Do purists really exist?

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 03:20 AM

"However running a club that as residents sitting on a sill, looking down at the audience"
I get a little tired of reported incidents like this - I have got used to them with the Singers Club - they bore no resemblance to the reality of what was happening
'The Singers' operated from a stage facing the audience, as did 'The Wayfarers' and the MSG in Manchester, and 'Thew Empress of Russia', in London and 'The Herga' in Harrow and 'The Grey Cock' in Birmingham virtually every other club I visited regularly - Leeds, Sheffield, Liverpool...
This "looking down on the audience" is, as far as I am concerned, a nasty and inaccurate
Who do people who criticise the layout of clubs think they are - little dictators
Any residents who 'looked down on an audience' very soon lost their audiences - these clubs ran for many years
Audences walked away from the folk scene when the standards fell and when they were no longer guaranteed folk songs when they turned up at a folk club = pretty well documented

I've told you why I consider myself in a position to judge Dick - you choose to ignore what I have to say - far more insulting than the NMTC residents "looking down on their audiences" as far as I'm concerned, as is being compared to Dpn Quixote"
You complain about "insulting audiences" by insulting people - do you not find that a little contradictory ?
Sadly, Jack, someone I usually respect, chooses to do the same

As far as I am concerned, until folk clubs rebuild their foundation by making themselves venues where people can go to hear folk songs sung to a reasonable standard they will continue to decline - that's not purism; it's common sense
I've made my points - respond to them politely and stop insulting me - otherwise, we are wasting each other's time
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 03:38 AM

I do not consider you are in a position to judge folk clubs if your judgement is based on watching an occasional you tube clip.
The point of a club is that it is inclusive, the idea of NTMC that residents sat on a sill behind the performers in an elevated position, this type set up often creates a them and us situation,it gives an impression that the residents on the SILL were better or more important than visiting singers.
To criticise a particular aspect of a folk club has nothing to do with being a dictator.
HVING A POLICY THAT INSISTS ON EITHER TRADTIONAL ONLY, BLUES ONLY, OR SONGWRITERS ONLY IS PURIST, the fact it is purist does not automatically mean it is bad.
I am afraid in my eyes you are reminscent oif Don Quixote because until you tell us how often you have visited uk folk clubs when you are living in ireland you are in a similar postion to Don Quxitoe in that you are off on imaginary or NON EXISTENT VISITS

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 04:36 AM

Jim, resident perfomers at NTMC were positioned behind performers, on a SILL in a slightly elevated position, LOOKING OUT TOWARDS THE AUDIENCE ,THIS IS AN ACCURATE DESCRIPTION OF THE LAYOUT OF THE FOLK CLUB , THE RESIDENTS WERE KNOWN AS ON THE SILL.
They were seperated from the audience, AND ALSO SAT BEHIND BOOKED GUEST PERFORMERS, this is FACT,and well you know it.
   my interpretation of this is that it created a distancing of the residents from the audience, I also think that as a performer it is better to have all your audience[ including organisers and residents in front of you] where you can see their reactions, i think that when a guest artist is performing it is better for the guest to be able to see the reactions of all the audience including the residents and organisers, ,and is imperative in attempting to give as good a perfomance as possible.
layout of rooms in clubs is important in enabling performers to perform to a high standard

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 04:52 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that Jim is the only contributer here who is "living in Ireland".
Now we all know that you perform fairly regularly in British folk clubs, Dick, but how many would that have been, this year, say ? Would it be enough to make a general observation as to whether or not Jim's belief that "folk" songs [ however you define that ] are not generally being sung in the folk clubs as they are in 2018 is true or not ? I'm not taking any sides in any debate here, but would be genuinely interested to know.
I speak as one who - like Jim - more or less gave up on folk clubs some years ago for the same reasons as him, but also for an appalling drop in musical standards [ IMHO ].
Do "purists" exist ? Yes, I've been called that myself, but it's not true, and it wouldn't worry me anyway - I've been called worse. :)

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 05:31 AM

"I do not consider you are in a position to judge folk clubs if your judgement is based on watching an occasional you tube clip."
Now you are deliberately distorting some of what I have said and deliberately ignoring
You have my arguments here
Date: 12 Dec 18 - 10:57 AM
I don't give a shit how the Nottingham Club behaved - I know from knowing some of those involved that THEY DID NOT "LOOK DOWN" ON THEIR AUDIENCE AS YOU INTERPRET IT - THEY WOULD NOT HAVE HAD AN AUDIENCE, HAD THEY DONE SO

They are to be complemented for choosing not to occupy seats reserved for paying guests, as far as I'm concerned, having had to stand up all night in crowded clubs enough times.

Don' you fdare tell me I am not in a position to judge what is happening when this forum stands as living proof, in its arguments supporting crib sheets, low standards and using folk clubs as 'anything goes' cultural dustbins, of exactly what is happening on the club scene
I'm very grateful for Kenny's contribution - his views represent many of us who walked away when we'de had enough of being let down

What is happening in Ireland on the music scene stands as a shining example of what could be done if the will was there
Kids have flocked to the music without it having to be mixed in with other forms, or watered down
Hey have been taiught by the older generation of masters and mistresses of traditional music at summer schools like The Willie Clancy one here in Miltown, or the Frankie Kennedy one... hopefully The Tommy Peoples planned School will add to that
They don't have to take what they learn as gospel - they are most certainly making the music their own; but they are doing what they do on the raw, unadulterated material and it's paying off in spades - Irish traditional music has now bee guaranteed at least a two generation future thanks to the efforts of a handful of dedicated "purists"
I suggest you come back when you can say the same for the British scene
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 05:31 AM

"I do not consider you are in a position to judge folk clubs if your judgement is based on watching an occasional you tube clip."
Now you are deliberately distorting some of what I have said and deliberately ignoring
You have my arguments here
Date: 12 Dec 18 - 10:57 AM
I don't give a shit how the Nottingham Club behaved - I know from knowing some of those involved that THEY DID NOT "LOOK DOWN" ON THEIR AUDIENCE AS YOU INTERPRET IT - THEY WOULD NOT HAVE HAD AN AUDIENCE, HAD THEY DONE SO

They are to be complemented for choosing not to occupy seats reserved for paying guests, as far as I'm concerned, having had to stand up all night in crowded clubs enough times.

Don' you fdare tell me I am not in a position to judge what is happening when this forum stands as living proof, in its arguments supporting crib sheets, low standards and using folk clubs as 'anything goes' cultural dustbins, of exactly what is happening on the club scene
I'm very grateful for Kenny's contribution - his views represent many of us who walked away when we'de had enough of being let down

What is happening in Ireland on the music scene stands as a shining example of what could be done if the will was there
Kids have flocked to the music without it having to be mixed in with other forms, or watered down
Hey have been taiught by the older generation of masters and mistresses of traditional music at summer schools like The Willie Clancy one here in Miltown, or the Frankie Kennedy one... hopefully The Tommy Peoples planned School will add to that
They don't have to take what they learn as gospel - they are most certainly making the music their own; but they are doing what they do on the raw, unadulterated material and it's paying off in spades - Irish traditional music has now bee guaranteed at least a two generation future thanks to the efforts of a handful of dedicated "purists"
I suggest you come back when you can say the same for the British scene
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 06:07 AM

I have been to clubs that are solidly traditional and clubs where you are lucky to hear one traditional song in an evening. I have been to clubs with high performance standards and clubs that provide a music stand as standard as so many people use cribs.

It is simply a waste of time to generalise.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 06:18 AM

Thankyou Peter.
Kenny, i play regularly in uk folk clubs and festivals, but i have not passed any judgemet on folk clubs , jim has but has not answered how many times he has been over, since i have not passed any judgement it is not for me to answer, however i will say that based on my limited but regularexperiences, i would endorse what peter says

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 07:01 AM

"It is simply a waste of time to generalise."
It is virtually impossible not to generalise when you are discussing the general state of the club scene
I have no doubt good clubs exist - I've always enjoyed the Musical Traditions Club in London, but I had a hell of a time finding another which came anywhere near it's standards - that includes the one at Britain's centre of folk excellence at Cecil Sharp house, which, on the night we were there abounded with crib-sheets, forgotten words and out-of-tune singing.
As far as I can judge, compared to how it was when I left, the scene is moribund and the academic side has become revisionist
Not much hope for th future in that - we can't all shoot up to Edinburgh or down to Lewes when we want a good night of folk songs   
I used to think it wasd (to borrow Billy Connolly's phrase) "sick but save-able - not so sure FOLLOWING DISCUSSINIONS LIKE THIS ONE

"but i have not passed any judgement on folk clubs"
You seem pretty keen on denigrating the NTMC
My attendance at folk clubs has no relevance, your refusal to respond to what I actually said has
Piss or get off the pot
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 07:36 AM

I was explaining how NTMC was run, factual experience [something you appear to be short on when you judge the folk clubs of 2018] i did not denigrate their booking policy, telling someone to piss off illustrates the bankruptcy of your comments. yourattendance at uk folk clubs is relevant , because if you have not attended any you cannot make an accurate judgement, further proof you are talking hot air

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 07:40 AM

I know you guys seem like to spend all your time on this forum going round in circles in pointless arguments.

I don't know how many people come on here as people who are interested and start to read this stuff but as outsiders do not understand what you are actually talking about. I am one anyway.

It would be really helpful to hear some examples of the music. That way I would understand more.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 08:00 AM

Agreed!!! It might also be useful to establish an agreed definition of "purist" so that we might be able to discuss and then perhaps, answer, the original question which forms the thread's title.
As we cannot even agree a definition of "folk music" it seems unlikely that we can agree what constitutes a pure interpretation of it.

I might add that my calendar tells me that I have present at around 75 live folk music events this year so far. A few of them have been disappointing but they are outnumbered by those that I have left feeling uplifted by performances of traditional song and music by performers from England, Scotland, Ireland, France, Wales, The USA and Canada. These included quite a number by younger performers that I had not seen before and I would like to name Daoirí Farrell and Cohen Braithwaite-Kilcoyne amongst these.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 10:01 AM

The thing is there's plenty of variety of folk clubs. If you don't like one sort, you can go to another. There are some I don't go to - even though they are run by personal friends. Its hard work if you're not enjoying the music.

Some folk clubs are rin by people who dislike me, and I dislike them - but I go to them if theres an artist I want to see.

Its just the way it is. I'm sure its like that for most people.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 10:56 AM

I've a simple solution, I don't go to folk clubs...
Haven't set foot in one for about 40 years...
Except once about 14 years ago, a pub in Clevedon advertised as a folk night..

Great old pub - real proper job cider - looked promising...

A long haired bloke with a fiddle got up to do a trad tune,
then for the rest of the night was shunted forlornly aside,
while a couple of slick middle aged men in expensive jeans and shirts,
showing off extremly shiny top of the price range looking acoustic guitars,
played Beatles songs for the rest of the night...

The mrs had to stop me heckling belligerently as the cider gradually kicked in...
Yeah.. call me a purist...

We missed the last bus out of Clevedon, and had to fork out for a bloody costly taxi home..

Some wedding anniversary that was.....!!!

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 12:06 PM

"I don't know how many people come on here as people who are interested and start to read this stuff"
With respect Guest, these discussions/arguments tend to take place between people who are involved and have been for a while; no way of avoiding that, I'm afraid
Theer are plenty of examples of the music on line to make your own mind - he last few years has benefited from quite a few sites dedicated to traditional music (British Library, School of Scottish Studies, Irish Traditional Music Archive to name a few - I'm quite proud of our own collection on the Clare County Library, but I would be, wouldn't I?
Can't argue too much with Vic's list, but most of us cut our teeth on clubs run by volunteers who didn't get paid - they were a breakaway from the commercial scene that many people seem to have returned to
The clubs I was involved in seldom booked more than one guest a month and relied on dedicated residents to make evenings work
THat seems to be what is happening now in Ireland, the main difference being that the media has little to say on what is happening and Traditional music has won its place in the sun for what it is rather than what can be made from it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 12:13 PM

Reddit's r/ChoosingBeggars would love Jim. Maybe I could repost a few selected requirements there.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 12:18 PM

Its about 20 years since I had a brief project involvement with folk South West and Eddie Upton...

Is it still active to any extent...??

Just googled, but no website...???

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 12:36 PM

Haven't a clue what your talking about Jack - would love some argument rather than insults though
C'mmon fellers pretend it's Christmas - bring it on !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 12:52 PM

The way to find out what I'm talking about is to actually look at it.

Kinda like folk clubs in other countries - you have to go there to know what they're like.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 01:21 PM

"you have to go there to know what they're like."
Sigh.....
no I don't Jack - I've been told often enough that I have no right to expect to hear folk songs at a folk club
You're not unlike the people who have told me that I have no right to comment on British politics because I no longer live there

Just looked up Reddit whatsit and got this

"Hey people
Free shit from the admins? Sure, sign us the fuck up! Oh, it's for "coins". Maybe not then, I think we should at
least get a pencil or a t-shirt or something. After all, literally all of us have cancer and need life-saving reddit
merchandise to keep going.
Men, whatever, let's do it anyway.
Here are the categories that/u/jackson1442 came up with. So it's his fault for being unoriginal, and my fault for
being okay with that."

Decided I can't be arsed with such offensive insulting - I have no idea what relevance it has to this discussion other than allow to to insult and slip out of the back door
I used to think you were better than that - we live and learn - you are little better than the worst
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 01:29 PM

Jim when did you last visit a folk club in the uk and how many didd you visit in 2018, if you did not visit any then please stop pretending that you know what goes on in them in 2018, and since i have not pontificating about what happens in all of them i do not have to answerkennys politicians type question , my experience is based on regular visits to folk clubs and festivals in 2018 and is only limited to those i have visited, approx 20

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 02:12 PM

"Jim when did you last visit a folk club in the uk and how many didd you visit in 2018,"
Mind your own business Dick - it hasd nothing to do with the points I am making - the ones you are studiously avoiding

What has happened to the folk scene is public knowledge unless me and kenny and the many who have posted on this forum are telling lies - is that what you are suggesting

The fact that you and Jack and many others are forced to resort to personal insulting rather than open discussion says all that needs to be said about the present scene as far as I am concerned
I can go to the local schoolyard and watch the kids throwing insults at each other if that's what I am looking - intelligent discussion is harder to come by - here too, it would seem n
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 02:17 PM

Why does google [in Chrome] keep offering to tranlate this thread...!!!???

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 03:08 PM

Oh Wow Punkfolk rocker. Are you from Clevedon?

When I was 18, I was totally besotted and in love with a girl from Clevedon. But she was haughty proud and a mature woman of 22. I had a shrewd suspicion she avoided my company.

We weren't a good match really. She liked Mahler. I thought there was no bloody tune you could sing along to.

Her name was Jane Hirst. Do you know her?

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 04:05 PM

"Are you from Clevedon?"

Al - nah.. nowhere near wealthy enough...!!!

Clevedon is an exclusive exotic resort
located near the northern most coastal reaches of Scrumpyshire...

I grew up miles away where the modern factories used to tempt lowly rural agricultural workers
away to the bright electric lights and big town vice and depravity;
abandoning their jolly idyllic traditional folk singing lives,
breaking their backs ploughing the fields, harvesting, and sweating their bollocks off for the country gentlefolks...

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 06:35 PM

Yeh! you're right. It might have been my sweaty bollocks that didn't fit in with the gay social whirl of Clevedon.
She married a French bloke who looked a bit like Sacha Distel.
I think that's at the bottom of why I voted for Brexit.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,21st Century Primitive
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 07:09 PM

So, at least in part, the has descended into the usual thing of old men arguing about whether folk clubs are any good.

I don’t go to them very often, but I do know this. Two minutes from my house, I can attend a gathering of people in a room in a pub who sing mainly traditional songs, some accompanied, some unaccompanied. Some of the singers are fucking marvellous, some are a bit shit, most are somewhere in between. The choruses always sound fantastic. There are no guests, no residents, no hierarchy - it’s all about the singing and the songs. It’s not really a folk club, with all that implies, but something far more primal and essential than that: a small community of people gathering together to do what people do - bringing themselves and each other pleasure by singing together.

It’s good and it’s enough. The fact it doesn’t meet some arbitrary folk standard set by someone who is not part of it matters not a shit. It’s what we do, it’s what people have always done and in some ways, it’s a reclaiming of traditional songs from those who would tell us shit we really don’t need to know.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 08:01 PM

I suppose its true you don't need to know anything. Someone said its possible to go through life thinking the moon is made of green cheese,e one aspect of folk   but its not a great idea. I think the more you understand, the more tolerant you are of what the different singers at a folk club are trying to achieve.

And it can enhance your enjoyment - I have found.
In fact I think the real problem happens when someone thinks because they understand and appreciate one aspect of the folk music movement, another aspect is valueless.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,21st Century Primitive
Date: 14 Dec 18 - 03:03 AM

To make myself clear, because I realise I didnt above, the “stuff we don’t need to know” I was referring to was business about how this folk thing should be done properly.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 18 - 03:17 AM

"So, at least in part, the has descended into the usual thing of old men arguing about whether folk clubs are any good."
We owe our songs to "old men (and women) - without them, we wouldn't have have the decades of pleasure
and knowledge that we got from the gifts that they gave us.
I always thought it polite never to mention their age - another change that has taken place, it appears (they even have a label for it now - 'ageism)
These arguments have always taken place, as far back as 1300 years ago, when The Venerable Bede groused about having his sermons interrupted by cattlemen passing a harp around and singing lewd songs - they have been a part of the learning curve and have helped sustain the interest in the songs of the people.
If we can't argue about them here, we may as well forget them
Sorry, and all that.
All I know is that sometime in the 80s it became common to walk into a folk club and not hear a folk song
Thousand like me shared that experience and walked away from the scene
I'm delighted that some are still going - many hundreds of clubs disappeared, as did the magazines and the dozens of record labels
Dick mentions visiting 20 folk clubs last year - I could have visited that many in a week within a short driving instance of my home
That is no longer the case in the U.K. and that is what the scene lost

Some of us continued to work on folk song, singing where we could, amassing recorded examples of folk songs proper and making them available to those interested and ascertaining that was was available would survive for future generations to make use of.
I make no apologies for arguing about what I believe to be happening - sadly, the abuse and the reluctance to argue the facts only confirms my opinion that, if the British scene doesn't get its finger out the scene will die.

30 odd years ago, when I was visiting Ireland regularly to record songs, music lore and information, I believed that the few of us around would be the last
Thanks to old (and young) men and women arguing, proselyting, setting up schools, raising money.... to build a foundation for the survival of the traditional arts, Irish folk traditions have now been guaranteed a future for at least another century
Young people are flooding onto the scene to take up the music, and at last, the songs (slowly) - not as career opportunists but for the sheer love of it.
They don't sit around hurling "purist" and "finger-in-ear" abuses - they know what the music is ans they realist its importance
Rather than denigrating the old, they realise that it is they who helped keep the music alive - the present renaissance is based on young players and singers listening to and beinng taught by these crumblies
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 18 - 03:26 AM

To make myself clear - it was never about being done "properly" - it was and is about it being done proficiently - nobody is going to sit and listen to bad out-of-tune singing read from crib sheets
There have been enough complaints here of a hostility towards traditional unaccompanied songs in some clubs
Our own experience was when my partner, Pat, tried to arrange a tour for the last of our big traditional singers, Walter Pardon
The phoned a club organised who advertised itself as "folk" and when asked what Walter did, explained his performance, repertoire and importance
She was told, "We don't do that sort of thing - we're a folk club"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 14 Dec 18 - 03:42 AM

Just had a read through. I think I still agree with what I said only seven years ago but might be a bit less dismissive of those who go around printing labels.

Hi Jim.....

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Dec 18 - 03:43 AM

jim, if you have not visited any clubs in 2018 you cannot make a n up to date judgement, you have to qualify your statements with[ eg when i last visited a club in year whatever, and then be careful not to generalise from one particular example. that doers not make your criticism of one or maybe two clubs not valid, that is the essence of my point

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Dec 18 - 03:52 AM

I have [based on my limited experience] come across three or four good young floor singers. my opinion[based on only a few visits] is that the lowest standard is in singaround clubs, i noticed also contemporary singers singing with fake american accents, a few people shuffling through wads of paper before singing, but less people playing out of tune guitars and saying [it was in tune when i bought it, a phenomenon commom in the eighties]i did notice one singer who also performed well with a wordsheet

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 18 - 04:14 AM

"jim, if you have not visited any clubs in 2018 you cannot make a n up to date judgement, y"
We had a parrot who kept repeating the same thing over and over and over again - he didn't know what she was talking bout either
I've given you may answer to that Dick - that you offer no reply means you don't have one
Thank you for making my point

"who go around printing labels."
Labels tell us what tins to open - it stops us eating rice pudding out of soup bowls
If we don't name the songs we promote we may as ell just call our clubs song clubs and be done with all this "folk" crap
Don't know what you said seven years ago

Hi Some Bloke
Jim

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Dec 18 - 11:07 AM

I've given you may answer to that Dick - that you offer no reply means you don't have one
Thank you for making my point2
It is you that has not replied . how many uk folk clubs did you visit in 2018

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 18 - 11:14 AM

The point is Jim - whether its your idea of folk music, or the definition - its music that arose from the rise of the folk clubs, and wouldn't have been there, but for the folk clubs.


And he's right. We are olde, and we Do have a certain fondness for arguing.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Dec 18 - 11:45 AM

"We are olde, and we Do have a certain fondness for arguing."

There are pukka scientific/medical explanations for this common phenomena...


No point anyone being in denial.

Own our old belligerent miserable gitness..!!!

We've lived long enough to earn it...

Stand up proud and loud, shout out to the world...

"I'm a nasty old **** and I don't care...!!!!!!!"

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 18 - 12:30 PM

"its music that arose from the rise of the folk clubs,"
Of course it didn't Al
The term as applied to the ordinary people originated in the 1983s, the earliest sound recordings of English folk songs were made in 1908 and published collections were being made available throughout the 19th century - Sharp and his mates were ferreting away at the beginning of the 20th century
The Folk clubs were very much a latecomer on the scene and they were based on the result of a century or so's work.
Others supplied the raw material, the clubs dropped the ball   

Finished with you Dick - you have had my answer - your question is irrelevant and frankly, none of your business
The arguments that have gone on here, what can be put on as folk music, standards of performance, the massive exodus out of the scene (20 clubs in a year nationwide - are you serious?), the hostility towards unaccompanied singing.... all have been raised her by people - tell me they have not, or tell me the people who raised them were lying
If you can't, you really do have no case
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Dec 18 - 12:43 PM

Make's you think dunnit...

A Scrumpyshire ancestor of mine could just as likely have provided Sharp with a few songs...

Probably the ditties he was too bashful to publish to decent society...???

Collected outside a pub after closing time...???

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Dec 18 - 01:20 PM

Kenny asked me that same question i answered , i have nothing to hide/
Jim you clearly have not visired any folk clubs in the uk in 2018, otherwise you would tell us

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 18 - 01:30 PM

Cant remember visiring anywhere Dick - you clearly have no argument against what I have pointed out has gone wrong with the folk scene otherwise you would tell us
Game, set and match, I think
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 18 - 01:57 PM

Absolutely..the winner! Jim Carroll Undisputed champion of the Mudcat ...

It must be my age, I've forgotten what game we're playing.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 18 - 02:18 PM

Nah - you never win with Dick - he doesn't listen
A quick point
He boasts tohave visited 20 clubs and festivals
We're talking about clubs here so that number is diminished somewhat
Most of those he would have visited as a booked guest - hardly a position to see whether a club is working or not - such evenings are never representative of what goes on
When push comes to shove, I reckon that cuts is visits down somewhat - little more than the half dozen I visited over the last twelve months - a tiny fraction of the number of clubs left if Britain
Now what can that possibly say about the scene in general   
Jim

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 18 - 02:18 PM

Nah - you never win with Dick - he doesn't listen
A quick point
He boasts tohave visited 20 clubs and festivals
We're talking about clubs here so that number is diminished somewhat
Most of those he would have visited as a booked guest - hardly a position to see whether a club is working or not - such evenings are never representative of what goes on
When push comes to shove, I reckon that cuts is visits down somewhat - little more than the half dozen I visited over the last twelve months - a tiny fraction of the number of clubs left if Britain
Now what can that possibly say about the scene in general   
Jim

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Dec 18 - 02:45 PM

jim you have admitted that you have not been to a uk folk club in 2018,so stop passing judgements because you are not up to date with whats happening..why, because you havent been to any uk folk clubs for a long time, when were you last in a uk folk club. 3years go?

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 18 - 03:07 PM

"jim you have admitted that you have not been to a uk folk club in 2018"
I din't think you were taking any notice of what I wrote Dick - - unless you are calling me a liar go back and read what I wrote
Either way, it makes no difference how many I have visited - the ones you have make you not the slighted more qualified than I am
I don't need to visit any - I have heard your and others arguments at what passes for a folk club nowadays
If you are not going to contribute anything useful, get out of the way and make room for those who are
You are becoming a pest - to put it politely
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Dec 18 - 03:40 PM

you would make a good politician. answer the questions, if you have not visited a folk club in the uk for two years you are not imo qualified to talk about the uk folk club scene

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 18 - 05:27 PM

Oh come on Dick.. Since when have we examined peoples qualifications? Bleeding Christmas, for godsake...!

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 18 - 06:00 PM

It doesn't hurt either of us, that its his opinion.

We may think he's wrong. He may think he's right.

Everyone's still alive. Its not like he's strapping on a suicide vest. ordering summary executions. Handing out fatwahs.

He's just saying we're wrong and he's right. Perhaps he is right, What the fuck does it matter. It doesn't stop us practicing folk music how we believe in it.