubs declined is that the massive increase of them in the 50s and 60s could not be sustained. The bubble burst. They fell out of favour, as did 60s music and bell bottomed trousers. These things are all cyclical. Nothing is new. They all come and go as does everything else and trying to hold on to what happened in the past is pointless.

And please note that I am not saying folk music is out of favour. It isn't. It is just the type of folk club that you are referring to has had its day.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 06:01 AM

"Yes it is Jim. You told us what you believe. "
No it isn't Dave - I've told you that the songs we always knew as folk were not mine - they are the ones documented as such - ir really is nothing to do with my views or tastes
If you have an alternative feel free to offer it, but please do not belittle it by suggesting the one I hold is "mine"
All "opinions" need to be based on something - I've told you what mine is - Child Sharp - and over a century of research, what are yours based on ?
The revival was built on the material collected by the BBC in the 1950s... what 'the folk' sang and almost certainly made
Nowadays, the club scene appears to be based on whatever takes the fancy of whoever participates - I find that insulting
I don't know who is lkely to turn up to hear centuries old pop songs that lived for a short time and then were forgotten - but they are now being given Roud numbers
This is nonsense
I have some idea of your political views and I assume that someone who calls himself "The Leveller" holds similar ones
Where does "The Voice of the People" figure in all this - and where does the hostility which often arises when that voice is discussed come from?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 05:49 AM

I told you why I believe it started to decline and when - nothing to do with "my view"

Yes it is Jim. You told us what you believe. Which is precisely your view means. I, and many others, disagree with that view but, again, that is only opinion. The only fact that can be verified is that there are not as many folk clubs as there used to be. There are a number of theories as to why that is but until someone can verify one as true that is all they are. Theories.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 05:28 AM

I take it this is the sort of thing Jim doesn't believe exists?

The World's Room, Edinburgh

It's good but it's hardly unique. Just happens to be the easiest for me to get to.

Waiting for Jim to chime in with reasons why it can't exist, or must be really horrible because he had a bad time at some venue in Birmingham 40 years ago.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 05:28 AM

Changes and the way things are going with "Folk"? Clubs are in decline, "House Concerts" and "Village Hall Concerts" are on the rise. The one thing that you have strict control over in the latter two is IF you do have floor singers at all the person hosting the event can select who performs.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 05:26 AM

"People will never agree on a definition of folk music s"
Nence the shambles of the club scene
There is a well documented definition - the fact that a handful of revisionists have decided to redefine it is immaterial - folk song is what it always has been
If we can't be arsed to either accept that definition or come up with one that we can all agree with we may as well leave it to rot, as it is doing
I told you why I believe it started to decline and when - nothing to do with "my view"
We knew what folk song was then - go look at the Topic catalogue - go and look at Roud's list before he decided to wander off in another direction
Folk song is as well documented as any other musical form; better than most - if we all want to have our own private definition we really are wasting our time - and I and many like me have wasted our lives
Jim

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 05:26 AM

"People will never agree on a definition of folk music s"
Nence the shambles of the club scene
There is a well documented definition - the fact that a handful of revisionists have decided to redefine it is immaterial - folk song is what it always has been
If we can't be arsed to either accept that definition or come up with one that we can all agree with we may as well leave it to rot, as it is doing
I told you why I believe it started to decline and when - nothing to do with "my view"
We knew what folk song was then - go look at the Topic catalogue - go and look at Roud's list before he decided to wander off in another direction
Folk song is as well documented as any other musical form; better than most - if we all want to have our own private definition we really are wasting our time - and I and many like me have wasted our lives
Jim

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 05:22 AM

"Certainly you should practice and try to attain the best performance you can, but having the words in front of you in case of a 'senior moment' can only be of benefit to the audience and shouldn't detract from the delivery."

Really fed up with this "senior moment" crap. But of course in this part of the above ".... having the words in front of you in case of a 'senior moment' can only be of benefit to the audience and shouldn't detract from the delivery." - The SHOULDN'T being the operative word. The reality is however it does detract and detract massively from the delivery compared to someone who has:

A - Learned the song
B - Sings it in key
C - Has worked out the phrasing of the song to deliver it in accordance with their interpretation of it

None of that can be done whilst hesitatingly reading the words while trying to sing them.

If you are seriously trying to equate someone singing a folk song to a group of people singing in a choir, or playing in an orchestra then I am sorry you are knowingly comparing apples to oranges as the latter two disciplines are NOT solo performances but multi-part collaborative pieces where those involved are singing and playing under direction that requires the highest discipline and perfect timing. The Score you see in their hands let's those holding them know what the others are doing and tells them when they should come in, something you do not need if you are performing on your own.

By the way someone sat there in public attempting to play and sing something that they haven't bothered to learn in a halting and hesitant manner, intermittently apologising while they stop to scroll their tablet - would not under any circumstance count as any sort of performance.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 05:19 AM

declining folk clubs are a result of anumber of different factors, soory whats dogmatic about asking people to practise and try and do a good job. i have changed my opinion and am prepared to accept people reading words... if they have practised

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 05:13 AM

Jim, this has been discussed ad nauseum. People will never agree on a definition of folk music so your insistence that your definition is the only one of any merit will always cause controversy. Our folk club was and still is well attended and a typical singers night will see a majority of songs belonging to your definition but will also contain a small number that you would not regard as folk. It is far from the 'anything goes' definition that you seem to think is prevalent but it is not rigidly stuck in the past either.

You seem to have cause and effect confused when you say that folk clubs started to decline when they started to deviate from your view. It was the other way round. Folk clubs started to decline well before the introduction of a more relaxed regime. The definition became more flexible to try and breathe a bit of life into a dying club scene. Sometimes it worked. Sometimes it didn't. C'est la vie.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 04:43 AM

"It's this sort of self-righteous, dogmatic attitude that drives people away from performing folk music."
Fraid not - the scene diminished to nothing when the choice of what you heard when you went to a folk club was removed
THere were a long series of articles in 'Folk Review' which predicted the decline fairly accurately
What can possibly be "dogmatic" about expecting to hear folk songs reasonably well sung - it is really beyond me and I've yet to see anybody explain it

It is insulting to an art form to suggest it should not be carried out well
Little wonder that Folk has never been taken seriously by more than a tiny handful of devotees
Even pop fans make demands on their idols = what is wrong with ours that so many denigrate it with an "anything goes" attitude ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: theleveller
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 04:31 AM

"Many use words to sing from" - Never used to be the case, that has crept in over the years, to now becoming accepted as being the norm. Again if you are going to sing in public have the decency to actually learn your material. or alternatively practise using wordsor printed material , so that like an actor you canm do a professional performance"

It's this sort of self-righteous, dogmatic attitude that drives people away from performing folk music. Certainly you should practice and try to attain the best performance you can, but having the words in front of you in case of a 'senior moment' can only be of benefit to the audience and shouldn't detract from the delivery. That's why every orchestra in the world and most professional choirs have the score in front of them. When I go to watch The Sixteen - probably the most sublime singing ensemble I've ever heard - they always sing from the score; to not do so would be considered totally unprofessional.


But, hey, Observer, you set out your list of rules and the rest of us can tell you, and all the other purists, where to stick them.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 02:58 AM

I think Andy is either missing or avoiding the poit
I can get
"What I have experienced, is friendly and welcoming groups of people, who perform, and enjoy, a wide variety of music "
Where does "folk song" fit into this - if it doesn't, why call yourself a "folk Club"
I can get welcoming groups of people anywhere and a wide group of material in a karaoke session
It is possible to ge an occasional gem in a poor session, but unlss you establish a standard, the likelihood of doing so is reduced considerably
It is unfair to expect those who have taken the trouble to learn the words and tune after the atmosphere has been lowered by those who haven't
One dreadful singer can ruin an entire evening - sadly, that's what the audience will remember
I helped run singers workshops all the years I have been involved in folk song and have come to the conclusion that, with very few exceptions anybody can become a proficient singer and the harder they are prepared to work at it, the better they will become

Again, I find myself in total agreement with 'Observer'
Anybody who sings in front of an audience without putting in the work shows contempt for the audience and for the songs - you owe putting in an effort to both

MacColl said it all for me in a long interview we did over six months back in the 80s

"Now you might say that working and training to develop your voice to sing Nine Maidens A-milking Did Go or Lord Randall is calculated to destroy your original joy in singing, at least that’s the argument that’s put to me from time to time, or has been put to me from time to time by singers who should know better.   
The better you can do a thing the more you enjoy it.   Anybody who’s ever tried to sing and got up in front of an audience and made a bloody mess of it knows that you’re not enjoying it when you’re making a balls of it, but you are enjoying it when it’s working, when all the things you want to happen are happening.    And that can happen without training, sure it can, but it’s hit or miss.   
If you’re training it can happen more, that’s the difference.   It can’t happen every time, not with anybody, although your training can stand you in good stead, it’s something to fall back on, a technique, you know.   It’s something that will at least make sure that you’re not absolutely diabolical……………
The objective, really for the singer is to create a situation where when he starts to sing he’s no longer worried about technique, he’s done all that, and he can give the whole of his or her attention to the song itself, she can give her or he can give his whole attention to the sheer act of enjoying the song."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 02:03 AM

2. "Many use words to sing from" - Never used to be the case, that has crept in over the years, to now becoming accepted as being the norm. Again if you are going to sing in public have the decency to actually learn your material. or alternatively practise using wordsor printed material , so that like an actor you canm do a professional performance

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 01:44 AM

"True, most performers are not experts at their craft, and many use words to sing from. Maybe they've only recently started out. Maybe their memory is not as good as it was. Maybe having the words there, just in case, gives them the confidence to perform. Does that mean those people shouldn't be allowed to sing?"

1. You do not have to be an expert. But IF you are going to "perform", i.e. impose yourself on a group of innocent bystanders, in public you owe it to THEM and the venue to pass as being competent.

2. "Many use words to sing from" - Never used to be the case, that has crept in over the years, to now becoming accepted as being the norm. Again if you are going to sing in public have the decency to actually learn your material.

3. Only problem with the "Oh it helps my memory" angle, or as a confidence booster, is that it would appear that the more they use the words the more they appear to rely on the words, they never ever get any better - If you do not "know" a song after singing the damn thing twenty-odd times - give up you re never going to learn it.

4. As for the singing, the short, hard and cruel answer if you are interested in maintaining a standard is no they shouldn't "perform" until they know their material well enough to perform it. Their obvious need for these supports screams that they themselves are uncomfortable and unsure. As previously stated use of such props would be mitigated if over the course of time they actually showed some signs of improvement, but they don't.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 06:57 PM

Is a purist someone who plays a pur?

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Andy7
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 06:03 PM

No folk club I've ever been to - and I've been to many, over the years - has ever consisted of an entire evening of extremely mediocre renditions of old pop songs mumbled by people who are not particularly good singers reading the words and having to interrupt their own accompaniment by pausing to scroll up on their tablet.

What I have experienced, is friendly and welcoming groups of people, who perform, and enjoy, a wide variety of music - from those 'old pop songs' to traditional unaccompanied songs, and very much else besides.

True, most performers are not experts at their craft, and many use words to sing from. Maybe they've only recently started out. Maybe their memory is not as good as it was. Maybe having the words there, just in case, gives them the confidence to perform. Does that mean those people shouldn't be allowed to sing?

If I want to listen to top performers, I'll pay to go to a concert, which I do from time to time. And if I want a relaxed evening of friendship, lighthearted banter and a wide variety of music, some of which is of a very high standard, I'll go to a folk club.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 02:09 PM

'Pray tell, what is there to rejoice and enjoy about, when the weekly, fortnightly and monthly fare consists of extremely mediocre renditions of old pop songs mumbled by people who are not particularly good singers reading the words and having to interrupt their own accompaniment by pausing to scroll up on their "tablet" - they'd be better off in a Karaoke Bar.

The odd thing is that with this wealth of material available to them on these effin' tablets, they keep coming out with exactly the same shitty numbers week in week out without showing any sign of improvement.

The Observers Book of Folk Music.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 10:58 AM

Pfr, if all else fails, you can always view the page source (on some browsers, right click on the page and select the option from the popup menu) and look for the post.

Simplifying Vic's post a little, I get:

<font face = wingdings size = "+36">&#9786;</font>

☺

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 10:45 AM

"when attempts are made to draw me into exchanges of insults"

Eh...????

have you forgot you are the one who dropped in playing clever buggers for no apparent reason..

"Vic Smith - Date: 17 Dec 18 - 06:57 AM"

Btw.. I was serious asking for advice on coding that emoticon...

but alas, that is the kind of misunderstanding emoticons can help prevent...???

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 09:53 AM

As others know, when attempts are made to draw me into exchanges of insults, I will not participate and retreat from the field. Anyway, as part of my busy modern life, I have far too much to do; I need to complete the present chapter of my great elequent novel. (You will be pleased to hear that it is going well as the moment) Then it is my turn to cook before we have a 35 minute drive to a monthly club where we expect to partcipate in an evening devoted exclusively to traditional songs and tunes. Life is good!
Exeunt

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 09:13 AM

see.. the emoticon plugin in Chrome still don't work...

If you wanna do something useful with yer clever bugger coding skills,
how about giving me a copy and paste for FACE WITH STUCK OUT TONGUE AND WINKING EYE
that I can keep handy on notepad...

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 09:08 AM

??

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 09:02 AM

It would be much easier to discern if you used a good expressive emoticon....
Waht do you mean like ☺?

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 08:20 AM

Vic - you can be as smug as you like...*
but when folks are quickly dashing off posts to a forum,
a well chosen emoticon is now an established form of communication
as part of busy modern life...
We can't all spend time drafting each post as though we are writing a great elequent novel...

[* you may or may not be intending to convey a smug sense of disdain and superiority...
It would be much easier to discern if you used a good expressive emoticon....

Unfortunately 'improvements' to mudcat coding no longer permit this useful facility...]

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 08:16 AM

Not sure what you're saying Vic
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 06:57 AM

Punkfolkrocker wrote:-
"Remember when mudcat allowed use of emoticons..."

How true! Sometimes I just do not know how to express myself without putting one of these evocative symbols to express how I am feeling. 

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 06:22 AM

"It would be great if there were lots of 'purist' folk clubs for those that want them"
"Purist Folk clubs" is like saying "purist greengrocers or "purist" stationers
Folk is what folk clubs are supposed to do - that's our product identity and it's what we contract to give to those seeking it
Folk Clubs are struggling to keep going because those interested in folk can no longer find what they're looking for and those seeking something else can find it far better done elsewhere

"extremely mediocre renditions of old pop songs mumbled by people who are not particularly good"
Wish I'd said that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 05:39 AM

"rather than mourn the loss of what we once had, let's value, and enjoy, what we have now!"

Pray tell, what is there to rejoice and enjoy about, when the weekly, fortnightly and monthly fare consists of extremely mediocre renditions of old pop songs mumbled by people who are not particularly good singers reading the words and having to interrupt their own accompaniment by pausing to scroll up on their "tablet" - they'd be better off in a Karaoke Bar.

The odd thing is that with this wealth of material available to them on these effin' tablets, they keep coming out with exactly the same shitty numbers week in week out without showing any sign of improvement.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Andy7
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 05:10 AM

It would be great if there were lots of 'purist' folk clubs for those that want them. But there are not, and nor are there likely to be.

Even the 'non-purist' folk clubs that we have now often struggle to keep going. But at least they do; and among their variety of music, they do preserve some of the 'purist' tradition in the offerings from some members (including from magpie singers like me, now and then).

So, rather than mourn the loss of what we once had, let's value, and enjoy, what we have now!

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 04:18 AM

I believe we have lost our 'folk' identity"At one time, they all coincided - I could write about and lecture on what I sang and what I listened to - that no longer applies in Britain
I believe we have lost our 'folk' identity
Jim Carroll
what a sweeping generalisation, jim dismisses all the fiddle and accordion clubs in scotland,all the morris dancers all the folk customs suchas padstow etc

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 04:13 AM

Ihere is plenty of variety amongst traditional songs,if people want to sing Xliff Richard songs ,why do they not form a pop acoustic club.
I would not turn up at a jazz club and expect to hear an unaccompanied tradtional song such as long lankin,unless it was played as a tune and improvised upon/

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 03:50 AM

Can't disagree with any of that Andy, except it doesn't apply to just now - I have always enjoyed other types of music, jazz, swing, opera, classical....
It's not a matter of what yoy 'enjoy' - it's what you pass off as 'folk' at 'folk' clubs
My interest in folk music in folk music has always been as a singer, a listener and a researcher, documenter and passer-on of folk songs and other folk arts
At one time, they all coincided - I could write about and lecture on what I sang and what I listened to - that no longer applies in Britain
I believe we have lost our 'folk' identity
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Andy7
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 06:46 PM

Yes I agree, getting older is a strange experience.

One of its effects, for me, is that I'm much less of a 'purist' than I once was.

I used to seek out, and learn, old traditional songs to sing at folk clubs (as well as a couple of songs from a few 'accepted' folk artists, like Dylan, or S&G).

Now, I sing a much wider variety of songs; and, more importantly, I'm happy to accept, and enjoy, a much wider variety of songs from others.

Yes, I do still really enjoy hearing those old, unaccompanied, traditional songs. But I also like to hear other stuff; I love the variety I hear in my local clubs. Songs I may never have heard, if I'd just stayed at home and watched YouTube.

I have my likes and dislikes, of course, as does everyone. But to be honest, I'd probably have stopped going to local clubs long ago, had every song performed there been a long, unaccompanied, traditional ballad.

So ... to keep me as a very supportive member - who helps put out and pack away tables and chairs, and who runs the bar occasionally, when the organisers can't make it - you need to give me some variety! And I'm sure I'm not alone in that opinion!

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 01:19 PM

Jim like trump you seem t5o believe in post truth

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 01:06 PM

Andy - getting old is a big novelty for me - it's all new...

Respects to the mudcat elders who've already been there and dunnit a long time ago...

Did I say my memory is going...???

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Andy7
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 12:52 PM

So you keep telling us ...    :-)

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 12:37 PM

yes Donovan.. serves you right...

.. I could resort to even worse punishments...

You do know I used to have an encyclopaedic knowledge of shite pop folk...

Luckily for all mudcatters, age is impairing my memory...

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 12:09 PM

Sorry if I mistook your meaning PFR - bit difficult distinguishing the Wood from the trees after an encounter with Dick
Blame it on the shell-shock
But Donovan !!!!!!!
Jim

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 11:20 AM

Remember when mudcat allowed use of emoticons...

My favourite, almost signature icon, was the cheeky winky eyed sticky out tongue emoticon.

Back then, over sensitive folks could not so easily mistake good natured tongue in cheek mickey taking as "snide"...